Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss with any one of your superiors the question of the murder wagons which were sent to your unit or as to the work of those machines?
A.I still cannot understand the sense of the question.
Q.Have you had an opportunity to discuss with any one of your superiors with regard to the Einsatz group that had received the murder wagons from *---* as to their performance?
A.I cannot recall any specific discussion of that.
Q.Have you had any information with regard to the fact that members of the Einsatz groups who had been acting as executioners, did not like to use those murder wagons?
A.The Einsatz group made use of the gas vans.
Q.No, I have something else in mind. I want to clarify the question as to whether you received any information that the members of the SD, the troops did not like that form of execution and preferred others instead?
A.They preferred to use the gas vans to shooting?
Q.Just the other way, that they preferred shootings to the execution to the murder wagons?
A.As I said before,
Q.For what reasons did they prefer shootings and executions by firing squads to the use of murder wagons?
A.As I said before, the unloading of the vans subjected the men in the Einsatz Kommandos to unnecessary spiritual disturbance.
Q.What do you have in mind under the circumstances, from the psychological point of view?
A.As far as I can remember the specific psychological, circumstances, certainly bodily functions were released which made the handling of the corpses unpleasant.
Q.Do you want to say that the victims very clearly showed their sufferings which they had been submitted to?
A.Do you mean during the killing in gas vans?
Q.Yes.
A In this regard I can simply repeat what the doctor told me, that the victims of killing in the gas vans felt no pain.
QThen it can be understood that your answer to my previous question was that the unloading of those murder wagons had a very bad impression on the members of the Kommandos?
AYes, as I said before, because of the condition in which the vans were dirtied and so on.
COLONEL POKROVSKY:At the present stage of the trial I have no more questions for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT:Does the prosecutor for the French Republic desire to put any questions to the witness?
Does the counsel for Kaltenbrunner desire to cross-examine now or at a later date?
DR.KAUFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Kaltenbrunner): Perhaps I could ask a few questions now with the request that I should be allowed to make my cross examination later after I have already spoken to Kaltenbrunner.
THE WITNESS:May I address a request to the Tribunal? May I sit down?
THE PRESIDENT:Yes.
THE WITNESS:I saw Kaltenbrunner for the first time on a trip from Berlin to the headquarters of Himmler at the time when Kaltenbrunner was to be appointed Chief of the RSHA and SD. Previous to that I simply knew the fact of his existence. BY DR. KAUFMANN:
QDid you come into personal contact with Kaltenbrunner either personally, or official conversations after he had become Chief of the RSHA?
AYes, of course.
QDo you know his attitude, as an example, toward the Jewish question?
AI am not familiar with any particular attitude of Kaltenbrunner's.
QHow about the question of the Church?
AThe question of the Church -- he deployed the Course taken by the State.
He agreed, or he was of the opinion that an understanding should be reached with the Church.
QDo you know what his thoughts were on the question of the liquidation of civilians, parachute troops, and so on?
Do you know that Kaltenbrunner made efforts to make use of the SD to -
AThat was the duty of the SD even before Kaltenbrunner came, and he supported the direction that this work was taking.
QDo you know, either directly or indirectly that Kaltenbrunner had no authority to carry out executive orders, for example, that he had no authority to put people into concentration camps or to take them from concentration camps, that those things were handled exclusively by Himmler and Mueller?
AI believe this question is too general for mo to be able to answer it concretely. The question will have to be broken down.
If you ask the question whether Kaltenbrunner could bring about executive action, I must answer in the affirmative. If you then name Himmler and Mueller to the exclusion of Kaltenbrunner, then I must point out that according to the organization of the RSHA Mueller was a subordinate of Kaltenbrunner, and consquently orders from Himmler to Mueller were also orders to Kaltenbrunner and Mueller was obliged to inform Kaltenbrunner of them.
On the other hand, it is certain -- and specifically as regards the concentration camps -- the final decision as regards entry into or departure from was essentially determined by Himmler. I can say that I know absolutely that the expression that often came up, namely, "to the last washerwoman" -- Himmler had the final decision. Whether or not Kaltenbrunner had no authority at all in this regard, I can make no statement.
