that the people did not want to come voluntarily any more? of the victor or of the one to be defeated would cause great excitement among the workers, and it certainly played a great part in it.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle) (Interposing): Dr. Servatius, will you ask the witness what he means by a labor draft law. Does he mean a law of Germany or a law of the occupied countries? BY DR. SERVATIUS: or a law of the occupied countries.
A That varied. The Reich Government, in some of the territories, introduced laws according to the laws that were valid for the German people at the same time. But these laws could not be issued by me.
They were issued by the chiefs of the regional governments or regional administrations. consent of Marshal Petain; in Belgium, after a vote had been taken by the general secretaries or general directors of the ministries then still existing.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean in the other countries by the German Government or the German Government's representatives? You have only spoken of -
THE WITNESS: (Interposing); The directive to introduce German labor laws in the occupied territories was givenly the Fuehrer. They were proclaimed and introduced by those chiefs who had been appointed by the Fuehrer for these territories, because I myself was not in a position to issue any directive laws or regulations there.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q How were these laws carried out? legal publications, then in the press and by posters in those territories. How were the people brought t o Germany? labor office, which was mostly administered by native authorities, and in individual cases, according to my directives which have been submitted here, hardship cases had to be taken into consideration. Then, in the normal manner, as it was also done in Germany, the individual workers or draftees were brought to Germany. and towns in Russia, in France, and in Belgium, and I saw that they were carried out in good order.
Q If compulsion was necessary, what measures were taken? justified in every administrative civil procedure.
Q And if that was not sufficient?
Q So these were legal measures? here that a certain pressure should be used. What did you mean by that? an obligation.
Q Weren't measures used which brought some sort of collective pressure? refusal of collective pressure can seen in decrees which have been issued by other officials in the German Reich.
Q Wasn't it true that in the East the villages, individual villages, were called upon to deliver a certain number of people?
A. Of course, in the East the administrative procedure, on the basis of great distances, was quite difficult. In the lower echelons, to my knowledge, only the mayors who were in office, the native mayors, were carrying it out. It is possible that a mayor had been presented with a quota indicating that from his village or town he had to select and present several workers for the work in Germany.
Q. Is that the same thing as collective pressure, that if nobody came the entire village had to be punished?
A. Measures of that kind were always refused by me in my field, always rejected, because I could not and did not want to introduce into German economy any workers who had been brought to Germany in any way, means or manner, which from the very outset would make them hate the stay and the work in Germany.
Q. What police measures were at your disposal then?
A. I had no police measures at my disposal.
Q. Who carried out measures of police pressure?
A. Police pressure in the occupied territories could be exerted by directive or by demand of the chief of the territory, or the Higher SS and Police Leader, depending on the authority he had.
Q. So you were not responsible for direct pressure?
A. No.
Q. Did you exert indirect pressure by your directives, by measures concerning food and similar measures?
A. After the fall of Stalingrad, Reichsminister Dr. Goebbels in Berlin, at the occasion of proclaiming a state of total war, intervened in all of thes questions. Upon his intervention, in cases of consistent refused to work or continuous resistance and actions of resistance, compulsion was to be used by refusal of additional food rations, and it was to go so far as the taking away of food rations altogether. was well known to me that in the western territories the so-called food ration did not play an important role, and the resistance movement and its members wa such a large organization that this would have been quite ineffective. Theref such measures cannot be traced to my initiative, but possible to my defrees.
stated that if the directive of the Frenchmen does not work, then one would have to put a prefect against the wall. Did you consider this a legally justifiable pressure? resulted in an official influence on my part. That was simply so. that I had been informed that in France in several departments, the prefets or chiefs who were responsible, favored the resistance movement exceedingly; railroad tracks had been blown up, bridges had been blown up, and that was a conversational reaction on my part. I believe, however, that also on that occasion, I was only thinking sabotage was to be punished by death.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in R-124?
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Which page?
