Q The numbers increased, did they?
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
COLONEL AMEN: Now, there are perhaps just a half dozen of these
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY COLONEL AMEN: lines on the chart? is designed to show the intensity of the relationship between those two offices. as well as individual executive matters were taken up. That is to say, in the circle of operations of the SIPO and the, SD. The organizational scheme, seen from the legal point of view, represents an illegal state of affairs, namely, that the RSHA never actually had official validity. chart. Party and state offices are amalgamated in this chart. Under this designation neither laws nor decrees were a legal basis. None of these came from this organization. That is due to the fact that the State Police, in their ministerial capacity, were subordinate to the ministry of the Interior, whereas the SD, despite this organization, was an organ of the Party. should nave to set, in place of Amt IV, the Amt Political Police of the previous Hauptamt Sicherheitspolizei. This office, political police, existed formally to the very end, and it had been preceded by the Police Department of the Ministry of the Interior. At the same time, the Gestapo Amt continued to exist formally, the Central Office of the Prussian Gestapo, the leading office of all the police activities of the country. the Minister of the Interior.
Ministry of the Interior was concerned, it appeared under the heading of the Ministry of the Interior with the heading "Pol", with the corresponding designations of the relevant offices of the previous main office of the Reichssicherheitspolizei. That is to say, "Pol-S" means Sicherheitspolizei. affect the actual conditions, but the Chiefs of the SD and the SIPO were included under this term "RSHA". And the SD main office, which existed until 1939, was given the opportunity of using whatever letterhead it wanted to, either the one or the other.
the forces of the police and to operate in whatever field it was expedient to operate in. But in this office state positions did remain, in a way, dependent on the Ministry of the Interior, and the office of the SD remained a Party Office. of an SS Main Office, a main office in which the members of the SS and the SIPO and the SD belonged to the SS. But so far as the State Offices were concerned, the SS--that is to say, Himmler, as leader of the SSgave these offices no instructions. BY THE PRESIDENT: but what you have been saying the reason why you are shown on the chart as concerned with Amt III, which refers, apparently, only to inside Germany, where, according to your evidence, you were the head of Einsatz Group D, which was operating outside Germany? fact that I was also Chief of Amt III. That was given me as an individual, and not as a leader of Amt III, In my capacity as leader of an Einsatz group I ran into altogether new experiences.
Q I see. And did it involve that you left Germany and went into the area invaded in the Soviet Union? BY COLONEL AMEN: as compared with the solid blue lines on the right-hand side of the chart? dotted lines signify that in these regards there was no direct, immediate chain of command.
Q Was the term "SD" ever used to include both the SIPO and the SD?
A In the course of years the term "SD" was used incorrectly. It cam to be used as an abbreviation for SIPO and SD, without actually being designed for that. "SD" was originally simply a designation for the fact that someone belonged to the SS via the SD Hapt Main Office. When the SD Main Office dissolved and was taken up in the RSHA, the question arose that the designation SD, which was also worn on arm bands, should be replaced by another designation, namely, RSHA.
Things did not reach that point because that work on camouflage, of the RSHA, would have been in danger. when, for example, I read in a Fuehrer order that in France people were to be turned over to the SD, that was a case in point of such a false designation, since there were no such offices in France; and, on the other hand, the SD, so far as its offices were concerned-- for instance, Amt III-- was simply an intelligence organ.
Q Briefly, what was the relationship between the SS and the Gestapo?
A The relationship between the SS and Gestapo were these!
"The Reichsfuehrer SS, as such, took over the leadership of the police and attempted to amalgamate the State Police and the SS, that is to say, on the one hand to employ only members of the State Police, who were active in the SS and, on the other hand, to extend the instutions of the SS, and in this way to provide possible candidates for the State Police. This amalgamation was later extended to bring about the same relationship between the SS and the Ministry of the Interior. did the SD employ?
