When the amount of work was not reached the chief guard would beat the whole row of women one after another so that the last women would wait petrified with horror, waiting for their turn. The SS very seldom gave it and if the doctor dispensed the woman from work for a few days it very often happened that the sick woman was fetched in her bed by the SS to put put back at the machine.
The atmosphere was frightful because one couldn't open the windows because of the blackouts and there was no ventilation whatsoever. All those who worked at the "Schneiderei eins" after a few months would become skeleton-like; would begin to cough; their sight began to fail; they had nervous fits caused by the fears of the blows. Marie Rubiano, a young French girl, who had spent three years in the Kettbus prison, on arriving in Ravensbruecke had been sent to the "Schneiderei eins" and each evening she would tell me of her martyrdom. One day, exhausted, she was allowed to go to the Revier and on that day the German Schwester Erika was in a less bad humor than usual and she was sent to be examined. Her two lungs were very badly diseased. She was sent to the block of the tuberculars. This block was particularly terrible because tuberculars, not being considered as workers who could be recovered, they were not taken care of and there was not even personnel to wash them. There were hardly any medicines. less. She spent a few weeks there and she had not even the courage to struggle to live. I must say that the atmosphere of this room was particularly depressing. There were very many of them, several to a beds and beds in three tiers, in a superheated atmosphere, lying be-tween prisoners of different nationalities, so that they could not even talk to one another.
Also, the silence of this antechamber of death was broken only by the moans of the German women who did the services and from time to time by the smothered sobs of the little girl who was thinking of her mother, of her country that she would never see again. day, Dr. Winkelmann, the specialist of selections in Ravensbrueck, put her on the black-list and on the 9th of February, 1945, with seventy-two other tubercular women, six of whom were French, she was lifted into the truck for the gas chamber. and all the sick were sent to the gas chamber, all who seemed unlikely to recover so that they could be used for work. beside the crematorium. When the trucks came to fetch the prisoners we heard the sound of the motor through the camp and it would stop just beside the crematorium, whose chimney reached above the high walls of the camp. At the time of the liberation I went to this place and I visited the gas chamber, which was a wooden barracks, hermetically sealed and within there was still the unpleasant odor of the gas. The gas that was used -- I know in Auschwitz in any case -- was the same that was used to gas the blocks against lice. They left little pale green crystals as traces. After opening the windows of the block they were swept out. I know these details because the men used for the disinfection of blocks against lice were in contact with those who gassed human beings and they told them it was the same gas. in Ravensbrueck?
A No. At Block 10 there was likewise experimentation with white powder. One day the German Schwester Martha arrived in the block and distributed to twenty patients a powder. After this the patients fell into a deep sleep. Five or six were seized with fits of vomiting and this is what saved their lives.
In the course of the night little by little the sound of breathing stopped and the patients died.
I know this because I went every day to visit French women in this block, because two of the nurses were French and the woman doctor, Louise Le Porte of Bordeaux, could likewise testify to this.
Q Was it often that this happened? itself but the system was likewise used at the Jugendlager, called thus because it was a former reform school for young German delinquents.
Towards the beginning of the year 1944 Dr. Winkelmann, no longer satisfied with making selections in the Revier, these selections were likewise made in the blocks. All the prisoners had to answer roll-call in bare feet and show their chests and their legs. All those who were too old, ill, too thin, or whose legs were swollen with edma, were set aside, and then sent to this Jugendlager, which was a quarter of hour away from the camp of Ravensbrueck. I visited it upon the liberation. old women and the patients who could not work should be enrolled for the Jugendlager, where they would be much better off; where they would not have to work; where there would be no roll-call. We found out later, through some people who worked at the Jugendlager -- the chief of the camp was a woman I knew from Auschwitz, named Bensenvitz -- and from a few of these survivors, one of whom is Irene Auclaire, a French woman living in Drance 17, Rue de la Liberte, who was repatriated at the same time that I and of whom I had taken care after the liberation. Through her we found out details about the Jugendlager. the SS doctors who made this selection, were they acting on their own or were they obeying orders? Lukas, refused to participate in the selections and was withdrawn from the camp and from Berlin was sent Dr. Winkelmann, who replaced him.
Q Are youpersonally aware of this fact?