DR. SERVATIUS: It is on page 1776, where it says that on the basis of the BY DR. SERVATIUS: French authorities cooperate or whether there were such laws? received, which mentioned perpetrations and impossible conditions which had alle gedly been caused by recruitment measures. That can you state about that, generally things have been mentioned such as you have heard it here, which measures everybody has to reject. You heard of the burning of villages and the shooting of individuals. What is your position as to that? structions that I have issued and which are still available from that period and to which I have to refer. We are confronted here with methods, such, that if I would have heard of any hints of them I would have fought them.
Q Well, who has the imediate responsibility for such incidents?
be in a position to advise us more exactly in the course of the day. I expect that I shall be able to advise the Tribunal as to the Defendant Fritzsche before the session ends today.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that conclude all questions of witnesses?
MR. DODD: Yes, I believe -- at lease, we have no objection to any of the witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, then; there need not be any further hearing in open court on the cases of the Defendants Jodl, Seyss-Inquart, von Papen and Speer until their actual cases are presented.
MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the Defendant Sauckel): Mr. President, I have a technical question to put. Yesterday the witness Hildebrandt arrived, but it was the wrong Hildebrandt again. That is the third witness which appears here in this comedy of errors; it was the wrong one with two others. But the man knows where the right ones are. here and then they came to Berlin to a collecting centre, Lichterfelde. Maybe it is possible to get these two witnesses here from there, especially the witness Hildebrandt, who could speak about the French matters.
He would be o* importance, if I could still have him as a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Was the name given accurately to the General Secretary?
DR. SERVATIUS: The name was right, was accurate, The other name was al Hildebrandt, but not Hubert, but Heinrich. He was also a Ministerialdirektor
THE PRESIDENT: I don't mean only the surname but all his Christion na*
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, one name was Heinrich and the other Hubert, and a abbreviated it was "H" for both, "Dr. H. Hildebrandt", and that is how it happened.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, ifn future the names of all witnesses had better given in full, not merely with initials.
DR. SERVATIUS: I had given the name in full, also the physician, Dr. J I received his private address this morning. He has not been arrested. He was at first a witness for the Prosecution. He is in Essen, on the Viehhof Plats He is there now.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you had had better take up all these details w* the General Secretary and he will give you every assistance.
DR. SERVATIUS: Concerning the case of Sauckel, I should like to make remark. Prosecution and which have a remote connection to Sauckel's case. It was not case that the trial brief was presented against Sauckel or a special indivi indictment against him, so that in detail I cannot see how far Sauckel is he responsible. The case has been presented under the heading of "Slave Labor", that the ground for the Defense is a bit insecure. should like to reserve the right to refer to some of these documents in cas* that should appear necessary later on. I should like to mention only the mo important ones and then in the course of the proceedings to refer to them. any rate, I would not like to make it appear as if there was an admission i* objections are made by me now against any one of these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: No admission will be inferred from that. Dr. Servatius have before me here a document presented by the French Prosecution against Defendant Sauckel.
I suppose what you mean is that that document, that trial brief, entitled "Responsibility Individuelle", doesn't refer to each of these 150 documents.
DR. SERVATIUS: First of all, there was a document book "Slave Labor" had been submitted by the American Prosecution and that is not headed "Sauckel but "Slave Labor" . So that I could not say which parts concerned Sauckel particular.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it does say, "And the special responsibility of Defendant Sauckel and Speer threrfor." That is the American Document Book. does name Sauckel
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And there is this other trial brief presented by MR. Mo* on behalf of the French Delegation, which is definitely against Sauckel, but there is no doubt that doesn't specify all these 150 documents that you are fering to.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
BY DR. SERVATIUS: about a manifest, that writing which was intended to point out to the various offices their duties to carry out your directives and to remove the resistance that existed there. Now, you yourself have made statements which are not quite compatible with your directives, it seems. I submit to you Document R-124. That is about a meeting of the Central Planning of 1 March 1944. There, in regard to recruitment, you said that it would be "necessary to shanghai, as one had done before, in order to got the workers." You said, "I have even resorted to the method of getting myself a staff of Frenchmen and training them to capture human beings in order to got them to Germany."Have you found that?
THE PRESIDENT: Whereabouts in 124 is it?
DR. SERVATIUS: That is R-124.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but it is a very long document.
DR. SERVATIUS: It is in the document itself, page 1770.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have got it.