A One may not use the concept SD in this connection. It is necessary to discriminate between Amt III and Amt VI. Amt III, as the interior intelligence organ, had three thousand main officers, including men and women. On the other hand, the internal intelligence service worked with honorary personnel, that is to say with men and women who could divide the internal intelligence services with their experiences in their service. I would judge that the number of them was roughly one thousand. typical transaction was handled through the channels indicated on the chart?
A First, a general example in order to make things clear. Himmler discovered through experience that more and more saboteurs were being dropped from planes in Germany and were endangering transportation and factories. He told this to Kaltenbrunner and instructed him to make his subdivisions aware of this fact and to take measures to see to it that these saboteurs should be eliminated as soon and as completely as possible.
offices. This order was drawn up by the appropriate office in Amt IV taking, as well as on their effects.
These reports went back through transaction handled through the channels indicated on the chart?
parties after the events of the 20th of July. This order was also transmitted from Himmler to Kaltenbrunner.
Kaltenbrunner passed it Kaltenbrunner and sent to the regional offices.
The reports were COLONEL AMEN:
May it please the Tribunal. The witness is now available to other Counsel.
I understand that Colonel Pokrovsky present working.
Therefore, at the pleasure of the Court, I would mass executions.
On whose orders have you been as an inspector at the executions?
THE PRESIDENT: I did not get the answer to that question.
Q Was it on your initiative?
Q At the executions was one of the chiefs always present?
inspector? For what reason was a person sent for inspection purposes?
the order?
A No, that is not a correct statement of fact. He should
Q What kind of conditions have you in mind?
A First of all the exclusion of spectators. Secondly, the carrying out of the executions in a military way.
Thirdly, an easy unnecessary emotional disturbances.
Fourthly, the supervision of the handling of objects of value to avoid any exploitation.
Of do not recall now.
At any rate, these measures were designed to taking away those valuables?
Q What kind of property have you in mind?
or a most complete acquisition of those valuables?
Q You mentioned ill-treatment. What have you meant under ill-treatment at the executions?
emotional excitement?
Q Was it necessary to beat the victims?
A. I never saw such case but I heard of such cases.
Q. From whom?
A. In conversations with members of other Kommandos.
Q. You said that for the executions other means were presented,
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where and with whose assistance the inventor has carried out his invention?
A. I can recall only that it was within the purview of Amt II of the
Q. How many people were executed by means of those murder cars?
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. How many people were executed by means of such myrder cars?
A. I can't give you the precise number but it was relatively few.
Q. You said that in these vans mostly women and children were executed.
For what reason?
A. That was a specific command of Himmler's. In this way women and
Q. Has anybody observed the behavior of those who were executed in those murder cars?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that Becker had reported to the effect that the death in these murder cars was particularly painful?
A. No. I heard about Becker's report for the first time in the letter that was shown to me here in Court.
On the contrary, I know from other
Q. Have military units taken part in those executions?
A. As a rule, no.
Q. And as an exception?
A. I believe I recall that both in Nikolaew and Simferopol temporar
Q. For what reason, for what purpose?
A. I cannot say that, probably simply to inform himself personally.
Q. And military units were assigned in most places for the carrying out of executions?
A. The Army had officially no department that dealt with these matters
Q. But, as a matter of fact -
A. Even there voluntary divisions did these things. At the moment I
Q. You testified regarding those who were subject to annihilation.
officials executed?
A. Yes, political commissars, those who were politically active.
Q. There was no special investigation as to the specific part which such a person played in the Communist organization?
THE PRESIDENT: Will the interpreter from Russian into English hold Q. (continuing) I understood that the fact of belonging to the
A. No, I said the opposite. I said the fact of belonging to the enough to have him executed.
He would have had to have been performing a
Q. Have you had any discussion with reference to those murder wagons which were sent from Berlin?
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss with any one of your or as to the work of those machines?
A. I still cannot understand the sense of the question.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss with any one of your wagons from *---* as to their performance?
