Tribunal whether you can identify that chart in any way. consequently be identified by myself.
Q What, if anything, did you have to do with making up that chart?
COL. AMEN: For the information of the Tribunal, that is U.S.A. Exhibit 493, the chart of which the witness speaks. basic organization of the RSHA, as well as the position of Kaltenbrunner, the Gestapo, and the SD in the German Police system? sentation of the organization of the RSHA. It serves correctly the position of the SA as well as the State Police, the Criminal Police, and the SD. the RSHA and state for what period you continued to serve in that capacity.
A (At this point the witness pointed to Amt III on the chart.) the RSHA, and state for what periods of time each of than continued to serve in his respective capacity?
A Kaltenbrunner was Chief of the Sicherheits Polizei and the SD; as such, he was also Chief of the RSHA, The Internal Organizational Term for the SD and The Sicherheits Polizei. Kaltenbrunner occupied this position from 30 January 1943 until the end of the war. Mueller was Chief of Amt IV, the Gestapo. He took part in the foundation of the Gestapo and occupied the Office of Chief and subsequently, and consecutively, rose to the chiefdom of Amt IV. He occupied this position until the end of the war. Jewish problem from 1940 on. To my knowledge, he occupied this position also until the conclusion of the war. Chief of Amt III?
Q Turning now to the designation "Mobile Units" shown in the lower right hand corner of the chart, please explain to the Tribunal the significance of the terms "Einsatzgruppen" and "Einsatzkommandos".
A The concept "Einsatzgruppe" was promulgated after a meeting between the Chiefs of the OKW and the OKH, and they served the purpose of allowing the SIPO to have its own organizational units in the field. The concept "Einsatzgruppe" first appeared during the Polish campaign. before the biginning of the Russian campaign. This agreement specified that the Army groups, or the armies, should have an official of the SIPO or the SD, that this official should have under his disposal all mobile units in the form of Einsatzgruppe, subdivided into Einsatzkommandos. The Einsatzkommandos should, on orders from the army group, or the army, be at the disposal of the army units as needed.
Soviet Russia, any agreement was entered into between the OKW, OKH and RSHA? were used in the Russian campaign, according to a written agreement between the OKW, OKH and RSHA.
Q Do you know that there was such a written agreement? Schellenberg had with the OKH and OKW, and also I had a written copy of this agreement in my own hand.
Q Explain to the Tribunal who Schellenberg was; what position, if any, did he occupy? that he was conducting his conferences on Heydrich's Commission.
Q On approximately what date did these negotiations take place?
A The discussions took several weeks. The agreement must have been reached about one or two weeks before the beginning of the Russian War.
Q Did you yourself ever see a copy of this written agreement?
Q Did you have occasion to work with this written agreement?
Q On more than one occasion?
A Yes; and that is in all questions that had to do with the use of Einsatzkommandos in the Army. located today?
A No, I don't. to the Tribunal the entire substance of this written agreement. kommandos should be set up and used. Until that time, the Army had done the job that the SIPO should have done itself; so it used to be that Einsatzkommandos were a nacessity.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you say the Einsatzkommandos did under the agreement?
A (continuing) The second was the relationship between the Army, the Einsatzgruppe and the Kommandos. The agreement specified that the Army Groups or Army should take care of the Einsatzgruppen, so far as transportation and housing were concerned. Further instructions came from the Chief of the SIPO and SD.
Q Let us understand. Is it correct that an Einsatz Group was to be attached to each Army Group or Army? Einsatz Group was to operate? the fact that the Einsatzgruppe was attached to a specific Army Group and marched with it, whereas the Einsatskommandos functioned in territories as determined by the Army Groups or Armies. direct the time during which they were to operate?
A That is included in the concept "March."
Q And also to direct any additional tasks they were to perform?
A Yes. So far as the actual instructions of the Chiefs of the SIPO and SD were concerned, they were guided by the general proposition that they could issue orders when the operative situation made it necessary. of the Einsatz Group Command to the Army Command?
A I can't remember whether anything specific was said about that. At any rate, there was a liaison leader between the Einsatzgruppe and the Army.
Q Do you recall any other provisions of this written agreement? that agreement.
Q What position did you occupy with respect to this agreement?
Einsatzgruppe D, and was subordinate to the Chief of the SIPO and the SD with the Army.
Q When was Heydrich's death? against Soviet Russia? leaders?
A There were four Einsatzgruppen, Group A, B, C and D. Chief of Einsatzgruppe A was Stahlecker; Chief of Einsatzgruppe B was Nebe; Chief of Einsatzgruppe C Dr. Rausche, and later, Dr. Thomas; Chief of Einsatzgruppe D Bierkamp.
Q To which Army was Group D attached? attached to the 11th Army.
Q Where did Group D operate? area in which Group D originally operated, naming the cities or territories?
