DR. STAHMER: This quotation is as follows:
"...But it is also clear that if a world power by virtue of her sovereignty can decide upon concluding military alliances of such vast proportions without having misgivings on account of existing treaties, another world power like Germany has at least the right to safeguard the protection of the entire Reich territory by re-establishing within her own borders the natural rights of a sovereign power which are granted all peoples." intention, if I have the permission of the high Tribunal, to call as the first witness General of the Airforce von Bodenschatz.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
(KARL VON BODENSCHATZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows): BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me. I swear by God, the Almighty Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing (The witness repeated the oath). BY DR. STAHMER: Goering?
Q In what capacity did you get to know him? Richthofen. I was the adjutant of Freiherr von Richthofen who had just died, who had been killed in action. Reichswehr, at the end of the first world war?
AAt the end of the first world war? I was taken into the Reichswehr as a professional officer and remained from the year 1919 until April 1933. connection with Goering: did you mean in November 1918?
A I came together with Goering again. I was at Aschaffenburg, at a demobilization of Squadron Richthofen. I was with Goering at the time and later in the spring of 1919 for several weeks, I was together with him at Berlin. There our paths separated. Then I met Goering for the first time once more at his first wedding and I believe that was in the year 1919 or 1920, I cannot remember exactly. Up to 1929 there was no connection between him and me. In the year 1929, up until the year 1933, I met Hermann Goering here in Nurnberg several times. At that time, I was the Kompaniechef of Infantry Regiment 21 and was stationed at Nurnberg. My meetings with Goering were meant for purposes of old friendship.
Q And then in the year 1939, you entered the Luftwaffe?
A 1933, I volunteered with Goering at Berlin. At that time, Goering was Reich Commissar of the Luftwaffe and I reported to him as his military adjutant. I remained up until the year 1938; then I was the Chief of the Ministerial Bureau.
Q And what position did you have curing the war? of the Luftwaffe and the Fuehrer Headquarters.
Q Were you at the headquarters, or where? headquarters of the commanding chief of the Luftwaffe.
Q When did you leave this position? wounded on that day, seriously wounded on that day.
Q And what was the cause of your being wounded?
Q You were present?
Q And what were your tasks at the Fuehrer Headquarters? of the Reichsmarshal, to bring them to the Fuehrer Headquarters in the absence of the Reichsmarshal and to see that these requests were forwarded, and then questions from the Fuehrer Headquarters to be forwarded to Goering direct.
Then all proceedings at the Fuehrer Headquarters, as far as they concerned him in his capacity as Reichsmarshal, I had to inform him in plenty of time, that is, not necessarily through official channels,I had to forward this information to him
Q Did you take part in the conferences? with Hitler? Goering, since the spring of 1933, Goering lost influence with Hitler.
Q And what were the reasons? and since that time between Hitler and Goering were differences of opinion which, in a separate period of time were increased, in a subsequent period of time.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through, as far as we were able to hear it, that the Defendant Goering, since the spring of 1933, lost his influence with Hitler.
DR. STAHMER: In 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead.
DR. STAHMER: May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Even though Goering made tremendous efforts, he could not recapture his influence upon the Fuehrer as he had had it prior to that time, and the outward signs and symptoms of the decreased influence were the following:
First, the Fuehrer criticized Goering mere severely. Secondly, the prior conversations between Hitler and Goering, which had been of large duration, now were markedly shorter, less frequent, and finally ceased altogether. Thirdly, as far as important conferences were concerned, the Reichsmarshal was not called in. Fourthly, in the last months and weeks, there was an increasing tension between Hitler and Goering, and to such a decree that he was arrested.
Q Do you knew about this arrest, and what was the cause?