QHave you seen original orders of Kaltenbrunner's that ordered the liquidation of sabotage groups and so on?
ANo.
QDo you know, either directly or indirectly, that after Heydrich's death a change, which to be sure was not a formal change, but nevertheless a change, took place, as a result of which a milder course was taken by Kaltenbrunner ?
AI couldn't answer that question specifically.
QI withdraw that question. Here is another question.
Did Kaltenbrunner know that you were an Einsatz Leader in the East?
AYes.
QWho gave you this order?
AHeydrich gave it to me.
QThat was before the time?
ACertainly.
DR. KAUFMANN:I have no further questions at this time. BY THE TRIBUNAL (GENERAL NIKITCHENKO):
QWitness Ohlendorf, can you answer the question as to what time the Einsatzgruppe was operating?
AThe Einsatz staff went into the Caucasus, then was brought back. As far as I remember, a fighting Kommando was made of it under the leadership of Bierkamp. Thereafter, the Einsatz Group was, as far as I remember, entirely dissolved. It was amalgamated into the general government and a large number of its personnel were taken thither.
QWhat was your occupation after this happened?
AI believe I can say that the Einsatz Group ceased to exist after the retreat from the Caucasus. Thereafter, it took over functions similar to those performed by the Army and to the immediate orders of the Chief of the Kripo in the Ukraine.
QThat is, it was under different command, that is all, that is the way I understand, but the function which it had before it continued to perform?
ANo, that is not true. It became an actual fighting unit.
QWhat does it mean? Against whom were the military actions directed?
A within the scope of the military operations.
QOr can you say more particularly what this group was actually doing?
AAfter the retreat -
Q When you say that the function of this group has changed when it has conducted operations.
AI have no concrete experiences myself. It was used for reconaissance against the partisans and also was actually used as a fighting unit militarily.
Q- But did it carry out any executions?
AI cannot make any definite statement about that as regards this period of time for it now entered into territories in which that sort of activity no longer came into question.
QIn your testimony you said that the Einsatz Group had the object of annihilation of the Jews and the Kommissars, is that correct?
AYes.
QAnd in what group did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred?
AThe order was that the Jewish population should be liquidated in its entirety.
QIncluding children?
AYes.
QWere allthe Jewish children murdered?
AYes.
QThe children of those whom you considered as children of Kommissars?
AI do not know that the families of Soviet Kommissars were ever inquired after.
QWere you sending anywhere the reports of those executions which the group carried cut?
AThe reports on the executions were regularly submitted to the RSHA.
QBut you, personally, did you send any reports with reference to the annihilation of thousands of people, which you did? You, personally, did you submit any report?
AThe reports came from the Einsatz Kommandos to the Einsatz Group, and the Einsatz Group informed the RSHA.
QWhere to?
AThey went to the Chief of the SIPO personally.
QPersonally?
AYes, personally.
QWhat was the name of this police officer? Can you name his name? Can you tell his name?
AAt that time, Heydrich.
QAfter Heydrich?
A I didn't experience what happened after that, but that was the standing order.
QI am asking of you whether you continued to submit reports after Heydrich.
AAfter Heydrich's death I was no longer serving, but the order, of course, continued in effect.
QHave you any information whether the reports were continuing after Heydrich left or were discontinued?
ANo.
QThe order on the annihilation of the Soviet people, was it in conformity with the policy of the German Government or was it against it? Do you understand the question?
AYes. One must, however, discriminate. The order for the liquidation came from the Fuehrer of the Reich and it waste be carried out by the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler.
QBut was it in conformity with the policy which was conducted by the German Party and the German Government, or was it contrary to it?
APolitics is already activity. It was a policy that was determined by the Fuehrer. If you ask whether this activity corresponds to the idea of National Socialism, then I should deny that.
QI am talking about the practice. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QI understood you to say that objects of value were taken from the Jewish victims by the Jewish Council of Elders.
AYes.
QDid the Jewish Council of Elders settle who were to be killed?
ANo.
QHow did they know who was to be killed?
AThe Jewish Council of Elders determined who were Jews and registered them.
QAnd when they registered them did they take their valuables from them?
AThat was done in various ways. As far as I remember, the Council of Elders was given the order to collect valuables.
