Q These were not immatriculated?
Q You yourself were tattooed?
A Yes. They were taken to this red-brick building, which bore the letters B-a-d, that is to say, bath. There at the beginning they first were asked to undress, and they were given a towel before they went inside the so-called shower room. Later on, at the time of the great convoys, they didn't have time to simulate pleasantness at the arrival; they merely told them to undress and brutally took them away. Iremember a little Jewish woman who lived in Paris, yes, in the Republic section of Paris. They called her Little Mary. Little Mary was the surviving member of a family of nine. Her mother and her seven sisters and brothers had been gassed upon arrival. When I met her she was employed to undress the young babies before they were taken into the gas chamber. They took the people, once they were undressed, into a room which was somewhat like a shower room, and through an opening in the ceiling they let the gas capsules come into the room. An SS would watch through a porthole the effect produced. At the end of five to seven minutes, when the gas had completed its work, he gave the signal to open the doors, and then with gas masks, men who were internees also, came inside the room and took out the corpses. They told us that the internees must have suffered before dying, because they were clasping one another in clusters and it was very difficult to break them apart. After that a team would come along; their task was to pull gold teeth. And again when the bodies had been reduced to ashes they would sift the ashes to seek to recuperate the gold it was not enough. The SS had large holes dug by the internees. They would put wood in there, sprinkle it with gasoline, and then set it to flame. Then they hurled the corpses into these pits. From our cell we saw about forty-five minutes or one hour after the arrival of a transport, I would say, large flames coming out of the crematory, and the sky was reddened by the light of the pits, the burning pits.
One night we were awakened by horrible cries. We learned the following day, from the men who were working in the sonderkommando, special kommando, that is, the gas kommando, that on the day preceding, not having had enough gas, they had hurled the children alive in the furnaces. beginning of winter? with large-scale selections in the infirmary, because the system seemed to be the following. I can that, because the time I spent in Auschwitz I could note that myself; and others who remained there even longer than I have also noted the same facts. in men and women, and they sent them to Auschwitz. They only kept those who were strong enough to work throughout the summer. During that period naturally many died every day, but those who lived, who succeeded in holding on for six months, at the end of that time were so exhausted that they too went into the infirmary. It was at that time that the large-scale selections were made in the autumn in order not to have to feed during the winter useless mouths. Those who were too weak then were sent to the gas chamber. During Christmas 1944 -- no, 1943, Christmas 1943, when we were in quarantine, we saw, because we were opposite block twenty-five, we saw the women brought there, stripped naked, into block twenty-five. They they brought the trucks without any covering and they stacked the naked women on those lorries, as many as the lorries could hold. Then each time the truck would start the famous Hessler, -- who was at the trial, he was one of the condemned at Luneburg, -- ran behind the trucks and with his stick he would thrash the naked women who were being taken to their death. They knew that they were going to the gas chamber so they tried to escape. Theywere massacred. They tried to jump from the truck, and we from our own block could see the truck going by, and we heard the lugubrious clammer of all of these women who were going, knowing that they were going to be gassed. Many of them could have lived on. They had some slight desease like the itch or suffering from malnutrition, that was all.
the very moment they were taken off the train even without being counted, sent to the gas chambers. What about their clothing and their baggage? their luggage was arranged in separate blocks. But as far as the Jews were concerned, they had to leave everything on the platform of the station on arrival. They were stripped before entering and their clothing and everything that they had brought with them, and which was left on the platform, was taken to a large barracks; were gone over by the so-called Kanada Kommando there. These things were looked over, and some of the objects were sent to Germany, like jewels or fur coats and various such other objects.
and they were told that that was a sort of a ghetto, and they should take with them everything that they possessed. They therefore carried considerable wealth with them. I remember with regard to the Jewish women from Salonica, that when they were arrived they were given a postal card written thereon Waldsee. Waldsee was the name given at the place of origin. That place does not exist. Then there was a printed text that they were to send to their families saying "Everything is fine; we have work to do; we were well treated; we are waiting for your arrival." I myself saw such cards, and the block secretaries had the order to distribute them among the internees in order that they might fill them out and send them to their families. And I know that following these incidents families -- I know of that only with respect to Greece; I don't know whether it happaned elsewhere -- but in the case of Greece and also Salonica, whole families came over at the recruiting office in Salonica to go and join the people who had been sent into Germany; their only relatives who had been sent into Germany. arrive there.