A I am not exactly informed on this. I can just tell you what I heard. I was at that time at Reichenhall at the hospital. I just heard that Reichsmarshal Goering had sent a telegram to the Fuehrer, and in this telegram, to a measure at least, Goering requested that since he, that is Goering, did not have freedom of action any more, that he might act himself. After a reply to this wire, which was sent by wireless, was sent back to Berlin, there was by Hitler an arrest. I wouldlike to emphasize and inform that that was just his say. I have no proof of any of these statements.
Q And who made the arrest? I heard that a commando of the SS from Obersalzberg made this arrest. the proceedings against him, which had been made on the 9 and 10 November 1938
Q How can you tell that? towards me. And he acted in the following manner: When he heard of these things which were made, he could not justify these proceedings, and, further, afterwards, is when he went over to the Fuehrer and complained about the people who had instigated those incidents. Captain Wiedmann, the Adjutant of the Fuehrer, can give you the particulars and the details. Several weeks after this, Goering called in the Gauleiters to Berlin at that time, as he wanted to make clear his attitude as to the incident of on the 9th and 10th; he opposed these wild single actions. He stated them as unjust, as economically unreasonable, and the diminution of prestige in foreign countries, and, former Gauleiter Dr. Veberreiter, who took part in this conference, has already given written testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait one moment. Go on Dr. Stahmer. You can go on. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q Have you completed your statement?
of August 1939 at Sonke Nissen Koog in Husum, which took place at that time and place?
Q Who was present or assembled there?
A So far as I recall the following were present: Hermann Goering, Herr Dahlerus, Stockholm, six to eight English, a Ministerialrat in the Government, whose name I don't recall, I was present, and there was an interpreter, Dr. Boecker, who was present.
Q Can you tell us about the contents of this conference? you Goering made the following statement:
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, did the witness say where this conference took place? BY DR. STAHMER: that was. BY DR. STAHMER: First, Sonke Nissen Koog, that is sort of a bse, Sonke Nissen Koog in Husum.
Q Please continue. You were going to tell us about the contents, or substance of this conference?
A In substance, Goering made the following statement: Between English and Germany military connections the relations are very tense. Under no circumstances may this tension be increased, or be intensified, that may, or may not endanger the peace. That welfare, and the economic welfare of both countries can only bloom and function in peace. Germany and Europe are interested to the greatest extent so that the British Empire will continue to exist. Goering emphasized that he himself would use his entire influence for the maintenance of peace. He asked and requested the British business leaders after their return home to use their influence with the vital personalities; that they use their influence for that purpose and for the aims just outlined.
foreign policy of the Reich should be carried out according to this opinion, when on the occasions these conversations took place? These conversations took place in the years of 1938 and 1939, especially in that time or period after the Munich Agreement. These conversations took place perhaps in connection with the speech, or perhaps on a special train. Hermann Goering was only of the opinion that the policy of the Reich would have to be conducted in such a way that the possibility of war was not even to be thought of. Hermann Goering was especially interested in elaborating on this topic in a conference with the Gauleiters in the Summer of 1938 at Carinhall. I just recently did mention that Dr. Ueberreiter had testified under oath, especially, and particularly in this connection. did he speak to you prior to that departure? everything within -- he would do everything in order to effect a peaceful settlement. We cannot have war, and in this sense and substance he tried to effect and influence the Fuehrer, and, accordingly, during the proceedings at Munich he worked for the preservation, and also, decisively for peace.
Q Have you finished?
A I have not quite finished yet. When after this conference at Munich he met the Fuehrer, and he said to us spontaneously, "that is peace I want." I have concluded. a war, and what was the occasion for his making this statement?
A We talked about this topic very frequently. He always said to me, "I was in the first World War in the infantry, and as an aviation officer, and was at the front. I know the horrors of a war, and, therefore, my attitude is so far as possible to prevent the horrors of war to come to the German people. Again my ambition is to solve the conflicts peacefully."
