Dutchman, and I never demanded from any member of the population that they should become National Socialists; I never forced any of then to become members of the Party, nor did I ever make that a condition for exercising the general rights and privileges which every Dutchman was entitled to.
Incidentally, I particularly referred to that in my speech. I said: "I shall always act as a National Socialist. But that does not mean that I shall force National Socialism on to even one single person. National Socialism is a matter of inner conviction. There are two groups of organizations. One is the group of political organizations in connection with which I attach importance to the demand that each and every member be led to National Socialism. These are absolutely voluntary organizations. Then there are the vocational organizations, in connection with which it is immaterial which outlook the individual might have, as long as he fulfills his task in his profession."
Q Why and when did you dissolve the political parties in Holland? of the Eastern campaign. At that time all the political parties, with their exception of the National Socialists, adopted an active hostile attitude otwards the occupation forces. In the interests of the occupation forces, that could no longer be tolerated. half I permitted those parties to continue their work. which parties, after all, weren't any less hostile to the National Socialists than National Socialism today is with regard todemocratic parties. privileged it? concerned; it is incorrect as far as the state sector was concerned. alleged as an accusation against me. That was an advisory body with a National Socialist attitude, attached to my administration. It was not al lowed to exercise any influence on the Dutch administration, because any such attempts were always, really, stopped by me.
Q Didn't you, nevertheless, bring individual members of the NSDAP, certainly, into state positions? to find officials on whom I could rely. They were not under orders from the Party, however; on the contrary, in most cases there developed a certain difference between these people and the heads of the Party. government in the Netherlands, as had been done in Norway, for instance. That was so particularly because certain Dutch gentlemen, such as General Secretary Van Damm, President Van Lohen of the Supreme Court, and the President of the Cultural Committee, Professor Schreide, urged me to realize the incorrectness of such measures. about an exploitation policy. Is that true?
in fact, occur. I observed it, and I stated the fact publicly. I regretted this occurrence, but I could not stop it. The German occupation forces had to introduce anumber of measures which meant a certain pressure on the Dutch people, and it discredited our Netherlands friends. that you had coordinated all cultural institutions with the Reich?
A Generally speaking, that accusation is partly correct. With the prohibition of political parties, most of the organizations of trade or profession became impossible, since right down to the chessplayers' club, everybody in the Netherlands organized. It was in the interests of the occupation forces that I had to create new organizations of supervision. Maybe it was lack of imagination, but somehow these organizations were very similar to their original predecessors in the Reich. But I only created these organizations to carry out supervision, and never did I ask them to cooperate politically. I not only made the carrying on of a profession go along these lines; I did not even introduce compulsory membership fees.
I admit that we made two mistakes, or errors of judgment: First of all, we had the mistaken impression that our rule applying to the occupation forces was the right, and at least the better, one; and secondly, that in an occupied country, an independent political will can develop. There our policy failed.
Q Whatinstitutions did you introduce, in consequence? and one for agriculture. Then there was a workers' front, but that was a voluntary organization. Members could leave it without any disadvantageous conseqences, if they wanted to. that you attempted Germanization. What do you have to say about that?
A First of all, I have to explain something clearly. In the English, you say "Germany", and in the Russian you say "Germanski." Both mean "German" (Deutsch). And when we spoke of "Germanization", then we did not mean "making them into Germans"; we meant a political and cultural collecting of a so-called German group, giving them equal rights. That we did act in that manner is something I stated in a speech, Document 103:
"Why do the Germans interfere with everything in the Netherlands?"
THE PRESIDENT: What page is that on?
DR. STEINBAUER: It is U.S.A. 708, which has been presented as a book.
THE PRESIDENT: Has it got a PS number?
DR. STEINBAUER: Its PS number or is 3430. It has been made U.S.A. Exhibit 708. It is a book entitled "Four Years of the Netherlands", and it contains a collection of speeches made by the witness, each one of which has been used by the prosecution. The witness is now replying.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: "There are moments of tension where there is no longer any dividing line between something which is important to the war effort and in the interests of the military, and something which is private and a matter for the civilians." utilized for, or against, the occupation forces, and that,therefore, I had to exercise control over them. BY DR. STEINBAUER: administration in the interests of the party? It had a different sphere of activities which, with reference to the policies of the Dutch National Socialist party supported that in every respect. It did not have any particular interest or return, and that is the important point.