A. I cannot recall any specific discussion of that.
Q. Have you had any information with regard to the fact that members use those murder wagons?
A. The Einsatz group made use of the gas vans.
Q. No, I have something else in mind. I want to clarify the question troops did not like that form of execution and preferred others instead?
A. They preferred to use the gas vans to shooting?
Q. Just the other way, that they preferred shootings to the execution to the murder wagons?
A. As I said before,
Q. For what reasons did they prefer shootings and executions by firing squads to the use of murder wagons?
A. As I said before, the unloading of the vans subjected the men in the
Q. What do you have in mind under the circumstances, from the psychological point of view?
A. As far as I can remember the specific psychological, circumstances,
Q. Do you want to say that the victims very clearly showed their sufferings which they had been submitted to?
A. Do you mean during the killing in gas vans?
Q. Yes.
that the victims of killing in the gas vans felt no pain. question was that the unloading of those murder wagons had a very bad impression on the members of the Kommandos? vans were dirtied and so on.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: At the present stage of the trial I have no more questions for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecutor for the French Republic desire to put any questions to the witness? at a later date?
DR. KAUFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Kaltenbrunner): Perhaps I could ask a few questions now with the request that I should be allowed to make my cross examination later after I have already spoken to Kaltenbrunner.
THE WITNESS: May I address a request to the Tribunal? May I sit down?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I saw Kaltenbrunner for the first time on a trip from Berlin to the headquarters of Himmler at the time when Kaltenbrunner was to be appointed Chief of the RSHA and SD. Previous to that I simply knew the fact of his existence. BY DR. KAUFMANN: personally, or official conversations after he had become Chief of the RSHA?
Q Do you know his attitude, as an example, toward the Jewish question?
A I am not familiar with any particular attitude of Kaltenbrunner's.
Q How about the question of the Church?
the State. He agreed, or he was of the opinion that an understanding should be reached with the Church. tion of civilians, parachute troops, and so on? he supported the direction that this work was taking. had no authority to carry out executive orders, for example, that he had no authority to put people into concentration camps or to take them from concentration camps, that those things were handled exclusively by Himmler and Mueller? answer it concretely. The question will have to be broken down. executive action, I must answer in the affirmative. If you then name Himmler and Mueller to the exclusion of Kaltenbrunner, then I must point out that according to the organization of the RSHA Mueller was a subordinate of Kaltenbrunner, and consquently orders from Himmler to Mueller were also orders to Kaltenbrunner and Mueller was obliged to inform Kaltenbrunner of them. concentration camps -- the final decision as regards entry into or departure from was essentially determined by Himmler. I can say that I know absolutely that the expression that often came up, namely, "to the last washerwoman" -- Himmler had the final decision. Whether or not Kaltenbrunner had no authority at all in this regard, I can make no statement.
Q Have you seen original orders of Kaltenbrunner's that ordered the liquidation of sabotage groups and so on?
Q Do you know, either directly or indirectly, that after Heydrich's death a change, which to be sure was not a formal change, but nevertheless a change, took place, as a result of which a milder course was taken by Kaltenbrunner ?
A I couldn't answer that question specifically.
Q I withdraw that question. Here is another question. East?
Q Who gave you this order?
Q That was before the time?
DR. KAUFMANN: I have no further questions at this time. BY THE TRIBUNAL (GENERAL NIKITCHENKO): the Einsatzgruppe was operating? As far as I remember, a fighting Kommando was made of it under the leadership of Bierkamp. Thereafter, the Einsatz Group was, as far as I remember, entirely dissolved. It was amalgamated into the general government and a large number of its personnel were taken thither.
Q What was your occupation after this happened? the retreat from the Caucasus. Thereafter, it took over functions similar to those performed by the Army and to the immediate orders of the Chief of the Kripo in the Ukraine. way I understand, but the function which it had before it continued to perform?
