Q That was due to what factor?
AI believe that to a large extent the figures submitted by the other Einsatz Groups were exaggerated.
QDid you see reports of liquidations from the other Einsatz Groups, from time to time?
AYes.
QAnd those reports showed liquidations exceeding those of Group D; is that correct?
AYes.
QDid you personally supervise mass executions of these individuals?
AI was present at the mass executions.
QWill you explain to the Tribunal in detail how an individual mass execution was carried out?
AA local Einsatzkommando attempted to collect all the Jews in one area. The registration was abandoned.
QOn what pretext, if any, were they rounded up?
AThey were rounded up on the pretext that they were to be relocated.
QWill you continue?
AAfter the registration, the Jews were collected at a certain place for execution. The place of execution was usually an anti-tank ditch or a natural gully. The executions were carried out in a military fashion.
QIn what way were they transported to the place of execution?
AThey were transported to the execution place in trucks and were immediately executed. In this way, the attempt was made to keep the time as short as possible in which the victims knew what was about to happen to them until the time of their actual execution.
QWas that your idea?
AYes.
QAnd after they were shot what was done with the bodies?
AThe bodies were buried in the anti-tank ditches or the gullies.
QWhat determination, if any, was made as to whether the persons were actually dead?
AThe unit leaders had the order to act in such cases as the victim was not entirely dead and to then administer the coup de grace.
Q And who would do that?
AEither the unit leader himself or somebody designated by him.
QIn what positions were the victims shot?
AStanding or kneeling.
QWhat was done with the personal property and clothing of the persons executed?
AAll personal property of value was collected at the registration and given directly to the Reich Minister or to the RSHA. At first the clothing was distributed to the population, but in the winter of '42 it was taken by the NSV and disposed of by that organization.
QAll their personal property was registered at the time?
AOnly the objects of value were registered. The other objects were not.
Q.What happened to the garments which the victims were wearing when they went to the place of execution?
AThey were obliged to take off their outer garments immediately before the execution.
QAll of them?
AThe outer garments, yes.
QHow about the rest of the garments they were wearing?
AThey were allowed to keep their underclothing.
QWas that true of not only your group but of the other Einsatz Groups?
AThat was the order in my Einsatz Group. Other Einsatz Groups handled the matter differently.
QIn what way did they handle it?
AA few of the unit leaders did not employ the military way of liquidation and killed the victims simply by shooting them in the back of the head.
QAnd you objected to that procedure?
AI was against that procedure, yes.
QFor what reason?
ABecause both the victims as well as those who carried out the executions suffered spiritually unnecessarily from that.
Q Now, what was done with the property collected by the Einstaz Kommandos from these victims?
ASo far as the question of objects of value they were sent to the RSHA in Berlin or the Reich Minister of Finance. As to the extent they could be used immediately on hand, they were so used.
QFor example, what happened to gold and silver taken from the victims?
AThat was, as I just said, turned over to the Reich Minister of Finance in Berlin.
QHow do you know that?
AI can remember how that was actually handled in Simferopol.
QHow about watches, for example, taken from the victims?
AOn the request of the Army the watches were put at their disposal.
QWere all victims, including the men, women and children, executed in the same manner?
AUntil the spring of '42, yes. Then an order came from Himmler that in the future women and children should only be killed in gas vans.
QHow had the women and children been killed previously?
APrecisely as the men were - by shooting.
QWhat, if anything, was done about burying the victims after they had been executed?
AAt first the Kommandos buried the victims completely so that the signs of the execution could not be seen, and then the population financed the burial later - the local population.
QReferring to the gas vans which you said you received in the spring of '42, what order did you receive with respect to the use of these vans?
AThese gas vans should be used in the future for the killing of women and children.
QWill you explain to the Tribunal the construction of these vans and their appearance?
AThe actual purpose of these vans could not be recognized from outside.
They were disguised as trailers. They were so constructed that when the motor was running the gas was conducted to the van and brought about the death of the occupants in 10 to 15 minutes.
QExplain in detail just how one of these vans was used for an execution.
AThe vans were loaded with the victims and driven to the place of burial, which usually was the same as that used for the mass executions.
The time needed for the transportation was long enough for their death.
QHow were the victims induced to enter the vans?
AThey were told that they were to be transported to another locality.
QHow was the gas turned on?
AI am not familiar with the technical details.
QHow long did it take to kill the victims ordinarily?
A About 10 to 15 minutes, and the victims suffered no pain.
QHow many persons could be killed simultaneously in one such van?
AThe vans were various sizes, anywhere from 15 to 25 persons.
