DR. DIX: It is a fairly long article. Perhaps I may underline governmental system.
He adds that he pointed out the dangers of maintain intellectual activities.
And he continued to tell the professor that this a victorious Germany and useless for it, seen from a higher level.
He become liberal automatically.
In the end he suggests, therefore, that about help if such contacts were cleverly brought about.
It is the same who had entree to President Roosevelt.
It is the last desperate effort the Tribunal ought to grant me this document as important evidence.
We cannot, after all, assume that this professor is tolling lies.
Technically, his name to be disclosed.
That is a question, and we may have serious difficulties; and since experience seems to prove that something which the professor tells the Basle paper must be true, then why should there be a lie now?
He is a respected man. That is why I think that this piece of evidence would be equivalent to a personal interrogatory sent to the professor. That is why I am asking you to permit me this piece of evidence, not only for translation but also in evidenced. That is document 38. to send the interrogatory to Merton, but I believe that this may be a fruitless effort, a superfluous effort--because the only thing I need this letter for is to prove that Lord Montague Norman returned from a meeting to England in 1939 and that this man Merton was told by him that Schacht was in considerable personal danger because of his political attitude. That is the fact which I was going to use this letter for. This is contained in the letter.
The letter wasn't written to me or Schacht by Merton. It is a letter which the contents of that letter to us.
We didn't think that there was any point in getting Merton as a witness.
We thought that was too complicated and I would have to go to London.
That is document 39.
Regarding No. 49, this is correspondence between Sir Neville Henderson and the editor of the diary of the late Ambassador Dodd.
It is of considerable held against Schacht.
So as to prevent any misunderstanding, I should like of the late Ambassador Dodd.
He was known to both Dr. Schacht and myself with him, in accordance with the diary, were quoted quite wrongly.
No better correspondence between Sir.
Neville Henderson and the editor. As far as the means of these documents.
It is perfectly agreeable to me if they are not of the Tribunal easier.
Schacht will be examined by me and these passages of Goering's statements will be referred to.
If the Tribunal believe that course it won't be necessary to translate these passages at all.
It is there their own purposes.
We have made extracts and if the Tribunal wish, they will be at their disposal.
We are now merely dealing with the affidavits. I don't think we have discussed them but I think the Tribunal is aware of the privilege.
We have prepared ourselves with the affidavits so as to save time
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: I will deal first of all with the documents on behalf of the defendant Schacht.
The following documents will be translated: 34, number 37, number 38, number 39 and number 49. they will not be translated but Dr. Dix is requested to give reference to those documents in his document book. translated, the documents which I have not referred to specifically will be translated.
Now, Dr. Thoma.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, first of all I am passing to the documents which were granted me this morning, allthe works of Rosenberg, "The Myth of the Twentieth Century" being one of them, I am using these documents as proof that the defendant was not conspiring for war and did not participate in a psychological preparation for war. These excerpts are from speeches which the defendant made before diplomats, before students, before Jurists and are meant to prove that on these occasions he spoke for social peace, that he fought for peace, that he did not want world idealogical enmity. Through these speeches he spoke for freedom of conscience and he was interested in attaining a reasonable solution of the Jewish question and he was interested in clarity and Justice in this matter. with the permission of the High Tribunal I wish to call the defendant Rosenberg to the witness stand. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated oath.)
BY DR. THOMA:
Q Mr. Rosenberg, will you please -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, you have not given your exhibits any exhibit numbers, have you?
DR. THOMA: That is RO-7a. They are numbered, I believe, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: When you refer to any of the documents you will give them their exhibit number,
DR. THOMA. Yes, indeed.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, for the purposes of the record, you see, I think you ought to read out a list of the documents which you are putting in, stating what the exhibit numbers are. Have yougot a list there of the documents you are going to offer in evidence?
DR THOMA: Yes, I do Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you just read it into the record?
DR THOMA: Exhibit RO-7, "The Myth of the Twentieth Century."
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR THOMA: RO-7A"G estaltung der Idee"(Formation of the Idea), RO-7B "Blut und Ehre" (Blood end Honor), RO-7C Rosenberg's "Tradition der G egenwart"(Tradition and the Press), RO-7D, Rosenberg's "Schriften und Reden" (Writings and Speeches) and RO-8 "Voelkischer Beobachter", March and September 1933.
