A university could be founded in Kiev; technical high schools should be constructed.
The Ukrainian language should be furthered."
Caucasian territories and this is the verbatim quotation: "It would be the end of this solution to create a Caucasian National State.
One wall national existence and security."
Here, too, the wish for their destruction and has been described as a particularly serious incriminating factor.
It is the so-called colonization and the German property abroad.
This para graph is worded as follows:
"Quite apart from all these problems, there is the question which is of an equally general nature and which we must all think about; namely, the ques tion of the German national property; German national characteristics in that area have worked for hundreds of years.
The result of that work, amongst others, is considerable real estate property.
The property con Prussia; the entire real estate area of the Black Sea was as great at Wuerttemberg, Baden and Alsace together.
In the Black Sea area more land was cultivated than there was ploughed up in Great Britain.
These comparisons to any earlier individual owners.
Just how that may one day be compensated, can be created."
In a later paragraph it states: "We must declare in this connection
THE PRESIDENT: Are you still reading from 1058-PS?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I continue to quote the following paragraph: "We Russian people.
We, all of us, who knew the Russians earlier, knew that the "The fight for a reorganization, and continue openly in the sense of a national self determination of the peoples."
I shall save the Tribunal from listening to the end. I shall come to that in detail verbally.
I made that speech fully convinced that after my he must have agreed in principle.
I did not know, and he did not tell me, been practically impossible for me -- and particularly in Heydrich's presence, dencies Himmler and Heydrich held, as we heard them from the documents here;from this document, I have to say the following:
From amongst men working in In addition be that it was not clear how considerable the require-ments for market goods would be in the East and what the general food situation would be and what might have to be done due to the blockade and in the interests of German food supplies.
This was the prerequisite for the remark that under certain circumstances an increased evacuation of Russian territories might be necessary where the industrial workers might become increasingly unemployed and in connection therewith I should state at once that I am referring to the document 1056, which contains the first directives from the Ministry for Eastern Affairs and which deals in particular with food supplies for the population end which was made a particular duty for the Reich commissars. appointed to the Reich Minister for the Administration of Newly Occupied Territories. On the preceding day there was a conference between Hitler, Keitel, Goering and Lammers, during which you stated your program of administration. I refer to the document L-221, U.S.A. Exhibit 317. It is on page 123 in Rosenberg's document book two -- page 123. cord taken by Bormann, has, of course, been read in this Court four or five times. During that meeting I had actually not intende to state a large scale program, this meeting having actually been called for the purpose of resolving the wording of the intended Fuehrer decree, referring to the administration of the occupied territories and for the purpose of giving all persons concerned the possibility to state their views on that subject. of personal questions which I was going to report to the Fuehrer. I was surprised, therefore, when the Fuehrer passionately and at considerable length commenced to make a lengthy statement and made a number of unsuspected statements to me regarding the policy to be employed in the East. I was under the impression that the Fuehrer himself was under the influence of the unsuspectedly strong rearmament on the part of the Soviet Union and the hard struggle which was going on against the Red Armies.
That apparently was the cause for some of the statements made by the Fuehrer to which I may perhaps refer at the end.
unsuspected statements of the Fuehrer and talked against them and perhaps I may read from the record the following passages which have not been read out from the original document on page four:
"Reichsleiter Rosenberg emphasizes that in accordance with his views the Kommissariat would carry out a different treatment of the population. In the Ukraine we would have to take care of the culture. We must revise the historical consciensce of the Ukraine and found a university at Kiev and the like. The Reich Marshall makes the counter-statement that we have to think first of securing our food situation, everything else could come much later.
"(Incidental question: Is there still anything like an educated class in the Ukraine, or are upper-class Ukrainians rather to be found only as emigrants outside present day Russia?)
"Rosenberg continues that there were certain independence movements in the Ukraine which deserved promotion." the Fuehrer, where it says, and I quote:
"At the same time the Crimea, including a considerable hinterland, situated north of the Crimea, should become Reich territory; the hinterland should be as large as possible.
"Rosenberg complains about this because of the Ukrainians living there.
