Q You know about the general plan for treatment of prisoners of war, which we have had in evidence as the "Aktion Kugel" plan, didn't you ?
A No. I knew nothing of this action. I was not advised of it.
Q You were never advised of Action Kugel ?
document and the expression. Never did an officer of the Luftwaffe ever advise me of such, and I do not believe that any officer was ever transported off. This report was never presented to me, in any event. ed officers, other than British and American, were to behanded over to the police and taken to Mauthausen, where they were shot by the device of having a gun concealed in the maesuring equipment when they thought they were getting their prison clothes. You know what Aktion Kugel is, don't you ?
Q Are you telling the Tribunal that you didn't know that escaped prisoners of war who were picked up by the police were retained by the police and taken to Mauthausen?
A No, I did not know that. On the contrary, on occassions when escape happened through my camps the escapees were returned by the police to the camps, and this was the first case in which it did not take place completely.
Q But didn't you know that Colonel Welder, as second in command of your ministry's inspectorate, issued a written order a month before this, in February 1944, that prisoners of war picked up by the Luftwaffe should be delivered back to their camp, and prisoners of war picked up by the police should be held by them and no longer counted as being under the protection of the Luftwaffe; didn't you know that?
A No. Please ask this colonel to testify so we can determine whether he ever made a report of that nature to me.
Q Well, of course I can't tell whether your ministry was well run or not, But he certainly issued the order, because he says so himself.
Q I see. Well, he says that he issued this order, and you know as well as I do that prisoners of war is a thing that you have got to be careful about, because you have get a Protecting Power that investigates any complaint, and you never denounced the convention and you had the Protecting Power in these matters all through the war, had you not? That is right, isn't it?
A That is correct. But I just wanted to know who gave him this order, whether he received this order from me. That was my question.
Q Well, he wouldn't get it direct from you. I don't think you had ever met him, had you? He would get it grom Lieutenant General Grosch, wouldn't he? that from me. I never gave an order like that.
Q I see. So you say that you had never heard - - this was three and a half years after the beginning of the war -- and you had never heard that any escaped prisoners of war were to be handed over to the police. Is that what you ask the Tribunal to believe?
A As far as escaped prisoners of war are concerned, who had com-
mitted offenses, these, of course, were turned over to the police. I believe. But because of an attempt at escapa, and just because of an attempt at flight they were handed over to the police or to a concentration camp or that an order of that nature was given, I wish to certify that I neither knew of this or that I ever gave an order of this kind.
Q This is my last question: I want to make it quite clear, witness, that I am referring to those who had escaped, who had got away from the confines of the camp and were recaptured by the police. Didn't you know that they were handed over to the police?
A No. Only if they had committed crimes like a murder, and that, of course, took place at times.
prisoners of war handed over to the police were those guilty of crimes or misdemeanors?
A I did not express myself that way. I said if the police apprehended prisoners of war they were those who committed a crime during the escape, and as far as I knew they were retained by the police, were not returned to the camp. In other cases, how the police kept prisoners of war, without returning them to a camp, that I could gather from interroga tions and explanations here.
Q Would you look at Document D-569? Would you look first at the top, left-hand corner, which shows that it is a document published by the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht ? side, has the following: The Reichsfuehrer SS and the Inspector of Concentration Camps -got it? The second person to whom it is distributed is the Air Minister and Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force in 22 November 1941. That would be you.
A That's correct. I would like to make the following statement connection with this. and then make your statement upon it. I shan't stop you. I want *---* look at the third sentence in paragraph one. This is dealing with *---* prisoners of war, you understand. The third sentence says: If es Soviet prisoners of war are returned to the camp in accordance with this order, they have to be handed over to the nearest service station of the Secret police.
if they commit crimes owning to the fact that at present these misdemeanors on the part of Soviet prisoners of war are particularly frequent, due most likely to living conditions still being somewhat unsettled, the following temporary regulations come into force. It may be amended later. If a Soviet prisoner of war commits any other offense then the commandant of the camp must hand the guilty man over to the head of the Security Police. will be handed over to the Security Police? You understand this document says a man who escapes will be handed over to the Secret Police, a man who commits a a crime, as you mentioned, will be handed over to the Security Police.
Wasn't that the condition that obtained from 1941 up to the date we are dealing with in March, 1944. will be torn from context.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFFE: I thought your Honor might have read it. technical matter of the arrangement of exhibits? When I cross examined Field Marshal Kesselring I put in three documents, U.K. 66 which becomes Exhibit GB-274; D-39, which becomes GB-275; TC-91 which becomes GB-276, so this document willbecome GB-277.