A He is the one who said it to the chief of the block when he left and Dr. Louise Le Porte.
the men of the camp at Ravensbrueck were in on the morning of the liberation? chronologically, this comes before. had left our camp, were put in blocks where there was no water and where there were no conveniences, on piles of straw on the ground, so close together that one couldn't pass between them, so that at night it was impossible to sleep because of the coming and going and the prisoners would dirty one another as they passed. The straw was rotten and swarming with lice. Those who could stand up would make the roll-call for several hours. In the month of February their coats were taken away from them, and they would continue to answer roll-call, which greatly increased the death rate. quart of retabaga soup and the only drink that they had for twenty-four hours was half a quart of tea. They had no water to wash nor to drink, nor to wash their eating utensils. could no longer stand up were placed. During the calls, periodically, the "Aufsehrein" would choose prisoners who would be undressed and who were allowed to keep only their shirts. Their coats were given back to climb into trucks and they would go off to the gas chambers. A few days later the coats would come back to the camp, that is to say, the clothing storeroom. There were marked "Mitwerder." The prisoners who worked at this store told us that "Mitwerder" did not exist, that it was a nomenclature for the gas chambers. sick would die like those in Block 10, of which I spoke a while ago.
THE PRESIDENT: The details of the witness' evidence as to Ravensbrueck seems to be very much alike, if not the same, as at Auschwitz. Wouldn't it be possible to now, after hearing this amount of detail, to deal with the matter more generally, unlessthere is some substantial difference between Ravensbrueck and Auschwitz.
M. DUBOST: I think there is a difference which the witness has pointed out to us, which is that in Auschwitz the prisoners were simply exterminated; that it was simply an extermination camp, whereas at Ravensbrueck they were interned to work, were exhausted with work to the point where they died.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are any other distinctions between the two, no doubt you will lead the witness, I mean ask the witness about those other distinctions.
M. DUBOST: I shall do so. (By M. Dubost) the men's camp was found at the time of the liberation and how many survivors there were?
number of volunteers, including myself to take care of them. They left us without water and without light. Fortunately the Russians arrived the following day. We therefore went to the men's camp and there we found a sight which is impossible to describe. They had been for five days without water. There were eight hundred seriously ill, three doctors and seven nurses, who were unable to pull the dead from the sick. Thanks to the Red Army we were able to transport these sick into clean blocks and to give them food and care. But unfortunately I can give the figure only for the French. hundred and fifty who were able to return to France; for the others it was too late in spite of the care we gave them. were they carried out?
A I did not assist at any executions. I know only that the last one that took place was on the 22 of April, a week before the arrival of the Red Army. The prisoners were sent, as I said, to the Kommandantur; then their clothes would return and their cards were taken out of the file. a part of a system? one has not been in them once because one can only cite examples of horror but one cannot give the impression of this slow monotony. When one asks what was the worst, it is impossible to answer because everything was atrocious. It is atrocious to die of hunger, to die of thirst, to be ill, to see around you all your companions dying without being able to do anything; to think of those children of one's country that one will never see again and at times we wondered ourselves if it was not a nightmare, so completely unreal did this life seem to us, so horrible.
We had a will for months and years; all that we could hope for was that a few of us would be able to come out to be able to tell the world what the Nazis were like. Everywhere as in Auschwitz, as in Ravensbrueck, the companions who were in other camps related the same facts; the systematic will, the implacable will to utilize men as slaves and when they could no longer work, to kill them.
Q Have you anything more to state?
M. DUBOST: If the Tribunal wishes to question the witness, she is at your disposal.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I have no questions.
DR. MARX: I speak for counsel of the SS, Attorney Babel. Attorney Babel is prevented this morning from appearing here, since he has to attend a conference with General Mitchell. questions dealing with this matter. BY DR. MARX:
Q Why were you arrested?
Q I didn't hear the answer.
Q Activity in the resistance movement. Now, a further question. Your testimony shows--please wait until my question is completed.
What preconceptions did you have, and what attitude did you take?
A What was that? What did you say? I don't understand the question.
Q What position did you occupy? Did you ever occupy an official position?
A Where?
Q For example, as a teacher or lecturer?
A Before the war?
A I don't see what the question has to do with that. I was a journalist.
