papers, which appeared to observe that the Burgomeister, that is to say the Chief of the Community, an Alderman, in a principal Belgian city such as Gand, Liege, Charlekoy, and many cities of secondary importance--all these Aldermen and Burgomeisters were either in prison or had to appear before the War Council. men, who were appointed by the King and by the Belgian government before 1940, were all people who were deposed by the enemy, by means of groups of collaborators. It is quite important to observe this fact, because the Burgomeister
THE PRESIDENT: You are still going too fast, sir.
A (Continuing) It is of capital importance to verify that fact, because the Burgomeister extends directly from the central power. In other words, as soon as they applied the Fuehrer principle, he might interfere in all kinds of ways in the administrative life and in the political and social life. The Burgomeister can appoint an Alderman; the Alderman appoints the communal officials and employees. Now, since the Burgomeister belonged to that Party and was appointed by that Party, he appointed communal officials from members of the Party. They might refuse ration cards, or give to the police an order to give the list of communists, and so on. They could interfere in almost any way they wished, and by every possible means, in the communal activity of Belgium. everywhere there was truly a spy network of interference and intervention, subsequent to these events or facts. istration of the commune constituted a seizure of the national Belgium sovereignty? the Belgian constitution, that is to say, that sovereignty belongs to the people, and precisely, the Communal Council, who named aldermen and who appointed Burgomeisters. It was impossible for people to be appointed in the normal way. Therefore, the sovereignty of the Belgian people was directly stricken by these measures.
mation concerning the interference in education? education. By means of the General Secretary of Public Education, over which Germans exercised pressure, a commission was constituted which was entrusted with the task of purging the teaching books, or the books of teaching. It was forbidden to use class books in which the topic of the Germans having been in Belgium in the previous war was discussed. That was forbidden. Also, in the libraries and in educational institutions, they could sell those books only on one condition, that the book-seller whould tear out those chapters. indicated what should be stricken out or removed. secondary education. the very beginning of the occupation, and first, for motives which I don't have to explain here, which are well known, on the free University of Brussels. German Commissar. They had within their hands all the organization of the University and controlled it, even from the point of view of accounting. They imposed exchange professors, But difficulties began the day when, at Brussels, they required that they communicate be then all projects of new appointments of professors, just as the assignment of courser in the different matters were taught, The result was that at Brussels, because of this law which they arrogated, they wished to impose three professors, of whom two were obviously not acceptable. There was one, notably, who was a member of the Council during the occupation of 1914-1918, who had been condemned to death by his country. They wanted to place him as a professor in the University of Brussels.
Under these conditions the University refused to accept this professor, which was considered, by the occupying authorities, as being sabotage. deans, the principal men of the faculty, and a few professors who were especially well known as being anti-Facists, were arrested and imprisoned in the prison of Wieck. There were more serious circumstances. They were considered as hostages, and thus if any act whatsoever of sabotage or resistance occurred, they could, as hostages, be shot. to you, they wished to impose the presence of exchange professors. There were none at Louvain, because they refused categorically to receive them. Moreover, it appeared that these exchange professors were not, above all, scholars who came to communicate the result of their scholarly researches or their scientific work, but a great many of them were rather there to observe. That is, they were agents to observe for the occupying authorities.
Q. In relation to this, is it correct to say that the Belgian authorities were able to discover reports concerning one of these professors who was invited?
A. That is indeed the case. The Belgian authorities put their hands on a report of Professor von Mackinson, who was sent as an exchange professor to the University of Gand. In this report -- which is extraordinarily interesting to read for observations of a permanent nature which it contained concerning the different members of the faculty of Gand -- in this report we see that every one was observed and followed day by day, and it was pointed out whether they were for or against the local resistance, whether there was any relation with students who were Students V and V, or the Belgian resistance. The slightest gesture of all the professors was carefully noted, and, I add, with much exactness. It was a work of almost scientific nature.
Q. M. van der Essen, I explained this morning to the Tribunal different incidents which occurred in the University of Louvain, of which you were the General Secretary.
very facts themselves in relation to these incidents, notably, as far as the imprisonment of the Rector of Magnificus, van Waxenberg, is concerned.