Q Have you had an opportunity of reading it, witness? escaped were to be after their return to the camp handed over to the Secret State Police. If they committed a crime they were to be handed over to the Security Police, isn't that right?
A Not exactly correct. I would like to point to the third sentence in the first paragraph. There it says, "If a camp of prisoners of war is nearby so the man who is recaptured is to be transported there."
Q But read the next sentence, "If a Soviet prisoner of war is returned to the camp" -- that is in accordance with this order which you have just read -- "they have to be handed over to the nearest service station of the Secret State Police." Your own sentence.
A Yes, but the next paragraph shows "because."
Q The last answer, would you mind repeating it please? Frequent acts which are punishable which are occurring frequently but by itself this order was given and it was distributed to the Army, to the Sea Forces, and I would like to give the explanation to this: in this war there were not only hundreds but thousands of orders which came from subordinate officers and were transmitted, and that does not mean that each of these many orders was transmitted to the Commander-in-Chief; only the most decisive and most important were shown to be had.
The others went from department to department, and this order came and is signed not by the Chief of the High Command but by one of the subordinate officers.
Q That order would be dealt with by the prisoner-of-war department of your ministry, wouldn't it?
took, received this order, but no other resort or department received it. by your prisoner-of-war department, your ministry; isn't that so?
Q It is quicker, you see, if you say "Yes" in the beginning; do you understand?
A No; there is a difference whether I personally have read the order or not, and I will take my attitude as to responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: You weren't asked about responsibility; you were asked whether it would be dealt with by your prisoner-of-war department. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: the 24th to the 25th of March. I want you to have that date in mind. The decision to murder these young officers must have been taken very quickly, because the first murder which actually took place was on the 26th of March.
Do you agree with that? It must have been taken quickly? immediately, but it had no connection with this document.
Q No, no; we are finished with that document: we are going into the murder of these young men. The Grossfahndung -- a general hue and cry, I think, would be the British translation -- was also issued at once in order that these men should be arrested; isn't that so?
A That is correct. Whenever there was an escape where some prisoners escaped, automatically in the whole Reich a hue and cry took effect, that is, all offices had to watch to apprehend the prisoners. Grossfahndung, there must have been a meeting of Hitler itinerate with Himmler or Kaltenbrunner in order that that order would be put into effect; isn't that s
A That is correct so far as I heard afterwards; and as I said, Himmler was the first to report this escape to the Fuehrer.
Q Now, General Westhoff, who was in defendant Keitel's Kriegsgefangenenwesen, in his prisoner-of-war set-up, says this that "On a date, which I think was the 26th, Keitel said to him, 'This morning Goering reproached me in the presence of Himmler for having let some more prisoners of war escape. It was unheard of!" Do you say that General Westhoff is wrong?
A Yes. This is not in accordance with the fact. General Westhoff is referring to an expression of General Field marshal Keitel's. This utterance in itself is illogical, for I could not accuse Keitel; for he could not have said that. The guarding was his responsibility and not mine.
Q One of the defendant Keitel's officers dealing with this matter was a general inspector, General Roettich. I don't knew if you know him. to assure everyone that his senior officer had nothing to do with it, and he goes on to say this about General Roettich: "He was completely excluded from it by the fact that these matters were taken out of his hands. Apparently at that time conference with the Fuehrer in the morning, that is to say, the conference between Himmler, Field Marshal Keitel, and Goering, which took place in the Fuehrer's presence, the Fuehrer himself also took a hand in these affairs when officers escaped." You say that is wrong? You were at no such conference?
A I was not present at this conference, neither was General Westhoff; he is giving a purely subjective view, not a factual report.
Q So that we find that you don't think -- you think -- that Westhoff is wrong? You see, Westhoff, he was a colonel at this time, I think, and now he finishes as a major general, and he asks that the senior officers be questioned about it; says that, "It should be possible to find that out, that Himmler made the suggestion to the Fuehrer--to find that out from Goering who was present at the conference."
Again and again Westhoff, who after all is a comparatively junior officer, is saying that the truth about the matter can be discovered from his seniors. You say that it can't?
A I would not say that; I am just saying that General Westhoff -I would just like to say that General Westhoff was never present for even a moment, therefore he can not say I know or I saw it; that Reichsmarshal Goering was present. He is assuming or he may have heard it. to you; that Keitel went on to say to him at General von Graewenitz's, "General, these escapes must stop. We must set an example. We shall take very severe measures. I am only telling you that, for men who have escaped will be shot; probably the majority of them are dead already." You never heard anything of that? nor at the conference--Fuehrer-Himmler. As far as I know General Westhoff will be testifying here, aid in additional General Field marshal Keitel will be able to say whether I was there or not.