Q Now, let us turn to the administration proper. Which organizations were there in the Netherlands? the armed forces' commander. Then the police had an independent sector. The commander of the armed forces had the right to intervene, and beginning with July, 1944, some of the executive powers were transferred to him. SS and police leader, who, at Himmler's suggestion, was always appointed by the Fuehrer without my being asked. The police reserved to themselves the right to investigate; that is to say, if I gave then a task, they would investigate whether the task could he coordinated with their instructions which Himmler gave directly to the Higher SS and police leader.
plenipotentiary for labor and the armament ministry. Rosenberg, and then there is Speer?
A Yes, there was the armament minister, Speer. Then there were certain rather smaller individual tasks which were being carried out. orders on behalf of Reich departments?
A No; I was not an ordinary official. I was responsible to the Reich in the civilian sector. Perhaps in the first months, departments in Berlin might have worked better by by-passing me. But I then centralized the administration in such a way under my supervision that nothing occurred in the civilian sector which I had not previously agreed to. That was especially recognized by the Fuehrer on one occasion. I want to say that you must not draw any corresponding conclusions with reference to other occupied territories. I am perfectly convinced that in the Eastern territories and in the government in general, the same centralization did not exist.
Q What possibilities did you have to establish an administration? from the loading departments in the Reich. I investigated the demand, together with my officials in consultation with the departments of the Netherlands, We would then submit counter-proposals, which we thought could be expected from the Dutch. And if the Reich still demanded more, then we made efforts not to exceed the possible. Until 1043, all requests were being carried out by the Dutch authorities themselves. I did not allow my departments to submit such demands until after that time, because then the demands became so enormous that I could no longer expect the Dutch authorities to make them.
Q I come back to the question of police for a moment. As you said, it came directly under Himmler?
A The possibilites I had were two: One, considering that the Queen of the Netherlands and the government had gone to London, would have enabled me to nominate a new Dutch government, as had been done in Norway; or, I had to conduct the administration of the country myself. I decided on the second solution. in existence? How did you organize it? the butch police were under my orders; but it was a matter of course that the supervision of the Dutch police was transferred to the Higher SS and Police Leader by me. In his capacity as my General Commissioner for the security system, the Dutch police were divided into either three or four sectors. I think that it can be explained with the interests of the occupational powers that we then coordinated it from thepoint of view of organization.
Q What was the Land Guard of Home Guard? Socialists. In 1943 there were serious cases of terror against National Socialists, and there were very cruel murders. The danger of counterterror existed, of which we heard. In fact, there were several such cases. Consequently, I organized this land Guard, which had the order to act as auxiliary police, with corresponding discipline, and which controlled the pier during the hours of darkness, guarded railways, and carried but such tasks as those. The result was that these acts of terror did almost entirely cease, and until the middle of '44, no further difficulties of that type occurred.
Q Mr. Witness, we now come to a most important chapter.
A May I just for a moment refer to the Document 101? This document has been held against me by the prosecution-
THE PRESIDENT: Is 101 the right designation?
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, the speeches which the Defendant is quoting have been sent down by me to be multigraphed. Although they are already before the Tribunal, unfortunately the translation department did not quite catch up and therefore it is not yetavailable, but I hope to have them by the morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Hasn't it got a PS number of any other designation?
DR. STEINBAUER: It is almost the same bock, USA 708. The prosecution has only quoted individual sentences there.
THE PRESIDENT: I see.
THE WITNESS: The prosecution has quoted Page 167. On the 1st of August '43, I delivered a speech announcing special measures which would bring difficulties and restrictions to the Dutch, and the prosecution believes that shootings which took place later are connected therewith. That is an error. The restrictions which I am mentioning in that speech were merely orders prohibiting Dutch people to leave their own provinces, so that terrorists from the Northwest could not go to the East. As this happened during the time of the holidays, this meant something awful to the Dutch.
