Herr Kaisen of Bremen was also a member of the Senate. He is the present Senator in Bremen. organized, what was the structure of the Political Police at the time? different than all other branches. As I stated before, the manager was a police captain. That police branch was subdivided into two sub-divisions, and they were assigned the Roman number I, and the Roman number II. Of these two sub-divisions, the sub-division Roman number I dealt with the entire activity of the political parties. Subdivision Roman II were the Intelligence Sub-division, what is to say, for matters in connection with high treason. That sub-division was staffed almost entirely with members of the Protective Police branch - the Schultzpelizei. The Criminal investigation Department had also been assigned to this department dealing with executive matters, to take care of interrogations and investigations.
Q How long were you a member of the Political Police. How long were you avice there? whatsoever from 1930 to 1939.
Q Now we come to 1933, witness. How did the incidents of that year influence your office and agency?
A First of all, there was no change whatsoever. The structure and at the same time the personnel was kept up in the same way. All the members and high officials of that agency remained with one exception. Not one single man belonged to the Party, but there was a change in the Police Senator's Office. Of course, the new Police Senator was a member of the NSDAP. The Police Senator was at the same time in charge of legal matters, and his official title was "Senator for Internal Matters and Justice." For a short period officers of the SA and officers were transferred to our office as commissionars for special employee relations.
These men were nothing but Party members without a professional background. However, the Police Senator later removed them all at once, because they were not very proficient with their jobs.
Q With this activity in 1933, did any change occur then?
A No. From an organizational point of view, there was no change at all. Even in the field of competencies, it all remained the same. After a few weeks, I assume it was approximately in June or July 1933, the agency simply assigned a new title to this branch, and it was called the Gestapo, Secret State Police, in Bremen; that happened with all the other offices in the Reich; that was its only title. 1933?
A I was still in Subdivision I. In November 1933 the man in charge of the agency, Captain Kruse, was transferred back to the Schutzpelizei, the Protective Police. A political point of view might have been responsible for that transfer. At the same dates the Political Police became detached from the Police Senator's supervision that is from its independent position it had and for a short while it was subordinate to the Department of Criminal Police. It was under the supervision of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Criminal Police, however, changed quite soon, a short while after the Political Police again became independent as it had been before. Krebs took charge of the Political Police, and was at the end directly subordinate to the Police Senator. Again it was detached from the Criminal Police. The Criminal Police received a man especially for that purpose who was in charge of that Division. Krebs however, was not very reliable, and in 1934 he was entirely removed from the police service, or the police force. From that moment on I was made in charge of that agency. you became chief of Political Police in Bremen. The purpose for which I had all these questions answered in detail was to give this Tribunal a clear impression of the professional background of this defendant.
Actually at this present moment it would be necessary to speak about the development of the Police since 1933, from 1933 on. However, I believe I can consider these facts as well established now. However, I would like to point out that a decree in 1934 contained tasks of the Gestapo Secret State Police. Witness, what happened now to political opponents of the NSDAP, after the 30 January 1933, in Bremen?
concentration camp was established in the emmigration halls of the Nord-Deutscher Lloyed, which was a transport company, a liner company. At that time upon instigation by the Party and in coordination with the police senator, through the protection police or Schutzpolizei this camp was established. The man in charge of the main district was placed in charge of that matter. The establishment and guarding of that camp, however, was entrusted to Party-affiliated organizations. of the so-called concentration camp, which was also known as the Missler halls? camp, with the institution, nor did my chief have anything to do with it, and how far he was consulted in the establishment of that camp I cannot say.
Q Did you know anything about the conditions in that camp, Witness?
A I couldn't tell you from my own knowledge anything about conditions in that camp, as I never visited the camp. However, through a Party member who was working as a confidence man for me ever since 1933 I found out that a few attacks took place in that camp.