A. Yes indeed, sir. There were serious difficulties which began in the University of Louvain after the appearance of the decree on forced labor, March 1943, by which students of the University were forced to accept compulsory labor, and I add, not in the territory of the Reich, but in Belgium. Only the result of this fact as a sort of advantage which they seemed to grant to university students was not admissible to Belgian patriots, for this very simple reasons: If the University students accepted to go and work in these Belgian factories, they automatically expelled workmen, who were sent to Germany and then the students took their place. firsts; and secondly, because from a social point of view, they felt they were jointly helping the workers and did not wish to cause them to go to Germany. pulsory work, and were considered as refractory. They hid themselves as best they could. Several went to the Maquis. required that the list of students be given to them, with their addresses, so that they could arrest them in their homes; or, if they didn't find them, they might arrest, instead of them, a brother or sister or father, or any member of the family, and thus impose collective penal punishment, and this was applied. devised measures which were truly brutal. Several times they used Dr. Tschake, Dr. Kalisch, I believe, though I am not sure of his name, and others, who came to make searches in the university offices, to put their hands on the list of students. As this list was carefully hidden, they had to go away empty-handed. Wayenberg, He had hidden the list in a place which he alone knew. He declared that he alone knew it, so that he would not endanger any of his colleagues and the members of the faculty.
went down, accompanied by the field gendarme, and they arrested the Rector in his office. They transferred him to the prison of Saint-Gilles in Brussels, where he was imprisoned. Shortly afterwards he appeared before a German military tribunal, which condemned him for sabotage, 18 months in prison. I must add, in truth, that he only did six months of his service, because the physician of Saint-Gilles had perceived that the health of the Rector was very weak and it would be dangerous to keep him longer without provoking a serious incident. Thanks to the multiple intervention of all sorts of authorities, they finally freed the Rector. However, the formally forbad him to set foot in the territory of Louvain, and they forced the University to appoint, immediately, another Rector. This was refused.
Q. Is it true if I say that the German authorities persecuted, more systematically, persons who belonged to the intellectual elite?
A. Yes, from that point of view there can be no doubt. I might give, as an example, the following fact. professors, physicians, lawyers, men of letters, who were taken as hostages and sent away. At the time when the resistance was provoking all sorts of sabotage and blowing up trains, these professors, and among them several of my colleagues of Liege and Brussels who escaped -- professors of universities were put in the first railway car after the locomotive, so that if an explosion took place, an act of sabotage, and blew up the locomotive, they would be killed immediately. I know a typical case, which will show you this. It was not a question of a pleasure trip. following scene. The locomotive passed over the explosives. The car in which they were, by an extraordinary chance, also went over it, and the second car, in which the German guards were, blew up and all the German guards were killed. that sinister camp of Breendonck, which you know, I believe. Several were deported, some for acts of resistance, others for motives which were entirely unknown, to camps in Germany.
Thus a professor of Louvain was sent to Buchenwald, to Dora, To Neuengamme, or to Grossrosen. I must add that it was not only professors in Louvain who were deported, but also intellectuals who, in the life of the country, played an important role. I think I can give you proof, When, at Louvain, the order appeared for the solemn reopening of universities, I was there myself as Secretary General of Universities, We read the list of those who were dead during the war, and this list included about 348 names. Perhaps htere were about 36 of these names who were soldiers who died during the combat in 1940. All the others were victims of the Gestapo, or were dead in camps in Germany, especially in the camps of Grossrosen and Neuengamme. intellectuals, because, from time to time, they organized, in the press, a synchronized campaign where they proved facts that the intellectuals refused, in the great majority, to align themselves to the new order. Notably, they tried to show the necessity for struggling -- they refused to discuss the struggle against Bolshevism. The conclusion of this article was that measures should be taken against them. I remember well 20 newspaper articles; and they were sent to a concentration camp. There was no doubt that the intellectuals were imprisoned and persecuted.
Q. I will ask you no questions an anything relating to deporation or as far as camps are concerned, because that is already well known to the Tribunal. I will ask you, when I ask you the following question, not to discuss deportation. committed by the Germans in Belgium and, notably, at the time of the offensive of December 1944 in the Ardenne's. Can you give information concerning these atrocities?
A. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, I can give you very exact information and very detailed information, if necessary, on what happened as far as crimes and atrocities are concerned during the offensive of von Runstedt in the Ardenne's, as I was in charge of this inquiry for the War Crimes Commission. I questioned witnesses, and I know perfectly well, from personal knowledge, what happened.