Q So the Jewish Council of Elders wouldn't know whether or not they were to be killed?
AThat is true.
THE PRESIDENT:We will adjourn now until five minutes past two. (Whereupon at 1250 hours the hearing of the Tribunal adjourned to reconvene at 1405 hours).
Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal, in the matter of:
The United States of America, the French Republic, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, against Hermann Wilhelm Goering, et al, Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 January 1946, 1400-1700, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.
(TESTIMONY OF OTTO OHLENDORF, CONTINUED) BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle):
QWhen you spoke of the written agreement between the leaders of the Einsatz Groups and the Army, do you know whether or not the functions and purposes of the Einsatz Groups were described in the agreement? Did the agreement say what the Groups were going to do?
AI cannot tell that exactly.
QDo you understand the question?
AYes. I cannot say that exactly, whether there was a general sentence in the agreement regarding the Security Police activity in this operational sphere, but I am certain that regarding the activity of liquidation, there was nothing said.
QYou stated that there had been a general order for the liquidation of all Jews. Was that order in writing?
ANo.
QDo you know who gave the order?
AIs this question regarding the activity of the Einsatzgruppe?
QYes.
ARegarding the Einsatzgruppe, the order same through Himmler, Heydrich, Streckenbach to the Einsatzgruppe verbally, and the second time repeated by Himmler personally.
QDid a similar order go to the Army?
AIn this form I am not conscious of this order.
THE PRESIDENT:Now, do any of the Defendants Counsel wish to crossexamine this witness?
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR.NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Keitel):
QWitness, you said that several weeks before the beginning of the Russian campaign, there were conferences regarding the missions or activities of the Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzkommandos.
Were you personally present at these conferences?
AMay I confirm that, according to my recollection, the main theme was not the mission of the Einsatzgruppe but the structure of the mobile units for an activity in the scope of the operating units of the Army.
QIn other words, the concern was missions within the sphere of the Army?
AYes.
QYou testified that the written agreement between RSHA on one hand and the OKW and OKH on the ether was made. Are you familiar with the distinction between the OKH and the OKW?
AYes.
QWho from OKW was present at these conferences?
AI cannot mention names because I personally was not present, but these conferences were led by Heydrich on one hand and by his deputy Schellenberg, on the other side.
QSchellenberg said in an affidavit that was presented here he talked about the question and he mentioned General Quartiermeister Wagner as that person with whom he was dealing. Can you remember whether this was true at these conferences, the conferences of which you are speaking?
AGeneral Quartiermeister Wagner was one of the few names that I remember from these conferences as a name that was mentioned in the conferences.
QIt is known to you that General Quartiermeister Wagner was not connected with OKW. You cannot mention any personality which was really representative of OKW?
ANo, I cannot. I only said that I remembered the letterhead OKW-OKH. I remember these letterheads, and the double title meant to me that there were some conferences with Canaris, and some agreement with Canaris would be material in this agreement, and the letterhead was strange to me, and I explained the letterhead that way. There was a matter of plot connected with this. A general letterhead, OKW-OKH, there was no such thing.
QIn this case, there must have been a typewritten copy?
AYes, there was a copy of this involved, as I remember it.
QDo you know which signatures this document carried that you remember?
AI can't remember; I'm sorry.
QOne of the Judges already put the question that naturally follows on the receipt of such an agreement certain orders would follow. In one of these orders perhaps the name OKW was mentioned or the signature?
AI don't know which orders you mean.
QWhen there is some agreement between two different institutions, RSHA and OKW, naturally that office which will Carry through the things that were discussed, and they have to be put into a certain form, and then military orders will be carried out through that. Is such an order known to you, originating from OKW?
AThere were orders from the Army. These orders did not come to me. I only received my orders or wishes from the Army.
QFrom the Army or from your superior. Therefore, between you, as the leader of this Einsatzgruppe, and the OKW, as an institution, there was no direct connection?
ANo direct connection. All I know is that individual orders came in the regular channels to the OKW.
QIf you know that, can you tell me to which office, because, after all, OKW covered many?
AI would like to assume in the final analysis to Canaris.
DR. NELTE:I thank you.