Q Did you do anything about it thereupon, Witness? senator through normal channels. The men immediately demanded an investigation, and if my recollection is correct, he wanted to have that investigation carried out by the public prosecutor in Bremen. That investigation proved the facts which instigated my investigation. The guards were immediately relieved of their duties and the police officer was immediately transferred as a punishment.
Q Did the camp as such remain in existence, Witness?
A The camp was dissolved towards the end of 1933. After Captain Kruse had left I suggested to the police senator the dissolution of the Camp myself, and I also asked him to use Christmas as an amnesty date for all the prisoners and to have them released.
My proposal was complied with, as I explicitly stated that I would assume responsibility for it, namely, that the public security would not be endangered in any way by the release of chase prisoners. questions. Witness, what was the reason that you joined the NSDAP?
A Two reasons were decisive for my having joined the NSDAP. I was thrown into the maelstrom by exactly the same enthusiasm which the entire German people had at the time, because I also at the time was of the conviction that after the years and years of sufferings, of fights, brothers against brothers, the National Socialist movement would indeed be in a good position to unite the German people and to help them lead the way. I also had an opportunity to observe with what idealism men and women of all circles and of all social levels, believing in being saved from the misery at the time, immediately volunteered for that organization and believed in that organization. This working for the Fatherland and for the freedom of all the citizens of that country, already, prior to 1933, had gained my sympathy. In spice of that at the time I had certain misgivings to join the Party, as the large number of converts provoked that criticism on the part of all veteran members of the Party; they called them opportunists and similar names. On the other hand, however, I recognized the necessity to actually show one's attitude openly for this new movement, and particularly in the special position which I was, I had to get my way through in the Party as a Party member who was on the same level as all the others. However, I would like to expressly point out that my inner enthusiasm was the main moving force for my having joined the Party, and it was only the second position that it was necessity that forced me to join the Party.
Q When did you actually join the Party, Witness? March, 1933, and on the 1st of May, 1933, I was accepted as a member of the Party.
Q Did you at any time join the other SS organization? say in 1935, and I received a corresponding rank. At the time I was a captain and I was kept as a captain in the SS, that is to say as an SS-Nauptsturmfuehrer.
Q I shall come back to that, Witness, at a later date. In this connection, as far as this correspondence of rank was concerned, after the membership in the NSDAP had finally come through, did your attitude and the official position which you held, change in any way? personal attitude. On the contrary, I was of the conviction that my inner attitude was in tune with the aims of the Party, and particularly since publications of all sorts pointed cut and gave proof of the reconstruction, of the tremendous reconstruction which was being carried out, and proved both the power as well as the purity of the Party.
Q However, you had seen, Witness, hadn't you, that after the seizure of the power certain excesses took place?
A Yes, indeed. I had seen those excesses. However, I considered these to be certain results which cannot be avoided in a revolution. Those things simply could not be avoided in this revolution which took place, and also it must be considered that prior to 1933 innumerable members of the Party, that is to say NSDAP members, were being beaten up by political opponents right in the middle of the street and two SA men were shot to death in Bremen. what your attitude was about the excesses which took place in the socalled concentration camp in Bremen. Now, let me interpolate a question. Did you yourself have anything to do with the arrest or with the placing of the commitment to the camp of those persons, did you have anything to do yourself with that? issioners for Special Tasks which had been assigned to those duties by the Party, and how far my former chief participated in this is beyond my knowledge.
However, one thing should be noted, that he couldn't possibly have done anything about it anyway at that time. Those were nothing but transition instances, and as I have stated before, the two commissioners who had been assigned to those duties were later on released by Police Senator Lauer after somebody convined him of the fact that they were absolutely not fit for that job. on the 1st of February, 1934, you became a police captain, is that correct?
Q Were you, at the same time, put in charge of that agency? With that I mean the Gestapo, the Secret State Police, in Bremen?
