Q To the best of your knowledge and recollection, please tell the Tribunal exactly what was contained in that written agreement.
AThe first part of this agreement began with the quotation of a decree by the Fuehrer.
It read as follows:
"For the safety of the fighting units before the campaign into Russia, that is at hand, all means are to be used to keep the rear safe and protected.
Based on this thought, with every means resistance is to be broken.
To support the fighting power of the Army for this task, the Security Police and the Security Service are to be called in."
If I remember correctly, as a special example of something to be protected or secured, the security of the so-called routes of supply was mentioned.
QDo you recall anything else contained in that agreement?
AThe second part of this agreement, the organization of the Army groups was mentioned.
QWhat was said about that?
AAnd the construction and the use of the Einsatz groups and the Commandos of the SD was discussed.
Four different spheres of influence or space were used or illustrated.
I remember as follows: first, the front area; secondly, the operational zone -- and it was built up into an Army area and a rear area -- third, the rear Army area; and fourthly, thearea for the civil administration that was to be put up, the Reichkommissariats.
To cover these different spheres, or areas, the spheres of influence and command were set down distinctly.
In the front, or fighting areas, the Einsatzkommandos of the SD were operating tactically and as troops.
That means they were exclusively under the jurisdiction of the Army.
In the operational zones there was only a troop subsidiary juris diction, and these rules were to apply in the third zone; and in the fourth group, the Reichkommissariat, the same rules and regulations were to apply as in the areas of the Reich proper.
In the third part of the agreement was set forth what was to be included under tactical and troop service regulations.
That meant the phrase "Truppendienstlich" was clarified, and by that we meant the disciplinary, and the matter of taking care of the welfare of the Army.
Special mention was given that the Truppendienstliche hierarchy was to take care for the supply, especially as to gasoline, food and technical reports that were to come in.
All these things were included.
QHave you now told us everything, which you recall, about that agreement?
A Yes; I cannot remember any more.
COL. AMEN: If Your Honor please, that is all. THE PRESIDENT: Does the English prosecution have any questions to ask? SIR' DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No. THE PRESIDENT: Does the Russian prosecution have any questions to ask? COL. POKROVSKY: No. THE PRESIDENT: Does the French prosecution have any questions to ask?
(No response). THE PRESIDENT: Do the Defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KURT KAUFFMANN (Counsel for the Defendant Kaltenbrunner):
QIs it correct that Dr. Kaltenbrunner was your superior?
ADr. Kaltenbrunner was my immediate superior.
QUntil what time?
AFrom the 30th January of '43 until the end.
QDo you know his attitude on important questions of life, of National Socialism, as far as the Jewish treatment or question of the treatment of the Church?
AI personally did not have a chance to converse with him on these problems. What I know about him is the result of a few special personal observations.
QDid you receive original orders of Kaltenbrunner's that covered executions of saboteurs or concentration camp people?
ANo. All I know about it is the oral directives or orders that he sent to the Amt IV chief. These I know about, those orders.
QDid Kaltenbrunner ever indicate to you that he had agreed with Himmler on everything concerning concentration camps, and that everything that concerned the executive power was to be taken away from him, and that all that was to remain with him was the SD, as a message service, and this message service he wanted to develop to get the necessary critical faculties, which were lacking?
A I do not know about any such agreement, and what I found out about facts later is to the contrary.
QI have to ask you to keep the record straight, because you gave a negative answer. Which facts do you mean?
AI mean, for instance, one fact, that I agreed very, very reluctantly to the Reichsfuehrer SS, that concentration camps were not to be evacuated. Kaltenbrunner, in direct contact with Hitler, circumvented this decree in order to appear in a better international light.
QWere there any international agreements on that, which could be applied to existing laws, or that would be concerned with international agreements?
AI would like to interpret it in the following manner: that if international personalities gave the binding word to allied powers not to have the concentration camps evacuated, it was binding according to human law.
QThat do you mean by evacuated?
ABefore the enemy could approach, to have them arbitrarily evacuate and to have them transposed to other parts of Germany.
QThat was your opinion?
AThat no evacuation should take place, because human right did not coincide with that.
QYou did not want the concentration camps to be given over to the approaching enemy?
AYes.
QDid you know that your activity could be conclusive to have suffering brought on many people, and the people who were per se innocent?
AI didn't quite understand the question. Will you please repeat it?
QDid you ever think that your activity, and the activity of your coworkers, might be the cause for many people -- let us say Jews -- suffering greatly even though these people were innocent?
AI cannot imagine that the activity of my office would cause any such thing.
