Q That is right.
Q "The damage reported to us amounted to about one million seven hundred thousand because the store was completely stripped." Is that right?
Q "Goering: Daluege and Heydrich, you will have to get me this jewelry through raids staged on a tremendous scale." Is that the order you gave?
Q Brought back to the State -- you didn't intend to return them to the Jews.
A We are not concerned with that at this point. Decisive is the fact that they were to be returned.
Q We are trying to get the loot back, " as Heydrich put it, is that right, and you added, "and the jewels"? nothing be done because these valuables could cause a great deal of damage and therefore, I gave the order, through raids, to bring back these stolen goods as well as other goods. If this business was Aryanized the contents or the inventory of the store went over to the new possessor. the plundering steps would be taken against them and it says here that already one hundred and fifty had been arrested. after you reminded him to bring back, to get the jewels.
"This is very difficult to say. They were partly thrown into the street and picked up there. Similar things happened with the furriers. For example, in Frilderichstrasse, there the crowd was naturally rushing to pick up minks, skunks and so forth. It will be very difficult to recover that. Even the children have filled their pockets just for fun. It is suggested that the Hitler Youth is not to be employed and to participate in such actions without the Party's consent. Such things are very easily destroyed."
Q And Daluege then suggests: "The Party should issue an order to the effect that the police will immediately receive a report in case the neighbor's wife, everybody knows his neighbor, has a fur coat altered or in case somebody appears wearing new rings or bracelets. We would like the Party to support this". Correct ? from paying the claims, did he not ?
Q And he gave these reasons:
"Hilgard: If I may give reasons for this request,I would like to say that it simply has to do with the fact that we carry out to a large extent quite a number of international transactions. We have a very good international basis for our business transactions and in the interests of the equilibrium of the foreign exchange in Germany we have to make sure that the confidence in the German insurance shall not be ruined. If we now refuse to honor clear-out obligations imposed upon us through a lawful contract, it would be a black spot on the shield of honor of the German insurance.
"Goering: It would not be the minute I issue a decree, a law sanctioned by the State". Am I quoting correct ?
A Yes, and Hilgard's reply, and that was the reply I am concerned with -- he meant without a basis in law they could not refuse to pay their claims but if the sovereign state made a low that the Heydrich iterpsed and said:
"The insurance may be granted but as soon as it is to be paid it will be confecated.
In that way we will have saved our face".
Correct ?
Q Did you not then say:
"One moment. You will have to pay in any case because it is the Germans who suffered the damage.
But it will be a lowful order forbidding you to make any direct payments to Jews.
You shall also have to make payments "Hilgard:
Aha".
You adopted Heydrich's suggestion which was quite contrary to the one you brought up ?
A No, I did not support Heydrich. I made a law that the insurance of Finance.
I did not agree with Heydrich that insurance was to be paid and on the quiet be confiscated.
I went a definite, legal way and was not
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, The Tribunal will judge for itself, we have
BY MR.JUSTICE JACKSON:
important, that glass insurance was the companies' greatest asset, "but now the amount of this damage is alone twice as high as for the amount of ordinary years" and he raised the question of destroying the profits of the German insurance companies, did he not?
A Yes. Q And also the question of the number of stores destroyed -Heydrich reported 7,500, is that right?
"Daluege --"
Who, by the way, was he?
A Daluege was the leader of the Schutzpoliezi (Protective Police).
Q "One more question ought to be cleared up. Most of the goods in the stores were not the property of the owner but were kept on the books of other firms which had delivered them. Then there are the unpaid for deliveries by other firms which definitely are not all Jewish but Aryan, those goods that were delivered on the basis of commission.
"Hilgard: We will have to pay for then too.
"Goering: I wish you had killed two hundred Jews and not destreyed such valuables.
"Heydrich: There were thrity-five killed."
Do I read that correctly?
Q Spontaneously sincere, wasn't it?
A It was not meant seriously as I emphasized. It was a spontaneous and momentary excitement about the proceedings, about the destruction of valuables and the difficulties which had arisen for me. Of course, if every word you utter during the course of twentyfive years in intimate circles, if you put then into balance,I admit these utterances assume another nature.