Q Well then, I am bound to put this to you. I come oh to your own ministry. I suppose in general you take responsibility for the actions of the officers of your ministry from the rank of field officer and above? -- colonels and major generals and lieutenant generals? if they acted against my directives and instructions, no.
Q Well now, just let us see what happened in your own ministry. You know that--do you know that Colonel Welde made a personal investigation of this matter at the camp? Did you know that? I do not know; I know only that investigations did take place. was a meeting in Berlin about this matter? Just let me tell you who were there before you apply your mind to it so you will know: Your ministry was represented by Colonel Walde, because Lieutenant General Grosch had another meeting, so he ordered his deputy to attend; the defendant Keitel's organization was represented by Colonel von Reurmont; the Gestapo was represented by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller; the Kripo was represented by Gruppenfuehrer Neve.
Now, these officers were of course not on the policy level, but they were high executive officers who had to deal with the actual facts that were carried out, were they not?
A They were not executive officers. So far as executive was concerned, it is not established for an officer. For the first question whether I know about this meeting, I would say no. Colone Walde I do not even know personally. were never told about this meeting at any time?
Q I just want you to look at--let him have Welder's statement-- I want you to look at the statement of one of the officers of your own ministry on this point. This is a statement made by Oberst Ernst Welder, and--I am sorry I haven't another German copy, but I will get one in due course--and in my copy, witness, it is at the foot of page two, the beginning of the paragraph which I want you to look at is:
"As recaptured prisoners were not to be taken back to their camp, according to an order issued several weeks previously"--can you find it?
AAnd whore should I find that? second page, and I want to ask you about the--the middle of that paragraph. I don't know if you see a name--it stands out in my copy--Major Dr. Huehnemoerder; do you see that? Huehmemoerder appears; "On this Monday"--have you got it?
Q Thank you. "On this Monday a conference took place at the Security Headquarters (Reichssicherungshauptamt) at Berlin, Albrechtsstrasse.
As far as I remember this conference had been called by the Director of Prisoners of War, OKW, Kriegsgefangenen Wesen, and I attended as representative of 'Luftwaffe Inspection 17', since General Grosch was unable to attend in person, for reasons which I cannot remember; the Director of Prisoners of War, as far as I know, was represented by Oberst von Reurmont, while the Security Office was represented by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller and Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, the Chief of the Kriminalpolizei at that time. I find it impossible to give a verbatim account of the conversation or to state what was said by every single person. But I remember this much: that we were informed about a conference which had take: place the previous day, that is Sunday, at the Fuehrer's headquarter in connection with mass escape from Sagan, in the course of which heated discussions had taken place between the participants. In this connection the names of Himmler, Goering and Keitel were mentioned. Whether Ribbentrop's name was also mentioned I do not remember. The Fuehrer was not mentioned. At this conference appropriate measures were said to have been discussed, or taken, to check any such mass escapes in future. The nature of these measure; was not disclosed. Later and more or less in conclusion Gruppenfuehrer Mueller declared that requisite orders had already been given and put into effect the previous morning. Regarding the search for escaped prisoners (Grossfahndung) he could or would not make any statement; he merely declared that according to reports so far received shootings had taken place at some points for attempted escapes. I think he said the number was ten or fifteen.
"After these last remarks by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, which unmistakeably caused a shattering effect, it became clear to me the a decision had been made by the highest authority, and that therefore any intervention by subordinate departments was impossible and pointless.
executives, that the shooting had already begun. Are you telling this Tribunal that this matter was made clear to these executives, including one of your own officers, and was never told to you? Are you still saying that?
A. I am still saying that. I did not receive anything, any news of this meeting, and this officer is just assuming certain names; he is not making any assertion. And for the third part, I would like to mention the beginning of the statement, which begins as follows:
"In this matter of the mass escape of British officers from prisoner-ofwar camps No. 3, at Sagan on the 24th of 25th of March, 1944, I make the following statement.
"'I have to point out that in view of the absence of any documents, I am forces to reconstruct events, which happened almost a year and nine months ago completely from memory. I therefore ask that this fact and the possibility thus arising of my making a mistake be taken into consideration, and that due allowances be made."
Q. That is a fair point and the answer to it is that I will show you what this officer reported at the time to his general.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Give the witness General Frosch's statement.
(A paper was handed to the witness.)
