Q That was due to what factor? Einsatz Groups were exaggerated. from time to time?
Q And those reports showed liquidations exceeding those of Group D; is that correct?
Q Did you personally supervise mass executions of these individuals? execution was carried out? area. The registration was abandoned.
Q On what pretext, if any, were they rounded up?
Q Will you continue? for execution. The place of execution was usually an anti-tank ditch or a natural gully. The executions were carried out in a military fashion.
Q In what way were they transported to the place of execution? immediately executed. In this way, the attempt was made to keep the time as short as possible in which the victims knew what was about to happen to them until the time of their actual execution.
Q Was that your idea?
Q And after they were shot what was done with the bodies? were actually dead? not entirely dead and to then administer the coup de grace.
Q And who would do that?
Q In what positions were the victims shot? executed? and given directly to the Reich Minister or to the RSHA. At first the clothing was distributed to the population, but in the winter of '42 it was taken by the NSV and disposed of by that organization.
Q All their personal property was registered at the time?
A Only the objects of value were registered. The other objects were not.
Q. What happened to the garments which the victims were wearing when they went to the place of execution? before the execution.
Q All of them?
Q How about the rest of the garments they were wearing? Groups?
A That was the order in my Einsatz Group. Other Einsatz Groups handled the matter differently.
Q In what way did they handle it? liquidation and killed the victims simply by shooting them in the back of the head.
Q And you objected to that procedure?
Q For what reason? executions suffered spiritually unnecessarily from that.
Kommandos from these victims? RSHA in Berlin or the Reich Minister of Finance. As to the extent they could be used immediately on hand, they were so used. victims? Finance in Berlin.
Q How do you know that?
Q How about watches, for example, taken from the victims? in the same manner?
A Until the spring of '42, yes. Then an order came from Himmler that in the future women and children
Q How had the women and children been killed previously?
after they had been executed?
the spring of '42, what order did you receive with respect to the use of these vans?
these vans and their appearance?
from outside. They were disguised as trailers. They were so mass executions.
The time needed for the transportation was long
Q How were the victims induced to enter the vans?
Q How was the gas turned on?
Q How long did it take to kill the victims ordinarily?
no pain. such van? persons. these vans from time to time?
A I didn't understand the question. the vans? not like to use the vans.
Q Why not? to the members of the Einsatz Kommandos. the Einsatz Groups? Einsatz Group but came from a special Kommando. This Kommando was led by the man who made these vans. The vans were given to the individual groups by the RSHA. Groups.
A I can't say about that. I only know about Einsatz Group D, and indirectly about Einsatz Group C. with respect to these gas vans?
COLONEL AMEN: May it please the Tribunal, I am referring to Exhibit 501-PS, US Exhibit No. 288, being a
Q Will you tell the Tribunal who Becker was? It was he who was in charge of the construction of the vans for Einsatz Group D.
Q Who was Rauf?
A Rauf was group leader in Amt II. He was in charge of motor vehicles at that time.
Q Can you identify that letter in any way?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
us whether you can identify it in any way? "R" on it, and the reference to the man who had to do with the motor vehicles under Rauf seems to testify to its authenticity.
Q So that you believe it to be an authentic document?
Q Will you now lay it aside on the table there? Tribunal why you believe that the type of execution ordered by you, namely, military, was preferable to the shooting in the neck procedure adopted by the other Einsatz Groups? should carry out the executions in a military fashion through orders and would have to make no decision of their own. That is, their instructions should be strictly from without. On the other hand, it was known to me that in the case of individual executions emotional disturbances could not be avoided, since the victims discovered that they were to be executed too soon and thereby were subjected to a prolonged nervous disturbance. Moreover, it seemed intolerable to me that the individual leaders and men were forced in this way to form their own decisions and on these decisions take the responsibility for the killing of a large number of people. executed? done by the Jews themselves. The registration was carried out by a Jewish council of elders.
Q Did the amount of Jewish blood have anything to do with it?
A I can't remember details, but I believe that in this case half Jews were also included in the concept of Jews. the Einsatz Groups and Einsatz Kommandos?
A I didn't understand the question.
the Einsatz Groups? a lesser extent by the SD.
Q Kripo?
A Yes, also the Kripo. Gestapo, Kripo, and to a lesser extent the SD.
Q Were there any other sources of personnel?
A Yes; the bread masses of the men employed were furnished by the SS. The Gestapo and the Kripo furnished the technicians, and the troops were furnished by the SS.
Q How about the Waffen SS? was the SS.
Q How about the Order Police? compared with the other Einsatz Groups? large as the other Einsatz Groups. That changed in the course of time. Individual Einsatz Groups were in the course of time greatly enlarged.