Q Then Funk interposed to discuss the foreign excange point, did he not?
Ho contributed to the discussion, did he not, for a while? I will not bother to go into it. clear to me entirely. I regret that these pages are absent. surance companies, did he not?
Q And you made this statement, did you not?
"The Jews shall have to report the damage. He will get the refund from the insurance company but the refund will be confiscated. If it is all said and done, there will remain some profit to the insurance companies, since they so hot have to make good for all the damage. Mr. Hilgard you may enjoy yourself.
"Hilgard: I have no reason for that. The fact that we won't have to pay all the damage is called profit.
"Goering: Just a moment. If you are compelled under the law to pay five million and all of a sudden there appears an angel in my somewhat corpulent form before you and tells you you may keep one million, why can't that be called making a profit? I should actually split with you or whatever you would call it. I can see it looking at you, your whole body grims, you made a big profit."
Am I quoting correctly?
THE PRESIDENT: We will break off now.
(A recess was taken until 14.00).
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the Defendant Hess): Mr. President, the Defendant Hess has expressed his wish to be excussed at this afternoon's session, for the reason that he wants to prepare himself for his being called as a witness, which will occur during the next few days, I don't believe that this will cause a delay in the proceedings, and I should to ask the Tribunal to approve this request on Hess's part.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, on the same conditions as before, namely, that you arrange with somebody to protect your interests whilst you are absent.
DR. SEIDL: I will not be absent myself, only Hess.
THE PREISDENT: Very well. BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Document 1816-PS. Would you turn to Part 5, where you were speaking of Markgraf's jewels that disappeared?
Q Yes, for a time, to Part 5. I call your attention to your statement as follows:
"Now, for the damage the Jews had had, at Markgraf's the jewels disappeared and so forth. Well, they are gone and he won't get them refunded. He is the one who has to suffer the damage. If the jewels may be returned again by the Police, they belong to the State."
Do you find that?
A That's correct, but on the basis of the laws he was compensated for that. was there not?
Q And I ask you to turn to his statement in reference to conditions in Austria, a page or so farther on.
Q And I ask you whether he did not report to your meeting as follows:
"Your Excellency, in this matter we have already a very complete plan for Austria. There are 12,000 Jewish artisans and 5,000 Jewish retail shops in Vienna. Before the national recolution we ha already a definite plan for tradesman, regarding this total of 17,000 stores. Of the shops of the 12,000 artisans,a bout 10,000 were to be closed definitely" - -
A The interpreter didn't fellow -
Q Do you find it?
A T have found it, but the interpreter didn't.
Q "Regarding this total of 17,000 stores, of the shops of the 12,000 artisans, about 10,000 were to be closed definitely and 2,000 were to be kept open. Four thousands of the 5,000 retail stores should be closed and 1,000 kept open, that is, were to be Aryanized. According to this plan, between 3,000 and 3,500 of the total of 17,000 stores would be kept open. all others closed. This was decided following investigations in every single branch and according to lacal needs inagreemant with all competent authorities and is ready for publication as soon as we shall receive the law which we requested in September, This law shall empower us to withdraw licenses from artisans quite independently of the Jewish question.
"Goering: I shall have this decree issued today."
A Yes, of course. This had to do with the law for the limitation of the retail trade which without connection with the Jewish question would have required a limitation in numbers. That can be seen from the minutes.
Q Very well, let us go an a little further. Do you mean to inform the Tribunal that this did not apply to Jewish shops, that it had no connection with the Jewish question? tion, an limitation of the stores and shops would have been taken care of in Austria, and that can be seen from the following sentence by Mr. Fischboeck which you nave read, that they asked for a law which should authorize them generally and without with the Jewish question to withdraw licenses That would be a short law.
Whereupon I answered, " The decree may be issued today."
be eliminated. That I said in the beginning.