"(Incidental question again from Bormann: It has appeared to me several time that Rosenberg has a soft spot for the Ukrainians, thus he desires to enlarge the former Ukraine to a considerable extent." strengthening of the knowledge which I had and tried to persuade the Fuehrer to agree to the same points which I made in my speech on the 20th of January, 1941, before the heads of the service departments concerned.
Marshal in particular was interested in appointing the former Gauleiter Koch and that I opposed this candidate since I was afraid that Koch, in accordance with his temperament, might quickly disobey my directives being as far removed from the Reich as he would be. But, in connection with that request I could not have known that Koch by disobeying my directives would go as far as occurred later on and I should like to end right now, in considerably furthering the interests of the Party Chancellory.
there appears a passage which was not been read, which I am now Quoting. It is a lengthy discussion regarding the jurisdiction of the Reichsfuehrer SS.
"Obviously at the same time the participants have in mind the jurisdiction of the Reich Marshal." made by the head of the Party Chancellory and not by any means an actual record, an actual minute of the meeting.
I quote further:
"The Fuehrer, the Reich Marshal and others reiterate that Himmler was to have no greater jurisdiction than he had in Germany proper but this was absolutely necessary." discussion since not only during that conference out also before I had opposed the thought that the police were to have a legally independent executive authority in the occupied territories and were to be independent from the civil administration. I also spoke against the existing wording of the Fuehrer decree which had already been prepared. I did not find any support for my the units from anyone present and that is the explanation for the later developments and the wording of the decree which was signed on the following day by the Fuehrer which dealt with the entire administration in the occupied eastern territories. Eastern Territories and at the same time there were other appointments and the question now arises what was your jurisdiction and the extent of your activities. I refer to document 1997, page 46, Rosenberg volume two. appointment of the Eastern Ministry and paragraph three, which states as follows:
"Military sovereign rights and powers are exercised by the commanders of the armed forces in the newly occupied Eastern territories in accordance with my decree of 25 June, 1941. The powers of the Commissioner for the Four Year Plan in the newly occupied Eastern territories, according to my decree of 29 June, 1941, and those of the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police according to my decree of 17 July 1941, are subject to special ruling, and are not affected by the following regulations."
In Article 6 it states:
"At the head of each Reichskommissariat will be a Reich Commissioner--" and then come detailed remarks stating at the end that the Reich Commissioners and the General Commissioners will be appointed by the Fuehrer personally and that consequently they could not be given leave by me or relieved of their post.
to the Reich Minister and will receive instructions exclusively from him in cases where Article 3 is not applicable; that is the Paragraph 3 which refers to the Commanders of the Armed Forces and the Chief of the German police. the entire administration of their civilian territory. I quote the following paragraph:
"As long as military operations are in progress, the entire railway and postal arrangements must be under the jurisdiction of the ministries concerned." Occupied Eastern Territories, who is quoted as being a resident in Berlin, to, in the interest of the Reich, coordinate his wishes to those of other supreme authorities in the Reich; and that, in the event of differences of opinion, a decision from the Fuehrer must be sought. Forces to the Tribunal since it is sufficiently clear what we are concerned with, nor the decree regarding the powers of the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, dated the 29th of June '41, in which it is stated that the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, that is Reichmarshall G oering, has jurisdiction over all civilian and military departments and can given them instructions on matters of decisive importance. However, for the judgment of the entire legal suggestions in this connection and the consequences which arose from that later on, is the decree of the Fuehrer regarding the security to be achieved by the police in the Eastern Territories of July 17, 1941. It says under I as follows, and I quote:
"The police security in the newly occupied Eastern Territories is a matter for the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police." situation in the Eastern Territories which come under the jurisdiction of the Reichsfuehrer SS, who in that manner, next to the Reichminster of occupied Eastern Territories and alongside of the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, becomes the third independent central department and independent of the Reich in Berlin, with the result that the Ministers for Eastern Territories in his ministry did not have a Security or a Police Department in Berlin nor could he instal one.