QIn your position as Chief of the SD, you will probably be able to give us a picture about the confidence to be placed in the members of the Cabinet and the ability to keep confidential the most important matters. Please answer this question: Whether the order which is under discussion today regarding the liquidation according to your opinion, was born or originated in the Reichscabinet and whether this order, according to your opinion, was made known to the individual members?
A I am convinced both questions can be answered with "NO". Dr. KUBUSCHOF (Counsel for the Reichscabinet). In addition, I'd like to ask the witness a few questions for the Defendant Speer, for Counsel for Speer is absent and I have undertaken to do this matter for him.
QIs it known to you that the Defendant Speer, contrary to the decrees of Hitler, took measures to prevent the destruction of industrial and other institutions?
AYes.
QThat these measures covered the interior and the occupied countries, such as Upper Silesia, and so forth?
AI believe that the time mentioned, as far as I know, was so late that excepting a few spheres in the West, the East was not essential.
QAnother question, that you perhaps may know. Do you know that the Defendant Speer in the middle of February of this year prepared an attempt on Hitler's life?
ANo.
QDo you know that Speer undertook to turn Himmler over to the Allies so that he could face his responsibilities and possibly could shield other people who were innocent?
ANo. DR. KUBUSCHOF: This question will be certified through another witness later.
QDo you have a clear picture of the 20th of July?
AIn large measure.
QIs it known to you that in the circle of the assassins of the 20th of-July, the Defendant Speer was to be kept on as Minister? Do you know any particulars?
AThe people involved on the 20th of July-- I only know that there was a plan of organization and that he was to be in the Department of Armament.
QDo you believe that this plan of the assassins of the 20th of July may be brought back to this: That the Defendant Speer, according to his activity, was, not only in these circles, but otherwise, was considered an expert and a non-political man?
A The question is hard to answer. It is very difficult not to be considered political when you are so close to the political circles of the Reich, and perhaps the most important, the most essential factor from whom decisions evolved.
On the other side, we knew that Minister Speer was not considered a completely political man.
BY DR.MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo):
QDo you know that in April of 1933 the Gestapo was created in Prussia?
AI don't know the month but the year.
QDo you know what the purpose of the institution was?
ATo fight political opponents which could be dangerous to the State.
QDo you know how this institution was originally meant only for Prussia and extended over the rest of the Reich?
AEither in the year 133 or in the year 134, our State received this institution as a political measure. These political police were established in 1934 or '35, as I recollect, put under the Reichsfuehrer at Essen, and he was to be the political chief, and they were to be under his jurisdiction. The first comprehensive office was the Prussian Gestapo.
After the creation of the main office of the Security Police, the matters of authority were given over to Heydrich and the RSHA carried out the orders.
QWho instituted this in the various countries?
AI can't tell you.
QDo you know if before 1933 there was a similar institution of political police?
AYes, that was present, as far as I remember. For instance, in Berlin, I believe there were institutions like that.
QDo you know about the spheres of activity of these institutions before '33?
AOn the whole, the same.
QDo you know about how the personnel of the Gestapo was set up? The Gestapo police seems to have been something new. It was not a taking over of the old personnel.
AWhen I heard of the State Police, it was surely such that the experts of the Criminal Police were taken over and that the leading men in the State Police offices, that is, in the regular offices of the State Police, for the most part came from the inner administration, and they were taken from the inner administration of the country, and the same thing would hold true for the experts of Amt 4 and the Gestapo.
QYou said that the officials were commanded-
AI did not say to the lart part but for a part.
QWas there for some members of the Gestapo the possibility to protest or not to go into the Gestapo if they did not wish to?
APositive resistance I would not agree to. Some of them probably adroitly protected themselves, but if anyone was in the inner circle and he was commanded, then as an official he had to go and serve,
QThe members of the Gestapo, were they exclusively or not officials?
ADuring the war, probably not, but on the whole they were. As far as they were experts they were officials, but in their training they were not officials.
Q Can you tell me about the approximate number of the Gestapo toward the end of the war?
Can you give me that figure?
AI estimate total membership, including all, about 30,000.
QThere were within the Gestapo a large percentage of officials who were administrative officials--who were administrative officials who didn't have any executive powers?