Q Now I come to the next question. Did you change the existing organization of the lower courts? Legislation in the Netherlands had a very high standard. Only on two occasions did I introduce supplementation. The Dutch judges showed little understanding for the economic situation. For instance, on the one occasion a group of black market butchers, which had killed large numbers of cattle and introduced them into the black market, were fined two hundred guilders; so I introduced special economic judges, Lutchmen, who had more understanding of these economic necessities. But apart from that, the legal situation was left untouched. Of course, we also introduced our German courts, as every occupational force does. staying in the Netherlands, and then we had the police courts; is that right? occupation forces were dealt with by these courts. thousand executions.
A That is perfectly untrue. If I count everything which the German courts, Police courts, and military courts had pronounced in the way of death sentences which wereactually carried out, and if I add to that the cases where there were clashed with the executive powers on theoccasions where Dutchmen lost their lives, then in accordance to the documents from the Higher SS and Police Leader giving those figures until themiddle of 1944, it amounts to less than eight hundred cases during four years, which means less than a bombing attack on the town of Njemegen.
The shootings came afterwards. a special repreive department?
Q In this connection, I want to refer to Document No. 75 in my Document Book, which is on Page 190. This is an affidavit from the Court Councilor, Rudolf Fritsch, Judge in the Court of Appeals in Berlin, who was the reprieve expert for the Reich Commissioner. I want to quote from this document and I refer to the second paragraph on Page 3:
"In performing his right of clemency the Reich Commissioner proceeded from the principle that this was one of the most distinguished rights of the head of A state and that it was especially suitable for creating a good and close relationship between the Germans and the Dutch. Therefore, in the beginning he himself made the decision in all cases on the basis of case reports submitted to him and a clemency proposal of the clemency division. After about two to three months he delegated internally the exercise of the right of clemency to the chief of the clemency division with the following exceptions: 1) cancellations of proceedings, 2) decisions in case ofdeath sentences; (3) decision in fundamental questions, 4) decision in individual cases, etc. was executed where the clemency question was not examined officially even if a petition for clemency had not been made."
Then I come to page 5, the last paragraph:
"Since the cooperation with the Dutch authorities proved that they could be trusted, the Reich Commissioner gradually delegated in the main the right of clemency to the Dutch minister of justice. From the great amount of mail which came in and which did not concern clemency natters only, I repeatedly saw that police actions had been staged by the Gestapo by which the regular administration of justice was eliminated or was to be eliminated. In such cases I collected material and used it to take action in order to place the persons involved before regular courts for judgment of their cases. Indeed, I succeeded with such action. This was proof to me that the Reich Commissioner was an opponent of the Gestapo's wild police methods and an adherent to the regular administration of justice." the question regarding finance.
A Yes, but the Fuehrer's order excluding courts is of importance.
Q Which order was that?
A That is the decisive order. After the strike at Amsterdam, I had proposed court martial procedure. That isn't an invention of recent times; it is the summary court procedure in the case of special emergencies, such as legislation of every country contains.
Courts martial had special conditions. First of all, a regular judge had to be a member. Secondly, defendants' counsel were foreseen, who could be Dutch. Thirdly, evidence had to be collected in the proper manner, and if the question of guilt was not clearly proved, then the case had to go before the ordinary courts. occasion of the general strike in May 1943. The numerous shootings later on cannot be traced back to these courts martial. They had been provided for the case of a special emergency if Dutch territory once more became operationa known from an order from the OKW. I refer to PS-1155 -- no, I beg your pardon I don't think I am right. It is PS-835.
civilians in occupied territories who were guilty of sabotage or terror actions were to be handed over to the Security Police. The Higher SS and Police Leader and I objected to that order, since we realized what damaging effects it would have in The Netherlands, since the Dutch would only be pressed into illegal organizations through the appearance of such an order. period of over six stocks. This caused a severe reprimand by Himmler, and from that moment the Dutch who had been arrested for sabotage or illegal activities had to be judged under his own jurisdiction, and in certain cases, were shot. That is the cause of numerous shootings, but I do not believe that there were 4,000. be most exact when carrying out that order, and there were no reports to me about individual cases. I had the impression that there were perhaps 600 to 700.
