in Naples which had been deposited there at Monte Casino -- a large part of those was also taken by us to Venice and there turned over ot the Italian government.
Very few pictures and statues were brought to Berlin, and there they were turned over to me.
On the very same day I presented the list to the Fuehrer, and a short time later, from my air raid shelter, also the objects, so taht he, the Fuehrer, could negotiate about them with Mussolini. Of these objects I did not keep a single one for my collection. If my troops would not have intervened, then these objects of art which had been stored in Monte Cassino and belonged to the monastery would .have been destroyed by the shelling and bombing of the anemy, that is to say, the American-British enemy, without an trace. In this way they are still in ecistence.
Q Now, you say of no value -- no substantial value?
A That is my conviction today still, and I depended, first of al* on the judgment of my expert. Therefore, I have never taken that statue out of the box. It was uninteresting for me. And then, again, I wanted to say something nice to the men who brought ist. of 1941, was it not? Russian prisoners of war, did you not?
A Employment for what? you gave that order, was it not? ly I issued these directives. selected in collecting camps beyond the Reich border, and should be transportes as rapidly as possible and employed in the following order of priority: mining, railroad maintenance, war industry-tanks, artillery pieces, airplane parts, agriculture, building industry, ect. You gave that order, did you not?
A I must have given that order; otherwise, I cannot remember it.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the number of that, Mr. Jackson?
Q I ask to have you shown document No. 1193-PS.
A I haven't seen that document yet.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
A Excuse me. I have just received the document about the use of Soviet Russians. Is that the one you meant?
Q That is right. I call your attention to the fact that it is referred to as an annex in the letter signed by Goering.
A I just wanted to point that out. This document was not signed by me, buy by Koerner. But that does not make any difference as far as my responsibility is concerned. you gave the order, as Koerner reports it, do you, in the document referred to as 1193-PS? and here even by a still younger official, a regierungsrat, and that I only wanted to state that this was my field of competence. Therefore, I assume responsibility. But I have not read it yet. This dea* with directives and outline which I have given generally, and which were worked out by the department concerned afterwards. And, of cou* not every word or every sentence, such as it is written here, could have been discated by myself, but that does not change or alter the fact that I assume the responsibility for it, even id I didnot know it in detail or the formulation may have been a different one if I had written it. But the general directives were given by me, and, accordingly, worked out by the other instances. be taken from among the French prisoners of war not yet employed in armament industry, and are to be assigned to the armament industry, airplane industry. Gaps in manpower resulting therefrom will be filled by Soviet prisoners of war.
The transfer of the above-named French prisoners of war is to be accomplished by October the *1st.
You gave that order, did you not?
A That is correct. Here we deal primarily with the fact that a large part of French expert workers which were in capivity were prisoners of war and were free workers under the condition that they would work in the German armament industry, and the shortages which occurred at their previous places of works, where they had worked as prisoners of war, should be filled by Russian prisoners of war, because I considered it unreasonable that qualified experts in industry, for instance, in agriculture or anywhere else should not do the work which was according to their capibility. Therefore, I made sure that these people could become free workers instead of prisoners of war if they would consent to that work. There were the decrees, the outlines, which I established. Germany?
A Duty labor, " pflicht arbeit." 1945, that " I would like to add something to the last question of the last interrogation. The Colonel asked me if the forced labor program was effective, and I said Yes. There are two remarks I would like to make to that,.
"All right.
" I must say that in the results as such it was effective. However, a great number of acts of sabotage did happen, and also treason ans espionage.
"Question: But on the whole you would say it was a successful program from the German point of view?
"Answer: Yes. Without this manpower many things could never have been achieved." Did you say that? cannot do any work.
had been a success. What do you say to that? Did you say that?
manpower was successful, Manpower used was successful; that is corrected BY MR, JUSTICE JACKSON: you, and you have said that you received it. at one period, were you not?
A I explained that the other day, yes; and I explained how far. wanted your position abolished in event of war, did he not -- your economic position.
A Not quite. There were the same functions of authority at the same time -- two different persons, and that in the long run was incompatible, It simply had to be made clear which one of the two should have the authority, ans especially in the case of a mobilization that would have been very urgent. relations with Schacht, made this statement, did you not, in reference to your disagreement with Schacht: This I must underline, Schacht always tried to slide out and up and achieve yet a now position, while all the other ministers cooperated absolutely. Did you say that?