Q Will you tell us about the Bohemian camps? wire, three metres apart, were two camps; one for Gypsies, which in 1944, about August or so, was completely gassed. These Gypsies came from all over Europe under the domination of Germany. On the other aide also there was the so-called family camp. They were jews from the ghetto of Theresienstadt who had been taken there. Contrary to our case, they had nothing to do nor were they shaved. Their clothes were not taken away from them, and they didn't have to work. They lived that way for about six months, and at the end of six months they gassed the whole family camp. And a few days later another camp was gassed, and these were Jews; and a few days later another large transport came from Theresienstadt, also Jewish families, and at the end of six months they too were gassed away as were the first. able to see when you were on the point of leaving the camp? Under what circumstances you left the camp.
Q When was that?
A We were in quarantine for ten months; from the 15th of July 1943, yes, until 1944, May 1944. And then for two months in the camp, and then we went to Revensbruch.
Q These were all the French women survivors of your convoy?
A Yes, that's right. From the Jewish woman who came from France in July 1944 we learned that a large campaign had been carried out by the London radio in which they spoke of our convoy, naming Marie Politzer, Helene SolomonLangevin, and myself. And following this we know that orders were given from Berlin to put the transport of French women under better conditions. We therefore were put in quarantine. That was a block situated opposite the camp outside the barbed wire. I must say, that it is to this quarantine that the forty-nine survivors owe their survival, because at the end of four months there were only fifty-two of us. Therefore, we could not have survived eighteen months of this regime had we not had the ten months of the so-called quarantine. This quarantine was organized because typhus was then in the camp. One could not leave the camp without being authorized to do so. You had to spend fifteen days in quarantine because of the typhus, and that was the normal duration from the incubation period for this type of typhus. Therefore, as soon as the papers arrived announcing that an internee was probably going to be set free she was sent to quarantine, where she remained until the order of liberation was completed. That sometimes took several months. During this period, the minimum of two weeks, there was a policy of liberating the common-law criminals and the German anti-social characters in order to send them as laborers in factories of Germany. It is therefore impossible to imagine that in Germany they could have been unaware of the fact that there were camps of concentration and what was taking place in those camps such as those women had come out of. And it is difficult to imagine that they had never spoken about it. Moreover, in the factories where the internees were working the team leaders were German civilians who were in contact with the internees, and they were able to talk to them.
had been free laborers at Siemens in Berlin -- they were with the supervisors whom they had known in Berlin. And right in our presence they told them what they had seen at Auschwitz. Therefore it is not imaginable that it was not known in Germany. was gripped when we saw that small group of forty-nine women. And we thought of the 250 who had come in eighteen months earlier. And it seemed to us that we were emerging from hell itself; and that for the first time one hope of survival was given to us.
Q Where were you sent then?
A When we came out of Auschwitz we were sent to Ravensbruch. There we were escorted to the NN block, which meant Nacht and Nebel, that is, incommunicado. In that block with us were Polish women, 7,000 or so, who were called the rabbits, because they had been used as guinea pigs. They selected from their transports the young girls who had straight legs and who were sound of body and they were exposed to various types of operations. Some of them had parts of their bones removed from the legs; others had inoculations. I could not tell what was employed. Among those who were the subject of experiments there was a very high mortality rate. So when they came to fetch the others they refused to go to the infirmary. They were led by force to the cells, and there the professor who had come from Berlin performed the operations upon them wearing his uniform without any sort of aseptic precaution; without putting on a blouse or washing his hands or anything. There are some survivors of these rabbits. They are still undergoing great suffering. They have running wounds now, and inasmuch as the treatment to which they were exposed is unknown it is very difficult to cure them.
Q These internees, were they tattooed on their arrival?
A No. No. No. At Ravensbruch we were not tattooed; but on the other hand we had to take gynecological examination, and it was then without precaution, and with instruments frequently diseased from contact with commonlaw criminals and political prisoners who were mixed together.