A (Continuing) That is, as I can see, the report or minutes of a meeting of Central planning of the Spring of 1944. During that year it had become extremely difficult for me to meet the demands of the various groups which were represented in Central Planning. At no time have I issued directives or recommendations for the shanghai-ing of people. Merely in a reminiscent mood, thinking back to my career as a seaman, I wanted to make a rather strong statement, and therefore I used that word in order to make clear to the gentlemen how difficult it was and had become particularly in the year 1944.
In fact, a very simple situation is behind that. According to German labor laws and according to my own convictions, the old word "Arbeitsvermittlung" for the use of manpower was a privilege of the autonomous state and we, and I myself, had always been against private means of recruitment.
In 1944 Minister President Laval, Chief of the French Government, had stated to me that he had the greatest difficulties to see to it that the labor laws were carried out by his own employees. Ditier, there were conferences in the German Embassy. The witness Hildebrandt, I believe, can give us more information about that. These conferences were with the chiefs of collaborationist organizations; that is to say, organizations within the French population which were standing on the basis of collaboration with Germany. These organizations, in the course of these conferences at the Germ Embassy, stated that in their opinion the official recruitment in France had become very difficult and they would like to take care of that and that they would like to make agents for recruitment of their members, and they also wanted to recruit people out of their membership who would like to go voluntarily to Germany, so that recruitment should not be taking place by official agancies but in coffee houses. expenses, and these expenses had to be compensated for, so the age for recruitment should receive a premium and eventually a glass of wine or some liquors. was in such difficulties in the face of the demands put to me that I agreed, without intending, of course, that at any time the concept of shanghai-ing, with its reminiscences of overseas, and so forth, would be taken into consideration. your suggestion? loaders of these French organizations. mention is made of a special executive which you wanted to create for the mobilization of manpower, and it says there, if you wish to read it:
"Beyond that I have changed a few clever people with the establishment of a special manpower executive. That is on the leadership of the Higher SS and Police Leader. A number of native troops were trained and armed, and now I have to ask the Ministry of Armaments to arm these people." events that I have just described. offices of manpower mobilization, and the chief of the department for manpower mobilization in France, President Dr. Ritter, had been murdered. A number of recruiting offices had been raided and destroyed, and for that reason, these same organizations who were standing on the basis of that collaboration had suggested for the protection of their own membership the establishment of a sort of protection group for the recruitment. Of course. I could not do that myself because I had neither authorization nor machinery for doing that, but it had to be done according to the directive of the military commander by the HigherSSand Police Leader; that is, under his supervision. It was done, together with the French Minister of the Interior at that time, Darnaud. For the very same reasons, in order to be able to stand my ground against the reproaches in Central Planning, I brought an example in this somewhat drastic manner. Practically, these hypothetical suggestions were not used,
Q Who carried out, practically, the recruitment of the foreign workers? officials in the various regions or the military commanders or similar civilian institutions, German institutions.
Q You have ordered voluntary recruitment. What was the success of the voluntary recruitment? foreign workers come voluntarily to Germany. the same meeting that we have just mentioned -- you made the remark which goes contrary to that. That is on page 67 of the German photostat, English page 1827. I shall read the sentence to you.
officials who carried them through. had anything to do with the recruitment of labor? which recruited in various ways workers to fill all these other offices; that was part of my job.
Q What kind of offices were they, local offices?
A They were offices of various kinds. I had, myself, found out about them only here, about most of them.
Q What was the "OT"?
A Organization Todt. The OT has independently and for a long time recruited and used manpower.
Q Did the labor service have anything to do with that?
A You mean the labor service of labor leader Hirl? That , I cannot say; that was a German manpower labor organization for the education to work.
Q Were people taken from the armed forces?
A The armed groups, of course; for the establishment of fortifications in the case of local jobs which I neither knew or had any control over, workers were taken from these localities for read constructions.
Q How about the Reichsbahn?
workers whenever they were needed, whenever they needed them.
Q And these offices were now under your supervision? them? very demonstrative manner, I have sent out that manifeste which was mentioned yesterday; since I had no supervision of my own, I had to send it to the various offices to make them heed these instructions.