A The most northern city was Czernowitz; then southward to Mogilev Podelsk; southwest to Odessa; northeast of that, Melitopol, Mariopol, Taganrog, Rostov and the Crimea.
Q What was the ultimate objective of Group D? Caucasus. An Army Group was provided for this operation.
Q When did Group D commence its move into Soviet Russia? and they marched to the goals already set by the Army. The entire Army Group started at the beginning of June.
Q You are referring to the 11th Army? Einsatz Groups concerned with Jews and Communist Commissars?
Einsatz Groups and Kommando leaders were hourly instructed. Communist functionaries? the Jews should be liquidated, as well as the political soviet Commissars.
Q When you say "liquidated", do you mean killed?
A I mean that word "killing". conference at Pretz? and Kommandos, their work goals; and at this time the necessary commands were issued.
Q Who was present at that conference?
Q What were those orders? contributed to the liquidation that I have already mentioned.
Q And that conference took place on approximately what date? received orders at this conference to exterminate the Jews and Communist functionaries, in addition to the regular professional work of the Security Police and SD; is that correct?
A That's right. any communication from Himmler to the Chiefs of Army Groups and Armies, concerning this mission?
A Yes. Himmler informed me before the beginning of the Russian Campaign that Hitler, in a conversation with the High Command, had stated his aim and had commanded them to act accordingly. had been similarly informed of these orders for the liquidation of the Jews and Soviet functionaries?
A I believe that it is not correct in that particular form. They had no orders for liquidation. Rather, the order for the liquidation originated with Himmler, but since this liquidation took place in the operational region of the High Command of the Army, the Army was asked to support these measures. Without these instructions to the Army, the Einsatz Groups would not have been able to function in the sense that I have just described. order?
A Yes, in the late Summer of 1941, Himmler was in Nikolaiev. He assembled, the leaders of the Einsatz Groups and Kommandos, and repeated to them the order for liquidation, so that the leaders and men who took part in such liquidation had no personal responsibility for their acts. The responsibility was his alone, as well as that of the Fuehrer.
Q And you yourself heard that said? the Army Group Commanders?
Q How do you know that? these orders with Army leaders. OKW, OKH and RSHA known to the other leaders in the RSHA? active in the Einsatz Groups and Kommandos; furthermore, also known to the leaders who had to do with organization.
Q Most of the leaders came from the RSHA; did they not?
A Which leaders?
A No, one cannot say that. The leaders in the Einsatz Groups and Kommandos came from the entire Reich.
to Kaltenbrunner? with these questions, and consequently must have known the background of these Einsatz Groups that were under his command.
Q Who was the Commanding Officer of the 11th Army?
AAt first, von Schober; later, von Mannstein. of the 11th Army directed or supervised Einsatz Group D in carrying out its liquidation activities? were to take place at a distance of not less than 200 kilometers from Army Headquarters.
Q Do you recall any other occasion? leaders to hasten the liquidation on the grounds that in this region a famine was threatening, and there was a housing shortage. your direction?
A In the year June '41 to June '42, the Einsatzkommandos announced approximately 90,000 people as liquidated.
Q Did that include men, women and children?
Q On what do you base those figures?
Q Were those reports submitted to you?
Q And you saw them and read them?
A I beg your pardon?
Q And you saw and read those reports, personally? the Tribunal?
liquidated by other Einsatz Groups? larger.
Q That was due to what factor? Einsatz Groups were exaggerated. from time to time?
Q And those reports showed liquidations exceeding those of Group D; is that correct?
Q Did you personally supervise mass executions of these individuals? execution was carried out? area. The registration was abandoned.
Q On what pretext, if any, were they rounded up?
Q Will you continue? for execution. The place of execution was usually an anti-tank ditch or a natural gully. The executions were carried out in a military fashion.
Q In what way were they transported to the place of execution? immediately executed. In this way, the attempt was made to keep the time as short as possible in which the victims knew what was about to happen to them until the time of their actual execution.
Q Was that your idea?
Q And after they were shot what was done with the bodies? were actually dead? not entirely dead and to then administer the coup de grace.
Q And who would do that?
Q In what positions were the victims shot? executed? and given directly to the Reich Minister or to the RSHA. At first the clothing was distributed to the population, but in the winter of '42 it was taken by the NSV and disposed of by that organization.
Q All their personal property was registered at the time?
A Only the objects of value were registered. The other objects were not.
Q. What happened to the garments which the victims were wearing when they went to the place of execution? before the execution.
Q All of them?
Q How about the rest of the garments they were wearing? Groups?
A That was the order in my Einsatz Group. Other Einsatz Groups handled the matter differently.
Q In what way did they handle it? liquidation and killed the victims simply by shooting them in the back of the head.
Q And you objected to that procedure?
Q For what reason? executions suffered spiritually unnecessarily from that.