from the obvious instructions he would give to his police, to issue directives to the civilian Reich Commissioners directly and that he is instructed that orders of politically great significance should transmitted through the Ministers for the Eastern Territories, being then that it concerned prevention of an immediate threat and danger. This worry gave the practical possibility to the Reichsfuehrer of the SS to make his own decision as to whether he considered it of political importance or not and when his orders with reference to prevention of any threats were concerned. Document 1056, on page 2,058 of the German record of the proceedings, have indicated to the Tribunal that there must be the impression that the Minister for Eastern Territories had units of the SS under his command in Eastern Territories. On the other hand, it appears from Paragraph I, which I have just quoted, that this is incorrect. But, in spite of that, a wording which is often used in connection with the powers of the SS has led to this misunderstanding: and this is mentioned under III of the Police Security Decree, and I quote as follows:
"For the carrying out of police security each Reich Commissioner will be Joined by a senior SS and Police Leader who will directly and personally subordinate to the Reich Commissioner. Leaders of the SS and the Police will be attached to the general commissioners, the chief and the area commissioners, who will be subordinated to them directly and personally."
Dr. Lammers, who had the task of drafting this decree, had replied, upon being asked, that the reason why this to wording was chosen was that they meant that the civilian Reich Commissioner could give instructions to the police in political matters, but that the choice of the wards "personally and immediate subordinate" indicated that the actual giving of orders was exclusively a matter for the Chief of the German Police.
And, as far as I know, Himmler insisted particularly strongly in this wording since it gave the impression to the outside and to the population that the Reich commissioner was achieving a certain unified administration, whereas, even legally and in practice, the power to issue orders bypassed the civilian administration and arrangements existed between Heydrich and the General Quartermaster of the Army, which are facts which I heard for the first time during this trial.
Just how these matters developed and just how orders and powers for the replies were worded, I only heard here.
The other decrees deal with the Reichskommissariat themselves, and I don' t believe that I need quote them to the Tribunal. They are merely the continuation and consequences of the former decree. I should merely like to refer to the Lammers decree of the 9th of February 1942, which refers to industry and armament. I point out that, due to later wishes stated by other authorities in the Reich, the departments for technique and propaganda which had ex existed in the Eastern Ministry were transferred from there and attached to the corresponding ministries. This was done in away that Minister Speer used transport minister stated that propaganda instructions had to be issued by the Minister for Eastern Territories; whereas, in practice, the matters were left to the Minister for Propaganda.
DR. THOMA: I think you should have to be a little briefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the Tribunal hopes you will. the Police Leader and the SS, in addition to that, your relationship to the general plenipotentiary for labor. What was the channel of subordination in this connection? Was Sauckel entitled to give you instructions? ved from the Fuehrer are clear-cut; and the Fuehrer Decree of the 21st of March.
THE PRESIDENT: The question was :" Was Sauckel entitled to give you instructions?" You began to tell us about the Four Year Plan. I am sure you can answer that question directly.
A (Continuing) The general plenipotentiary for the employment of labor had the right to give instructions to all authorities in the Reich, and that included the Minister for the occupied Eastern territories.
Q That's enough. Were you entitled to tell the Reich Commissioner Koch that the quotas of laborers which were required could no longer be fulfilled, yes or no?
A I couldn't do that as easily as that since the plenipotentiary for labor had been given very definite quotas by the Fuehrer, and when these quotas appeared too large to me -- and that was always the case -- I would approach the general plenipotentiary; and his representatives and have conferences together with the representatives of the Eastern Military Ministry so as to reduce the figures to a bearable size; and the reduction of these quotas did, in fact, succeed during many such conferences.
In spite of that, however, the quotas were very high indeed.