Q Were there large numbers of workers in the Occupied Territories? power of labor. What about the deportations carried out by Himmler? Did you by any connection with those? not have the least to do with that--never have I or according to my personality and my past experiences, could I have agreed to it, to use prisoners or criminals for work in that manner. I couldn't even do that. I am of rhe conviction that on the basis of my very clear demonstrative statements and actions, one did not even inform me about that whole complex, because that was quite contrary to my opinion, the opinion which I had of work and manpower. I have stated it very often clearly and it is also available in documents here, that I, myself not want to frighten them away. do with recruitment aside from you?
A May I make a short statement in that report? I have heard the word "deportation" in Germany times and I always rejected it because I understand, according to the usage of the German language, I understand the word "deportation" to mean transfer of prisoners, of people who have committed something against the State and on the basis on my opinion about the ethics of work, I have never carried out deportation, but those workers which came through my office -
and that was the paint which I made to Hitler and it was not easy. I have given all foreign workers legal contracts whether they came there voluntarily or on the basis of the German labor obligations, the sane pay and the same nutrition as the German workers. That is why I rejected that concept of deportation for my way of work and my program but the deportations, of which I was informed only here in its terrible extent and with the transport of these workers, I had not to do and to that I can testify to my best conscience. to Germany under all circumstances; that one had to proceed ruthlessly; that it was an absolute necessity to bring these workers in. Does that show that you agreed with such measures? tions: Without a doubt, from various documents, my directives and instructions can be seen--only some could be issued by me because I had no machinery of my own; all these directives from the very beginning prescribe a legal treatment and just treatment. It is correct, however, that I had to repeat that words " under all conditions" in my correspondence with German offices which the Fuehrer had used, speaking to me; that I have used the word "ruthlessly" is also correct to German officers but not with respect to the treatment of workers but with respect to the many arguments, disputes and bickering which came from the German offices which they had amongst themselves and against me -- to a large number, to a large extent, they did not understand thetmeaning of the use of manpower during war time. On the part of the military, the army commanders very often told me, for instance, that it was senseless that I brought those people to Germany. There was the Lasso Army under the Russian general and they wanted that this Russian army should join their army. I rejected that. I did not consider it correct. I did not consider them reliable enough either. Those were the points against which I had to proceed ruthlessly. German officials were concerned with that.
of human beings to Germany? not immediately, but only indirectly--in connection with the use of manpower, and which were very surprising to me in many instances Those were cases concerned with the evacuation of military zones, which very often came surprisingly; that is, with a very short time for preparation, it was indicated that those territories had to be evacuated. the task of the local labor offices to put the population of these evacuated areas to work in areas in the rear, or, as far as they could be used in Germany, to bring them to Germany. culties for me. There were families among them with children and they, of course, also had to be transferred. It was often the wish of the Russian fathers to take their children with them. That could not be done--not because I did not want it, but because it could no be helped. sionally? authorities in these territories, and they were used in agriculture industry, railroads, and so on.
Q Did you have anything to do with resettlement?
A I never had anything to do with resettlement. According to a definite degree of the Fuehrer, that was the task of the Reichsfuehrer SS. German territories?
A Yes. I had about four conversations with Rosenberg, at his request, and he told me about those bad conditions. There was no doubt on my part that such conditions could not be justified.
Q Did he speak about Koch?
There were considerable differences between East Minister Rosenberg and Reichs Commissar Koch.
Q Could you do anything against Koch? indirectly, and I could not give him any directives in such matters. I had him know, from the outset, that I could not agree with such measures as I had heard about through Rosenberg, although I had not received any proof. to Rosenberg--that in his territory he was the solo authority. He also pointed that out to me.
Q Didn't Rosenberg see the cause for these conditions in the fact that your demands were too high?
A I also spoke to Rosenberg about that. I personally was of the opinion that if the demands were divided as they were, it was quite possible to fill the quotas. In the long run, however, I had orders and directives from the Fuehrer and the Central Planning Group. were supposed to be used? discussed by us, but in many directives I had put these methods down unequivocally. I even went so far as to issue and distribute my nanifesto, even to the lower-level offices, so that they could carry it out. occurred against my decrees, and which I objected to.