A That is correct. It certainly didn't come under my influence, nor was I competent for it. But if, at that time, I gave the Security Police orders that they should pursue some illegal organization in some place or other, then I had to realize that one or the other Dutchman who would be found out to be a leader of such a movement would be shot by the police without the court or I being able to investigate the case. But then I couldn't fore* the privileges with which I could safeguard the security of the occupational powers merely because of that Fuehrer order.
Q I now come to the chapter of finance. A document has been presente here where a certain Mr. Tripp announces his resignation. Who was he? the currency bank. He was the General Secretary for Finance. I think if you list the most outstanding bending experts of the world, then you will also have to mention Mr. Tripp. He has great personality and he is one of those men who are today described as Dutch genius.
Q He was also General Secretary for Finance, wasn't he?
A Yes. Until March 1941 he was the General Secretory for Finance. would demand from none of them that he should do something which he could not assume responsibility for in his conscience. If he thought that here was something he couldn't do, then he could resign without suffering any disadvantages. I said that all I demanded was for him to carry out my orders loyally as long as he remained in office.
Until March 1941 Mr. Tripp remained in office, and then he resigned because there was something he didn't wish to carry out, and he suffered no disadvantages.
Q Who was his successor?
A Let me say first of all that what Mr. Tripp carried out until March 1941 is, in my opinion, justifiable in every respect. Otherwise, he most certainly would not have done it.
His successor was Rose von Tonningen. Tonningen was a League of Nations Commissioner in Austria who had had tasks similar to those I gave him in The Netherlands.
Q What about the occupation costs? Mr. Tripp that I should receive 3 million guilders per month. Then there were 20 million in fines in addition to that. During the first three years, I saved 60 million guilders which remained in The Netherlands as a special donation. check them. The armed forces put in their demands to the Minister of Finance, and I then received orders to place them at their disposal. During 1941, the Reich collected indirect occupation costs. The point of view was adopted that not only the costs which were incurred in The Netherlands direct were to be collected, but that the costs of preparations in the Reich should be collected. Fifty million marks per month were demanded, partly in gold.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean marks or do you mean guilders?
THE WITNESS: Marks, 50 million marks. Later on, that payment was celled voluntary eastern assistance for political reasons, But of course that wasn't so.
Later on, the Reich demanded an increase to 100 million, but I refused. BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Mr. Tripp retired as General Secretary for Finance because the foreign currency bann which still existed at the time between Germany and The Netherlands was lifted.
A Yes, that is correct. I had an application through my administration that the business traffic between the Reich and The Netherlands should be intensified, and that this foreign currency bann should be lifted to the extent that without using the currency bank guilders could be exchanged for marks and vice versa. Mr. Tripp, but it was subject to the control of currency banks, that is to say, the Netherlands banks as well. Mr. Tripp raised objections, and I passed the matter on to Berlin. Berlin decided that it was to be carried out, and Mr. Tripp resigned. and I published the decree.
I want to say that the president of the Reichsbank, Mr. Funk, was against this procedure, and I can quote as an explanation that the effects at that time were not so catastrophic as they turned out later. At that time, The Netherlandshad been completely cut off; the Reich had reached the climax of its power, and it was to be expected that the mark would be the leading currency in Europe, with which rate the guilder would have had similar ranking Netherlands exceeded the exports from The Netherlandsinto the Reich. Reichsminister Funk always had the view that these were genuine debts, so that the cost of a 41/2 billion golden guilder debt in the event of a different outcome of the war would have had to be paid back to The Netherlands. Finance, Dr. Fischboeck, who arranged this matter contrary to the wishes of the president.
A I don't know whether the proposals came from Fischboeck only. I presume that he must have talked to other officials. But anyway, he put them to me. fines contrary to international law, money fines. individual perpetrations. The large collective fine of 18 millions was imposed in connection with the general strikes at Amsterdam, Arnheim, and Hilversden, in which the entire population had participated. ascertained as being perpetrators.
Q Can you give us any practical examples?
A I think witness Schwebel will be able to tell you that. There were towns in the South of Holland where that sort of thing has happened. for the hostage camp in Michelgestell. the Michelgestell hostage camp. It wasn't a hostage camp in the full sense of the Word. The situation was that Dutchmen who proved to be members of resistance movements were taken into custody by me. The camp at Michelgestell is not a prison because I have visited it and the inmates of the camp were playing golf. They had leave, in the case of compassionate or other matters, and not a single one was ever shot. I think the majority of the Netherland. Ministers of today were at Michelgestell. It was a sort of protective custody so that they were to be temporarily removed from their anti-German activities.