We are getting reasonably high up. This officer, General Grosch, signs it as a Lieutenant General. Now, would you like, if you can, to help me again -- you were most helpful last time -- to try to find the place? This is a statement by Lieutenant General Grosch.
A. I request to have permission to read this document first, to see whether similar limitations apply here also.
Q. Will you read the first sentence? I don't want to take up time to read an account of the general matter. It says:
"During my interrogation on the 7th of December 1945 I was told to write down all I knew about the Sagan case"; and then he wrote it down. But I would like you to look at No. 1, the first page. Do you see at the foot of the page an account of the pyramid in your ministry of administration?
Do you see that at the foot of page 1?
(There was no response from the witness.)
Q. Do you see at the foot of page 1 the pyramid?
A. I am not that far along; I beg your pardon.
Q. It comes about the fourth paragraph.
A. I can see it, but I wanted to read the other first. Yes, I arrived at that point.
Q. Then, if you will look about four small paragraphs on, it begins:
"A few days after the day of the escape -- I cannot remember the date any more -- Oberst Walde informed me that the OKW had called a conference in Berlin."
Do you see that?
THE PRESIDENT: What page on the English version?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is page 4. I am sorry; it is my fault. I turned over two pages.
THE PRESIDENT: I have it on page 4.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE. Yes. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE:
Q. I don't mind you running through it quickly, but you may take it that the first two pages are what I said were there, the pyramid of your ministry.
A. Yes, I find it. The paragraph, please?
Q. "A few days after the escape" -- Do you find that? It is Part C the fourth paragraph, the Sagan case.
A. Yes, I find the place.
Q. Thank you.
"A few days after the day of the escape -- I cannot remember the date any more -- Oberst Walde informed me that the OKW had called a conference in Berlin -- I believe on the premises of a high SS and police authority, and that the inspectorate was to send representatives. I should have liked to have gone myself but had to attend another conferences in Berlin, and asked Walde to attend as repres-entative.
After his return Oberst Walde informed me that the spokesman of the OKW had informed than that there was a decision by the Fuehrer to the effect that, on recapture, the escaped British airmen were not to be handed back to the Luftwaffe, but were to be shot". next paragraph:
"It is, however, certain that the danger of their being shot was then clearly recognizable. I asked Oberst Walde whether such a far-reaching decision would, he notified in writing to the Supremem Command of the Luftwaffe or the Reichsluftfahrministerium or whether he had been given anything in writing. Oberst Walde gave we to understand that the Assembly were told that they would receive nothing in writing, nor was there to be any correspondence on the subject. The circle of those in the know was to be kept as small as possible. I asked Oberst Walde whether the spokesman of the OKW had said anything to the effect that the Reichsmarshal or the Oberkommando Luftwaffe had been informed about the matter. Oberst Walde assured me that the OKW spokesman had told them that the Reichsmarshal was informed".
I Won't ask you about that for the moment. I want you to look at what your general did. It says:
"Up to the time of Oberst Walde's report I had not received even so much as a hint from anywhere that escaped prisoners of war should he treated in any other way than according to the previsions of the Geneva Convention.
"The some afternoon I rang up my superior officer, the Director of Air Defense, to ask time for an interview with General der Flieger Foerster to be alloted to me. This took place tire next morning, the 28th.
"When I came to report I found General Foerster together with his Chief of Staff, I asked General Foerster for permission to speak to him alone and put the facts before him. In conclusion, I expressed the opinion that if the British airmen were to be shot, (a) there would he a breach of the Geneva Conventions, (b) reprisal measures endangering the lives of German airmen held by the British as prisoners of war would have to be expected.
I asked General Foerster to bring the matter to the notice of the Reichsmarschall even at this very late stage, and to stress those two points.
"General Foerster was immediately prepared to do this. When it came to the choice of the way in which the matter could be brought to the attention of the Reichsmarschall, it was decided to report to the Under-Secretary of State, Generalfeldmarschall Milch.
"In my presence General Foerster rang up the office of the Under-Secretary of State and obtained the interview at once. General Foerster left the room and while doing so he instructed me to wait for his return in his study. After some time, General Foerster came back and told me that he had reported the matter to the Under-Secretary of State and that Feldmarschall Milch had made the necessary notes".
Look at the last paragraph:
"I gave Oberst Walde the order, despite the ban on OKW, to incorporate a detailed written statement about the conference in our records. So far as I know, this was done."
DR. STAHMER (interposing): Attorney Stahmer on behalf of the defendant Goering. are in Nurnberg and who, in my opinion, could be brought as witness in person because of the importance of this matter, not only for Goering but for other defendants.