Q I want to refer you to document 118-PS. That is in the "Slave Labor Brief", page 10.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not page 10. It is number 10.
DR. SERVATIUS: It is USA Exhibit 186. In the English "Slave Labor" book, it is document 10. That is a letter of 21 December 1942.
BY DR. SERVATIUS: Rosenberg complains about the methods used by your agents and assistants. For what kind of offices were you held responsible? because I did not have any offices there, but the Reichs Commissar did. self to the wrong person?
A Rosenberg says, on page 2: "I authorize the Reichs Commissar for the Ukraine, so far as necessary, to make use of his authority." did not see clearly how the authorities were divided in his territory? in office a short time. Rosenberg? Did you do anything? with him at once. Since it was shortly before Christmas, the 21st of December, 1942, I sent a telegram, to Wiemar. I called a meeting at Wiemar, by telegram, for the 6th of January, where representative of various offices in the East were invited. I also invited Reichsleiter Rosenberg to this meeting. Then, at that rally, with all clarity and beyond doubt, these offices were again charged to use nothing but definitely legal methods.
DR. SERVATIUS: In that connection I would like to point to document S-82. That is in document book Sauckel-III, page 206. I also submit the handbook itself, where a number of documents can be found.
the principles of recruiting. He spoke to 800 people who were employed in the manpower mobilization program.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say 800?
DR. SERVATIUS: Page 206.
THE PRESIDENT: It is 8,000 in my copy. Isn't it 8,000 DR. SERVATIUS: The third book, page 206, document number 82.THE PRESIDENT:
I am looking at document number 82. I thought you said 800 men were employed. I am looking at the beginning of document 82.
DR. SERVATIUS: It begins on page 204. He spoke before 800 people, and not 8,000. It should be 800. That is a mistake in the translation of the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. SERVATIUS: The following is stated:
"Principles of our Recruiting:
"Where the voluntary method fails,and experience shows that it fails everywhere, the obligation to serve takes its place."
"It is bitter to tear people from their homeland, from their children. But we did not want the war. The German child who loses his father at the front, the German woman who mourns her husband who fell in battle, are hit much worse. Lot us abandon every false sentiment now."
THE PRESIDENT: You have left out some of the document, have you not?
DR. SERVATIUS: I did not quite understand.
THE PRESIDENT: You have left out some of the document.
DR. SERVATIUS Yes, I left out several sentences. I so stated. However, I can read the whole thing.
THE PRESIDENT: I only mean on page 206. I didn't mean the whole document. On page 206 you have just skipped two sentences.
DR. SERVATIUS: There are four sentences. I will read them again.
"Where the voluntary method fails, the obligation to serve takes its place." Then I left out two sentences, which I shall read:
"This is now the iron law for the employment of labor in 1943. In a few weeks from now there must no longer be an occupied territory in which the obligation to serve is not the most natural thing in the world."
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you also leave out the words "experience shows that it fails everywhere"?
DR. SERVATIUS: I read that the first time; I wanted to save time.
"We shall discard the last slags of our humanitarian blabbering. Every gun which we procure brings us a minute closer to victory. It is bitter to tear people from their homeland, from their children. But we did not want the war. The German child who loses his father at the front, the German woman who mourns her husband who fell in battle, are hit much worse. Let us abandon every false sentiment now.
"Here let us be guided by the realization that in the long run a high output can be demanded of foreign workers only if they a re satisfied with their fate.
"I do not tolerate human beings being treated badly.
"Under no circumstances are you, as the recruiting commission abroad, permitted to promise things which, according to the directives and regulations issued, are not possible and cannot be carried out on account of the war. It is much better to intorduce labor conscription and say: 'You must take this upon yourselves and therefore you will enjoy the rights of the workers employed in Germany.
' Who works in Germany has a right to live in Germany, even if he was a Bolshevist. We shall watch here very strictly that the German name not be sullied. You can demand of me any protection in your field of work, but none for any crimes. The name of our nation is holy. For the first time in German history you must represent for the Reich the principles of German labor. Be aware of that at all times." BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Aside from the information which you received from Rosenberg, did you receive any other reports concerning the recruiting methods?