Q Furthermore, Mr. Witness, you also prohibited the reading of religious lessons, and you were supposed to have admitted Catholic and Protestant preachers to concentration camps. which happened because it was obviously in opposition to the measures of the occupational forces and it was inciting disobedience. That was one individual case, and thereafter it did not happen again. In fact, I even interfered and cancelled the prohibition issued by the police and as a result I was criticized. No priests were sent to concentration camps by me. To the contrary, at the beginning of 1933 and after they had been reported to me, I received a list from the Security Police which contained the names of prisoner who were in concentration camps. The total was around 45 or 50. 3 or 4 of them bore the remark that they had died in concentration camps. Approximately one-third were shown to me and on the strength of the evidence I demanded their release. Another third should be investigated, I demanded during the following six months, and as far as the last third was concerned, I could not make such an application without violating my own responsibility towards the Reich.
There were also other reprisal hostages, and when the Netherlands come into the war, the Germans in Dutch-India were taken into prison and were mistreated. The Reich demanded that 3,000 Dutchmen were to be arrested. The Security Police arrested 800 and took them to Buchenwald. urge the authorities of these hostages until they were returned. They were then accommodated in a manner Which can no longer be described as prison. They were given leave, and whenever possible, I released then. In the end, I had less than 100.
Q Mr. Witness, prayers in Church, or prayers for the Queen, were supposed to be prohibited by you.
A That is incorrect. The prayers in the Dutch churches were obvious demonstrations, as is understandable, and they were prayers for the Queen of the Netherlands. There were prayers, at that time, for the Reich Commissioner so that he could be enlightened. But I found nothing wrong with these prayers which would cause me to prohibit them. In 1 or 2 cases, some subordinate authority might have acted and in which I have not concurred been particularly cruel, and that without legal proceedings, you had had a large number of people shot. What do you have to say to that? shot without there being any connection between the shooting and the necessary legal process. This occurred in August, 1942, and the case has already been mentioned in this courtroom. This case was carried out strictly under the so-called "Hostage Law" which has been quoted here. The had been an attack against an Armed forces transport, and 15 or 20 hostages were demanded and were to be shot, and I think the OKH made that demand through the Commander of the Armed Forces and the Higher SS and Police Loader at the lists which had been submitted to me by other departments. That list, has been read out here and I noticed something about that list. The Higher SS and Police Loader stated that the list was to be compiled in keeping with the instructions that existed, and that this attack could be traced to the political nameson the right, those of the opposition and of the resistance, and not to those on the left, therefore no workers were to be shot.
I only exercised influence insofar as I caused the Higher SS and Police Leaders to exclude fathers with several children from that list.
Q Mr. Witness, what do you know, in detail, about the shooting when the camp at Vught was closed? South of the Netherlands, I had so much work to do to keep up the good order in my territory, that I could not concern myself in detail with that camp at Vught which was under the police. The Higher SS and Police Leader usually informed me that the most important political prisoners, numbering about 200, were to be transferred to the Reich, and that the list of several implicated people was to be released. Ordinary criminals were to be placed under the command of the Dutch Police officer, and to be handed over to the Canadians. It was only here that I heard that there were cases of shooting, and the only explanation I have is that at the last minute, the Reich prohibited the transporting of these people to the Reich and gave the order to shoot them. I do not believe that the figure can be 600, because Witness Kollpuss has stated that there were 130 to 150, but even at that I think it is a high figure. on the SS and Police Leader Rauter? originated from the resistance movement and it was carried out with British weapons.
Q What do you know about the case Putten?
A Excuse me, I have not finished my previous statement. Himmler, at that time, demanded the shooting of 500 hostages. Rauter refused and informe me that there were a number of Dutchmen in the prison who were to be shot in accordance with the Fuehrer's order because they had been convicted of other actions of sabotage. He had hesitated, he said, since the number was rather large, but now he could not hesitate any longer.