Q Please go on down two paragraphs to where this was reported:
"This way I believe that fewer than 100 stores would be left and by the end of the year we would have liquidated all the Jewish-owned businesses which so far have been abvious as such in the eyes of the public, "Goering:
That would be excellent."
"Out of 17,000 stores 12,000 or 14,000 would be shut down and the remainder Aryanized or handed over to the Bureau of Trustees, which is operated by the store.
"Goering: I have to say that this proposal is grand. This way the whole affair would be wound up in Vienna, one of the Jewish capitals, so to Speak, by Christmas or by the end of the year."
"Funk: We can do the same thing here. I have prepared a law elaborating that. Effective the 1st of January, 1939, Jews shall be prohibited from operating retail stores and wholesale establishments, as well asindependent artizan shops.They shall be further prohibited from keeping employees or offering any ready products on the market. Whenever a Jewish shop is operated the police shall shut it down.
"From the 1st of January 1939 a Jew can no longer be employed as an enterpriser, as stipulated in the law for the organization of national labor from the 20th of January, 1934. If a Jew has aleading position in an establishmentwithout being enterpriser, his contract may be declared void within six weeks by the enterpriser. With the expiration of the contract all claims of the employee, including all claims to maintenance, become obliterated. That is always very disagreeable and a great danger.
"A Jew cannot be a member of a corporation. Jewish members of corporations shall have to be retired by the 31st of December 1938. A special authorization is unnecessary. The competent ministers of the Reich are being authorized to issue the provision necessary for execution of this law."
"Goering: I believe we can agree with this law." situation and I call your attention to the point at which Funk inquires of you, "Why should the Jew not be allowed to keep bonds?"
"Goering: Because that way he would actually be given a share."
A Yes, that was the purpose, to get them out of the enterprise. If he kept the shares, then, on the basis of the law, he still had an intreest in the enterprise, and on the basis of the shares he could still express his will in the enterprise."
Q You turned Funk's suggestion down that the Jews be allowed to keep bonds?
A Yes. Obligations I put in the place of bonds. something you want to call attention to, and I come to the point where Heydrich is stating his position. I call your attention to this dialogue:
"Heydrich: At least 45,000 Jews were made to leave the country by legal measures."
"Goering" -
A One moment, please. I find it now.
"At least 45, 000 Jews were made to leave the country by legal measures. How was this possible?" and then heydrich tells you that "through the Jewish societies we extracted a certain amount of money from the rich Jews who wanted to emigrate. By paying this amount and an additional sum in foreign currency they made it possible for a number of poor Jews to leave. The problem wasn't to make the rich Jew leave but to get rid of the Jewish mob."
Is that correct?
A One moment, please. I don't find it here yet but generally that is correct, yes.
Q Pass on a little further. Heydrich is making suggestions and says, "As for the isolation, I would like to make a few proposals regarding police measures, which are important also because of their psychological effect on public opinion.
"For example, who is Jewish according to the Nurnberg laws shall have to wear a certain insignia. That is a possibility which will facilitate many other things. I don't see any danger of excuses, and it will make our relationship with the foreign Jews easier."
"Goering: A uniform?"
"Heydrich: Insignia. This way we could put an end to it htat foreign Jews who don't look different from ours are being molested."
"Goering: But myydear Heydrich, you won't be able to avoid the creation of thettos on a very large scale in all the cities. They shall have to be created."
Is that what you said?
A I said that. At that time the problem was to get the Jews to-
20'March-A-MC-12-3 gether in certain parts and along certain streets in the town, because on the basis of the tenant regulations it wasn't possible, and on that basis, if they would have insignias each individual Jew would have een protected. to this warning from Heydrich about the measures which had been discussed:
"Goering: Once we would have a ghetto we would find out what stores ought to be in there and we would be able to say, 'You, Jew so and so, together with so and so, shall take care of the delivery of goods,' and a German wholesale firm will be ordered to deliver the goods for this Jewish store. The store would then not be a retail shop but a cooperative store, a cooperative one for Jews."
"Heydrich: All these measures will eventually lead to the institution of the ghetto. I would say one shouldn't want to build a ghetto, but these measures, if carried through as outlined here, shall automatically drive the Jews into a ghetto."