I was merely an information center.
QThen your information center had no connection to such crimes?
ANo.
Q Then in this point Kaltenbrunner would not be accused?
AYes, because he was the Chef of Amt IV of the State Police.
QI asked in this point, and by that I meant your sector; your department.
AI only represent the sector of Amt VI and Amt Mil.
QBut Kaltenbrunner was the Chief of the Amt section at the same time?
AKaltenbrunner was the Chief of the RSHA and the eight offices, or amts, were subsidiary to it. One or two of them I headed, and they were Amt VI and Amt Mil, and these two offices had nothing to do with the executive power of the State Police.
THE PRESIDENT: What I understood you to say was that you were only in a branch which was an information center; is that right?
THE WITNESS:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:And that Kaltenbrunner was your immediate chief; is that right?
THE WITNESS:Kaltenbrunner was the chief of the RSHA.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, he was the Chief, not only of your branch, but of the whole organization.
THE WITNESS:Yes, that's right.
DR. KAUFFMANN:I would like to question this witness later on. I would like to reserve the right to question this witness later on, after I talk with Kaltenbrunner. QUESTIONS BY DR. KUBUSCHOF (Counsel for Von Papen):
QIn the summer of '43, were you in Ankara; and did you at this time pay a visit to the German Embassy?
AYes.
QDid you, at this visit, discuss Germany and criticize German foreign policy in various ways, and at that point mention that it was absolutely advisable to have better connections with the Holy See; while at that time, Ambassador von Papen said: "That is only advisable then, according to the demands that I have made repeatedly, that the church policy be revised completely, and the persecution of the churches will cease"?
AYes, the content of the conversation is right, and in the same sense I talked with the then Ambassador, von Papen. QUESTIONS BY DR. THOM (Counsel for Rosenberg):
QYou said a little while ago that the same regulations existed in the realm of the civil administration as in the Reich.
AI said they were to apply.
QPlease answer my question again.
AI will repeat: I reproduced the agreement, but in the provisional areas of administration of the Reichskommissariat, the same regulations existed as far as the armed SD was concerned, and these applied in the same way as in the Reich.
Q Do you know through whom that was carried out?
ANo, later on I did not concern myself with these questions. QUESTIONS BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for SS and SD):
QYou were a member of the SS and of the SD, and in leading positions-
THE PRESIDENT:Will you state, for the purposes of the record, which organization you appear on behalf of?
DR. BABEL:I represent the organizations of the SS and SD.
Q (Continuing) In the RSHA, there were two departments, the Security Police and SD; how were these two departments connected, and what was the purpose of the SD?
AThat is a question that I cannot answer with one sentence.
QPerhaps I can change the question and ask a concrete one: Was the SD used with the Einsatzgruppen in the East; in what scope, and with what tasks or missions were they charged?
AI believe that the point of emphasis was the use of the personnel in the East by the Security Police which was the State Police; and the Criminal Police was there; and only supplementary units from the personnel of the SD were used.
QHow large were these supplementary contingents? How large was the SD?
AI believe that I can estimate the figures: Excluding female help, the State Police -- perhaps 40 to 45,000; the Criminal Police -- 15 to 20,000; SD in the interior, that is, Amt III with its organizational subsidiaries -- 2 to 2,500; and SD beyond Germany -- that is my Amt VI -about 400.
QAnd how was the SD used in the East?
AI can't give you particulars, because that was a matter of the personal and civil administration, and it was under the chief of the Security Police.
QDid the figures you mentioned include male members of the SD, solely, or was the female help included?
AOnly male members. I excluded the female help.
Q Yesterday a witness mentioned approximately the same figure of 3,000, but he thought the female help was included.
AAs I said, I mentioned SD in the interior, 2 to 3,000.
QWhat was the hierarchy of the Waffen SS?
AAs to the hierarchy of the Waffen SS, I cannot give you a responsible answer, because I was not concerned with that question.
QYou were a member of the Waffen SS and of the SD.
AI was a member of the Waffen SS since January '45, according to higher orders, because I had large numbers of military men through Amt Mil, and I had to have military rank to cover my activities.
QDo you know what happened in other cases, also?
AThat question is beyond me.
DR. BABEL:Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY COL. AMEN:
QDo you know of any specific case where Kaltenbrunner ordered clearance of any concentration camp, contrary to Himmler's wishes?
AYes.
QWill you tell the Tribunal about that?