A No. When my chief, Captain Kruse, in 1933 returned to the normal service of the Schutzpolizei, I deputized for him, and I was placed in charge for only a short period of time. something for certain people who had been arrested. You told us about the dissolution of this Bremen concentration camp, and the results which it had, that all the prisoners were released, and that you took the responsibility for these people, you vouched for them. Can you tell us now in connection with this, your way of handling matters, can you give us any further examples?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If your Honor please, the Prosecution fails to see the relevancy of this line of questioning. I do think the witness has explained fully what he was doing and why he was doing it. I don't think another line of questioning can be started now. He has informed the Tribunal quite well what his point of view in this connection was.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you intend to establish by continuing this line of questioning?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Your Honor, I would like to state that the defendant, who since 1923 was with the police as an expert, and who later on was transferred to the RSHA, to the Reich Security Main Office, was not a member of the Gestapo.
I would like to prove that he is in no way connected with any crimes that are being charged against this organization, or the Gestapo. That is the reason why I would like to prove a few preliminary things which occurred; how the defendant accepted it, how he helped political opponents, and also how he had them released from custody against rules and regulations. I consider it, therefore, important to deal with those points briefly in direct examination. This, for me, is one of the most Important points of evidence concerning the third count of the indictment. I would like to proceed here in a historical chronological manner, and when we come to 1941, I would like to speak about the assignment of the defendant and the Russian campaign.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If your Honor please, counsel for the defense is certainly aware of the fact that the defendant is charged under Count No. III only for having been a member of the criminal organization after 1939 and not between 1933 to 1939. Therefore, the Prosecution still fails to see the relevancy of this line of questioning.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Your Honor, the answers to various questions will expplain why the defendant, since the first of September 1939, was still a member of that organization, namely, as I will prove later on, which is the fact that he remained in the same position as before, and he also acted against the assumption that he had anything to do with crimes here.
THE PRESIDENT: I presume that it is your intention to attempt to show that the defendant, via a logical development of affairs, arrived at the situation in which he found himself in 1941, is that your purpose?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Yes, yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We will allow you to proceed a little bit further along that line, and then, Mr. Hochwald, you may renew your objection if you still think he is going too far.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. ULMER: (Attorney for the Defendant Six): Your Honor, may I ask that for tomorrow Saturday, the 18th, and Monday, the 20th, that Defendant Six be excused from attendance so that I can prepare with him his statement on the witness stand?
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow, Saturday, and Monday.
DR. ULMER: Thank you.
DR. STUEBINGER (For the Defendant Jost): Your Honor, as deputy for Dr. Alfred Schwarz, I wish to make an application that Defendant Jost be excused for tomorrow from participating so that his defense may be prepared. I also ask to consider that the prison personnel be informed about this so that the defendant will not be brought here by mistake as has happened repeatedly.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I will instruct the Marshal to make note of the fact that the Defendant Jost is not to be brought to the court house tomorrow, and, for the purposes of the record, the Defendant Jost will be excused from attendance tomorrow. Naturally, it is understood that he will be ready on Monday to come into court.
DR. STUEBINGER: Your Honor, I shall inform Dr.Schwarz of this.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, the Prosecution has been informed -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Horlick Hochwald.
MR. HORLICK Hochwald: If the Tribunal please, the Prosecution has been informed that after the case of the Defendant Schulz , the case of the Defendant Jost will be put on.
THE PRESIDENT: That is right.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: But unfortunately, we have no information as who is to take the stand and whose case is to be discussed after Jost's case. The Prosecution of course would like to know who will take the stand afterwards.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought that I made it clear, but now so that everyone will be informed, the order will be as follows: At the present time we are hearing the case of Schulz. Following Schulz, we will hear the case of Jost. Following Jost, we will hear the case of Six, and then proceed in accordance with the seating arrangement of the defendants. Rasch is being skipped for the present, until we learn something more about his physical condition.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. DURCHHOLZ (Attorney for the Defendant Schulz): Your Honor, Defendant Schulz, while working with the police in Bremen and other cities had the opportunity to show his political attitude and his views as to the political occurrences, and to show his attitude toward his political opponents. It was my intention to let the witness describe a few cases here, however, having a few affidavits at my disposal, I shall submit these occurrences to the Tribunal in the form of affidavits and for that reason I limit myself to allowing the witness describe only a few incidents.