A Not exactly as it is there. I wanted to emphasize that, contrary to the other minisers who followed my directives for the Four Year Plan etc. without difficulty, I had certain difficulties with Schacht, which I have explained already, on the basis of his being a very strong personality. or in those words? in substance.
Q Now, do you have in mind Schacht's letter to you, 3700-PS?
Q And in that letter Schacht said this to you, did he not refer-
ring to 5700-PS? " It may he military necessary"-- Do you want to follow it?
( A document was handed to the witness).
"It may he military necessary to conscript the 15-year olds, but it will be a heavy burden, on the fighting morale of the German people The facts as the German people see them are as follows:
"First, the original promise of a short war has not been fulfilled.
"Second, the promised quick victory over England by the air for did not materialize.
"Third, the public statement that Germany would remain free of enemy air raids has not been fulfilled.
"Fourth, the repeated announcements that the Russian resistance was definitely broken have been proved to be untrue.
"Fifth, Allied supplies of arms to Russia, and the manpower reserves of Russia have, on the contrary, been sufficient to bring continuous heavy counter-attacks against our Eastern Front.
"Sixth, the original victorious advance into Egypt has been halted after repeated attempts.
"Seventh, the landing of the Allies in North and West Africa, declared impossible, has, nevertheless, been accomplished.
"Eight, the extremely large amount od shipping space which was required for this landing has shown that our U-boats, in spite of their great successes, did not suffic to prevent this moment. In addition, any person of German extraction can see the reductions in the civilian supply, in the traffic, in armaments, and in the availability of manpower.
" The conscription of the 15-year olds will increase the doubt concerning the ermination of this war." you received that letter? but the year is missing. If I would get a copy where the year could be seen I could answer it more clearly.
I have said the other day that I assume, according to the events mentioned, that that must be either November 1944 or November 1943, but, unfortunately, that is not indicated here.
I can only read 3rd of November. The year is missing.
Q Do you know when Schacht was sent to the concentration camp?
Do you know the date of that ?
1944, I believe Mr. Schecht was already in the concentration camp;
patching that letter to you, wasn't he ?
Q How much longer was he at large ?
days, after I returned, that is to say, in September 1944. A the least because when I asked about his arrest, I was told defi sians, Lithuanians and Tartars between the ages of 15 and 20?
Did you come to some agreement with Himmler and Rosenberg about that?
don't think so. My office, however, that is quite possible and Friday-- as follows:
Let me refresh your recollection about the questions of confiscation "Now, about the question of the confis confiscated.
As far as I know, yes, private property is mentioned in the official report; so far as the winter of 1941 and 1942, could not be confiscated."
And I think you also said that you never took anything, down to the last screw and bolt, when you were in occupation of foreign territory. Do you recall that testimony ?
Q Do you still stand on it ?
Q I ask to have you shown a document EC 317. Now, that is a secret command matter, is it not, dated the 5th of September 1943.Is that right?
A Yes, indeed; page 3.
Q This letter of transmittal we will not bother about. Your secret command matter is dated the 7 September 1943, is it not ?
Q And it reads as follows: "Concerning the evacuation of the harvested crop and the destruction of the means of production in the agricultural and food economy in parts of the occupied territories; by direction of the Fuehrer, I give the following order:
"First. In the territories east of the line fixed by the highest military command, the following measures are to be taken gradually, according to the military situation at the time. The measures are to be determined by the O.B. (Oberbefehlshaber) of the army groups:
"(1) All agricultural products* means of production, and machines of enterprises serving the agricultural and food economy are to be transported away.
"(2) The factories serving the food economy, both in the field of production an of processing, are to be destroyed.
"(3) The basis of agricultural production, especeally the records and establishments, storage plants, etc., of the organizations charged with seizing the food economy, are to be destroyed.
"(4) The population engaged in the agricultural and food economy is to be transported into the territory west of the fixed line."
Right ?
A Absolutely correct; but I want to state in connection with it, that we are dealing here with purely military measures in a retreat and for thes four points, with respect to these four points, I have emphasized the other day that a great number of agricultural machines had been brought to Russia by us. After the Russians, when they retreated, destroyed everything, we had all the less military reason to leave our machines which we had brought there and established there and to let them fall into their hand not destroyed. This is an order of urgency and for military reasons which had been issued in the case of a retreat and which was executed in the same way as before in the reverse case.