Russian women prisoners of war who had refused to work voluntarily in ammunition factories. They had been led because of that to Ravensbruch. As they persisted in their refusal they were subjected to all sorts of brutality, such as to make them stand in front of the block the whole day long without feeding them. Some of them were sent on a transport to the bunker and to the strafblock. In the strafblock and the bunker there were internees who refused to work in war factories.
Q You are now speaking of the prisons of the camp?
A I have visited the prisons of the camp. It was like any other prison; like any other civilian prison.
Q How many French women were put in that camp?
Q How many women were there all told? or more. There were executions in the camp. They were called -- the selection was made by the calling of numbers in the morning, and then they were sent to the commandant, and then one never saw them again. A few days later the clothing was brought back to the selection room where they kept part of the clothing of the internees, and after a while their tags would--their file would disappear from the filing room of the camp.
Q The system of internment was the same as in Auschwitz?
A No. In Auschwitz obviously quite visibly the purpose was extermination they did'nt worry about the total yield, they cared--all you had to do was to be able to stand up from morning to night; whether you carried one brick or ten bricks. We realized that the labor was insignificant. They used human beings as slaves; to really kill them. That was the purpose of the whole camp. It was a camp of selection. When the transports arrived at Ravensbruch they were shipped quite rapidly to ammunition factories, to powder factories, or to build landing fields, and to dig trenches.
To leave for the ammunition factories, this was the procedure: The factory managers came themselves, and accompanied by SS, to select the people they wanted. It seemed like a slave market. They would feel the muscle; they would look at the countenance of the inmate; and then they made their selection. Then they would pass a medical examination. They were stripped, of course, and they decided whether or not one was physically fit to go to work in the factories. After a while the medical examination was really a formality, because they took anyone. The work was most exhausting because of the lack of nourishment end of sleep, and also the twelve full hours of labor which had to be performed. Then in addition to that we had to stand roll call in the morning and in the evening. In Ravensbruch proper there was the Siemens factory where they manufactured telephone equipment and various instruments for Radio. Then there were shops inside of the camp for camouflage and for the fabrication of various utensils used by soldiers.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we better break off now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken from 1130 to 1140 hours.)
or Auschwitz? officials came to visit these camps?
Q You do not know whom?
Q Who are the guards at these camps? follow you.
AAt the beginning it was only SS men but from '44, the Spring of '44 on the young SS, many companies were replaced by elder men of the Wehrmacht at Auschwitz and at Ravensbrueck, also, we were guarded by soldiers of the Wehrmacht from 1944 on. Staff, the German Army was connected with the atrocities which you have described? could not be without their orders. Wehrmacht? Hungarian Jews who had been arrested on masse? You were in Ravensbrueck at that time?
Q So you can give testimony as to this period?
A Yes. There was no longer any room in the blocks and the prisoners were already sleeping four in a bed, so there was raised, in the middle of the camp, a large tent. In this tent staw was placed and the Hungarian women prisoners were led into this tent.
They were in a frightful condition. There were many frozen feet because they made a good part of the trip - they had been evacuated from Budapest and a good part of the trip they had made on foot in the snow. A great number had died on the way. died. Every day a squad came to fetch the corpses in the tent. One day, on coming back to my block
THE PRESIDENT: Madam, are you speaking of Ravensbrueck or of Auschwitz?
THE WITNESS: Now I am speaking of Ravensbrueck. It was in the winter of 1944, I think about November or December - I can't be too exact about this because in the concentration camps it is very difficult to give a precise date, since a day of torture followed a day of torture like the last. The monotony made it very difficult to keep track of the time. when it was being cleaned and I saw in front of it a pile of smoking manure. All of a sudden I realized that it was human manure, for the unfortunate women no longer had the strength to drag themselves to the comfort station and so they had to live in this filth. which the uniforms were made? This was the workshop of the camp wasn't it?