During the offensive of van Runstedt in the Ardenne's they committed crimes which were truly abominable, and in 31 localities, crimes committed against men, women, and children. These crimes were committed, on the one hand, as it happened elsewhere and as it happens during all wars, by individual soldiers. However, what I particularly want to stress are the crimes committed by whole units who received formal instructions. followed the German Division, or the units of the Army of von Runstedt, organizations which were known, though I am not quite sure, as Kommandos mit Besonderer Verwertung. These were commandos with special tasks. This not only happen ed in the Belgian Ardenne's, but they committed crimes of the same kind, in the same way, in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. like to say this, I don't wish to take up the time of the Tribunal, but I will just give one example, which is quite typical. It was the twon of Stavelot, where there were 140 persons, between 137 and 140. They discovered about 130 persons, of whom 36 were women and 22 were children, of whom the oldest was 14 years old and the youngest 4 years. They were killed savagely by units belonging to the SS Tank Division, one a Division Hohenstufen, the other the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler SS Tank Division. These units proceeded, We have full information about this from the testimony of a soldier who took part in it. He was arrested by the Belgian police. During the campaign of von Runstedt he was dressed as a civilian, and later he worked as a laborer on a Belgian farm. One day the Belgium police saw, when his arm was bare, that he belonged to the SS, because of the markings which he had on his skin, and he was then arrested.
panzer. At a certain moment the Obersturmfuehrer of this troup had his men come forth and gave them a little speech. He said that all children which they encountered should be killed. They then went back to their tanks again. Then, as the tanks advanced along the road, it was "that house there" or "that house there". Then the soldiers, with the machine guns in their hands entered. If they found the people in the kitchen, they killed them in the kitchen. If they were at the table, they killed them there, or if they found them in the cellar, they killed them in the cellar ; if they found, them along the road, they killed them along the road. It was not only the Division of Hohenstufen and Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, others also acted in this manner. Ardenne's, the resistance entered into action. There were quite a number of German soldiers who were killed during that retreat, and so, to avenge themselves for this, to avenge themselves for the resistance, they gave orders that all the civilians should be killed without pity during the course of that operation. from the point of view of responsibility, it is this. This is the question of Kommandos mit Besonderer Verwertung. Every unit was accompanied. People of the SD, in most villages where they arrived, immediately questioned the people as to those who had taken part in the resistance, whether they were still there or whether they had, fled. They had special questionnaires which included 27 questions. It was always the same. These questions were asked everyone in the towns where they arrived. one, so that I will not take up too much of the Tribunal's time. I will give an example in Bande, in the Arrondissement of Marche. One of these detachments of the SD said they were sent especially by Himmler to execute the people of the resistance. These people seized all men between 17 and 32 years of age.
After having questioned them completely, after having screened them in an arbitrary way - because sometimes they didn't keep people - there were only four who were resistance members. Then they forced them to raise their hands, and march along the highway. When they reached a ruined house the officer who commanded the detachment went into the interior of the house. The men then had to place their hands on the third man of the last row. Then the officer, armed with a machine gun, killed the prisoners with a bullet in the back of the neck. Many of the young men were executed in that way by the same officer.
He wasn't satisfied to kill them with a bullet in the back of the neck, but very often he kicked these bodies which were before him. Then he seat a volley of machine gun bullets after them.
Q Mr. van der Essen, you are a historian; you have tought and developed scholars; you have the habit of being a critic of historical forces. Can you say that there exists no doubt in your mind, according to your inquiry, about the fact that these atrocities reveal an over-all plan and instructions from a superior officer? existed an over-all plan.
Q I would like to ask you a last question: I think that I understood that you yourself were never arrested or bothered socially by the Germans. I would like to know if you consider that for a free man who is not an objective of the German administration or police it is possible during the Nazi occupation to bad a life like a free man in dignity?
A Yes, such as you see me before you. I weigh exactly 64 kilos. I am one meter 67 centimeters tall. I am quite normal, according to my colleagues in the faculty of medicine. Before the airplanes of the Luftwaffe abruptly arrived, before the declaration of war and disseminated violence in Belgium, I weighed 82 kilos. The difference between that 82 kilos and the 65 or 67 I weight now is incontestibly the result of the occupation. I don't want to enter into details of a general nature, or theoretical. I would like to point out, to make you understand - give you this story of an ordinary day of an average Belgian during the occupation.
I think that I can take a day in 1943: Six o'clock in the morning. The first idea that we all had was that it was the Gestapo. It wasn't the Gestapo. Someone had rung the bell. It was just a policeman who came in and said there was a light in my office. He told me to be careful about this. The nervous shock, however, was there.