Kommandos from these victims? RSHA in Berlin or the Reich Minister of Finance. As to the extent they could be used immediately on hand, they were so used. victims? Finance in Berlin.
Q How do you know that?
Q How about watches, for example, taken from the victims? in the same manner?
A Until the spring of '42, yes. Then an order came from Himmler that in the future women and children
Q How had the women and children been killed previously?
after they had been executed?
the spring of '42, what order did you receive with respect to the use of these vans?
these vans and their appearance?
from outside. They were disguised as trailers. They were so mass executions.
The time needed for the transportation was long
Q How were the victims induced to enter the vans?
Q How was the gas turned on?
Q How long did it take to kill the victims ordinarily?
no pain. such van? persons. these vans from time to time?
A I didn't understand the question. the vans? not like to use the vans.
Q Why not? to the members of the Einsatz Kommandos. the Einsatz Groups? Einsatz Group but came from a special Kommando. This Kommando was led by the man who made these vans. The vans were given to the individual groups by the RSHA. Groups.
A I can't say about that. I only know about Einsatz Group D, and indirectly about Einsatz Group C. with respect to these gas vans?
COLONEL AMEN: May it please the Tribunal, I am referring to Exhibit 501-PS, US Exhibit No. 288, being a
Q Will you tell the Tribunal who Becker was? It was he who was in charge of the construction of the vans for Einsatz Group D.
Q Who was Rauf?
A Rauf was group leader in Amt II. He was in charge of motor vehicles at that time.
Q Can you identify that letter in any way?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
us whether you can identify it in any way? "R" on it, and the reference to the man who had to do with the motor vehicles under Rauf seems to testify to its authenticity.
Q So that you believe it to be an authentic document?
Q Will you now lay it aside on the table there? Tribunal why you believe that the type of execution ordered by you, namely, military, was preferable to the shooting in the neck procedure adopted by the other Einsatz Groups? should carry out the executions in a military fashion through orders and would have to make no decision of their own. That is, their instructions should be strictly from without. On the other hand, it was known to me that in the case of individual executions emotional disturbances could not be avoided, since the victims discovered that they were to be executed too soon and thereby were subjected to a prolonged nervous disturbance. Moreover, it seemed intolerable to me that the individual leaders and men were forced in this way to form their own decisions and on these decisions take the responsibility for the killing of a large number of people. executed? done by the Jews themselves. The registration was carried out by a Jewish council of elders.
Q Did the amount of Jewish blood have anything to do with it?
A I can't remember details, but I believe that in this case half Jews were also included in the concept of Jews. the Einsatz Groups and Einsatz Kommandos?
A I didn't understand the question.
the Einsatz Groups? a lesser extent by the SD.
Q Kripo?
A Yes, also the Kripo. Gestapo, Kripo, and to a lesser extent the SD.
Q Were there any other sources of personnel?
A Yes; the bread masses of the men employed were furnished by the SS. The Gestapo and the Kripo furnished the technicians, and the troops were furnished by the SS.
Q How about the Waffen SS? was the SS.
Q How about the Order Police? compared with the other Einsatz Groups? large as the other Einsatz Groups. That changed in the course of time. Individual Einsatz Groups were in the course of time greatly enlarged.
COLONEL AMEN: May it please the Tribunal, I have other questions bunal, but I don't want to take the time of the Tribunal unless they feel that they want any more such testimony.
I thought perhaps if
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken from 1120 to 1130 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, the Tribunal does not think Did you not hear what I said?
at the present stage to leave the matter where it is. But there is one aspect of the witness' evidence which the Tribunal would BY COLONEL AMEN:
described continued after 1942, and if so, for how long a period of time thereafter?
A I de not know. So far as I know, the basic order was not cancelled. But I can remember individual cases in which it would be possible to make concrete testimony on that subject, at least as regards Russia, for very shortly thereafter the retreat began so that the operational region of the Einsatz groups varied.
I do know that further Einsatz groups, with corresponding orders, were put into action in other regions.
Q Your personal knowledge extends up to what date?
Q Your personal knowledge of these activities extends up to what date?
A I still haven't got the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat the question.
Q Your personal knowledge of these activities extends up to what date?
THE PRESIDENT: There must be some technical defect.
THE WITNESS: I can hear now.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you hear now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. BY COLONEL AMEN: activities goes up to what date? riate withdrawals of the order were made about six months before the conclusion of the war. furthermore, I saw a document according to which the liquidation of Soviet Commissars was to be terminated. I cannot recall a specific date.
Q Do you know whether in fact it was so terminated? BY THE PRESIDENT: group. added to the group from the country itself.
Q Including them, did you say?
Q Do you know how many there would be in other groups?
A I should estimate that at the beginning, seven to eight hundred men; but, as I said before, this number changed rapidly in the course of time, for this reason, that individual chiefs of groups asked for additional personnel and got it.