THE PRESIDENT: That is entirely agreeable to the Tribunal.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: The defendant repeatedly had the opportunity while working with the police to be in contact with Jews. Therefore, I consider it important that the defendant now may make some explanation on that point.
BY DR. DURCHHOLZ: towards the Jews?
Q If "Anti-Semitic" means hatred and destruction I have never been "Anti-Semitic." My so-called "Anti-Semitic" attitude only went to that extent as the immoral influence of the Jews which I saw in my native country, in policy, economics, and culture, which had great power here and which limited the development of our own forces and put them aside, and I wanted the influence of the Jews to be reduced to a normal level. The individual Jew meant exactly the same to me as any other follow human being. If a Jew was an honorable man, his race or religious opinions were of no interest to me. towards the Jewish progroms in 1938? November 1938, I was in Munich. I took the next train back to Bremen. Here I found that the Anti-Jewish demonstrations had been performed by the SA in Bremen. Later, I realized that compared to the occurrences in other cities the extent in Bremen was not quite so bad. In spite of this, a few cases of theft had occurred. Immediately I gave instructions to find out who had done it; and in agreement with the Criminal Police, I ordered the stolen items to be returned to their rightful owners. Here I succeeded in nearly all cases, especially in the one concerning the Jewish Jeweler Fischbein to whom I was able to return his entire property which had been stolen from him, although the SA strongly opposed to this measure. Two SA men who had killed an elderly Jewish couple were found by my agency. They were arrested and were reported; as the proceedings which recently took place in Bremen shows, this report was handed on to the Prosecution, where - according to investigation - the proceedings were stopped by order of higher authorities.
My views as to the events of the 8th of November 1938, I expressed during an official discussion where all members of my office took part, clearly and frankly describing them as to be unworthy of the German people. I clearly recollect two incidents where two young Jewesses owing to an affidavit given by their mothers before a lawyer were said to have originated illigimately. I had this certified officially, so giving them an opportunity to enter it in to the files of the register office. After that they were no longer considered full blooded Jews. I adopted this attitude, because I admired the sacrifice which mothers male here. when I now mention the name of Dr. Rosenack? Herr Dr. Rosenack would no doubt be in a position to testify. Professor Rosenack was an attorney in Bremen, he was the son of a Jewish Rabby. For many years, from 1934 until he emigrated to the States, I think in 1937 or 1938 I discussed all affairs of the Jewish population in Bremen with him. He negotiated with me as an equal partner. I esteemed him greatly as a human being, because of his bravery I was promoted lieutenant during World War I. He had been wounded and had the Iron Cross distinction. Before he emigrated to the States, he visited me and thanked me for my loyal attitude towards his follow Jews.
He asked me to look after the interests of the Jews after he had left. As long as I was in Bremen I kept my word to him. That was up to the year 1939. The address of Dr. Rosenack has not been determined definitely but I believe he is living in New York.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: As soon as I get the translations I shall submit a great number of affidavits by the witnesses mentioned here about these and other occurrences, and I shall introduce them to the Tribunal.
Q (By Dr. Durchholz) Witness, will you please tell the Tribunal when, and in what manner, you had official and private contact with the SS. formalities I was, according to my rank as captain, drafted into the SS as a Hauptsturmfuehrer. The document stating this fact is contained in my personal files, which without exception I handed out to the CIC in Salzburg in the year 1945. This original document as others concerning my promotions, unfortunately, I cannot submit here because when my personal files were returned to me in Nuernberg last year they had already been taken out, but I presume that these papers are in the files of some American agency.