Did Heydrich give that warning? discussion that I say, "Now comes the possible force of Jewish tenants when they come together, and that was the problem -- to get Jewish tenants together in the same building so that difficulties which would otherwise occur could be avoided. "Jews will have to move quite close together. Every one will have to stand up for the next fellow. The individual alone will starve."
Do you find that? very clearly, "One cannot let the Jews Starve and therefore the necessary measures must be taken." words, didn't you?
"I shall close the meeting this way: That German Jewry shall as a punishment for their abominable," and so forth and so forth, "have to make a contribution of one billion. That will work. The pigs wont commit another murder.
Incidentally, I would like to say again that I wouldn't like to be a Jew in Germany."
Q Were you joking about that too? stopped from getting anything out of the Aryanization of the Jewish property, right?
I call your attention to Document 141-PS, U.SA. 308. That is the order establishing priorities on the claim for Jewish art property. Do you recall that? it in detail the other day. not?
A Yes,indeed. I underlined that. ted to be given to the French museums, which will be auctioned off and the profit from this auction will be given to the French state for the benefit of those bereaved by the war. That, I understand, you have never done?
A I haven't said that it had ever been done. That was just my ppinion, my intention in that decree.
AAs far as paragraph 5 is concerned, I cannot say. I can only refer to the plans which can be seen in paragraph 2, the things the I pointed out, and as I have said the other day that this amount was kept in readiness and that I always asked on which account it should be deposited, and I had estimates made of each individual a object, of all those which should go intothe collection which I desire to establish.
Q: Where was this amount kept?
A: In my bank, under the name "Art Account."
Q: In what bank?
A: I could not say that for sure new. There were several banks in which accounts were kept. In which bank that account "Art Account was, I could not say. I would have to have the documentary materal for that here.
Q: In the several interrogations you have never been able to point out where that fund is, have you?
A: I cannot say, but if you would question my secretary who knew about all the funds, she could tell you quite accurately.
Q: This order, 141-PS, was carried out by the Rosenberg organization, wasn't it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know who carried it out, who actually was there? Did you know Turner?
A: I did not understand the name.
Q: Did you know Mr. Turner?
A: I know a Turner, but he has nothing to do with the Einsatzstab, the Special Staff Rosenberg. As far as I know, he was in Yugoslavia.
Q: Wasn't Staatsrat Turner in Paris in connection with the art collections?
A: I repeat again -- you said Tourner, T-o-u-r-n-e-r or Koerner, K-o-e-r-n-e-r?
Q: Turner.
A: Koerner?
Q: T-u-r-n-e-r.
A. Turner -- I don't know that he would have had anything to do with the Einsatzstab Rosenberg.
Q: But you know him, dind you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you know a Dr. Bunjes?
A: Bunjes, B-u-n-j-e-s, yes.
Q: You know him?
A: Yes.
Q: He had to do with captured or confiscated Jewish art, did he not?
A: I don't believe that Dr. Bunjes had anything to do with that. He was active in a different field of art. The Einsatzstab Rosenberg and several officials of the military administration had to do with it.
Q: I will ask to have you shown, so that you can follow me, to refresh your collection, Document 2523-PS, USA-783, a letter from Dr. Bunjes, and ask you if this refreshes spur recollection of certain events.
"On Tuesday, the 4th of February 1941 at 1830 o'clock, I was ordered for the first time to report to the Reichsmarshal at the Quai d'Orsay. Field Commander von Behr of the Special Purpose Staff Resenberg was present at the report. It is, of course, difficult to describe in words the cordial tone in which the conversation was hedl."
A: No, it would not have been so important that I should have remember it, but I will not deny it, of course.
Q: We'll see if this refreshes your recollection;
"The Reichsmarshal dropped the subject of Turner for the time being and asked for the report of the present state of the seizure of Jewish art property in the occupied western territories. On this occasion he gave Mr. von Behr the photographs of these objects of art that the Fuehrer wants to bring into his possession. In addition, he gave Mr. von Behr the photographs of those objects of art that the Reichsmarshal wants to acquire for himself."