A No, that is not true. It became an actual fighting unit.
Q What does it mean? Against whom were the military actions directed?
Q Or can you say more particularly what this group was actually doing?
it has conducted operations.
A I have no concrete experiences myself. It was used for reconaissance against the partisans and also was actually used as a fighting unit militarily.
Q- But did it carry out any executions? period of time for it now entered into territories in which that sort of activity no longer came into question. of annihilation of the Jews and the Kommissars, is that correct?
Q And in what group did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred? its entirety.
Q Including children?
Q Were allthe Jewish children murdered?
Q The children of those whom you considered as children of Kommissars? inquired after. the group carried cut? the annihilation of thousands of people, which you did? You, personally, did you submit any report? and the Einsatz Group informed the RSHA.
Q Where to?
Q Personally?
Q What was the name of this police officer? Can you name his name? Can you tell his name?
Q After Heydrich?
A I didn't experience what happened after that, but that was the standing order. Heydrich.
AAfter Heydrich's death I was no longer serving, but the order, of course, continued in effect. Heydrich left or were discontinued? formity with the policy of the German Government or was it against it? Do you understand the question?
A Yes. One must, however, discriminate. The order for the liquidation came from the Fuehrer of the Reich and it waste be carried out by the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. the German Party and the German Government, or was it contrary to it?
A Politics is already activity. It was a policy that was determined by the Fuehrer. If you ask whether this activity corresponds to the idea of National Socialism, then I should deny that. BY THE PRESIDENT: Jewish victims by the Jewish Council of Elders.
Q Did the Jewish Council of Elders settle who were to be killed?
Q How did they know who was to be killed? them. them?
A That was done in various ways. As far as I remember, the Council of Elders was given the order to collect valuables.
Q So the Jewish Council of Elders wouldn't know whether or not they were to be killed?
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now until five minutes past two. (Whereupon at 1250 hours the hearing of the Tribunal adjourned to reconvene at 1405 hours).
Military Tribunal, in the matter of: The (TESTIMONY OF OTTO OHLENDORF, CONTINUED) BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): the Einsatz Groups and the Army, do you know whether or not the functions and purposes of the Einsatz Groups were described in the agreement?
Did the agreement say what the Groups were going to do?
Q Do you understand the question?
A Yes. I cannot say that exactly, whether there was a general sentence in the agreement regarding the Security Police activity in this operational sphere, but I am certain that regarding the activity of liquidation, there was nothing said. of all Jews. Was that order in writing?
Q Do you know who gave the order?
A Is this question regarding the activity of the Einsatzgruppe? Heydrich, Streckenbach to the Einsatzgruppe verbally, and the second time repeated by Himmler personally.
Q Did a similar order go to the Army?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, do any of the Defendants Counsel wish to crossexamine this witness?
BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Keitel):
Russian campaign, there were conferences regarding the missions or activities of the Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzkommandos.
Were you personally present at these conferences? was not the mission of the Einsatzgruppe but the structure of the mobile units for an activity in the scope of the operating units of the Army. the Army? hand and the OKW and OKH on the ether was made. Are you familiar with the distinction between the OKH and the OKW?
Q Who from OKW was present at these conferences? but these conferences were led by Heydrich on one hand and by his deputy Schellenberg, on the other side. he talked about the question and he mentioned General Quartiermeister Wagner as that person with whom he was dealing. Can you remember whether this was true at these conferences, the conferences of which you are speaking? remember from these conferences as a name that was mentioned in the conferences. connected with OKW. You cannot mention any personality which was really representative of OKW?
A No, I cannot. I only said that I remembered the letterhead OKW-OKH. I remember these letterheads, and the double title meant to me that there were some conferences with Canaris, and some agreement with Canaris would be material in this agreement, and the letterhead was strange to me, and I explained the letterhead that way. There was a matter of plot connected with this. A general letterhead, OKW-OKH, there was no such thing.