Q Yes. The matter is thus: In your testimony you showed great fluency in style and expression, and I should like to know whether you had such a position as teacher or lecturer. so well that you are now in a good state of health?
A First of all, I was liberated a year ago. In a year once has time to recover. Then, next, I was ten months, as I indicated, in quarantine, and I had the luck not to die of typhus, although I had it and was ill for three months and a half. worked to make the roll-call of the Revier so that I didn't have to be subjected to the bad weather. Out of 250, only 52 of us were left at the end of four months. I was lucky enough to come back.
Q Yes. Does your testimony concern itself only with your own observations, or did you also give testimony that was hearsay?
A Each time I pointed out in my statement when this was the case. I never said anything that was not verified at the sources, and by several persons, but the major part of my statement is based on a personal experience. instance, that 700,000 Jews arrived from Hungary? that I was a friend of the Secretary of the Oberhaufseherin, whose name and address I gave to the Tribunal. according to the testimony of the Gestapo Chief, Eichmann.
A I don't want to argue with the Gestapo, I have good reason to know that what it declares is not always true.
Q How were you treated personally? Were you treated well?
What are your grounds for this statement? Lorraine soldiers of the Wehrmacht said to us, in the train, "If you knew where you were going you would not be in such a hurry"--.
THE PRESIDENT: Madam, you are going too fast.
A (Continuing): I have this information, on the one hand, from the fact that the Lorraine soldiers of the Wehrmacht, who transported us to Auschwitz, told us, "If you knew where you were going, you would not be in a hurry to get there." On the other hand, from the fact that the German women who came out of quanantine together and worked in factories had knowledge of these facts, and they all said that they would tell on the outside. worked, they were in contact with German civilians, as well as with the Aufseherin. They had relations with their families and friends, and often would tell what they had seen.
Q One more question. Until 1942 you were able to observe the behavior of German soldiers in Paris. Did these German soldiers behave altogether decently, and didn't they pay for what they took? massacred for me to wish to express an opinion on this subject.
DR. MARX: I have no further question to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have no further questions, there is nothing more to be said.
DR. MARX: Very well, I am finished.
THE PRESIDENT: There is too much laughter in the Court; I have already spoken about that.
DR. MARX: I simply wanted to make the provision for attorney Babel that he might later take the witness under cross-examination, if that is possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Babel did you say?
DR. MARX: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon; yes, certainly. When will Dr. Babel be back in his place?
DR. MARX: I presume that he will be back this afternoon. He is in the building. However, he must first read the protocol deposed by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: We will consider the question. If Dr. Babel is here this afternoon we will consider the matter, if Dr. Babel makes a further application.
Does any other of the Defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions of the witness?
(No response)
M. Dubost, have you any questions you wish to ask on re-examination?
M. DUBOST: I have no further questions to ask.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness may retire.
M. DUBOST: If the Tribunal will allow, we shall now hear from Mr. Veith, another witness. JEAN FREDERIC VEITH took the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you calling this witness on the treatment of prisoners in concentration camps?
M. DUBOST: Yes, Mr. President, and also because this witness can give us information on ill-treatment which certain war prisoners had been victim of in concentration camps. It is not merely a question of concentration camps, but of soldiers who had been transported to concentration camps and who had received the same treatment as civilians.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you won't lose sight of the fact that there has been practically no cross-examination of the witnesses you have already called about the treatment in concentration camps? The Tribunal, I think, feels that you could deal with the treatment in concentration camps somewhat more generally than the last witness.
Are you not hearing what I say?
M. DUBOST: Yes, I hear it very well.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that you could deal with the question of treatment in concentration camps rather more generally now, after we have heard the details from the witnesses whom you have already called.
M. DUBOST: Is the Tribunal willing to hear this witness? BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath?
Do you swear to speak without hate or fear?
Q To say the truth, all the truth, and only the truth?
THE PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand.
THE WITNESS: I swear it.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you like to sit down?
THE WITNESS: Thank you. BY M. DUBOST:
Q Will you give your name, please? Give your first name.
Q Are you of French nationality?
Q Of birth?
Q You were a prisoner in what camp? until the 22nd of April, 1945. Luftwaffe with material? Who controlled these factories? and consequently I have seen all the matters which relate to the work.