COLONEL AMEN: May it please the Tribunal, I have other questions bunal, but I don't want to take the time of the Tribunal unless they feel that they want any more such testimony.
I thought perhaps if
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken from 1120 to 1130 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, the Tribunal does not think Did you not hear what I said?
at the present stage to leave the matter where it is. But there is one aspect of the witness' evidence which the Tribunal would BY COLONEL AMEN:
described continued after 1942, and if so, for how long a period of time thereafter?
A I de not know. So far as I know, the basic order was not cancelled. But I can remember individual cases in which it would be possible to make concrete testimony on that subject, at least as regards Russia, for very shortly thereafter the retreat began so that the operational region of the Einsatz groups varied.
I do know that further Einsatz groups, with corresponding orders, were put into action in other regions.
Q Your personal knowledge extends up to what date?
Q Your personal knowledge of these activities extends up to what date?
A I still haven't got the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat the question.
Q Your personal knowledge of these activities extends up to what date?
THE PRESIDENT: There must be some technical defect.
THE WITNESS: I can hear now.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you hear now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. BY COLONEL AMEN: activities goes up to what date? riate withdrawals of the order were made about six months before the conclusion of the war. furthermore, I saw a document according to which the liquidation of Soviet Commissars was to be terminated. I cannot recall a specific date.
Q Do you know whether in fact it was so terminated? BY THE PRESIDENT: group. added to the group from the country itself.
Q Including them, did you say?
Q Do you know how many there would be in other groups?
A I should estimate that at the beginning, seven to eight hundred men; but, as I said before, this number changed rapidly in the course of time, for this reason, that individual chiefs of groups asked for additional personnel and got it.
Q The numbers increased, did they?
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
COLONEL AMEN: Now, there are perhaps just a half dozen of these
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY COLONEL AMEN: lines on the chart? is designed to show the intensity of the relationship between those two offices. as well as individual executive matters were taken up. That is to say, in the circle of operations of the SIPO and the, SD. The organizational scheme, seen from the legal point of view, represents an illegal state of affairs, namely, that the RSHA never actually had official validity. chart. Party and state offices are amalgamated in this chart. Under this designation neither laws nor decrees were a legal basis. None of these came from this organization. That is due to the fact that the State Police, in their ministerial capacity, were subordinate to the ministry of the Interior, whereas the SD, despite this organization, was an organ of the Party. should nave to set, in place of Amt IV, the Amt Political Police of the previous Hauptamt Sicherheitspolizei. This office, political police, existed formally to the very end, and it had been preceded by the Police Department of the Ministry of the Interior. At the same time, the Gestapo Amt continued to exist formally, the Central Office of the Prussian Gestapo, the leading office of all the police activities of the country. the Minister of the Interior.
Ministry of the Interior was concerned, it appeared under the heading of the Ministry of the Interior with the heading "Pol", with the corresponding designations of the relevant offices of the previous main office of the Reichssicherheitspolizei. That is to say, "Pol-S" means Sicherheitspolizei. affect the actual conditions, but the Chiefs of the SD and the SIPO were included under this term "RSHA". And the SD main office, which existed until 1939, was given the opportunity of using whatever letterhead it wanted to, either the one or the other.
the forces of the police and to operate in whatever field it was expedient to operate in. But in this office state positions did remain, in a way, dependent on the Ministry of the Interior, and the office of the SD remained a Party Office. of an SS Main Office, a main office in which the members of the SS and the SIPO and the SD belonged to the SS. But so far as the State Offices were concerned, the SS--that is to say, Himmler, as leader of the SSgave these offices no instructions. BY THE PRESIDENT: but what you have been saying the reason why you are shown on the chart as concerned with Amt III, which refers, apparently, only to inside Germany, where, according to your evidence, you were the head of Einsatz Group D, which was operating outside Germany? fact that I was also Chief of Amt III. That was given me as an individual, and not as a leader of Amt III, In my capacity as leader of an Einsatz group I ran into altogether new experiences.
Q I see. And did it involve that you left Germany and went into the area invaded in the Soviet Union? BY COLONEL AMEN: as compared with the solid blue lines on the right-hand side of the chart? dotted lines signify that in these regards there was no direct, immediate chain of command.
Q Was the term "SD" ever used to include both the SIPO and the SD?
A In the course of years the term "SD" was used incorrectly. It cam to be used as an abbreviation for SIPO and SD, without actually being designed for that. "SD" was originally simply a designation for the fact that someone belonged to the SS via the SD Hapt Main Office. When the SD Main Office dissolved and was taken up in the RSHA, the question arose that the designation SD, which was also worn on arm bands, should be replaced by another designation, namely, RSHA.