I would like to add that Hermann Goering, according to his inner thoughts and character, was never for war. Everything was further from him than the thought of a war. about rearmament which Germany had taken? What were the utterances then and there? Wehrfreiheit had been known, and he said that, after several attempts to limit armament, the rearmament of Germany was to be similar to the armament of ether countries, and the aim was to have the same rights as the other great powers and to be able to participate in the politics and policies of the great powers.
Q Did these conversations take place after 1935 also?
A Yes. Now and then we referred to the same topic, and he spoke in the same manner. Plan was to serve? and that was after the Four Year Plan had been announced. He told me the following: that in this plan he saw a means to secure for Germany these raw materials which she could not import in peace because of the lack of foreign exchange, or whose import in an emergency would be cut off. Russian campaign? campaign, Goering talked with me about the situation and the fighting in the East. He said at that time Adolf Hitler foresaw a very hard battle in the East, but the reverses, as we have just had them, he did not foresee and did not count on. Before the beginning of this campaign I tried in vain to dissuade Hitler from his plan of attacking Russia. I reminded him that he himself, in his book "Mein Kampf", was opposed to a war on two fronts simultaneously, and, in addition, I pointed out that the mass or the scope of the German Luftwaffe was to be in the East, and England, whose air industry had been hurt, would have a chance to recover and convalesce.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off for ten minutes?
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has observed that the witness is using notes while giving his evidence.
The ruling which I announced this morning was confined to the defendants and did not extend to witnesses. Nevertheless, the Tribunal will allow the same rule to be applied to witnesses. The evidence must not be read, the crux of the rule being merely to assist the recollection in giving evidence.
Yes, Dr. Stahmer. (Direct-Examination continued) BY DR. STAHMER request that their relatives should be freed from concentration camps and to help them in their difficulties with the Gestapo? who can answer that question. I myself only heard that such requests had been directed to the Reichmarshal.
Q Didn't you personally have to do with these things? toward the Luftwaffe. But they were only requests regarding the imprisonment of German citizens and these were requests that the reason for this imprisonment be given. Otherwise also applications regarding misunderstandings of arrests and also regarding arrests of Jews. Those requests came to me only from the field of activity of the Luftwaffe or from my immediate circle of acquaintances.
Q How were such requests treated?
A Such requests were treated as follows: and were submitted to the Staff of the Reichmarshal. There requests that came from the Luftwaffe fell into my sphere of activity and requests that came from the Reichsmarshal's relatives or friends he himself handled. The Reichsmarshal did not withdraw his help in these cases. In individual cases he asked the Fuehrer personally for a decision.
Q Did you also turn to Goering with requests for help for Jews?
Q How were these requests handled?
A T he Reichsmarshal did not deny his help and he gave instructions whenever possible that they should be helped.
Q That was Goering's general social attitude?
A Goering's social attitude was as follows: fueling that he should help those he could. He was always ready to help those who were in need, for instance sick people, wounded, the relatives of those who had been killed in the war, prisoners of war. Here is an example of this: The introduction of miners' compensation for twenty-five years of steady work -- those who had worked that long should receive twenty thousand marks in compensation. This is one of his most important social works.
Q Did you know of the conditions in the concentration camps?
A. I knew nothing of those conditions. they discussed? concentration camps. It was never discussed.
Q Was the question of the annihilation of Jews discussed?
Q Not even in camp discussions?
A No, not there either. Never were these matters talked about in my presence.
Q Did anyone else mention anything, for instance Himmler?
A Himmler never mentioned anything. I simply heard, while I was in prison, that people who had spoken to Himmler on this matter had been told by him.
Q That what you heard was not true?
A That is false. I myself did not speak to Himmler on this matter.
Q Did you know how many concentration camps there were? existed. Mauthausen, Buchenwald -- it was only after the war that one found out about these camps and one read it in the paper. I knew of the camp of Dachau because I happen to come from Bavaria.
Q Did you ever hear of the cruelties that took place there?