QDid you receive reports from those persons operating these vans from time to time?
AI didn't understand the question.
QDid you receive reports from those who Were working on the vans?
AI received the report that the Einsatz Kommandos did not like to use the vans.
QWhy not?
ABecause the burial of the occupants of it was unpleasant to the members of the Einsatz Kommandos.
QWill you tell the Tribunal who furnished these vans to the Einsatz Groups?
AThe gas vans did not belong to the motor pool of the Einsatz Group but came from a special Kommando. This Kommando was led by the man who made these vans. The vans were given to the individual groups by the RSHA.
QWere the vans supplied to all of the different Einsatz Groups.
AI can't say about that. I only know about Einsatz Group D, and indirectly about Einsatz Group C.
QAre you familiar with the letter from Becker to Rauf with respect to these gas vans?
AI saw this letter during my interrogation.
COLONEL AMEN:May it please the Tribunal, I am referring to Exhibit 501-PS, US Exhibit No. 288, being a letter already in evidence, a letter from Becker to Rauf.
Q Will you tell the Tribunal who Becker was?
AAs far as I recall, Becker was the builder of the vans. It was he who was in charge of the construction of the vans for Einsatz Group D.
QWho was Rauf?
ARauf was group leader in Amt II. He was in charge of motor vehicles at that time.
QCan you identify that letter in any way?
AAs far as I can recall the content-
(A document was handed to the witness.)
QWill you look at the letter before you and tell us whether you can identify it in any way?
AI recognize the external appearance of this as well as the sign "R" on it, and the reference to the man who had to do with the motor vehicles under Rauf seems to testify to its authenticity.
QSo that you believe it to be an authentic document?
AYes, I do.
QWill you now lay it aside on the table there?
Referring to your previous testimony, will you explain to the Tribunal why you believe that the type of execution ordered by you, namely, military, was preferable to the shooting in the neck procedure adopted by the other Einsatz Groups?
AOn one hand, it was our aim that the individual leaders and men should carry out the executions in a military fashion through orders and would have to make no decision of their own. That is, their instructions should be strictly from without. On the other hand, it was known to me that in the case of individual executions emotional disturbances could not be avoided, since the victims discovered that they were to be executed too soon and thereby were subjected to a prolonged nervous disturbance. Moreover, it seemed intolerable to me that the individual leaders and men were forced in this way to form their own decisions and on these decisions take the responsibility for the killing of a large number of people.
QIn what manner did you determine which were the Jews to be executed?
AIt was not up to me, but the identification of the Jews was done by the Jews themselves. The registration was carried out by a Jewish council of elders.
QDid the amount of Jewish blood have anything to do with it?
AI can't remember details, but I believe that in this case half Jews were also included in the concept of Jews.
QWhat organizations furnished most of the officer personnel of the Einsatz Groups and Einsatz Kommandos?
AI didn't understand the question.
Q What organizations furnished most of the officer personnel of the Einsatz Groups?
AThe leadership personnel was furnished by the Gestapo and to a lesser extent by the SD.
QKripo?
AYes, also the Kripo. Gestapo, Kripo, and to a lesser extent the SD.
QWere there any other sources of personnel?
AYes; the bread masses of the men employed were furnished by the SS. The Gestapo and the Kripo furnished the technicians, and the troops were furnished by the SS.
QHow about the Waffen SS?
AThe Waffen SS was supposed to provide one company just as also was the SS.
QHow about the Order Police?
AThe Order Police also furnished a company.
QWhat was the size of Einsatz Group D and its operating area as compared with the other Einsatz Groups?
AEinsatz Group D was about two-thirds as large or about half as large as the other Einsatz Groups. That changed in the course of time. Individual Einsatz Groups were in the course of time greatly enlarged.
COLONEL AMEN:May it please the Tribunal, I have other questions relating to organizational, matters which I think would clarify some of the evidence which has already been in part received by the Tri bunal, but I don't want to take the time of the Tribunal unless they feel that they want any more such testimony.
I thought perhaps if any members of the Tribunal had questions they could ask this witness directly, because he is the best informed on these organi zational matters of anyone that will be presented in Court.
THE PRESIDENT:We will adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken from 1120 to 1130 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, the Tribunal does not think that it is necessary to go further into the organizational questions at this stage, but it is a matter which must be really decided by you because you know what the nature of the evidence which you are considering is.
Did you not hear what I said?
So far as the Tribunal is concerned, they are satisfied at the present stage to leave the matter where it is.
But there is one aspect of the witness' evidence which the Tribunal would like you to investigate, and that is whether the practices to which he has been speaking continued after 1942, and for how long.