A Yes, it was called the "Schneiderei eins." They made two hundred trousers per day. There were two crews; one day and one night crew; twelve hours of work per crew. they were given a piece of bread. This afterwards was eliminated. The work was at a very rapid pace. The prisoners didn't even have time to go to the toilets. During the night and in the daytime, they were terribly beaten by the SS, the SS women as well as the SS men, because a needle broke or because the thread was of bad quality or because the machinery stopped or simply because these men or women didn't like their looks. that every movement was painful to them. Their brows were beaded with pers peration; they could hardly see.
When the amount of work was not reached the chief guard would beat the whole row of women one after another so that the last women would wait petrified with horror, waiting for their turn. The SS very seldom gave it and if the doctor dispensed the woman from work for a few days it very often happened that the sick woman was fetched in her bed by the SS to put put back at the machine.
The atmosphere was frightful because one couldn't open the windows because of the blackouts and there was no ventilation whatsoever. All those who worked at the "Schneiderei eins" after a few months would become skeleton-like; would begin to cough; their sight began to fail; they had nervous fits caused by the fears of the blows. Marie Rubiano, a young French girl, who had spent three years in the Kettbus prison, on arriving in Ravensbruecke had been sent to the "Schneiderei eins" and each evening she would tell me of her martyrdom. One day, exhausted, she was allowed to go to the Revier and on that day the German Schwester Erika was in a less bad humor than usual and she was sent to be examined. Her two lungs were very badly diseased. She was sent to the block of the tuberculars. This block was particularly terrible because tuberculars, not being considered as workers who could be recovered, they were not taken care of and there was not even personnel to wash them. There were hardly any medicines. less. She spent a few weeks there and she had not even the courage to struggle to live. I must say that the atmosphere of this room was particularly depressing. There were very many of them, several to a beds and beds in three tiers, in a superheated atmosphere, lying be-tween prisoners of different nationalities, so that they could not even talk to one another.
Also, the silence of this antechamber of death was broken only by the moans of the German women who did the services and from time to time by the smothered sobs of the little girl who was thinking of her mother, of her country that she would never see again. day, Dr. Winkelmann, the specialist of selections in Ravensbrueck, put her on the black-list and on the 9th of February, 1945, with seventy-two other tubercular women, six of whom were French, she was lifted into the truck for the gas chamber. and all the sick were sent to the gas chamber, all who seemed unlikely to recover so that they could be used for work. beside the crematorium. When the trucks came to fetch the prisoners we heard the sound of the motor through the camp and it would stop just beside the crematorium, whose chimney reached above the high walls of the camp. At the time of the liberation I went to this place and I visited the gas chamber, which was a wooden barracks, hermetically sealed and within there was still the unpleasant odor of the gas. The gas that was used -- I know in Auschwitz in any case -- was the same that was used to gas the blocks against lice. They left little pale green crystals as traces. After opening the windows of the block they were swept out. I know these details because the men used for the disinfection of blocks against lice were in contact with those who gassed human beings and they told them it was the same gas. in Ravensbrueck?
A No. At Block 10 there was likewise experimentation with white powder. One day the German Schwester Martha arrived in the block and distributed to twenty patients a powder. After this the patients fell into a deep sleep. Five or six were seized with fits of vomiting and this is what saved their lives.
In the course of the night little by little the sound of breathing stopped and the patients died.
I know this because I went every day to visit French women in this block, because two of the nurses were French and the woman doctor, Louise Le Porte of Bordeaux, could likewise testify to this.
Q Was it often that this happened? itself but the system was likewise used at the Jugendlager, called thus because it was a former reform school for young German delinquents.
Towards the beginning of the year 1944 Dr. Winkelmann, no longer satisfied with making selections in the Revier, these selections were likewise made in the blocks. All the prisoners had to answer roll-call in bare feet and show their chests and their legs. All those who were too old, ill, too thin, or whose legs were swollen with edma, were set aside, and then sent to this Jugendlager, which was a quarter of hour away from the camp of Ravensbrueck. I visited it upon the liberation. old women and the patients who could not work should be enrolled for the Jugendlager, where they would be much better off; where they would not have to work; where there would be no roll-call. We found out later, through some people who worked at the Jugendlager -- the chief of the camp was a woman I knew from Auschwitz, named Bensenvitz -- and from a few of these survivors, one of whom is Irene Auclaire, a French woman living in Drance 17, Rue de la Liberte, who was repatriated at the same time that I and of whom I had taken care after the liberation. Through her we found out details about the Jugendlager. the SS doctors who made this selection, were they acting on their own or were they obeying orders? Lukas, refused to participate in the selections and was withdrawn from the camp and from Berlin was sent Dr. Winkelmann, who replaced him.