Q And it was signed by you?
MR: JUSTICE JACKSON: I am about to go into a different subject, may it please your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we will adjourn now.
( A recess was taken until 1525 hours.)
(U.S.A.787) of which there are no extra copies available because it came to us so late. I will ask you to examine that and tell me whether you recall the meeting to which those minutes refer ? situation which arose daily with the Fuehrer, perhaps once or twice a day. Since a situation occurred once or twice daily, I cannot, with any accuracy, make any statement without first having read the report. I cannot recall the report of 27 January 1945 for I experienced any number of these situations during the course of the war.
Q I shall call your attention to specific incidents in it. The minutes indicate that the Fuehrer, yourself, Keitel and Jodl were present, were they not?
A Yes, it's according to the notes. with me the notes and see if it refreshes your recollection. Now, this relates to 10.000 imprisoned air force officers. I quote what is attributed to you.
"Goering: Dear Chief, there are 10,000 imprisoned air force officers. The commander of the replacement army is in charge of guarding. The transportation forces are supposedly non-available. The thought was expressed if one should not leave the prisoners to the Soviet Russian Armies, they would receive 10,000 fliers.
"The Fuehrer: Why were they not shipped away earlier. This is an unheard of neglect.
"Goering: That is the business of the commander of the RTA. We have nothing to do with it. I can only report it.
"The Fuehrer: They must be removed and if they have to march in the dirt the Volkssturm Fegelein must be called in. Whoever tries to escape will be shot. It must be done by all means.
"Goering: That is, from Sagan, there are 10,000 men.
"Gluecke: When transferring, the 4th Armored Division moved out completely, also the 227th Division, and also the remainder of the 32nd Division is now moving. The next in line is HQ, of the 3rd SS Panzer Corps.
During the night, from today to tomorrow, and from tomorrow to after tomorrow.
The Division Niederland has already pulled out. Parts of the Division Nordland have alse been pulled out from the front lines.
"Fuehrer: Are you getting replacements now? Are they already on the move?
"Goering: Fegelein took care of that. He has already ordered that htey should be reinforded.
"The Fuehrer: Is it absolutely clear that the army group Weichsel has nothing, for the time being, except the Corps Maehren, and the one group, and it is at the River Weichsel? This is to be worked first. It will come from here and partly from Germany. It must be done, nevertheless.
"Goering: How many box cars areneeded for 10,000 men?
"The Fuehrer: If we transport them according to German standadrs, then we need at least 20 freight trails for 10,000 men. If we transport them according to Russian standards, we need 5 or 3.
"Goering: Take their pants and boots off so that they cannot run in the snow."
Do you recall that incident?
A I believe that I remember this incident but vaguely. After I have given the answer I would like to qualify and give my opinion of the value of this document. I understood that this document just now arrived, but I have already been interrogated with respect to this document long before the beginning of the proceedings, and at that time I pointed out that the stenographic record of the situation -- two stenographers were active and the situation often took place over a period of 4 or 5 hours -had to be worked over or gone over afterwards and that frequently, because of the presence of many people, inaccuracies occurred in translation that expressions used by one were accredited to another in the minutes. For that reason, at that time I mentioned the fact that I not only did not remember this expression, but that according to my conviction and view, I have never made this expression. We were concerned solely with the making ready of freight trains for transporting.
Q Well, I must say that you were interrogated with reference to the incident, but not with reference to these notes which were not transcribed.
emphasiced that we were concerned with a stenotype record of this report and I already uttered my opinion a t that time in a light manner, but it was not submitted to me. But that, of course, is correct.
You are also referred to page 35. I call your attention to this and ask you, is it attributed to you mistakenly?
"Goering: The 10.000 prisoners in Sagan should be transported away by Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner." Perhaps I do not pronounce the word as you would.
"the Fuehrer: These prisoners must be removed by all available means.
Volksturm must be employed -with the more energetic people. All who attempt to flee will be shot.
"Fegelein: We have a man for that who guards the concentration camp. This is Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks. He must do the job."
Did that occur?
A That I cannot say. I have already testified that BDE had to take over the transporting away of these prisoners. We were not concerned with it, and what arguments or clarifications the other gentlemen made in the conversation I cannot testify completely at this point. We are concerned with the question of whether these 10.000 men were to be surrendered or transported off.