MR. DODD: This defendant continues to make a speech. The question was very simple. He was asked whether he was entitled to tell the Reich Commissioner Koch that the quotas of laborers which were required could not be filled. He has now had three minutes, and I'm sure that he will take 30 minutes if he's allowed to go on. He should be kept to all elements, surrounding that question. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Witness, I must emphasize Mr. Dodd's suggestion. I have asked you whether you were entitled to tell the Reich Commissioner Koch that the quotas of laborers which were required could not be filled. Will you please answer yes or no? his rights and his powers? Yes or no? Labor and the document has been presented in court. It is dated December 1942, and in that letter, it was my duty to draw his attention to a number of events and I requested him urgently to do what he could so that these events which had occurred would cease. the strength of the available documents. They are documents which have been presented by the United States. 016-PS, 017-PS, 018-PS, 015-PS, 014-PS, 204-PS, 265-PS, and 031-PS. And I think you can be brief about all these documents since you are talking about your own affairs.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they in the document book?
DR. THOMA: They are in the USA document book. The special document book Rosenberg. The document 016-PS is contained therein.
THE WITNESS: It is a letter from the General Plenipotentiary dated the 24th of April, and addressed to me, in which he states his program. It has been referred to by the Prosecution repeatedly, and I would like to refer you to two points which refer to it.
Laborers verbally:
"To us Germans, it has always been a matter of course that as far as the beaten enemy is concerned, who has been our hardest and toughest opponent but who has been captured, that we must refrain from any cruelty and unnecessary difficulties. We must treat them correctly and humanly, even if we must expect from him a reasonable output."
And then it says, on page 13, in paragraph 5:
"For the Russian campaign too, and for that reason, there must be the greatest care that the principles of German cleanliness, orderliness, and hygiene are observed."
That, as far as I was concerned, was the decisive point. And this principle of the German plan was agreed to by me. And from that agreement arises my letter 018-PS, dated the 21st of December 1942. my agreement to the solution of the Eastern workers problem and I state that we, Sauckel and myself, observe the German principles. That is in reference to the points of the program which have been quoted. occurred which caused me to draw his attention to wrongful methods. at the Eastern Ministry certain sick barracks and camps which were to be installed for sick Eastern workers for their rehabilitation before returning to their own country had not lived up to the expected conditions and that the Eastern Ministry did, in turn, turn to the Reich Commissioner in Eastern Territories. Eastern occupied territories were concerned, I had requested, with all emphasis, that any actions should be excluded in recruiting the quotas which would have serious results and consequences which might some day be held against myself and other officials. In order to achieve this end and to bring into agreement the peculiarities of the Eastern territories.
I have empowered the Reich Commissioner for the Ukraine, insofar as necessary, to make use of his rights and to see to it that methods which run contrary to the interest of the conduct of the war and war economy in the occupied East be abolished. methods were discontinued the workers demands could not be supplied? at the beginning, when the problem came into play concerning rather large numbers of recruits from the country, that a legal basis existed and that the Reich Commissioner had further provisions from that light. Prosecution, 054-PS? That's a criticism regarding conditions which have been reported by officers of the Ministry of Eastern Affairs, by the Army Group South, and which reached me.
It is very severe criticism and I shall re-
fer to page 1 of the letter where it says, that with few exceptions, the Ukrainians in the Reich are working on their own in handicraft, farms, in agriculture, or as household employees, and that they are very satisfied with their conditions, but they complain about the type of shelter they have in collective camps."
This reports the attempt to exert an influence in Germany, it's where I, the Eastern Minister, could not normally give any instructions and there was the attemp to comply with the points raised during that time regarding workers in Eastern territories. provements of the situation in which the members of the families of the workers found themselves and the Ministry of Eastern Affairs is asked to deal with these matters speedily. It refers to a question of pay, a question of taxes, but I don't think I need make a detailed statement. All these questions will be referred to by the General Plenipotentiary for labor. He merely referred these reports to me and I was active in trying to improve the situation. I should like to have, in this situation, a working agreement between us according to which Eastern workers who were returning to their homes were to receive an allotment of land so that they did not suffer any disadvantage over those who had remained in their own home land. which I need not refer in detail and to which I am merely allowing myself to draw to the attention of the Tribunal. Ukraine in which he informs us of the fact that the general plan of labor prisoners, and through his travels in Eastern territories, had pointed out the serious situation in the labor and that he had transmitted and carried out the orders from the Fuehrer. Also, that these quotas must be placed at the disposal of the Reich Commissioner and that he had no choice but to call on certain workers even by means of the support of the police or the local authorities which had been appointed.