A: I cannot follow here.
Q: You mean you do not find these words, or you do not recall that events?
A: No, I haven't found the passage yet, and I would like to have a little time to see the connection in this letter which wasneither written by me nor addressed to me.
Q: Let me call your attention to a further paragraph of it and see if it doesn't refresh your recollection:
"On Wednesday, 5 February 1941, I was ordered to the Joue de Pomme by the Reichsmarshal. At 1500 o'clock, the Reichsmarshall, accompanied by General Hannesse, Mr. Angerer, and Mr. Hofer, visited the exhibited of Jewish art treasures newly set up there."
art treasures which were exhibited there, that's right..
Q That's right; now we are getting there.
"Then, with myself as his guide, the Reichsmarshal inspected the exhibited art treasures and made a selection of these works of art which were to go to the Fuehrer and those which were to be plac in his own collection.
"During this confidential conservation, I again called the reichsmarshal's attention to the fact that a nets of protest had been received from the French government against the activity of the Einsatzstab Rosenberg, with reference to the Hague Rules on Land Warefare recognized by Germany at the armistice of Compiegne, and I pointed out that General von Stuelpnagel's interpretation of the manner in which the confiscated Jewish art treasures are to be treated was apparently contrary to the Reichsmarshal's interpretation.
"Thereupon, the Reichsnarshal asked for a detailed explanation and gave the following orders;
"First, my orders are decisive. You will act directly according to my orders. The art objects collected in the Joue de Pomne are to be leaded into a special train immediately and taken to Germany on orders of the Reichsnarshal. These art objects which are to go into the Fuehrer's possession and those art objects which the Reichsnarshal claims for himself will be loadedinto two railroad cars which will be attached to the Reichsnarshal's special train, and upon his departure for Germany, at the beginning of next week, will be taken along to Berlin. Feldfuehrer von Behr will accompany the Reichsnarshal in his special train on the tripto Berlin "When I made the objection that the jurists would probably be of a different opinion and that protests would most likely be made by the military commander in France, the Reichsnarshal answered, saying verbatim as follows, 'Dear Bunjes, let me worry about that; I am the highest jurist in the State.
' the Chief of the Paris Military Administrative district on Thursday, February 6, the written order for the transfer to Germany of the confiscated Jewish art treasures."
Now, does that refresh your recollection? to the art treasures with the exception of one sentence, the motion which is expressed here, is the fact that it alleges that I said that I was the highe. jurist in the State because that, thank God, I was not. That is a an expression which Mr. Bunjes used, and I cannot be held responsble for each expression which anyone may have made to sommebody else without my having any possibility of correcting it. The rest, however, is according to the explanation which I gave the other day.
it not? 140*PS. USA-784. Now, I ask you to refresh your recollection by following this report to the Fuehrer with me, and tell me if this conforms with your testimony:
"I report the arrival" -
A (Interposing) I would like to point out that this report did not cone from me.
Q I understand that. I an asking if it is right or wrong.
"I report the arrival of the principal shipment of ownerless Jewish cultural property in the salvage location Neuschwanstein by special train on Saturday the 15th of this month. It was secured by my Staff for Special Purposes, Einsatzstab, in Paris. The special train, arranged for by Reichsmarshal Hermann Goering, comprised 25 express baggage cars filled with the most valuable paintings, furniture, Gobelins, works of artistic craftsmanship and ornaments. The shipment consisted of the most important parts of the collections of Rothschild, Seligman" -- and half a dozen others.
Have you found that and is it correct? cone from me. The only thing that I remember is that I had been asked by the Einsatzstab to take care to see to it that they should have sufficient special cars, box cars, in order to ship the art treasures, since Joue de Pomme was not at all a safe place in case of bombing attacts, nor was Neuschwanstein, south of Munnich, and they were the objects which went to the Fuehrer. which was not written by me, and that goes as follows:
"The action of confiscation by my Einsatzstab, which took place on the basis of your order, my Fuehrer, started in October 1940 in Paris."