Q I will ask you a question or two about the Warsaw bombing. Was it known to you that on the 3rd of September, the House of the Ambassador of the United States, situated some 17 Kilometers out of Warsaw, was bombed by the German Air Force? of Warsaw and used them for distribution among the German people, did'nt they? event, the Luftwaffe did not distribute pictures to the German people. It is possible that pictures taken by the Luftwaffe might have gone into the German press, but distribution, in the sense of the Luftwaffe distributing photographs or forms of leaflets, that never took place. the afficien of its hits, did it not? after the target had been attached to determine whether the target had actually been hit.
Q I ask to have you shown five photographs and ask you if those are not photographs taken by the Luftwaffe, following the attack on Poland.
(Witness shown photographs) taken by the German Luftwaffe, I regret I cannot give you a positive answer for there are no surroundings shorn and there is no identification that these were made by the German Luftwaffe. Four out of the five pictures are oblique pictures, as though they had been taken from a church steeple rather than from an airplande, from where only direct vertical pictures could be taken. The picture showing the destruction of parts of Warsaw might be technically a vertical picture and might be possibly considered as such. The date is lacking and none of the pictures give any proof that they come from the Luftwaffe. And too, I would like to mention, if they had been taken by the Luftwaffe -- I will assume that is so, so that all possible questions will be facilitated.
Q You say you will assume they were taken by the Luftwaffe?
Q I do not want you to give away anything here. If you think they were not taken by the Luftwaffe I do not want you to admit it.
A I said there is no proof here as to that fact. I did not take the pictures, I do not know them, they were not submitted to me as Luftwaffe pictures and from the technical point of view if made from a plane, they were made by a private camera in an oblique direction. True aerial pictures as they were made technically by the Air Force were vertical pictures and these are not vertical pictures.
Let us take up Document 633 PS (U.S.A. Exhibit 788) about which you have been interrogated and which, as I recall, you authenticated.
(Witness shown document)
This is the document which was signed by Dr. Jodl and I ask you to follow me.
"From the Reichsmarshal's plans of 24-9-42.
"First: The Reichsmarshal is looking for daring fellows who will be employed in the east as Sonderkommandos (special purpose) and who will be able to carry out the task of creating confusion behind the lines.
They are to be formed into bands under leadership and with interpreters alloted to them.
For this purpose the Reichsmarshal is considering convicts who are first offenders, who have committed not particularly heinous offense, for which there is human understanding.
"The Reichsmarshal first of all mentioned persons convicted of poaching. He knew, of course,that the Reichsfuehrer SS had picked out the so-called poachers and they were already in his hands. He requests, however, that the question be re-examined. The only suitable men are those with a passion for hunting, who have poached for love of the trophy, not men who have laid snares and traps. The Reichsmarshal also mentioned fanatical members of smuggling, gangs, who take part in gun-battles on the frontiers and whose passion it is to outwit the cusboms at the risk of their own lives, but not men who attempt to bring articles over the frontier in an express train by similar means.
"The Reichsmarshal leaves it to us to consider whether still another category of convicts can be assigned to these bands or pursuit comands.
"In the regions assigned for their operations, these bands, whose first task should be to destroy the communications of the partisan groups, could murde burn and ravish; in Germany they would once again come under strict supervision.
"(Signed by) Dr. Jodl, 24-2-42."
Do you wish to make an explanation of that document to the Tribunal?
A Yes, with the same explanation which I gave at that time. The first two paragraphs show definitely and without objection that I wanted only those people who had committed no offenses against honor but first of all poachers and we differentiate between the poacher who has a passion for hunting and whose who wish to steal solely. who show a certain passion, and those who do it for less worthy causes. criminals of any type and that is why I contradicted the last paragraph in the strongest language that I might have those intentions. We are not here concerned with minutes but with notes of an official with whom I talked. If he acutally heard these words from me he would have to attest to the correctness of these words and I underline this strongly as being my view. At that time I mentioned the concept of violation which I alwats punished with death even if members of hostile states were concerned and I denied and refused that expression and I again point out that the main paragraphs are to the utmost a contradiction of the last remark because if it had been a matter of indifference to me I could have selected criminals.