AYes.
QAnd what was that percentage of these who were just administrative officials?
AWe have to consider that in this number all the help was included, including girls, and it is not possible for me to give a relative number at this time. But surely the No. 1 experts--one to three. That ratio would not be too high.
QDo you know anything about who was responsible for it?
APohl was responsible for the concentration camp leadership.
QDid the Gestapo have anything to do with the leadership and with the administration of the concentration camps?
AAccording to my knowledge, no; they did not have anything to do with that.
QThen, according to the concentration camps, there were no Gestapo people active, or active in the measures which took place there?
AAS far as I know, from the periphery of the concentration camps, the state police were only examining magistrates present.
Q was the Gestapo in any form involved in the mass murders that you mentioned this morning?
AOnly as the other people that Were present in the Einsatz Group.
DR. MERKEL:I ask the Tribunal, after the return of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, to give me the opportunity to question this witness again, because I am faced with the information received from Kaltenbrunner.
THE PRESIDENT:I think that the Tribunal will be prepared to allow you to put further questions at a later stage.
DR. MERKEL:Thank you.
DR. EXNER (Counsel of the General Staff and the OKW):
QYou mentioned the conferences which took place with the OKW which later led to an agreement between OKW and OKH on one side, and RSHA on the other, and I am interested in this point: Can you tell us--can you confirm that at these conferences there was a discussion regarding the killing of Jews?
AI cannot give you anything concrete, but I do not believe it.
QIn addition, you told us that the Commander-in-Chief of the Eleventh Army knew about the liquidations, and I'd like to ask do you know anything regarding the other commanders of the other armies?
AIn general, they must have been informed through the speech of the Fuehrer before the beginning of the Russian campaign.
QThat is a conclusion that you drew?
AIt is not a conclusion; it is the repetition of the contents of the speech which, according to Himmler, Hitler gave to the commanding generals.
QYou told us about decrees or directives which the Commanding General of the Eleventh Army gave. What kind of decrees were they?
AOne, I talked about the commanding general in the case of Nikolayev, and the directive at that time was that the liquidation was to take place within two hundred miles of the headquarters. The second time I did not talk about the commander-in-chief but from the oberkommando at Simferopol, and I spoke about it, but I couldn't tell you with certainty from whom this plea or request to accelerate the liquidation at Simferopol came.
QThat is the question that I would like to put to you: With which person of the Eleventh Army did you confer?
AI personally did not confer with anyone, because I was not the person concerned with that question, but the oberkommando of the Army dealt with the local authorities on that, either through the commanding army station or office which dealt with the Einsatz Commando and was in contact with it, I-C or I-CAO, or from the staff of OQ.
QWho gave directives for the march?
AThe directives for the march came, as a rule, from the chief of the day.
QAs the commander-in-chief at that time you mentioned Mannstein. Was there an order in this matter that was signed by von Mannstein?
AI cannot remember any such order, but on the march there were oral conversations with Mannstein and the chief of staff and myself.
QAbout the execution of the march?
AYes.
QYou said that the Army was against these liquidations. Can you tell me any more just how this was evidenced?
ANot the Army but the leading personalities were against this liquidation.
QAnd how did you know that or recognize that?
AIn general discussions. Not only the leading personalities of the Army; they were not the only people against this, but a great part of those who had to carry out these liquidations.
DR. EXNER:Thank you.
PROF.KRAUS (Counsel for Defendant Schacht):
QDo you know the personnel records regarding Schacht?
ANo.
QDo you know why, after the 20th of July, Schacht was arrested and put into a concentration camp?
AProbably it was the incidents of the 20th July were favorable to put Schacht, who was inimical to the Party, and to take him in this way, because he was connected in this matter and could be -
QThen Defendant Schacht was known to you as inimical to the Party?
AYes, especially at least since the year 1938--1937 or 1938.
QSince the year 1937 or 1938. And you had the suspicion that he was active on putsches?
AI didn't personally, because I wasn't concerned with these matters, but he was under suspicion because of his inimical position, as far as I know. But this suspicion did not ripen or mature.
Q Can you tell me who was responsible for the arrest of Schacht?