AI cannot give you the exact date. I believe it was the beginning of April 1945. The son of President Muesi of Switzerland had brought his father into Switzerland, and had returned by auto himself to the concentration camp at Buchenwald; and he wanted to call for a Jewish family which I had liberated personally. He came to the camp while we were evacuating it at top speed, and under the worst possible circumstances. Three days before, I had discussed and promised the non-evacuation of the camp to his father, and this declaration was also meant for Eisenhower; and since he had gone to Switzerland in the meantime, he was doubly disappointed and surprised because the promise was not kept. Muesi Jr. came to me personally in my office; was deeply insulted and accused me bitterly. I couldn't understand the circumstances, and immediately contacted the secretary of Himmler and protested against these proceedings. The actual fact, as mentioned to me by Muesi Jr. was certified as correct, but it was unexplained since Himmler had not given these orders, or was not supposed to have given these orders, and a halt was ordered immediately by all means.
Himmler personally certified the same over the phone. I believe it was on the same day, after an official meeting, I informed Kaltenbrunner of the state of affairs, and relieved his mind about this renewed breach of international promises. At this point of the conversation I paused, and the Chief of the State Police, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, entered into the conversation, and said that he, according to an order of Kaltenbrunner's, three days ago, had already begun the evacuation of the most important internees of the several camps.
Kaltenbrunner replied: "Yes, that is right.
A decree of the Fuehrer is involved, which was recently confirmed by him, that is, the Fuehrer, and all important internees, accord ing to that decree, were to be evacuated to the southern part of the Reich."
Then, in a cynical way, in dialect, he said to me: "Tell your old man"-that was Muesi, Sr. -- "there will still be enough left in the concentration camps, and you will have to be satisfied with that."
I believe that was on the 10th of April, 1945.
COL. AMEN:That is all, may it please the Tribunal. QUESTIONS BY THE TRIBUNAL (General Nikitchenko):
QCan you say right now what were the functions of the chief amt of the Security Police?
AThat I cannot answer in one sentence. I believe-
QWhat were the aims?
AThe RSHA was a comprehensive grouping of the Security Police; that means State Police.
QWe know about this organization on the basis of the documents which are at the disposal of the Court, but what were its functions?
AI just wanted, a minute ago, to explain its functions. Its functions were as follows: That was a matter of Security Police activity, Criminal Police activity, security measure, internally and in foreign countries; that is, in Germany and abroad.
QWould it be correct to formulate the functions as follows: to suppress those whom the Nazi Party considered its enemies?
ANo, I don't believe that. A statement of that type is too one-sided.
QBut all these functions were also performed.
AThey were, perhaps, in a certain part connected with the State Police.
QHas this part of the functions, then, been changed after Kaltenbrunner took office?
ANo, there was no change.
QHave those functions, to which you were referring right now, been changed since the time that Kaltenbrunner took office as Chief of the Security Police?
A The functions, as I pointed them out, did not change after Kaltenbrunner assumed office.
QI have one more question: What were the aims and purposes of the operation group which had been created on the basis of the agreement between the SD and the High Command?
AAs far as the agreement was covered at that time, the first part, as I mentioned before, the task was laid down to protect the rear of the troops, and to use all means against opposition and against resistance.
QTo repress or to do away with?
AThe words were: "All resistance is to be broken with every means".
QBy what means was the resistance suppressed?
AThe agreement did not mention nor cover this in any way. It was not discussed.
QBut you know what means were used for that suppression, do you not?
ALater I heard that with the bitterness of the struggle, the means were equally harsh, but that is only hearsay, as far as I am concerned.
QWhat does it mean more exactly?
AAs far as Partisan opposition was concerned, and as far as the civil population was concerned, there were many shootings that took place.
QIncluding the children?
AThat I didn't hear.
QYou haven't heard it?
A (No response).
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:Since Your Lordship was good enough to ask me whether I wanted to put some questions, I have had some further information, and I should be very grateful if the Tribunal would allow me to ask one or two questions. QUESTIONS BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
QWould you direct your mind to a conversation between the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, Gruppenfuehrer Nebe and Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, in the Spring of 1944, in Berlin at Wilhelmstrasse 102?
AYes.
A Yes.
QWith what was that conversation concerned?
AThis conversation, as far as I gathered, because I was not a party to it, concerned about 50 prisoners of war, English or American, that had been shot. This conversation, in its particulars, was as follows, to the best of my recollection: There was a request on the part of the International Red Cross to get information on the whereabouts of 50 American and English prisoners of war.
They were interested in getting information about their whereabouts. This request for information by the International Red Cross seemed to have come in through the Foreign Office, to the Chief of the Security Police and SD.