I object to this procedure under the assumption that the same rules apply for cross-examination as for testimony, By that I mean that we are not to be satisfied with an affidavit and rest on an affidavit, if the possibility is at hand that the Prosecution, without difficulty, can summon the witness in order to be have him testify before the Tribunal, so that the Defense may be in a position to cross examine these witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, what you have said is entirely inaccurate. The rules with reference to cross examination are not the same as rules with reference to examination in chief, and what is being done at the present moment is that the Defendant Goering is being cross examined to his credit, He has said that he knew nothing about this matter, and he has been cross examined to prove that he has lied when he said that.
DR. STAHMER: Mr . President. according to my opinion it must be taken in such a matter that the witness will be brought here in person. It does not change The fact that, according to our opinion, a reference to an affidavit is a less desirable means that personal testimony of a witness, at which occasion the Defense would be empowered to bring proof from their side.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, as I have already printed out to you, you are quite in error in thinking that the rules for cross examination are the same as examination in Chief. The witness at the present moment is being cross examined as to credit; that is to say, to prove whether or not he is telling the truth. apply to call him if you want to do so. That is an entirely different matter.
DR. STAHMER: Yes. I quite understand, Mr. President; but I am interested in having the possibility of calling in the people who are mentioned in this affidavit -- if possible, to have them called in.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you can apply to do that. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: which was not only known in the OKW, not only known in the Gestapo and the Kripo, but was known to your own director of operations, General Forrester who told General Grosch that he had informed Field Marshal Milch, I am suggesting to you, that it is absolutely impossible and untrue that in these circumstances you know nothing about it.
German interprtation regarding the first objection by Dr. Stahmer, the following came through:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: The Tribunal doesn't want you to discuss legal objections.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please answer the question that is put to you? You have already been told that you must answer a question directly and make any explanation afterwards, and shorten it. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: from the officers of your own ministry, that you know nothing about this? a short clarification. We determined a date. You said it was the 27th. But in this statement by Grosch this date is not established. It says, "A few days after the escape." I do not recall the date Oberst Welder reported to me.
Point 2: It says here that General Forrester, who was not chief of my operational branch but chief of another branch of the ministry, mentioned this matter to Milch, without referring to the date. General Fieldmarshal Milch was here as a witness, and whether he gave me this report, and at what time, and whether to that he know nothing about it, that Forrester had never spoken to him. It was asked by my friend, Mr. Roberts. "Didn't General Forrester speak to you about it?" knew nothing about it, when you did, and are leaving the responsibility on the shoulders of your junior officers.
A. No, I do not wish to push responsibility to the shoulders of my subordinates, and I am establishing -- and this applies to me -- that Fieldmarshal Milch did not say that he reported this matter.
to me; and, secondly, that the date when Foerster told Milch about this is not established. It is entirely possible that the exact date when there matters took place, I have been told by one of my other officers, is decisive, and I maintain that I was not present when the Fuehrer gave his decree about this and when I heard about it I contradicted it in the strongest way. But it was, as I was told too late. A few were shot later, but it was not known at the time and the particulars as to time I did not have, but mostof them had been shot already.
Point 3: Those who had escaped, who were captured in the direct vicinity of this camp, were recaptured by our men and returned to the camp and were not transported off. Those prisoners who were apprehended by the police, and befo this decree of the Fuehrer was issued, were returned to the camp, were not transported off, and were not shot.
Q. You know that, according to Welend, who is going to give evidence, the selection of the officers to be shot -- a list as regards the selection of officers to be shot -- a list had been prepared by the camp authorities at th request of Department 5, that is, of the RSHA -- KRIPO Department, in which those officers were regarded as disturbing elements, plotters, and escape leaders, having been specifically mentioned. The names were selected either by the commandant or by one of these officers. Thereupon, the shooting of the officers mentioned by name was accordingly ordered by Department 4 of the RSHA and corresponding instructions sent to the Staatspolizei.
Are you telling the Tribunal you didn't know that your own officers were selecting the men to be shot on the ground that they were polotters and escape leaders? In any other service in the world, attempt to escape is regarded as a duty of on officer, isn't it, when he is a prisoner of war? Isn't that so?
A. That is correct, and I have emphasized that. To the first question, I would like to establish very definitely that we are concerned with the utterance of a man who will be testifying as a witness. Whether he actually wanted a list and saw a list, his utterance is illogical. There was no selection of shootings. Those were shot who were apprehended by the police, without exception, and thos who had not been returned to the camp. There was no selection according to those who were a disturning factor, but those who were returned to the camp were not shot.