Q Why were you promoted in the SS at that time? with my promotion as lieutenant of the police, or rather, as official, as it was done automatically with everyone throughout the Police Force. Bremen, Where did you go to after that? transferred from Bremen and was put in charge of the State police agency in Reichenberg. I still want to mention that before my transfer to Reichenberg I was transferred to Graz for about 8 weeks in spring of 1938, for about 6 weeks to Aussig, when our troops occupied the Sudeten area, and in to fall of 1938 for about 8 weeks to Olmuetz.
Q What activity did you have in Graz? What was your work there? of Austria, in March 1938. It was my job to take care of the security there and to set up a state police office in Graz according to Reich principles..
DR. DURCHHOLZ: May I point out to the High Tribunal, that in connection with the defendants activity in Graz where he particularly looked after political persecutees, I have a number of affidavits which I shall submit where, for example, the Archbishop there was released through him, as wall as a number of college professors and a man who was a Minister then an is a Minister now Were released through the defendant.
Q ( By Dr. Durchholz) Witness, after Graz you returned to Bremen? remained there until the fall of 1938. At that time I received the order to take over charge of an Einsatzkommando in the Sudeten area.
Q You just used this expression "Einsatzkommando." You were drafted to an Einsatzkommando when the Sudeten area was occupied, were you not? Could this Einsatzkommando perhaps be compared with the Einsatzkommandos of 1941 in Russia, which will be discussed later on? Or did it mean something different? same as the Einsatzkommando and the Einsatzgroups set up in Russia.
At that time there were already an Einsatzgruppe which conducted a Commando's marching into an area which it, and the Einsatzkommandos who were intended for certain areas. The only difference between them was that they were not strictly subordinated to the military commanders and, as it should be, they were merely meant for police tasks. In spite of this, even at that time the Einsatzkommandos were subordinate to military commanders during army operations to such an extent as the military commander also had the executive power. area, were you ordered back to Bremen - and then you again took part in the occupation of Czechoslovakia and joined the Einsatzkommando there?
A Yes. The development was the same again, when I arrived in Olmuetz nobody had been arrested yet. The Einsatzkommando merely were given a search book according to which certain persons who had proved to endanger the security had been arrested - persons who had exposed themselves. I still remember that most of them were formerly ethnic Germans who, when Hitler had taken over in 1933, had emigrated and developed an anti-German activity in Czechoslovakia. There were also a few Czech citizens among them -- for example, remember that in this list for arrests the police director for Olmuetz, Dr. Bender, had been intended to be arrested as well. Before I carried out this order, however, I got myself some information on how he did his duty, and in particular whether he worked against Germany, and about his attitude about racial Germans within his region. Since I did not hear anything to that effect, not even from racial Germans, and nobody was against this man, I did not carry out this order for arrest. I discussed the matter personally with Dr. Bender very frankly, and when he gave me his word of honor not to escape, I fulfilled his request to let him go to Prague in order to settle his private affairs there.
This actually happened, and Dr. Bender, as long as I was in Olmuetz, was completely a free man. proceed against Jews in particular?
A No. There was no such order, "Neither for my activity in Austria, nor in the Sudeten region, nor in Czechoslovakia - that is the later Protectorate - were there ordered any measures against the Jewish population. assignment? was given in the year 1941; I did not take part in any other assignment.
Q But these were actual peacetime assignments. After 1939 when assignments to Poland, France, Holland, Norway, and so forth, took place, did you take part in this, too? other countries during the war. As I said already, merely for the year 1941 I was in the Russian campaign. to the State police office in Reichenberg, and from here you were sent to Hamburg? started for you, did it not? Will you please state something briefly to that affect? sent to Hamburg as Commissar Inspector for the corps area district 10.
This is a new time, a new sphere in my work in the Security Police because after that time I left the executive. in the Security Police means? Ohlendorf already has given ample explanation on that point. The official tasks of an inspector were merely of an inspectional character. He had to supervise organisational and personnel matters, to visit local offices and to see if everything was conducted in the proper manner, and to straighten out differences between the Police and the Party, if necessary, to settle them, and finally, the entire Security police was to be represented by him. My main task I saw in looking after my men, giving great importance to their training, in order to avoid by all means that the standard became lower by the influence of the war.