THE PRESIDENT: That one was excluded by the Tribunal; 7-E and 8 were excluded.
DR THOMA: I did not cite 7-E, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You cited 8 though.
DR THOMA: I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR THOMA:
Q Mr. Rosenberg please begin with a biographical statement. After completion of the Oberrealschule there I studied beginning in the autumn of 1910 at technical high school at Riga. When the G erman-Russian front approached in 1915 the technical high school, including the professors end students were transferred and evacuated to Moscow and there I continued my studies, in the capital of Russia. There I finished my studies with a diploma as an architectural engineer in January or February 1918 and returned to my native city. the German Army but as a volunteer to the G erman Army but as a citizen of an occupied country I was not accepted, without special permission. Since in the future I did not want to live between the frontiers of several countries I tried to get to G ermany.
The Baltic loyalty toward Russia and German culture were what I had experienced and lived through in Russia.
This made me come to the conclusion to do everything within my power to work in Germany against the moving of political parties into Bolshevism, and I tried to help prevent that. I believed that this movement in Germany, because of the sensitive structure of the German system, would have been a tremendous catastrophe. to Munich. I wanted really to take up my profession an an architect, but, instead, I met personalities in Munich who felt the way I did, and became a collaborator in a weekly journal, which had been founded at this time in Munich. I worked this weekly paper since January, 1918, and at this time I remained as an author and contributor. Then, here I lived through the development of the political movement in Munich until the Raeter Republic in 1919 and its depression.
Q You mentioned Germany as your spiritual home. Will you tell the High Tribunal through which studies and through which scientists you were influenced in favor of Germany?
A I had artistic interests for architecture andpainting. I had also been interested since childhood in philosophical studies and, of course, it was very easy for me to read Goethe, Habe, and Fichte, and to further my spiritual development along these lines. Simultaneously, I was influenced by the social thoughts of Charles Dickens, Bernard, and Emerson of the American literature. I continued these studies at Riga, and, of course, I studied Kant and Schopenhauer in this connection, and, above all, I studied Indian philosophy and Allied fields. European historians. Least of all, in Munich, I entered a later study of the new theological studies. the formation of theidea. Was Goethe responsible for this influence?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, you see, wants you to confine yourself to his own philosophy and not to the origins of these philosophies, insofar as he is referring to philosophical subjects at all.
BY DR. THOMA:
Q How did you come to the NSDAP and to Hitler inMunich? visited by a man by the name of Antox Drexler, who was thechairman of the New Germany Labor Party, and he introduced himself as such. He stated similar thoughts as the thoughts expressed by this journal, and from that time on my first connection arose with a very small group of German laborers, a group which had been formed in Munich. There in the autumn of 1919 I met Hitler.
Q Then did you become a follower of Hitler?
A Yes, at that time I had a conversation with Hitler. At that time I noticed especially his generous aspect of the European aspect as he saw it. He said that in his ominion Europe at that time was in a social and political crisis, a crisis which had not existed since the fall of Rome; that there was much activity in this sphere; and that he personally would be interested to see how the German attitude could fit in. small groups of forty and fifty people. I was present at these speeches, and I believe thatGoethe was speaking and, above all, a soldier who had been at the front, who had done his duty silently for four and a half years. as it is contended here, but later. I was assigned No. 625 as my membership number in the Party. As far as the setting up of the program is concerned, I did not participate. However, I was present while this program was read publicly by Hitler andestablished by him on the 24th of February, 1920. wanted to deal with the social and political crisis. What was the solution of these problems that you were dealing with? of the program, at the end of the twenty-second I wrote a commentary, which has been submitted and read to the High Tribunal in fragments. My entire position and the position supported by us might be stated briefly as follows: social and spiritual consequences. The so-called rationalism was the basis of this thought and created the state of industry and the world state and showed how it had left nature and history.
their homeland and who wanted to have history brought back for their country turned against this one-sided movement. In the early years there was a reconnection to customs of the past and artistic works of Professor Schulz in Naumburg and some poets, and the result was a protest against this onesided movement of that time, and in this connection National Socialism attempted to find a connecting like in full knowledge, however, but in modern movement, and not to be a modern movement and not only a movement in retrospect. We tried to make a connecting like of the social movement of Stuecker and of the national movement of Schoenerer in Austria without taking everything as a model and as an example.