At 7:30 a postman arrived. The postman brings me a summons which says I must appear personally. The postman says: "You know, Professor, I am a member of the Secretary Army and I am informed what goes on. The Germans intend to arrest today at six o'clock all the former soldiers of the Belgian Army. These soldiers must disappear immediately." And so immediately I wondered where to go. Then I went to Brussels. I arrived a few kilometers from Louvain. There was a patrol of soldiers. They put us, no matter what our social rank was, with our faces turned against the wall and our arms in the air. Then were were not armed. In that position they would take our papers and let us go after we got a few kilometers.
The street car was stopped by a gathering on the highway. I saw several women who were crying. I asked them why they were. And this is what they said: They were all - some of their men folk had refused to do compulsory work. They were arrested. They couldn't find the men. They took an old father of 82 and a young girl of 16 as being responsible, because their brothers had hidden and disappeared. And I can tell you. I arrived at Brussels to be present at a meeting of the Academy. The first thing the President said was, "van der Essen, have you learned what happened to two of your colleagues? They were arrested yesterday in the street. They have disappeared." Their wives are in a terrible state. They do not know why or where they are taken away. In the evening I go home and then we find the police again, who come to see if the people have their papers. I arrive home finally. I think that I can affirm here that then at nine o'clock in the evening when we might utter a sigh of relief, when we turn on our radio and listen, then to that sympathetic voice that we listen to every evening The Voice of France Combatant," which we can hear today, or the radio from London - somehow we could heave a sigh of relief after having heard some good news; somehow that eased us.
Then we could breathe easily; that was the only thing that permitted us to sleep tranquilly during the night. German occupation. And you naturally understand that we could not consider the type of happiness and felicity when the German troops invaded our country.
Q Excuse me, Mr. van der Essen. The only satisfaction that you had to listen to the radio, was punished by a severe penalty; if you were arrested
M. FAURE: I thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you finished Mr. Faure?
M. FAURE: No more questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko?
GENERAL RUDENKO: I have no questions.
(There were no questions from the British Prosecution)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the Defendants' Counsel wish to ask any questions?
PROFESSOR FRANZ EXNER (Counsel for the Defendant Jodl): Yes, sir. BY PROFESSOR EXNER: Were you yourself in Louvain when the two batteries were firing at the library?
A I was not in Louvain, but I may add this: Louvain was in the battle line, and the population of Louvain were obliged by the military authorities to evacuate the town on the 14th so that the inhabitants of Louvain had left at the time when these events took place, and only paralytic ill persons who could not be cured, who had hidden in their cellars, were there; but what I know concerning these batteries, I found out through interrogation of the two witnesses who were there. The library was not burned from within, but bombed from outside. And these witnesses of whom I speak lived where the batteries were located.
Q Were there any Belgian or British troops still left in the town?
A Yes, there were Belgian troops. The British had taken over the sector, and when they observed that the building, the library was burning, the first flames in the night of the 16th - 17th, 1;30 in the morning the English troops had left.
They no longer remained. Only a few who were withdrawing, who fired a shot of cannon occasionlly, to give the impression that the sector was still occupied by the British army. took place? which surrounded Louvain, a few tanks which, as I said, were carrying out necessary maneuvers for withdrawl. Counsel for the Defense that in this testimony, from persons who were in the library - the bailiff and the concierge - they never saw British soliders put their foot in the buildings of the library.
Q That is not surprising. At the time the German batteries fired were there still British batteries firing -- or Belgian batteries?
Q So then there was quiet over the town of Louvain; the troops had left; the enemy was not there yet, and the batteries didn't fire? Louvain was : There was a moment when the English had left, when the Germans had not yet arrived and the the population had left, except the few ill persons, the few paralytics, the few people who were behind in cellars, a few persons #10 could not be moved, the commander of the Fire Engine company, the Rector of the University. Among them was my colleague, Mr. Kennog, member of the Academy of Medicine. He himself took over the direction of the city at that time. batteries?
A Yes, indeed. One at the west and one at the north. The only shells which the towers of the library show four from the eastern side and four from the northern side and if there had been British or Belgian batteries the shells would have come from the other side instead. battery?
A Yes, we observed that these shells entered the library. We saved a few of those shells. by a German officer whether that was really the tower of the University Library?
Q Do you know the person yourself? Do you know him?
A I do not know him personally. He is the librarian of the university with whom I had a conversation, and who brought the war crimes commission to question to Mr. Vigneron.