BY COLONEL AMEN:
QCan you state whether the liquidation practices which you have described continued after 1942, and if so, for how long a period of time thereafter?
AI de not know. So far as I know, the basic order was not cancelled. But I can remember individual cases in which it would be possible to make concrete testimony on that subject, at least as regards Russia, for very shortly thereafter the retreat began so that the operational region of the Einsatz groups varied.
I do know that further Einsatz groups, with corresponding orders, were put into action in other regions.
QYour personal knowledge extends up to what date?
AThe question did not come, through to me.
QYour personal knowledge of these activities extends up to what date?
AI still haven't got the question.
THE PRESIDENT:Will you repeat the question.
QYour personal knowledge of these activities extends up to what date?
THE PRESIDENT:There must be some technical defect.
THE WITNESS:I can hear now.
THE PRESIDENT:Can you hear now?
THE WITNESS:Yes, I can. BY COLONEL AMEN:
QThe question was, your personal knowledge of these liquidation activities goes up to what date?
ASo far as the liquidation of Jews is concerned, I know that appropriate withdrawals of the order were made about six months before the conclusion of the war. furthermore, I saw a document according to which the liquidation of Soviet Commissars was to be terminated. I cannot recall a specific date.
QDo you know whether in fact it was so terminated?
AI believe yes. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QThe Tribunal would like to know the number of men in your Einsatz group.
AThere were about 500 people in my Einsatz group, besides those who were added to the group from the country itself.
QIncluding them, did you say?
AExcluding those who were brought into the group from the land itself.
QDo you know how many there would be in other groups?
AI should estimate that at the beginning, seven to eight hundred men; but, as I said before, this number changed rapidly in the course of time, for this reason, that individual chiefs of groups asked for additional personnel and got it.
Q The numbers increased, did they?
AYes, the numbers increased.
THE PRESIDENT:All right.
COLONEL AMEN:Now, there are perhaps just a half dozen of these questions I would like to ask, because I do think they might clear up, in the minds of the Tribunal, some of the evidence which has gone before.
I shall be very brief, if that is satisfactory to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes. BY COLONEL AMEN:
QWill you explain the significance of the different widths of the blue lines on the chart?
AThe thick blue line between Himmler as Chief of the SS, end the RSHA, is designed to show the intensity of the relationship between those two offices.
Here it is a question of an office in which ministerial questions of leadership as well as individual executive matters were taken up. That is to say, in the circle of operations of the SIPO and the, SD. The organizational scheme, seen from the legal point of view, represents an illegal state of affairs, namely, that the RSHA never actually had official validity.
The formal, legal situation is different from that which appears in this chart. Party and state offices are amalgamated in this chart. Under this designation neither laws nor decrees were a legal basis. None of these came from this organization. That is due to the fact that the State Police, in their ministerial capacity, were subordinate to the ministry of the Interior, whereas the SD, despite this organization, was an organ of the Party.
Therefore, if I wished to reproduce this chart as it legally should be, I should nave to set, in place of Amt IV, the Amt Political Police of the previous Hauptamt Sicherheitspolizei. This office, political police, existed formally to the very end, and it had been preceded by the Police Department of the Ministry of the Interior. At the same time, the Gestapo Amt continued to exist formally, the Central Office of the Prussian Gestapo, the leading office of all the police activities of the country.
Thus, the administrative questions were developed under the leadership of the Minister of the Interior.
So far as the emphasis on the formal existence of relevance of the Ministry of the Interior was concerned, it appeared under the heading of the Ministry of the Interior with the heading "Pol", with the corresponding designations of the relevant offices of the previous main office of the Reichssicherheitspolizei.
That is to say, "Pol-S" means Sicherheitspolizei.
The RSHA was nothing more than a camouflage designation which did not affect the actual conditions, but the Chiefs of the SD and the SIPO were included under this term "RSHA". And the SD main office, which existed until 1939, was given the opportunity of using whatever letterhead it wanted to, either the one or the other.
At the same time, an opportunity was afforded to amalgamate all the forces of the police and to operate in whatever field it was expedient to operate in.
But in this office state positions did remain, in a way, dependent on the Ministry of the Interior, and the office of the SD remained a Party Office.
The SD Main Office, or the RSHA, had formally only the significance of an SS Main Office, a main office in which the members of the SS and the SIPO and the SD belonged to the SS. But so far as the State Offices were concerned, the SS--that is to say, Himmler, as leader of the SSgave these offices no instructions. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QI am not sure that I follow altogether what you have been saying, but what you have been saying the reason why you are shown on the chart as concerned with Amt III, which refers, apparently, only to inside Germany, where, according to your evidence, you were the head of Einsatz Group D, which was operating outside Germany?