I would like to add that the name "National Socialism", I believe, had its origin in theSudetenland, and here the smallGerman Labor Party took the name of "National Socialist German Labor Party", and it was founded with that name. thought was just why we called ourselves National Socialists. I believe that in these three months of the Prosecution many terrible things have been mentioned, but nothing was said about National Socialism. Germany; that in both camps millions of decent Germans werefighting. The problem which was facing us all was the problem as far as both these camps were concerned; that is, what was to be affirmed as far as the national unity was concerned and how an agreement was being prevented. At that time, and later, we stated, with a view to theproletarian side, that if theclass struggle was a fact of social and political life, and was existing in the present time, but, as far as a world ideological basis was concerned, it would bring an internal fragmentation or dispersal among nations. A tendency of a social conflict, guided by an international center, was the second problem which would prevent a social coordination. The call and the desire for social justice was present among all labor; it was real and necessary.
As far as the bourgeois side was concerned, we believed to be able to establish that some reactionary or privileged circles had worked to the detriment of the people, and also that the representation of national interest could not be based in certain strata; but, on the other hand, the demand of a national basis and a dignified representation would be the point of basis of this thought.
Therefore -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) Dr. Thoma, would you try and combine the witness to the charges which are against him? The charges against the defendants are not that they attempted to reconstruct Germany, but that they used this form of reconstruction with a view to attacking outside races and nations.
DR. THOMA: But, in my opinion, we have to have Rosenberg's thoughts to determine the motives for his actions, but I will ask him this: BY DR. THOMA: the question of labor and capital, that some questions were really international rather than just national, and why did you see a struggle against democracy, and why did you consider that as an international problem?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think this is a continuation of this same line of examination, and I should like to say that no one in the Prosecution has made any charge against this defendant for what he has thought. I think we are all, as a matter of principle, opposed to prosecuting any man for what he thinks. And I say with great respect that I feel very confident that is the attitude of this Tribunal. Therefore, we think it is entirely unnecessary to spell out whatever thoughts this defendant had on these subjects, or on any other, for that matter.
DR. THOMA: I believe that the defendant is also accused of fighting democracy, and I believe that I should put the question for that reason.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the question?
DR. THOMA: Why he was fighting democracy, why National Socialism and he himself fought democracy.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think that has anything to do with this case. The only question is whether he used National Socialism with a purpose of International offensives.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, National Socialism as a concept must be resolved into its constituents.
National Socialism was a fight against democracy. It was a one-sided emphasis of nationalism, and he must have the opportunity of saying just why National Socialism stood for militarism and whether that actually was the case. National Socialism must be shown in its concept so that we can see its constituents.
THE PRESIDENT: What National Socialism was has already been shown to the Tribunal, and he is not disputing the fact that there was a Fuehrer principle introduced into Germany. There is no question about that, why it was introduced. If it was introduced for solely internal purposes there would be no charge in respect of that. The only charges are that National Socialism was used for thepurpose of making aggressive war andperpetrating the other crimes which we have heard of.
DR. THOMA: The war of aggression was justified, in that it was an attack on democracy and t hat it was based on National Socialist -
THE PRESIDENT ( Interposing): Democracy outside Germany, not in Germany. BY DR. THOMA: question that National Socialism favored a master race. Prosecution, and I realize that from the point of view of the number of terrible happenings of the present, one will naturally fall back on the pent and will try to find the origin of the so-called Rassenkunde. I do believe that it is of decisive significance for the judging of this problem that one knows just what we were concerned with and what was at stake.
The word "Herrenrasse", master race, I have never heard as often as in this court room.. To my knowledge I did not use it at all in my writings, did not mention it at all. I again leafed through my speeches. I did not find this word. Only once did I speak of a master race as mentioned by Homer, and I found a quotation by a British author, who in speaking about the life of Lord Kitchener said the Englishman who End conquered the world had proved himself as a Herrenmensch, as a super men.