Q Who controlled the factories working for the Luftwaffe? Heinkel, at Messerschmitts, at Fabian, at Sauer Werke, Wien, and the working of the tunnel of the Abel Pass, which was by the Alpine-Montana.
Q Who controlled this work? Was it your surveyors or engineers?
A There was only as SS surveyance. The work was controlled by the engineers of the factories.
Q Did these engineers belong to the Luftwaffe? Messerschmitt factories that were in the vicinity. prisoners were living and working?
Q Did you see any Nazi officials visiting the camp?
A I saw numerous officials; among others, Himmler, Kaltenbrunner, Pohl, Maurer, the chief of the Labor Bureau, and numerous other visitors, whose names I do not know.
Q who told you that Kaltenbrunner came there? Kommandatur, so we could see the persons arriving; and the SS themselves would tell us "There is so and so; there is so and so."
Q Could the civillian population be informed of what was going on? a road which was close to the quarry, one could see everything in passing on this road. Besides the workers, the prisoners worked in the factories. They were separated from the workers, but just the same they had certain contacts with them, and it was quite possible to know what their conditions were. castle of a car containing prisoners which were never seen again? to eliminate the ill. It was particularly Dr. Spritzbach, who, at a given moment-- he was called Dr. Spritzbach by the prisoners because he had inaugurated the system of injections. At a given time injections ceased to be made, and at this time the people that were too ill were sent to a castle, which we later learned was called Altheim, which was officially designated as Genesungslager; that is to say, a convalescant camp. None of the people that went there ever returned. We received the lists of deaths directly from the political section of the camp. These lists were secret. All those who went to Altheim died. The figure is about five thousand.
Q Did you see war prisoners arrive at the Mauthausen Camp?
A I saw war prisoners, certainly. Their arrival at the Mauthausen Camp, first of all, happened before the political section. As I was working at the oelerei, my office overlooked the open space, which was before the political section, where the convoys arrived. These convoys were immediately selected.
Some were sent to the camp to be registered, and so on. Very often prisoners in uniform were put aside. These guards, passed through their hands, and nothing was further said of them. They were not registered in the camp. It was through the political section that this happened, which was in charge of these prisoners.
Q They were war prisoners?
A They were war prisoners. They were in uniform.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't go so fast, please.
A (continuing) They were generally men in uniform.
BY M. DUBOST:
Q Of what nationality?
Q They were taken to your camp to be killed?
Q Can you tell me how you found out about this action? the dolorite service in Mauthausen, and consequently I received all the transfer sheets of the various camps. And when there were K prisoners, who by mistake were transferred to us as ordinary prisoners, we would put on the transfer sheet, which we had to send through the Central Office of Berlin no, we did not put any numbers on these sheets. The Politische Leiter gave us no indication and even tore up the list of the names if, by chance, it reached us. actions concerned war prisoners who were taken while attempting to escape. Later this action was extended still, to soldiers, but extended to certain individuals, particularly officers caught in the countries taken by the Germans, who had escaped but who had been captured again. as not in conformity with the desires of the Nazi Chiefs could also be subject to Action K. These prisoners arrived at Mauthausen and would disappear; that is to say, they were brought into the prison and were immediately executed.
They would pass to the annex of the prison, which was the famous Block 20 of Mauthausen.
Q You are talking about war prisoners, are you not?
A Yes. This applies in major part to war prisoners. to the Mauthausen camps? hours of their arrival?
A I saw the arrival of the convoy of the 6th of September; I think that is the one you are referring to. I saw the arrival of this convoy, and in the afternoon these 47 went into the quarry clothed merely in shirts and underdrawers. Shortly after, the sound of machine guns was heard, and as I came out of the office I passed behind, pretending to bring documents into another office, and with my own eyes I saw that these poor unfortunates had been shot down. Eighteen of them were executed that very afternoon, and the others were executed the following morning. All the death certificates carried the notation afterwards, "Shot while, attempting to escape".
Q Do you have the list of names?
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps this would be the best time to break off.
(Whereupon at 1250 hours the hearing of the Tribunal adjourned, to reconvene at 1400 hours).