QJust one moment. Was it already in the form of a protest against the shooting of prisoners of war?
AI do believe it was in the form of a protest. From the fragments of the conversation I gathered that there was a conversation as to what form the shooting of the prisoners of war, which had already taken place, was to be explained.
QTo be explained?
AOr explained.
QDid Kaltenbrunner discuss this with Mueller and Nebe?
AKaltenbrunner covered this matter with Mueller and Nebe and since I only picked up fragments of the conversation, I heard it hurriedly that they wanted to cover details more thoroughly in the afternoon.
QDid you hear of any suggestions put forward as to what explanations should be given to cover the shooting of the prisoners of war?
AYes, Kaltenbrunner himself gave these instructions.
QWhat were the suggestions?
AThe large part was to be handled as individual cases; that they had perished through bomb attacks and then some, I believe, because of resistance, that is physical resistance and others persecution on their escape.
QYou mean shot while trying to escape?
AYes, shot in flight.
Q These were the excuses which Kaltenbrunner suggested?
AYes, those were the explanations that Kaltenbrunner suggested.
QNow, I want you to try and remember as well as you can about these prisoners. Does any number remain in your mind? Can you remember any number of prisoners that they were discussing about which these explanations arose or about how many?
A.I remember only that the number fifty was mentioned again and again but how the particulars went I cannot tell you because I just followed fragments of the conversation rather than the whole conversation.
Q.But the number fifty remains in your mind?
A.Yes, I hear fifty.
Q.Can you remember anything of the place or the camp in which these people had been, who were said to have been shot?
A.I cannot tell you under oath. There is a possibility that I might add a little bit.
It may have been Breslau but I cannot tell exactly, as a fact.
Q.And can you remember anything of what service the people belonged to?
Were they Air Force or Army? Have you any recollection on that point?
A.I believe all of them were officers.
Q.Were officers?
A.Yes.
Q.But you cannot remember what service?
A.No, that I cannot tell you.
SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: I am very grateful to the Tribunal for letting me ask these questions.
COLONEL AMEN:That is all for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well, the witness can go then.
COLONEL AMEN:I wish to call as the next witness Alois Hoellriegel.
THE PRESIDENT:What is your name?
THE WITNESS:Alois Hoellriegel.
THE PRESIDENT:Will you take this oath?
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath in German)
THE PRESIDENT:You can sit down if you want to.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q.What position did you hold at the end of the war?
A.At the end of the war I was at Mauthausen.
Q.Were you a member of the Totenkopf SS?
A.Yes; in the year 1939 I was taken into the SS.
Q.What were your duties at the Mauthausen Concentration Camp?
A.I was, until the winter of '42, with a guard company and I stood guard. From '42 until the end of the war I was in the inner service of the concentration camp.
Q.And you therefore had occasion to witness the extermination of inmates of that camp by shooting, gassing and so forth?
A.Yes, I saw that.
Q.And did you make an affidavit in this case to the effect that you saw Kaltenbrunner at that camp?
A.Yes.
Q.And that he saw and was familiar with the operation of the gas chamber there?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you also have occasion to see any other important personages visiting that concentration camp?
A.I remember Pohl, Gluecks, Kaltenbrunner, Schirach and Gauleiter Steyermark.
Q.And did you personally see Schirach at that concentration camp at Mauthausen?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you remember what he looks like so that you could identify him?
A.I believe that he has probably changed during the last times but I would certainly remember him.
Q.How long ago was it that you saw him there?
A.That was in the fall of '42. Since that time I have not seen him Q. Will you look around the Courtroom and see whether you can see Schirach in the Courtroom?
A.Yes.
Q.Which person?
A.In the second row, the third person from the left.
COLONEL AMEN:The affidavit to which I referred was U.S.A. Exhibit
THE PRESIDENT:What is the PS number?
COLONEL AMEN: 27535 PS.
BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q.I now show you a copy of document Number 2641 PS in this case, and ask you whether you can recognize the place where those individuals are standing?
A.As far as it is able to be recognized -- and I cannot determine whether it is next to the concentration camp Mauthausen.
Q.Would you repeat that answer please?
A.As far as it is recognizable I cannot say for sure whether that is the quarry near the concentration camp Mauthausen.
This quarry could be at any other place.
I would have to have more of a view but I believe that visits of the Reichsfuehrer and other people took place but I believe that this is the quarry Wienergrabau.
Q.Very good. Just lay the picture aside for a moment.
Did you have occasion to observe the killing of inmates of the concentration camp by pushing them off a cliff?
A.Yes.