Then I found the word "Herrenrasse", master race, in a writing of the American scientist, Mendelson Grant, and of the French scientist, Lapouge. like to emphasize that the word "Herrenmensch" super man, in the course of my activity as Minister in the East came to my attention, and very unfavorably so. It was used by a number of the directors of economy and administration in the East. Perhaps when we came to the question of the East I may return to this problem in detail and state just what position I took toward these utterances as they came to my attention. the theory of race, was not an invention of the national Socialist movement but a biological find, as the conclusion of investigations of 400 years, as far as the laws of inheritance ore concerned, which were discovered in the 16th century, then were rediscovered later; that they would give a deeper insight into history than some other theories had made it possible to do.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the defendant is going back now into the origin of the views which he held. Surely all we have got to consider here is his statements in speeches and in documents and they use to which he put the so statements, not as to whether they were 400 years old or anything of that sort.
DR. THOMA: The defendant just happened to speak about this concept, and I will take the opportunity to pass over to the socalled Jewish problem. I would like to ask the defendant the following question. How was it -GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, already my colleague, Mr. Dodd, pointed out that the Prosecution has submitted to the defendant an accusation, concretely stated. I suppose that the most correct pay of carrying on the interrogation on the part of Mr. Thoma would be to pose concrete questions with regard to charges brought against the defendant.
I don't suppose that the Tribunal intends to listen to a lecture on the racial theories or on National Socialism and other theories of the defendant.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I will divide my attitude on questions later on, but since he is known as the ideologist of the Nazis and the philosopher of the Nazis, I think he should have the opportunity to state his views. Of course it is true, and perhaps it might be appropriate, Mr. Rosenberg, if you could be a little briefer in some respects. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Now I would like to ask you this: You believed that the so-called Jewish question in Europe could be solved in that the last Jew should leave the European Continent. At that time you stated it was immaterial whether such a program would find its realization in five years, ten years, or 20 years; it was, after all, just a matter of commmunication. And you emphasized having this question put before an International committee. How did you arrive at this conclusion and this opinion, and why did you arrive at this opinion? What I waited to say was, how did you see a solution in the fact that the last Jew should leave Europe? not give a lengthy exposition of my views. My views I arrived at through a study of history, but I did not study anti-Semitic works. I studied Jewish historians themselves. in the course of national movements of the 19th Century, also the Jewish people would try to fall back on its tradition and its special character. The problem of one people against another was a problem. It was a problem which had been discussed at laternational Congresses, and as a lender on the soil of Asia the Jews were to be returned to the soil of Asia, for there the roots of Jewish blood and of Jewish tradition were to be found.
But as far as the political measures are concerned, I had observed matters of this sort in Russia and in Germany, and I came to the view that this view was a correct one.
I could not quite comprehend how at that time, when the German soldiers returned to their homeland, they were greeted by a Jewish professor's saying that the German soldiers had died on the field of dishonor. I could not understand that such lack of respect could go so far. If that had just been a statement by one single individual, then one could have said that it was a single excess, but it showed, during the course of 14 years, that a certain different will was exerting itself.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, let us talk about something else. Do you believe that a contradiction was called for by certain utterances by the press as far as National Socialism is concerned, that their position brought about a contradiction of the other side and a reply? had already appeared as far as the readers at Munich were concerned, and in Hungary National Socialism could arise.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, how can you explain the fact that in the First World War 12,000 Jewish soldiers died at the front? citizens and that each tragic aspect arose in this development, and, of necessity, there had to be an understanding, but this did not apply to the social and political movement, especially since in decisive organs of the so-called Democratic Party, increasing unemployment was seen in Germany. The suggestion was made that Germans be sent to the French colonies, to Argentina and to China. This suggestion was made by prominent Jewish people, and the chairman of the Democratic Party made suggestions three times, and they favored the deportation of Germans to Africa and Asia to alleviate the rising unemployment. In 14 years many Germans were displaced from Poland without the League of Nations taking any effective steps in favor of these minorities.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, you were the leader of the Foreign Political Office of the Party. What was your function? taking over of power. Many foreigners came to Germany in order to find out set up a nucleus and the Fuehrer instructed me to take over this office.
It had the mission of receiving foreigners who were interested in these problems, of instructing them, of telling them about the various fields of the Party, of the State, and as far as questions of the youth were concerned, about health and other problems that interested them.