A No, just last year for the first time. When I took my leave of the Reichsmarshal in the middle of March, 1945, the Reichsmarshal told me at lunch that many Jews must have died and that they would have to pay for that. It was in that way that I heard of any crimes against the Jews.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions. I can now turn
THE PRESIDENT: Do any Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions of this witness?
BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW):
the Luftwaffe, you took part in the camp discussions in the Fuehrer Headquarters. Did you also take part in camp discussions when front line commanders were making their reports to Hitler?
AAt such discussions I did not personally take part. I was, however, present at two discussions in adjoining rooms, once when Field Marshall von Kleist was there for a conference, and the second time when the leader of the Crimea Army was present. After the evacuation of the Crimea, the leader of the Crimea Army was there for a conference, the adjoining room because people were speaking loudly. I heard that there were differences of opinion between Hitler and the commanders in question. I can say no more on that. conferences? I do not know their content.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions?
Then, does the Prosecuting Counsel wish to ask any questions? BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q May it please the Tribunal: You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States?
A I beg your pardon. Could, you please repeat the question. I didn't understand the question.
Q You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States? tatives of the United States? United States.
Q You have also had a number of consultations with Dr. Stahmer who has just examined you?
A I had several discussions with Dr. Stahmer who as just addressed questions to me. pared your answers in writing? prepare my answers. ties of your department in releasing persons from them, as I understand you, a large number of applications came to the Goering office for release from concentration camps. concentration camps did not come to me but to the staff. I received only the requests in which people requested help because they had been taken prisoner, among them Jews who were about to be arrested.
Q Were those applications that did come to you numerous?
A My sector was only the field of the Luftwaffe. There were perhaps 10 to 20 such applications. imprisonment or had been in prison, or both? people who were about to be arrested. them. those that came to me. which help was not given to the imprisoned persons?
A I don't know anything about that. I heard from Dr. Witzbach, Chief of Staff, that the requests that came to him were settled in a humane way.
or were you helping people out who were guilty of crime? concentration camps. in concentration camps.
A Yes; they were not brought to concentration camps. I will give you a practical example. A comrade of mine, from the Richthofer Squadron, who was a Jew, was arrested by the Gestapo, was not taken to a concentration camp, but first was simply arrested by the Gestapo. His lawyer informed me. I informed the Reichsmarshal of this case, and the Reichsmarshal instructed me to have this ran freed from his temporary custody by the Gestapo. He was not yet in a concentration camp. This case happened in 1943.
Q What was he charged with when he was arrested? had offended in some way against morals, in that he met an Aryan woman in a hotel room.
Q And did you make any inquiries as to whether the charge was true? in obtaining his release. When I called up, he was released and thereafter stayed under the protection of Hermann Goering.
Q Who did you call up to get his release?
A The Chief of the Gestapo, the chief office in Hamburg. I don't know the name. I didn't make the call myself, but my assistant did so. Hermann Goering?
A Not from Herman Goering's office, but the Reichsmarshal gave specific instructions that that was to occur, and then it did.
Q I thought you said your assistant called up. Did Goering also call the Gestapo himself? belonged to the Luftwaffe hewas released, on the word of the Reichsmarshal?
A He was not a member of the Luftwaffe, he was a civilian. He had previously been one of our comrades in our Richthofen Squadron. He was not in the Wehrmacht. were from the Luftwaffe? Were those your instructions from Gearing? I should act humanely, and I did so in every case. against? older married couples, more than 60 years old. These two couples were to be arrested, and I was informed of this. I told the Reichsmarshal about it, and he told me that these two couples should be taken to a foreign country.
That was a question of the two couples Ballin. In 1923, when Hermann Goering was seriously wounded in front of the Feldherrnhalle, when he was going back to a house, he was taken in by this family and given medical help. Those two families were to be arrested.
Q For what? should be collected in camps.
Q And you knew of that order?
A I did not know the order; it was only through this example, that went through me, that it became clear to me that this transport of Jews should take place. I never read the order myself, nor even heard of it, because I had nothing to do with that. camps merely because they were Jews?