great importance since the prosecution has stated, with reference to that document, that I am accused of having collaborated in the planning and carrying out of the biological weakening of the Eastern peoples. And reference is made to my agreement, which is supposed to be stated at the end of this document. I must ask the Tribunal to take cognizance of the true situation, and that I may inform them of it. Eastern occupied territories, with reference to this problem--and after he had once turned down the suggestion that youthful persons should be transferred to the Reich-- would once more state his opinion and refer to special conditions and prerequisites. In the actual record it states that Army Group Center had the intention, considering that a large number of youthful persons were already working there, and because they were not being taken care of, of returning these youths and taking care of them in a proper manner. that this action might have political repercussions and that it would be considered as the kidnapping of children. He, therefore, wanted the action to be considerably limited for those reasons. that action and help carry it out, then the Army Group Center--which, of course, was in no way subordinate to the Eastern Minister -- would carry out the action on their own. particularly because, in their opinion -- and I am quoting -- "the guarantee for a correct political and permanent treatment would thus be assured. The Army Group would like to see this action carried out under the easiest possible conditions. These children should, if possible, be accommodated in villages, in groups, or accommodated in small camps. Later on, from there, they were to be placed at the disposal of handicraft and business concerns."
Then, later on, it states: "In the event of a reoccupation of the territory, the Eastern Ministry can then return theseyouths, who would then cooperate with their parents in the reconstruction of that territory, which would surely be a positive political factor."
At the end it states, "Under these conditions the Minister for Eastern Affairs has agreed to take care of these youths." I agreed, because I was conscious of the fact that I was, wherever possible, going to be able to use the Youth Department of the Eastern Ministry, which would, in turn, guarantee the greatest possible care for those children.
a large works at Dessau, where 400,000 youthful workers were employed, and where a separate children's camp was in existence, under the care of White Ruthenian mothers. I could ascertain that these youthful workers were wearing the best possible clothes, that they were being taught mathematics and languages by Russian teachers, and that the children's camp had a kindergarten which was looked after by Russian welfare workers, who, in turn, were looked after by the Hitler Youth. In the course of the day, the woman who was looking after that camp was thanking me, with tears in her eyes, for this humane care which was being accorded to them. this record. This city, as I said, was Dessau, and not Odessa, as is stated in the record. I never visited Odessa in all my life.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, we have finished the labor problem, and I am coming to the Reich Commissariat; perhaps this would be a suitable moment to go into recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you indicate to the Tribunal how long you are likely to be with your examination?
DR. THOMA: I am of the opinion that we may be through by 4:30.
THE PRESIDENT: Four-thirty this afternoon?
DR. THOMA: Three-thirty. However, the defendant Rosenberg is shaking his head, and therefore I can't tell you for certain.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Court will recess until five minutes past two.
(A recess was taken until 1405 hours.)
Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in in the matter of:
The United States of America, the French Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,*---*
DR. THOMA: I wish to submit to the Court the first document, a secret order by Rosenberg as far as the dignified treatment of the inhabitants of the Ukraine is concerned. That is dated the 14th of December 1942. BY DR. THOMA: together with Document 1065, the views you expressed in connection with that. it was the result of a conversation with various central agencies of the Reid Government who were interested in eastern problems and questions. In this document there are contained principles and directives of the Eastern Ministry itself, also discussions and agreements with technical departments involved, such as the Post Office Department, Police Department, Communications and Traffic, so that at least in the East a certain unified civil administration could be documented and established. For the reasons which I have already enumerate it was not possible. police, which was not granted, I would like to point out and refer to what I said in the beginning as far as administration in the eastern occupied territories is concerned, beginning with June of 1941. among the seven points which are stressed aspecially, the third point was the accomodation and supply of the population and that point was expressely mentioned. Then, further, it is again explained in the document that this accomodation and supplying of the population with foodstuffs and so forth, is to be especially taken notice of, that medical supplies and food supplies are to be given special consideration. However, except for that I do not wish to stay with this document.