AThat I can't say.
QThen you don't know whether the arrest came through the Fuehrer or Himmler or through a lesser office?
AIt is impossible through a lesser office.
QThen you assume through the Fuehrer?
AAt least by Himmler.
DR.STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering):
QIf I heard correctly, you said at the beginning of 1933, after the taking up of power by Hitler, the Gestapo was created in Prussia, but before that time there was an institution which had a similar mission in Prussia; for instance, especially in Berlin.
AIt was against National Socialism and the other way around, yes.
QIt had the mission to protect the state against political enemies. You said further, in 1933, after the taking up of power, the other countries of Germany then in 1933, after the taking over of power in the other countries or states of Germany, a political police was instituted?
AYes, in the year 1933-1934.
QThen the political police which was created after 1934 -- it was put into a comprehensive scope under Himmler?
AAt first they were not drawn together, but Himmler became the chief of all the countries -- of the police of all the countries.
QNow, the Prussian Gestapo was considered a leader only before 1934? After Himmler took over the leadership it wasn't considered a model?
AI do not believe that the Prussian State Police which Reichsmarshal Goering led was not considered a model for the rest of the countries.
DR.KRANZBUEHLER (Counsel for Defendant Raeder): I am speaking for Admiral Raeder.
QYou just said that the speech of the Fuehrer before the commanders-in-chief in which the Fuehrer instructed the commanders-in-chief regarding the liquidation of Jews -- which conference do you mean by that?
A A conference shortly before the Russian campaign which took place with the commanders-in-chief.
QAnd how about the Wehrmacht commanders-in-chief?
ANo.
QWere you there?
ANo. I repeat what I heard in a conversation with Himmler.
QAnd this conversation with Himmler: was that before many people or was it personal?
AIt was a personal conversation.
QPrivate conversation. Did you have the impression that Himmler repeated facts, or do you consider it possible that he told you for your difficult task -- a pep-talk, so to speak?
ANo, The conversation took place much later and did not come from such motives, but Himmler wanted to give expression that some of the Wehrmacht generals could not deviate from things that had taken place and were taking place, because they had the same responsibility as all the rest.
QAnd when did this conversation take place?
AIn May, at Flensburg, 1945.
DR.SERVATIUS (For the Organization of the Political Leaders):
QRegarding the order of the apparatus t he RSHA had to carry through its measures according to the local offices, was there a special channel or were the channels of the organization of the political leaders involved, or was the channel through the leadership corps? Did the orders go to the gauleitung or kreisleitung?
AI don't know about that. I do not consider it possible.
QYou Consider it impossible that the kreisleitung was informed?
AYou asked me what the channels were; you did not ask me whether they were informed.
QWere these departments or offices informed on the others?
AEither inspectors or Gestapoleiter or SA leaders were considered political experts of the gauleiter, and these officials or people were obligated to give the gauleiter reports on the activity. Just how intensively that was carried on I don't know.
I had no way to check, but it depends on the activity and the kind of cooperation that went on between the gauleiter and his experts.
But it is not considered possible that the state police on the whole could not carry on this activity without the responsible Party members -- without their knowledge.
QDid the reports from low to high work in the same way?
AThe cadets were without the state police, I am convinced, because these were matters of the Reich; that is, such intensive working together would not exist as between the gauleiter and his men.
QI also represent the Defendant Sauckel. Do you know about the putting in of alien workers?
ASuperficially.
DR.BABELL (Counsel for the SS and SD):
QThis morning you mentioned numbers of figures from 3,000 and 30,000 of the Security Police. I would now like to ascertain how these figures are to be interpreted or to be taken. The 3,000 members of the Security Police which you mentioned this morning, are they the complete personnel at that time, or are they only those parties which were active mobile units that you mentioned?
ANo. Altogether the total number, including all personnel, including female help.
QAnd the 30,000 which you talked about a little while ago, some were honorary positions which were used only in the interior -- only in Germany?
AYes, as a rule, yes; and essential parts where there were not SS or not Party members.
QHow large was the part of the mobile units which took part in the executions for the SD?
ASD had no mobile units. There were only particular members of the SD and they were commanded to work with these offices.