Q Did the inspector have factual powers? Did he have any authority to give orders? orders. He had no executive power.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: About the witness activity in Hamburg I shall also submit affidavits by persons who worked together with him and whom he met there somehow else and whom he helped there.
Q (By Dr. Durchholz) Witness -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I presume you are gathering those affidavits as you go along, and as quickly as you can. You are not waiting until the very end to get them?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. DURCHHOLZ: activity in Berlin in March of 1941. In what capacity?
Q That is the Group which was competent in the RSHA?
A Yes, in the RSHA. That is the Group which was competent for training and education, and, normally also, for the affairs of young members to join the staff, The latter question, of course, during the war was of hardly any importance, While being in charge of Group I-B at the same time I was put in charge of the Fuehrer School -- school for leaders. I simultaneously performed both tasks at the school house in Berlin/Charlottenburg. The schools were very important because they were competent for the passing of examinations opening careers of officials of intermediate and higher and leading positions. There were two official schools: one sub-leader school in Fuerstenberg, and a school for leaders in Charlottenburg. In Charlottenburg detectives were trained for the criminal police and for the State police, These schools were looked after by Group I-B, who conducted them. They were the ones responsible for the RSHA. The entire plan was worked out here, and also the material was put together and handed on to the schools. In that way it was achieved that the schools followed a definite plan for the individual classes. They had the same means for teaching, and all those participating in the training courses, therefore, always were instructed according to the same principles throughout. Owing to the development of the war the training for the agencies themselves was no longer of so high a standard because a number of the best experts, owing to the distribution, had been taken away from the schools or did not find sufficient time, to take care of this training.
For that reason it was made a duty of the schools, in spite -- or rather I should say, just because of the war, that the export training be more thorough and even more concentrated. In order to achieve this aim I avoided all that was unnecessary. We did not do as much sports, and only kept up so much as was necessary to keep our pupils physically fit. My military training was discontinued entirely. In the same way, My instruction courses, for the State police and, the criminal police who had been conducted separately until this, were to be joined together. The schooling of both departments was therefore conducted together in favor of the members of the state police who got a good training in criminology that way.
Q An intermediate question, please. Were these schools set up by the Nazis after 1933, or had they existed oven before? not founded by the Nazi state but the continuation and development of an institution already in existence.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you, That is enough.
Q (By Dr. Durchholz) Were the teachers in these schools political functionaries and officials of the NSDAP? member of the NSDAP, was not necessary, and not required. The only thing that was required was the expert knowledge, the personal attitude and the professional skill. Most of the teachers were members of the criminal police because they had the best expert training.
Q The last question about these schools for leaders? How long did such a training course take?
war, took 9 months,
Q You were a commander of this school for leaders, then? And after that, you were assigned to go to Russia?
Q Now I come to your assignment in Russia. How, and when, did you receive the order for your assignment in Russia in 1941? in charge of the school of leaders and Group leader of I B. At the time I was SS-Standartenfuehrer and colonel in the police. About May of 1941 the Chief of Office I, Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach, gave me the order that the school should be prepared to train people for future members for the executive staff. He based this measure on the fact that there were too few leaders. This shortage came about because meanwhile France had been occupied, and so had Poland and Belgium. Soon after that the order came that the members of this training course should be transferred to Praetsch where, at the time, the school for sub-leaders of the Security Police was still in existence. Approximately at the same time, only a few days later, did I receive the order according to which I was to be put in charge of an Einsatzkommando myself. The aim for the Einsatzkommando was not made known at the time. I remember distinctly that it was often assumed that we were going to attack England. gathered in Praetsch of all places? because there a school was available, and also in the surroundings there were suitable rooms -- for example, inns and other localities.