Then, I expressed and established above, that their main task behind the lines was to be destruction activities, to disrupt communications or railways and lastly, the whole thing never did take place.
Q You objected to the word "ravish" which had been translated the first time "rape" and that is the only objection you made to this document when it was presented to you. Is that not correct?
A No, it is not correct that way. I say this because it is a most significant concept which contradicts my opinion and view of right for even after the taking over of power I had a strengthening or a sparpening in this direction and I wanted to show that this entire latter paragraph had not and could not ha* been uttered by me. I refuse to accept this statement. I gladly will take responsibility for even the most serious things which I have done but this utterance I refuse to acknowledge and I reject it completely and utterly.
Q Who is the signer of this document?
A Dr. Jodl.
Q Yes -- you knew him?
A I knew him slightly. I saw him at this conference.
Q He was present at the conference? through Reichskommissars? follow my economic principles.
Q And were to report to you on economic matters? ciples or touched upon my principles.
Q And who was your Reichskommissar in Poland?
A Reichskommissar in Bland -- chore was none. There was a General Govern* and he was Dr. Frank.
Q And who was the Reichskommissar in the Netherlands?
A Reichskommissar for Holland was Dr. Seyss-Inquart.
Q Who was the Reichskommissar for Norway?
Q Terboven -- he was also a Gauleiter you say?
Q You appointed him to Norway or attained his appointment? diction nor did I have him appointed. I did not contradict his appointment in any way but I considered him competent for the position of Reichskommissar.
Q And he was there from 1:40 until 1:45.
from Terboven to you.
(The document was handed to the witness).
That is a communication of the 1st of May, 1942, is it not? dressed to you as Reichsmarshall, "My esteemed Reichsmarshall", is that right?
Q Omitting the first paragraph, unless you care to give it, "Several days ago on an island west of Bergen we have flushed out a Norwegian sabotage unit which was trained by the Secret Service, and have found that during this, extensive stores of sabotage instruments, some of them of a new kind, among which poison and bacteria can probably be found, and which so far as they are known have been forwarded to the Reich Security Main Office for closer examination, Besides other tasks, this sabotage unit was to begin with their sabotage work with the explosive devices of which a sample is available on Sola and Herdla. This can be constructed from fine written directives, Since it must be assumed that similar actions are under way on air fields of the remaining European coast, and assuming that a means of sabotage actually unknown until now is in question here, I forward it to you by the fastest means in order to beve you the opportunity to be sure to issue the appropriate warning order. Unfortunately, two especially deserving officers of the Security Police were killed in the fight against the sabotage unit. We buried them this morning at about 1000 hours in the Heroes' Cemetery in Bergen. On the same day and at the same hour eighteen Norwegians were shot on my order. These had been captured some time previously in the attempt to go to England illegally. Also, on the same day, the entire community which granted a hiding place to the sabotage unit was burned down and the population was deported. All males were sent to a German concentration camp without their families receiving any notification about it. The women were sent to a female forced-labor camp in Norway and the children not capable of working to a children's home.
Heil Hitler. Yours obediently,Terbove Is that correct?
Q Terboven remained after that report until 1945, didn't he?
A That's correct. to those reported by Terboven to you, did you not? oven, didn't you, in substance?
A I -- where?
(Document U.S.A. 789, handed to the witness).
Now, this is a decree of October, 1942, by Goering. I ask you to follow me:
"Simultaneously with the intensified combatting of gang activity ordered by the Fuehrer and the cleaning up of the hinderland, in particular that behind the Army Group Middle, I request that the following aspects are taken into consideration and that the deductions drawn therefrom are put into practice:
"One, during the combatting of the Underground and the combing through of the areas contaminaded by them, all available cattleesto* there must simultaneously be driven off to safe areas. Food supplies are to be evacuated and protected similarly, so that there will be no more accessible to the bands.
"Second, all masculine and feminine labor which can be consider for some kind of employment must be seized by force and transported to the plenipoteniary, chef, of the labor exchange, who will then employ them in safe areas of the hinterland or at home. The accommo dation of the children in the hinterland camps is to be regulated separately."
Is that right?
AAbsolutely. We were concerned with those areas of bands, and no man could demand of me that I have foodstuffs and cattle for the bands who harrassed us so tremendously and bands -- those people who might have been used if band activity had to be taken into regions which were assured us and had to be used for manpower.