AThe fact that I led an Einsatz group had nothing to do with the fact that I was also Chief of Amt III. That was given me as an individual, and not as a leader of Amt III, In my capacity as leader of an Einsatz group I ran into altogether new experiences.
QI see. And did it involve that you left Germany and went into the area invaded in the Soviet Union?
AYes. BY COLONEL AMEN:
QWill you now explain the significance of the dotted blue lines, as compared with the solid blue lines on the right-hand side of the chart?
AThe solid line indicates a direct official channel, whereas the dotted lines signify that in these regards there was no direct, immediate chain of command.
QWas the term "SD" ever used to include both the SIPO and the SD?
AIn the course of years the term "SD" was used incorrectly. It cam to be used as an abbreviation for SIPO and SD, without actually being designed for that. "SD" was originally simply a designation for the fact that someone belonged to the SS via the SD Hapt Main Office. When the SD Main Office dissolved and was taken up in the RSHA, the question arose that the designation SD, which was also worn on arm bands, should be replaced by another designation, namely, RSHA.
Things did not reach that point because that work on camouflage, of the RSHA, would have been in danger. when, for example, I read in a Fuehrer order that in France people were to be turned over to the SD, that was a case in point of such a false designation, since there were no such offices in France; and, on the other hand, the SD, so far as its offices were concerned-- for instance, Amt III-- was simply an intelligence organ.
QBriefly, what was the relationship between the SS and the Gestapo?
AThe relationship between the SS and Gestapo were these!
"The Reichsfuehrer SS, as such, took over the leadership of the police and attempted to amalgamate the State Police and the SS, that is to say, on the one hand to employ only members of the State Police, who were active in the SS and, on the other hand, to extend the instutions of the SS, and in this way to provide possible candidates for the State Police. This amalgamation was later extended to bring about the same relationship between the SS and the Ministry of the Interior.
QAbout how many full time agents and honorary auxilliary personnel did the SD employ?
AOne may not use the concept SD in this connection. It is necessary to discriminate between Amt III and Amt VI. Amt III, as the interior intelligence organ, had three thousand main officers, including men and women. On the other hand, the internal intelligence service worked with honorary personnel, that is to say with men and women who could divide the internal intelligence services with their experiences in their service. I would judge that the number of them was roughly one thousand.
QWill you briefly give the Tribunal a general example of how a typical transaction was handled through the channels indicated on the chart?
AFirst, a general example in order to make things clear. Himmler discovered through experience that more and more saboteurs were being dropped from planes in Germany and were endangering transportation and factories. He told this to Kaltenbrunner and instructed him to make his subdivisions aware of this fact and to take measures to see to it that these saboteurs should be eliminated as soon and as completely as possible.
Kaltenbrunner instructed Amt IV, that is to say the State Police, with the preparation of the necessary order to the regional offices.
This order was drawn up by the appropriate office in Amt IV and was transmitted by Mueller, or what is more probable, because of the importance of the question and the necessity of bringing the attention of the other offices to this fact, gave the order to Kaltenbrunner, who signed it and passed it On to the regional offices in the Reich.
On the basis of this order, for example, it was determined that the State Police offices should report on the measures they were taking, as well as on their effects.
These reports went back through the same channels from the regional offices to the experts in Amt IV, thence to the Chief of Amt IV, thence to the Chief of the RSHA Kaltenbrunner, and thence to the Chief of the German Police Himmler.
QAnd finally, will you give a specific example of a typical transaction handled through the channels indicated on the chart?
AThe example of the arrest of the leaders of the left parties after the events of the 20th of July.
This order was also transmitted from Himmler to Kaltenbrunner.
Kaltenbrunner passed it on to Amt IV and this order was formulated by Amt IV, signed by Kaltenbrunner and sent to the regional offices.
The reports were returned from the subordinate offices back to the higher offices along the same channels.
COLONEL AMEN: May it please the Tribunal. The witness is now available to other Counsel.
I understand that Colonel Pokrovsky has some questions that he wishes to ask on behalf of the Soviets.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL POKROVSKY.
QWitness, there is a very important matter for clarification of questions or of a report on which the Soviet Delegation is at present working.
Therefore, at the pleasure of the Court, I would like to ask you, witness, several questions.
You said that you had been present as an inspector twice at the mass executions.
On whose orders have you been as an inspector at the executions?
THE PRESIDENT: I did not get the answer to that question.