He could not give me the actual figure. In that situation, I could not, in my opinion, prevent him from carrying out the order, because we had to control the resistance movement with whatever means we had at our disposal. That movement was started by the Dutch in London and it presented a very serious hindrance to the German occupational forces. in Apeldorp, and that appeared to be a very high figure to me, but Dr. Schoengart told me that Apeldorp had been the center of many resistance movements.
Q Finally, I want to ask you, what do you know about the case Put ten?
A In Putten there was an attack on German officers. Three were murdered, The entire case happened to the armed forces, and I know that retaliation measures were planned. I myself, at that time, was concerned with the construction of military position. The Higher So and Police Leader informed me that he had the order to burn the village of Putten, and to transfer the male population to a concentration camp in the Reich. I said that he should reduce the figure to 40% and later on he reported to me that the death figures in German concentration camps were high. I turned to him and to the Armed Forces Commander to have these men returned. The Armed Forces Commander agreed. Whether this order was actually carried out I don't know.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, perhaps at this point we could make a short pause?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
(A recess was taken).
DR. STEINBAUER: Members of the High Tribunal, I should like to return the question of the blocking of foreign currency. was against it, and that he, Goering, as head of the four-year plan made the decision to blockade the foreign currency -- it was to be removed. And he writes "I hold the responsibility." That was a decision which was made by Goering.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, it is not, of course the regular way to infer the Tribunal, your statement as to what one of the defendants may have said to you during an adjournment.
DR. STEINBAUER: He wrote it.
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid that doesn't make it any better. You may ask the witness any qestion about it.
DR. STEINBAUER: On the question of shooting without court sentence, I should like to refer to a very important document, No. 77, page 199. This is F-224, report of Kriminal Kommissar Munt. It is as follows, on page 3:
"In my opinion it is very likely that General Christiansen demanded the maxim number of victims to be executed. Cristiansen spoke to Rauter, an impulsive and tactless man, of numerous reprisals and the latter on his part applied pressure upon the DDS (Dr. Schoengartner)."
He reports further on page 5:
"These were often prisoners who had already been sentenced to death by the Higher SS and Police Chief. Reprisals as punishable acts were a matter for the police. After August 1944 and in accordance with an order of the Fuehrer these reprisals were interpreted in the manner that a number of Dutchmen were arrested for entirely different motives and that they were shot on account of acts of sabotage and murder attempts."
A May I explain that briefly? be shot according to the Fuehrer's orders. The Higher SS and Police Chief called upon his court officer for this examination. When there was an attempt to blow a bridge, instead of shooting hostages, these men were taken and shot. It is the opposite of the shooting of hostages. Or at least it was supposed to be.
Q Now, I come to the Chapter iV-B "Concentration Camps and Prisons." My first question: Who was competent in these matters? were competent. For court prisons, the court authorities; that is, the court prisons were under my charge.
Q Were there concentration camps in the Netherlands?
A Yes, especially the big concentration camp of Hertogenborch. Then a police transit camp near Amersfort; a Jewish assembly camp in Westerborg.
I have already spoken of Michelgestell; that was the protective custody camp. And then the camp at Ommen, which was neither a police nor a concentration camp - - but abuses occurred there.
Q What can you tell me about the Hertogenborch Camp? nally intended as such, at that time when we intended to keep the Jews in the Netherlands. But Reichsfuehrer Himmler gave an order to make a concentration camp out of it. reasoning that I couldn't prevent Dutchmen from coming into the concentration camp, that I would prefer them to come into a concentration camp in the Netherlands where I might be able to exert a certain influence. place; for example, in the Vught Camp, which you mentioned.
A That is quite true. In prisons, as well as in concentration camps, excesses occurred. In wartime I considered that almost unavoidable, because subaltern people are too little controlled. But when I learned of any such thing I took steps against it. The first time -- aroune 1940 or 1941 --- that my German court reported to me that a prisoner had been brought before it with wounds from a beating on his head. I had the case investigated, the head of prison was punished and sent back to the Reich. In the Vught Concentration where was a high death rate. I immediately started an investigation, using the services of Dutch medical personnel. Daily -- and later on weekly --- I had the death figures reported to me, umtil they reached approximately a normal size. Of course, I don't knew whether the head of the camp reported the normal death cases only or also included the cases of shooting. I don't know that.