Q.Will you tell the Tribunal what you saw with respect to that practice?
A.I remember that was in the year '41. I was on guard duty and I was on the tower which covered the quarry Wienergraben and I observed in the morning about 6 to 8 prisoners and then two SS men were with them.
One was Spatznecker and the other was Eichenhofer.
They moved -
THE PRESIDENT:Wait, you are going too fast. You should go slower.
A. (continuing) Their actions were rather strange and they were approaching the precipice near the quarry, I saw them from my watchtower.
I saw that these two SS men were beating the prisoners and I could immediate ly recognize that the purpose was to throw them down or have them thrown down the precipice, either by themselves or have them pushed down.
I noticed that one of the prisoners was kicked and it was motioned to him that he was to cast himself down from the precipice.
The prisoner in desperation, because of the beatings, cast himself down imeediately.
Q.How steep was the precipice?
A.I estimate thirty to forty meters.
Q. was there a term used amongst you guards for this practice of having the prisoners fall from the top of this precipice?
A Yes. They were called paratroopers.
COLONEL AMEN: The witness is available to other Counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Russian Prosecutor or French Prosecutor or Defense Counsel have any questions?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR.SAUTER (Counsel for Defendant von Schirach):
QI am interested in the following points.
You said a little while ago that in 1939 you were taken into the SS?
AThat is true.
QPlease repeat your answer.
AThat is right. On the 6th of September, 1939, I was taken into the SS at Ebersberg, Linz.
QDid you have no connections with the Party before then?
AYes. In April, 1938, I enlisted with the Civil SS because I was out of work and without any support, and I thought I will go to the Civil SS and I will get work.
QThen, if I understood you correctly, you probably went to the SS in 1939, because already in 1938 you had volunteered your services?
AI cannot exactly declare that. Many were taken into the Army and they were in the General SS.
QAre you Austrian?
AYes.
QThen at that time you lived in Austria?
AYes, Graz.
QI am interested in a certain point for Schirach. You saw the Defendant at Mauthausen.
How often did you see him there?
AI distinctly remember once.
QOnce?
AYes.
QWas Mr. von Schirach alone at Mauthausen, or was he together with others?
A He was with other gentlemen. There was a group of about ten people, and among them I recognized von Schirach.
QBut we understand it was twenty people rather than ten.
AI didn't at that time know that I would have to use these figures and I did not count the people.
QI am interested in this point because the Defendant Schirach told me it had been a special visit and inspection tour, an official inspection tour of the concentration camp at Mauthausen, and there had been a meeting of the economic experts of the east.
AI remember that this group came with von Schirach and Bachmeyer.
They entered the camp.
QYou know that this inspection had been publicized in the camp several days prior to this visit and that certain preparations had been made in the camp for this inspection.
AI cannot remember that. I cannot remember those preparations but I do remember it was in the evening.
I can't tell you the exact hour.
It was the evening count or roll-call.
The prisoners had assembled for roll-call and all the guards had to appear and I saw this group come in.
QYou didn't know the day before or didn't your co-workers know that an inspection was to take place the next day?
AI cannot remember anything like that.
QAnd didn't you notice afterwards that certain preparations had been made--certain preparations had been taken?
AI cannot remember that I noticed or saw any of these preparations.
DR. SAUTER:I have no further questions of this witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR.STEINBAUER(Counsel for Defendant Seyss-Inquart):
QYou mentioned an incident which, according to the concept of civilized people cannot be interpreted as anything but murder- the casting over a quarry, of people.
Did you report this to your superiors?
AThese incidents happened several times and it is to be assumed a thousand times that the superiors knew about this.
QIn other words, you did not report this. Is it true that on penalty of death, not only the internees, but the guards were permitted to report happenings of this sort to a third person?
AYes.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no other questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL AMEN:
QWould you just look at that picture again?
AYes.
QWill you look at it carefully and tell me whether that is the quarry underneath the cliff which you have just described?
AAs far as I can tell from this picture, and I assume one hundred per cent it is the quarry Wienergraben, but I would have to see more of the background.
I do not see enough, but I am pretty sure I can speak with certainty.
QDo you recognize the individuals whose faces appear in the picture?
AYes.
QWill you tell the Tribunal the ones which you do recognize?
AI recognize first of all Reichsfuehrer Himmler, next to him the Commandant from Mauthausen and way to the right Kaltenbrunner.
COLONEL AMEN: That is all, may it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can go and we will adjourn for ten minutes.
(Whereupon at 11.25 a recess was taken until 11.
33.)