Q Are youpersonally aware of this fact?
A He is the one who said it to the chief of the block when he left and Dr. Louise Le Porte.
the men of the camp at Ravensbrueck were in on the morning of the liberation? chronologically, this comes before. had left our camp, were put in blocks where there was no water and where there were no conveniences, on piles of straw on the ground, so close together that one couldn't pass between them, so that at night it was impossible to sleep because of the coming and going and the prisoners would dirty one another as they passed. The straw was rotten and swarming with lice. Those who could stand up would make the roll-call for several hours. In the month of February their coats were taken away from them, and they would continue to answer roll-call, which greatly increased the death rate. quart of retabaga soup and the only drink that they had for twenty-four hours was half a quart of tea. They had no water to wash nor to drink, nor to wash their eating utensils. could no longer stand up were placed. During the calls, periodically, the "Aufsehrein" would choose prisoners who would be undressed and who were allowed to keep only their shirts. Their coats were given back to climb into trucks and they would go off to the gas chambers. A few days later the coats would come back to the camp, that is to say, the clothing storeroom. There were marked "Mitwerder." The prisoners who worked at this store told us that "Mitwerder" did not exist, that it was a nomenclature for the gas chambers. sick would die like those in Block 10, of which I spoke a while ago.
THE PRESIDENT: The details of the witness' evidence as to Ravensbrueck seems to be very much alike, if not the same, as at Auschwitz. Wouldn't it be possible to now, after hearing this amount of detail, to deal with the matter more generally, unlessthere is some substantial difference between Ravensbrueck and Auschwitz.
M. DUBOST: I think there is a difference which the witness has pointed out to us, which is that in Auschwitz the prisoners were simply exterminated; that it was simply an extermination camp, whereas at Ravensbrueck they were interned to work, were exhausted with work to the point where they died.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are any other distinctions between the two, no doubt you will lead the witness, I mean ask the witness about those other distinctions.
M. DUBOST: I shall do so. (By M. Dubost) the men's camp was found at the time of the liberation and how many survivors there were?
number of volunteers, including myself to take care of them. They left us without water and without light. Fortunately the Russians arrived the following day. We therefore went to the men's camp and there we found a sight which is impossible to describe. They had been for five days without water. There were eight hundred seriously ill, three doctors and seven nurses, who were unable to pull the dead from the sick. Thanks to the Red Army we were able to transport these sick into clean blocks and to give them food and care. But unfortunately I can give the figure only for the French. hundred and fifty who were able to return to France; for the others it was too late in spite of the care we gave them. were they carried out?
A I did not assist at any executions. I know only that the last one that took place was on the 22 of April, a week before the arrival of the Red Army. The prisoners were sent, as I said, to the Kommandantur; then their clothes would return and their cards were taken out of the file. a part of a system? one has not been in them once because one can only cite examples of horror but one cannot give the impression of this slow monotony. When one asks what was the worst, it is impossible to answer because everything was atrocious. It is atrocious to die of hunger, to die of thirst, to be ill, to see around you all your companions dying without being able to do anything; to think of those children of one's country that one will never see again and at times we wondered ourselves if it was not a nightmare, so completely unreal did this life seem to us, so horrible.
We had a will for months and years; all that we could hope for was that a few of us would be able to come out to be able to tell the world what the Nazis were like. Everywhere as in Auschwitz, as in Ravensbrueck, the companions who were in other camps related the same facts; the systematic will, the implacable will to utilize men as slaves and when they could no longer work, to kill them.
Q Have you anything more to state?
M. DUBOST: If the Tribunal wishes to question the witness, she is at your disposal.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I have no questions.
DR. MARX: I speak for counsel of the SS, Attorney Babel. Attorney Babel is prevented this morning from appearing here, since he has to attend a conference with General Mitchell. questions dealing with this matter. BY DR. MARX:
Q Why were you arrested?