Q But you are a member of that Commission yourself, aren't you? concerning the library of Louvain just as Monseigneur, the Rector, and the librarian tock no active part concerning the library of Louvain. It was made by an officer of the judicial delegation -- he himself, independently -
upon the order of the public prosecutor of Louvain, and we kept entirely outside of the question.
Q Have you seen the official files?
Q I am surprised they weren't brought here. Tell me why did the director of the library, the person who was immediately suffering after the occupation of the town, -- why did he not go to the Mayor or the mayor to the Commander of the town?
A I don't think I understand the question very well. of the town, why didn't the Mayor of the town, or the Rector of the library -- why didn't they go to the Commander of the town, the commandant, and tell him about that bombardment of the library? state of disorder and there was no one in town; there was hardly -
(A short interruption)
THE PRESIDENT: You may go on.
A (Continuing) At that time there was hardly anybody left in the city, and on the other hand as soon as the Germans arrived, and this in a systematic way, it was forbidden formally to enter the library; Belgians were not permitted by the Germans to enter the library. Different German inquiry commissions came to the spot, on the 26th of May, 1940, with an expert, Professor Kellermann, the Technische Hochschule, accompanied by a man of the Party. They examined what had happened and they had appear before them as witnesses the Rector of the university and the librarian. Fromthe very beginning of the inquiry they wished to force the rector of the university to declare and recognize that it was the English who had set fire to the library. And as a proof, this expert showed shells and parts of shells that smelled of gasoline. "This shell must have contained chemical elements which set fire to the library." The rector and the librarian of the -university said, "Where did you find this shell? We went by that spot and it wasn't there when we went by." It was placed there by the German expert. And I shall add, if you will permit me, because this is of considerable importance, that a second commission for an inquiry came in the month of August, 1940, presided over by a very distinguished man, Obergerichstsrat von Boist.
He was accompanied at this time by the expert who had directed the inquiry concerning the firing of the Reichstag. This commission examined everything, and beforethe rector and another witness, a Benedictine monk. They simply mocked at the conclusions of the first commission, and said these conclusions were ridiculous.
(A short interruption)
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue.
A (Continuing) I said that the second commission presided over by von Brisban, assisted by the expert who had examined the matter of the firing of the Reichstag, had declared before Belgian witnesses that the conclusion of the first commission was ridiculous.
Q You have said that thelibrary building had towers. Do you know whether artillery observers had been in these towers?
A Were there artillery observers? At all events, the only thing I can say is that the rector had always refused this -- from the beginning -and he certainly would have opposed any attempt of this kind, knowing that if there were artillery observers in the tower obviously it would have given occasion for the enemy to fire on the library. The rector knew this and he always told me, "We must too very careful, because if the British soldiers or others were in the sector they must not go up in the tower. We must be careful of that." On the other hand, I know by the statements of the janitors that no British soldiers went into the tower. That is certain. As for Belgians, I must say that I don't know. had been hit by German artillery, because it has happened during the war that libraries and universities in Berlin, Leipzig, Munich, Breslau, Cologne, and so on, have been hit. The question is, only if it was done on purpose. Was there any mention, in these inquiries, as to the motive for the German army's hitting that objective. this was the conclusion at which we arrived -- that the motive -- and I will not say for certain, because there is no certainty in that sort of thing -but the motive which is absolutely probable, almost certain, for the des truction of the library was the German's desire to do away with an in-scription which commemorates the Treaty of Versailles.
There was conversation in the University to the effect that this inscription, a testimonial of the defeat of the other war, should be obliterated, and because of that reason they wished to set fire to the library. The inscription read, "Furor Teutonicus." That is not the first time -- I must add -- that the Germans set fire to the University of Louvain.
Q You believe that the commander of that battery knew that? to the honorable lawyer for the Defense. When the batteries were installed, the two batteries of which I spoke, a few kilometers away, there lived a fiscal agent in a villa at Roosbeek, a few kilometers before Louvain. That afternoon some German officers came there to enjoy his hospitality. They were accompanied by a truck which contained all the radio apparatus which was used to send by wireless orders to the artillery to fire. These officers came into his home and they dined. After a while a violent discussion took place. The officers said, "These Belgians 'cochons' -- excuse that expression -- "they gave us that inscription concerning the library." The inscription he was referring to seemed to be that inscription. All the German officers were absolutely convinced that this inscription said that the library was destroyed by the Germans and was restored by American generosity. It was perfectly possible that the Germans did, because from a discussion among the officers -- the officer in charge of the artillery - we know that they first directed the artillery to cause this monument -
THE PRESIDENT: Too fast:
A (continuing) That was that this inscription or monument
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
A (continuing) It is quite probable--it is probable that they wished to caused this disappearance.