A I am not speaking of concentration camps, but the Jews were to be brought to special collection camps.
Q Not concentration camps, but special camps? Where were they going from there?
Q And whore was this special camp that you speak of?
A I do not know where they were taken to. We simply knew that they were to be taken away. to concentration camps any harm would come to them, did you?
Q Now didn't you hear about the concentration camps, and wasn't the purpose of your saving these people from going to them that the people who went there were mistreated? ment with the Gestapo that were not yet in the concentration camp. concentration camp? out whether the Gestapo had cause for arresting them? against him.
Q But you made no inquiry into that, did you?
A I have already said it was generally known that these people were taken to collection camps, not concentration camps, but they were to be taken away.
Many people know that; they knew that the people were taken to work camps, and in these work camps they were put to work.
Q Forced labor?
A Please?
Q Forced labor?
A It was just ordinary work. I knew, for instance, that in Lodz the people worked in the textile industry.
Q And where were they kept while they were doing that work?
A I can't say; I did not know.
Q They were in a camp, weren't they?
Q You wouldn't know about that? camp? you have drawn that distinction. being in any way ill-treated.
Q And a concentration camp is where they are ill-treated? covered that through the press and through my imprisonment; at that time I did not know it. I learned that from the newspapers. I was in English imprisonment for quite a while, and that is where I found out about it. being taken to collection camps to be taken away. Where were they being taken away?
Q Did you ever inquire? not?
Q And you never ventured to ask him about the concentration camps?
you could? down, and in those cases I assisted, didn't you? had something to do with it. Himmler frequently came to conferences with Hermann Goering, but these were, however, private conversations just between Goering and Himmler. aided Kaltenbrunner to his post when Kaltenbrunner came into office, did you not?
A No, that I didn't know.
Q You didn't know that? office? That I did not know. My activity was confined simply to the military center. I was military adjutant for the Reichsmarshal. I had nothing to do with these things. Aryans out of half-Jews? Luftwaffe came to me, to wit, officers, according to the regulations, would have to be dismissed from the army if they had mixed blood. In many cases the Reichsmarshal gave instructions that these officers should not be dismissed.
Q What was done about it? not to dismiss these individuals. that they were full Aryans, notwithstanding Jewish parentage?
A At the moment I can remember no such case.
broad masses of people, and those requests were submitted to his staff. Is that right?
Q And who was the head of that staff? Witzbach.
Q How many assistants did he have?
A There were three divisions: The press section, with Dr. Goerner in charge of that; private secretary --there were three such sections.
Q And which of these sections handled the peoples requests for relief from arrest?
A Dr. Witzbach and Dr. Goerner were concerned with that.
Q To whom did they talk about these matters, do you know? to the Reichsmarshal. they did?
Q The Reichsmarshal was kept fully informed of these applications to you and to the other sections?
any one of the applications that was made to him, so far as you know? he never refused assistance and actually always did help. helping?
A In most cases, of course, they were innocent; that was already established. I understand from your direct testimony? near to the bomb.
Q Where was Hermann Goering that day? kilometers from the Fuehrer Headquarters.
Q Only seventy kilometers away; is that right? And at that time were you instructed to represent him at that meeting? in this conference as in any other one as a listener. I had no such orders to represent Goering in the Fuehrer Headquarters; I simply came to the Fuehrer Headquarters to inform him of what went on there.
Q You represented him to listen but not to talk; is that right?
A I didn't say very much; I was simply a listener and was to inform him as to what took place at the conference, what would interest him in his capacity as Reichsmarshal. meeting? special commission sent to Muenster Lager to review an Italian division. On the 20th of July, at noon, I came by air to the Fuehrer Headquarters, gave Hitler a military communication, and Hitler said to me, "Come along to the camp." I didn't want to go but I did, and after fifteen minutes the attempted assassination took place.