Q I didn't hear the answer.
Q Activity in the resistance movement. Now, a further question. Your testimony shows--please wait until my question is completed.
What preconceptions did you have, and what attitude did you take?
A What was that? What did you say? I don't understand the question.
Q What position did you occupy? Did you ever occupy an official position?
A Where?
Q For example, as a teacher or lecturer?
A Before the war?
A I don't see what the question has to do with that. I was a journalist.
Q Yes. The matter is thus: In your testimony you showed great fluency in style and expression, and I should like to know whether you had such a position as teacher or lecturer. so well that you are now in a good state of health?
A First of all, I was liberated a year ago. In a year once has time to recover. Then, next, I was ten months, as I indicated, in quarantine, and I had the luck not to die of typhus, although I had it and was ill for three months and a half. worked to make the roll-call of the Revier so that I didn't have to be subjected to the bad weather. Out of 250, only 52 of us were left at the end of four months. I was lucky enough to come back.
Q Yes. Does your testimony concern itself only with your own observations, or did you also give testimony that was hearsay?
A Each time I pointed out in my statement when this was the case. I never said anything that was not verified at the sources, and by several persons, but the major part of my statement is based on a personal experience. instance, that 700,000 Jews arrived from Hungary? that I was a friend of the Secretary of the Oberhaufseherin, whose name and address I gave to the Tribunal. according to the testimony of the Gestapo Chief, Eichmann.
A I don't want to argue with the Gestapo, I have good reason to know that what it declares is not always true.
Q How were you treated personally? Were you treated well?
What are your grounds for this statement? Lorraine soldiers of the Wehrmacht said to us, in the train, "If you knew where you were going you would not be in such a hurry"--.
THE PRESIDENT: Madam, you are going too fast.
A (Continuing): I have this information, on the one hand, from the fact that the Lorraine soldiers of the Wehrmacht, who transported us to Auschwitz, told us, "If you knew where you were going, you would not be in a hurry to get there." On the other hand, from the fact that the German women who came out of quanantine together and worked in factories had knowledge of these facts, and they all said that they would tell on the outside. worked, they were in contact with German civilians, as well as with the Aufseherin. They had relations with their families and friends, and often would tell what they had seen.
Q One more question. Until 1942 you were able to observe the behavior of German soldiers in Paris. Did these German soldiers behave altogether decently, and didn't they pay for what they took? massacred for me to wish to express an opinion on this subject.
DR. MARX: I have no further question to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have no further questions, there is nothing more to be said.
DR. MARX: Very well, I am finished.
THE PRESIDENT: There is too much laughter in the Court; I have already spoken about that.
DR. MARX: I simply wanted to make the provision for attorney Babel that he might later take the witness under cross-examination, if that is possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Babel did you say?
DR. MARX: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon; yes, certainly. When will Dr. Babel be back in his place?
DR. MARX: I presume that he will be back this afternoon. He is in the building. However, he must first read the protocol deposed by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: We will consider the question. If Dr. Babel is here this afternoon we will consider the matter, if Dr. Babel makes a further application.
Does any other of the Defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions of the witness?
(No response)
M. Dubost, have you any questions you wish to ask on re-examination?
M. DUBOST: I have no further questions to ask.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness may retire.
M. DUBOST: If the Tribunal will allow, we shall now hear from Mr. Veith, another witness. JEAN FREDERIC VEITH took the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you calling this witness on the treatment of prisoners in concentration camps?
M. DUBOST: Yes, Mr. President, and also because this witness can give us information on ill-treatment which certain war prisoners had been victim of in concentration camps. It is not merely a question of concentration camps, but of soldiers who had been transported to concentration camps and who had received the same treatment as civilians.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you won't lose sight of the fact that there has been practically no cross-examination of the witnesses you have already called about the treatment in concentration camps? The Tribunal, I think, feels that you could deal with the treatment in concentration camps somewhat more generally than the last witness.
Are you not hearing what I say?
M. DUBOST: Yes, I hear it very well.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that you could deal with the question of treatment in concentration camps rather more generally now, after we have heard the details from the witnesses whom you have already called.