Things did not reach that point because that work on camouflage, of the RSHA, would have been in danger. when, for example, I read in a Fuehrer order that in France people were to be turned over to the SD, that was a case in point of such a false designation, since there were no such offices in France; and, on the other hand, the SD, so far as its offices were concerned-- for instance, Amt III-- was simply an intelligence organ.
Q Briefly, what was the relationship between the SS and the Gestapo?
A The relationship between the SS and Gestapo were these!
"The Reichsfuehrer SS, as such, took over the leadership of the police and attempted to amalgamate the State Police and the SS, that is to say, on the one hand to employ only members of the State Police, who were active in the SS and, on the other hand, to extend the instutions of the SS, and in this way to provide possible candidates for the State Police. This amalgamation was later extended to bring about the same relationship between the SS and the Ministry of the Interior. did the SD employ?
A One may not use the concept SD in this connection. It is necessary to discriminate between Amt III and Amt VI. Amt III, as the interior intelligence organ, had three thousand main officers, including men and women. On the other hand, the internal intelligence service worked with honorary personnel, that is to say with men and women who could divide the internal intelligence services with their experiences in their service. I would judge that the number of them was roughly one thousand. typical transaction was handled through the channels indicated on the chart?
A First, a general example in order to make things clear. Himmler discovered through experience that more and more saboteurs were being dropped from planes in Germany and were endangering transportation and factories. He told this to Kaltenbrunner and instructed him to make his subdivisions aware of this fact and to take measures to see to it that these saboteurs should be eliminated as soon and as completely as possible.
offices. This order was drawn up by the appropriate office in Amt IV taking, as well as on their effects.
These reports went back through transaction handled through the channels indicated on the chart?
parties after the events of the 20th of July. This order was also transmitted from Himmler to Kaltenbrunner.
Kaltenbrunner passed it Kaltenbrunner and sent to the regional offices.
The reports were COLONEL AMEN:
May it please the Tribunal. The witness is now available to other Counsel.
I understand that Colonel Pokrovsky present working.
Therefore, at the pleasure of the Court, I would mass executions.
On whose orders have you been as an inspector at the executions?
THE PRESIDENT: I did not get the answer to that question.
Q Was it on your initiative?
Q At the executions was one of the chiefs always present?
inspector? For what reason was a person sent for inspection purposes?
the order?
A No, that is not a correct statement of fact. He should
Q What kind of conditions have you in mind?
A First of all the exclusion of spectators. Secondly, the carrying out of the executions in a military way.
Thirdly, an easy unnecessary emotional disturbances.
Fourthly, the supervision of the handling of objects of value to avoid any exploitation.
Of do not recall now.
At any rate, these measures were designed to taking away those valuables?
Q What kind of property have you in mind?
or a most complete acquisition of those valuables?
Q You mentioned ill-treatment. What have you meant under ill-treatment at the executions?
emotional excitement?
Q Was it necessary to beat the victims?
A. I never saw such case but I heard of such cases.
Q. From whom?
A. In conversations with members of other Kommandos.
Q. You said that for the executions other means were presented,
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where and with whose assistance the inventor has carried out his invention?
A. I can recall only that it was within the purview of Amt II of the
Q. How many people were executed by means of those murder cars?
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. How many people were executed by means of such myrder cars?
A. I can't give you the precise number but it was relatively few.
Q. You said that in these vans mostly women and children were executed.
For what reason?
A. That was a specific command of Himmler's. In this way women and
Q. Has anybody observed the behavior of those who were executed in those murder cars?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that Becker had reported to the effect that the death in these murder cars was particularly painful?
A. No. I heard about Becker's report for the first time in the letter that was shown to me here in Court.
On the contrary, I know from other
Q. Have military units taken part in those executions?
A. As a rule, no.
Q. And as an exception?
A. I believe I recall that both in Nikolaew and Simferopol temporar
Q. For what reason, for what purpose?
A. I cannot say that, probably simply to inform himself personally.
Q. And military units were assigned in most places for the carrying out of executions?
A. The Army had officially no department that dealt with these matters
Q. But, as a matter of fact -
A. Even there voluntary divisions did these things. At the moment I
Q. You testified regarding those who were subject to annihilation.
officials executed?
A. Yes, political commissars, those who were politically active.
Q. There was no special investigation as to the specific part which such a person played in the Communist organization?
THE PRESIDENT: Will the interpreter from Russian into English hold Q. (continuing) I understood that the fact of belonging to the
A. No, I said the opposite. I said the fact of belonging to the enough to have him executed.
He would have had to have been performing a
Q. Have you had any discussion with reference to those murder wagons which were sent from Berlin?
A. I didn't understand the question.