Then, as far as suggestions were made to us, we were interested in treating these suggestions, and if they had any merit, transmitting these proposals to the interested departments of the government. investigations and later research we would have ample archives to keep the Party informed politically about the foreign press. Among other things, I was accused of having written articles for the Hearst press. Idid publish some them es in the year '34-'35, but after I met Hearst for about 20 minutes at Nauheim, I did not see him again and I imagine that the Hearst syndicate would have come into difficulty on account of my articles. steps? Political Office have been submitted and discus sed, and I could give a brief summary to the Tribunal about this activity. as the leader of the Foreign Political Office as far as an active agreement or understanding between European nations was concerned. which he mentioned his foreign political opinions and convictions and said that at least some nations could not be interested in coordination. He meant England and Italy. After that time I agreed with him, and through my personal contacts I tried to find a way for understanding between nations.
I talked with people of the British General Staff. I had the opportunity of speaking with them repeatedly, and on their invitation I visited London in 1931, and at that time talked in private with British personalities. the topic "Europe" was discussed and I had the opportunity of speaking. I made a speech about this problem, and my thought in t hat speech was that the development of the last several centuries had been determined by four states and peoples, England, France, Germany, and Italy, and that first of all these four should limit their vital interests so that theycould defend the venerable continent of Europe and its traditions.
I believed that these four nations were the bearers of that tradition. translated for the Tribunal. Italy, Sir Rannall Rodd, come to me and told me that he had Just left Mussolini and he had said that the most important words of the conference had been spoken by me, Rosenberg.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, Please try to be more brief. Hitler, and I visited a number of British ministers whose names are not important here, and tried again to bring about an agreement on the sudden, estranging influence in Germany, My reception was rather reserved, and some incidents occurred which showed that a rather contrary sentiment was at work, but that did not prevent me from keeping up these personal contacts and from meeting many British personalities and inviting them to Germany. Officially, I did not have instructions.
THE PRESIDENT: Why don't you ask t he defendant that the agreement was to be about? Why doesn't he tell us what the agreement was to be about instead of going on talking about an agreement in the abstract?
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I asked the defendant that England and and worked toward it.
The defendant is accused -
THE PRESIDENT: But what was it about?
DR. THOMA: We were concerned with the fact that the
THE PRESIDENT: I don't want you to tell me.
DR. THOMA: I have already asked him Mr. President. BY DR. THOMA:
Q How did you meet Quisling, Mr. Rosenberg? and I had a discussion of 20 minutes' duration with him. Then a collaborator of mine, who was interested in Scandinavian culture and who was a poet, co responded with Quisling. During the following six years I did not see Quisling, and I did not intervene in Norwegian problems nor in the Quisling matter. In June of 1933, when the tension in Europe was very critical, he visited mo and told me of his concern for the situation of Norway. He said it was to be feared who them Nor way could remain neutral, and that his home country would be occupied in the North by Soviet troops and in the South by the troops of the Western powers. He considered these matters with great concern. were given to Dr. Lammers.
Q When was that?
A That must have been in June 1939. Thereupon Quisling was a collaborator for German-Norway agreement; and especially through propaganda, he wanted to make the movement known in Norway.
In August some Norwegians were here. They were to work for propaganda.
They were then brought back.
Q Just What were they trained in, and how? they were trained as to how a more effective propaganda could bi carried on and how the organization of the Party had been organized and worked out in Germany. We were to help when along those lines. before than, an acquaintance of Quisling came to me and mentioned the same concern as Quisling had expressed to me. After the outbreak of the war, this collaborator of Quisling mentioned all sorts of details about the activity of the Western Powers in Norway. Berlin. He made the statement that, on the basis of his exact knowledge of things, he know that it was just a sham neutrality on Norway's part, that in actuality the departure from neutrality was known.
Quisling had been a former Minister of War in Norway, and therefore he had to have exact knowledge of these things. I told him, as a German citizen, that the Fuehrer should hear Quisling.
The Fuehrer then received Quisling twice. Quisling, with his collaborator Hagelin, visited-- Pardon me. I made a speech at that time, and in this speech I suggested to the Fuehrer that he listen to the speech.
Q You personally transmitted only reports which Quisling gave you? was not interested in these things for six years -- Quisling visited me. I hade to consider it my duty, of course, that reports about the military threatening of Germany, if correct, would have to be known to the Fuehrer. to bring about a political change and to ask Germany for support -- I noted these things so that I could report them to the Fuehrer. more precisely than I can state them here. However, I can summarize this. of Norway -