Q And would you care to read further ?
A You mean "Outside of this special train, already before the main art objects which the Reichsmarshal had selected, mainly from the collection of the Rothschilds, had been brought in two special cars to Munich and were there put into the air raid shelter of the Fuehrer Building". Those were the ones that at first I had selected following the wish of the Fuehrer, the most precious objects which should have been sent to the air raid shelter, and they have nothing to do with nine, but I did not dispute the fact. I have xplained it in detail. you estimated your art objects as having a value at the time you turned them over to the government of fifty million reichsmark, as I racall it.
A That is not correct in this way. That commission wanted an estimate. There was a strong discussion going back anf forth about it. I told that commission that I could not assess the value because I did not have the objects in front of me and no list, and I could not remember them well enough; furthermore, that it depended also on the markte in gernal and in some cases there is the amateuer value and in other cases the trade vaulue. Since I did not see the minutes and especially since in these minutes there were misunderstandings, I can only identify the protocols which I have signed.
Q Well, do you question this fact, "When I gave the news to the Minister of Finance I at that time estimated the value at fifty million marks". Did you say that or did you not ?
A I cannot estimate the value. I only told the manner in which my collections, including my own, would be turned over to the state, and since he knew my passion for collecting, I told him that it was qyite possible that suddenly something would happen to me and that since I had put my entire private property into these art collections, it could therefore be possible that on the basis of my disposition that the entire collection should become the property of the state, that my family would be deprived of everything and that he should take care to bring about a reasonable balance. That is what I had to say to the Finance Minister, as to which he can testify.
Q What proportion of your art collection was acquired after 1933 statues.
bought?
A Yes, of course. Certainly. financial transactions, was there not?
A I do not know. I do not know who made such inquiries. 7,276,00 from the Rezza Cigarette Factory?
Q You were never asked about it? nor anything about it.
Q Let me refresh your recollection about that. Did you not tell them and did you not tell Colonel Amen in interrogations that this money was given to you by this cigarette factory and that their back taxes were cancelled?
A No, I denied that their back taxes were over cancelled. I remember now that the questions was put to no in a different connection The economist brought up a part in the so-called Adolph Hitler Fund and the distribution of this amount was turned over to no for general cultural tasks. the External Assets Branch of the United Spates Investigation of Cartels and External Assets, were you not? would be ready to make any statements about it and was told that these statments have nothing at all to do with this trial and that therefore the presence of my defense counsel would not be necessary That statment was made defintely and was reported to no also by the people in charge of the prison, and before the interrogation it was again confirmed that my statements made during it would not be brought in in connection with this trial.
It does notmake any difference to me as much. You may produce them, but I want so say this on account of the method used.
DR. STAHMER: I protest against the use of these statements for the reason that has just been given by the witness. I myself sometime ago-- I believe it was around Christmas--was asked by, I belie the American Treasury whether about questions of property they shou hear the defendant, with the definite remark that I did not have to be present at the interrogation because any statement would not be brought up in connection with the trial and would not be used in the course of the trial.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am not able either to affirm or deny, and therefore I will not pursue this subject further at this time. I do not believe that any stipulation was made that these facts should not be gone into. I was not informed of it, and if there has been, of course, it would be absurd. Casino the Casino abbey was brought and do liver ad to you and that you expressed great appreciation for it. of Monte Casino had been completely destroyed by shelling and had been defended by a paratroop division, a delegation arrived one day and brought along a stute entirely without value of some male or female holy person, as a last momente of this destroyed monastery. I thanked the delegation and showed the stutue to the curator of my a* collection, and he also considered the stutue entirely without value. The box remained in the monastery.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think this is coming through sufficient loud for the shorthand writers to hear. my knowledge, has been evacuated following my order. A large part, especially of those objects which belonged to the abbey of the monastery, was sent to the Vatican. I have to assume this from the fact that the abbey of the monastery sent me and my division a personal letter of gratitude, written in Latin, for that action.