According to their idea, that German people.
That is the testimony which I would like to give to the honorable Counsel for the Defense.
I give it as it is. would have known about that inscription! I don't believe so. Thank you. BY DR. OTTO STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering):
Q Witness, answering Professor Exner's question, you have said before that 43 airplanes flew over the library and dropped bombs on it. You were not in the town of Louvain at that time; where did you get that information? which I am citing here, because I have none as far as I am concerned; but it is the testimony of the Counsel, David, who had a country house at Kesselleh. there was a considerable number of refugees in his home, among them women and children, and airplanes were continually overhead. He went out in the morning to see what was going on and he saw this squadron of airplanes which he counted-and he was a former soldier himself-numbering 43. The 43 planes flew towards the library and arrived south of it exactly at the furthest point from the house of the witness. A bomb fell there and he saw smoke immediately arise from the library. That is the testimony on which I base my statement.
Q So it was just one bomb that hit the library? bombs which are dropped by planes. From a technical point of view, roof has a metal roofing.
This metallic roofing is quite upright, these facts and we consulted technicians.
They said, then, that a unless it were from an airplane bomb.
It would not have sunk that
Q How many bombs altogether were dropped by airplanes?
A How many bombs? That witness was on a height dominating the bombs which these planes dropped.
He only saw the bombs fall. And he saw the smoke which arose from the roof of the library.
That's all
Q How many bombs were dropped on the city altogether? How many hits could be found in the city?
the falling of these bombs at that time. In the bombing of May 10, Superior Philosophy and a few other buildings of the University; in afterwards?
A The bombs were dropped before and afterward. I myself saw in the afternoon, on the 10th of May, 1940, a terrible bombing at that time. Bombs were dropped by a squadron of seven planes. I am not a military technician, but what I saw and these gentlemen saw were two planes which dive-bombed the Tirlemont Bridge. The result of this bombing was that a considerable amount of concrete was destroyed and several hundred persons killed in the afternoon, in the first days, the 10th of May, 1940.
(A recess was taken from 15.20 to 15.40 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Defense Counsel wish to cross examine?
BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for SS and SA):
Q Witness, when did you see the university building last; that is before the attack, the last time before the attack?
Q That was before the attack?
Q Was it damaged at that time, and in what way? Was the building at that time already damaged and in what way? library. It remained absolutely intact until the night of the 16th to 17th of May. At the time I left, there was absolutely nothing. could you notice any other hits on the building?
A I don't think so. There were only traces of fire in the tower.
Q From the fact that only the tower had been hit, couldn't it be thought that the tower and not the building was the target? could be seen on the wall and the balcony of the first story and of the face of the clock, but for the rest, there was nothing left to be seen on the building for the simple reason that the building had been completely burned on the inside. On the blackened walls there was nothing to be seen, but it is absolutely certain that either an aviation bomb, but rather, I think, an artillery bomb, hit the building on the northeast corner. There is a very visible trace of a shell. It is here precisely that the fire began. The witnesses who saw the fire from the Abbey of Msgr. Weyenberg I don't quite understand the question of the honorable attorney.
Q After the fire, when did you see the building for the first time?
Q That is much later?
A Yes, but still in the same condition. Nothing was done. It was still as it was originally.
to save the building and to stop the fire? fire. The Rector of the University, M. Von Boist, told me himself and declared that he had tried to get firemen but the firemen had gone. There were only the chief and two members of the fire corps, and all the watermains had been broken up as a result of the bombardment. There was no water for several days.
Q Were there German troops in these attempts to stop the fire? I ask if these attempts to save the building were not also made by German troops?
Q How do you know that? You weren't there.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation is not coming through. troops had been there to save the building? secretary-general, I discussed all general questions having to do with the University. Particularly on this point, we spoke of it, and he told me in so many words that no soldier of the German Army tried to fight the fire.
Q You also have spoken about the resistance forces. Do you know that the civilian population was asked to resist the German troops?
A Where? In the Ardennes? army, which was a military organization and responsible and recognized commanders, carrying arms openly and carrying distinctive badges. They could not be confused with simple Franc-Tireurs. ance movement? centered into action with the chief at their head, working, fighting openly, with their distinctive badges. They openly attacked the German troops.
Q That was not my question. I have asked you if you know how many German soldiers became victims of that resistance movement?