Military Tribunal, in the matter of:
MARSHALL OF THE COURT: If the Court please, it is desired to announce that the defendant Kaltenbrunner will be absent from this afternoon's session on account of illness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may go on, M. Dubost.
M. DUBOST: With the permission of the Tribunal, we are going to complete the questioning of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Have him brought in.
(whereupon the witness again took the stand and was questioned further by M. Dubost as follows): this morning; will you furnish some additional information concerning the execution of 47 Allied officers whom you saw shot in 48 hours in the camp at Mauthausen where they were brought?
which was used when the prisoners were to disappear or to be done away with. That is to say, they made them work in an exaggerated fashion. They beat them and made them carry heavier and heavier stones, and so on until either they were forced to the end of their strength and they tried to reach the barbed wire. They either went voluntarily, or they were pushed toward it, and at that time when they approached the barbed wire, and they were about one yard away, they were shot with a machine gun by the SS troops. This was the customary system used, which was called "caught while trying to escape". It was alleged that they were trying to escape.
Q Do you know their names? on the official registers of the camp, and since I was concerned to transmit or to make known all changes of names in the forces, making it known to Berlin, I saw all the lists of those who came and went.
Q Did you communicate this list to official officers? after my freedom. I immediately went back to Mauthausen after my liberation, because I knew where the documents were, and at that time the American authorities had all the lists which we were able to find.
M. DUBOST: Mr. President, I have no further questions to ask the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the British Prosecutor want to ask any questions?
BRITISH PROSECUTOR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the United States Prosecutor?
UNITED STATES PROSECUTOR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any members of the Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions?
DR. BABEL (Counsel for SS and SD): Mr. President, I was in the camp at Dachau on Saturday, and yesterday at the camp at Augsburg, Wuerthingen. I made a few discoveries there which put me now in the position to ask questions of individual witnesses which I previously was not in.
First of all, one question. I was not present
THE PRESIDENT: Will you try to go a little more slowly?
DR. BABEL: Yes. I was not present at this morning's session because of a conference I had to hold with General. Mitchell. Consequently, I could not be present during the testimony of this witness. I should like to ask one question of the witness and should like to know whether I can then later take the witness under cross-examination, or whether I should ask those questions now?
THE PRESIDENT: You can cross-examine this witness now, but the Tribunal is informed that you left General Mitchell at 15 minutes past ten.
DR. BABEL; Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: There was no reason
DR. BABEL: Because of the conference with General Mitchell, I had to despatch a telegram and do other various pressing duties which kept me away from the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: You can cross examine this witness, certainly.
DR. BABEL: I have, first of all, simply one question.
(Cross examination by Dr. Babel). toward the barbed wire. By whom were they so driven? that accompanied them, and all of the staff of Mauthausen were present. They were beaten by the SS and by one or two of the green prisoners, who were in the camp and who were the KAPO. Those KAPO were very often worse than the SS. wire enclosure, there were almost no SS guards, and that was probably the case also in Mauthausen. Is that so? they changed, and no one of the troops who were on guard could be unaware of what was going on since, if they weren't within the camp, they went out and then they saw from outside the camp exactly what was happening even if they weren't within. wire enclosure? the barbed wire. barbed wire by anyone?
A These guards could observe this very easily. There were several occasions that there were sentinels who refused to shoot for what they didn't consider an attempt to escape. These guards were immediately relieved from their posts, and they disappeared.
Q Did you observe that yourself?
A I didn't see them myself, but it was related to me, among others, by the Kommandofuehrer who told me that a sentinel had refused to shoot.
Q Who was the commander?
A This work commander chief was Viermann. I am not sure exactly of his rank.
He was not Unterscharfuehrer; he was one grade below Unterscharfuehrer. His name was Viermann. He had the section in which I was at Mauthausen.
MR. BABEL: Thank you. One more question. Then I shall make an application to be able to cross examine the witness later on, and to ask the questions further, I should like that the witness be kept in Nurnberg for the purpose that I shall cross examine him later. I am not in a position now since I was not at the morning session to ask those questions because I am not familiar with his testimony of the morning.
THE PRESIDENT: You ought to have been here. If you were released from an interview with General Mitchell at 10;15, there seems to the Tribunal to me at any rate - to be no reason why you shouldn't have been here whilst this witness was