The answer has not come through here.
AI was at the executions on my own initiative.
QBut you said that you were present in the capacity of an inspector.
AI said for inspections.
QWas it on your initiative?
AYes.
QAt the executions was one of the chiefs always present?
AWhenever it was possible I sent one of the members of the staff of the Einsatz groups to the executions, but because of the large distance covered by the Einsatz groups that was not always possible.
QFor what purpose was a person sent in the capacity of an inspector?
For what reason was a person sent for inspection purposes?
ATo determine whether or not my instructions, regarding how the executions were to take place, were actually being carried out.
QShall I understand you in such a way that the person acting as an inspector should make certain as to the execution of the order?
ANo, that is not a correct statement of fact. He should simply be a witness as to whether the conditions that I determined as those under which the executions should take place were actually being carried out.
QWhat kind of conditions have you in mind?
AFirst of all the exclusion of spectators. Secondly, the carrying out of the executions in a military way.
Thirdly, an easy carrying out of the transportation and execution in order to avoid unnecessary emotional disturbances.
Fourthly, the supervision of the handling of objects of value to avoid any exploitation.
Of course, there were individual events during these matters that I do not recall now.
At any rate, these measures were designed to avoid any mistreatment, either physical or spiritual.
QWhen you stated with reference to the observation of the disposal of the property, have you had in mind the necessity of taking away those valuables?
AObjects of value were taken away from the victims before the execution, namely by the Jewish Council of Elders, and were turned over to the Einsatz group.
QWhat kind of property have you in mind?
AFor example, gold or silver or papers of value.
QYou wanted to set out the proper direction of that property, or a most complete acquisition of those valuables?
AYes.
QYou mentioned ill-treatment. What have you meant under ill-treatment at the executions?
AIf, for example, the manner of the execution was such that it could not be avoided that people became excited the Kommandos, who had to take part in the execution, had to resort to violence.
QWhat do you understand under the forced suppression of emotional excitement?
AIf, as I just said, the carrying out of the execution in an orderly fashion it was necessary to resort to blows.
QWas it necessary to beat the victims?
A. I never saw such case but I heard of such cases.
Q.From whom?
A.In conversations with members of other Kommandos.
Q.You said that for the executions other means were presented, that is the autocars.
A.Yes.
Q.Do you know where and with whose assistance the inventor has carried out his invention?
A.I can recall only that it was within the purview of Amt II of the RSHA but I cannot say anything more about that more specifically.
Q.How many people were executed by means of those murder cars?
A.I didn't understand the question.
Q.How many people were executed by means of such myrder cars?
A.I can't give you the precise number but it was relatively few.
I should judge a few hundred.
Q.You said that in these vans mostly women and children were executed.
For what reason?
A.That was a specific command of Himmler's. In this way women and children should be spared the spiritual disturbances implicit in the mass executions and also the men who were, to a large extent, married should not be obliged to shoot down women and children.
Q.Has anybody observed the behavior of those who were executed in those murder cars?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you know that Becker had reported to the effect that the death in these murder cars was particularly painful?
A.No. I heard about Becker's report for the first time in the letter that was shown to me here in Court.
On the contrary, I know from other reports that the victims did not suffer on the instance of death.
Q.Have military units taken part in those executions?
A.As a rule, no.
Q. And as an exception?
A.I believe I recall that both in Nikolaew and Simferopol temporar ily a witness from the Army was present.
Q.For what reason, for what purpose?
A.I cannot say that, probably simply to inform himself personally.
Q.And military units were assigned in most places for the carrying out of executions?
A.The Army had officially no department that dealt with these matters particularly, since the Army was in itself against these liquidations.
Q.But, as a matter of fact -
A.Even there voluntary divisions did these things. At the moment I can remember no case from the Army itself but simply from the train follow ing the Army.
Q.You testified regarding those who were subject to annihilation.
The Einsatz group, were they executing only Jews or were also Communist officials executed?
A.Yes, political commissars, those who were politically active.
The fact of belonging to the Communist Party was not enough to expose anyone to persecution.
Q. There was no special investigation as to the specific part which such a person played in the Communist organization?
THE PRESIDENT:Will the interpreter from Russian into English hold the microphone a little further away from his mouth.
Q. (continuing) I understood that the fact of belonging to the Communist Party was sufficient for him to be executed.
A.No, I said the opposite. I said the fact of belonging to the Communist Party was not the definitive consideration and that was not enough to have him executed.
He would have had to have been performing a particular political function.
Q.Have you had any discussion with reference to those murder wagons which were sent from Berlin?
A.I didn't understand the question.