against the ideology of Rosenberg's; but they are the proof for the fact that the ideas of race, people, nation, blood, and soil, are recognized by expert scientists on biology. And Hellpach, in the introduction of world pschology, makes that terribly important statement-and Hellpach is a very famous name in the whole German literature--that every theses will lead to a super-theses and a degenerati.
Gentlemen, I have only; one brief remark to make on the subject. In the last number of the "Die Neus Zeitung" it states that in the French paper "Constitution --and there was a basic argument, an important argument, in this present time; namely, that "we are here concerned with the rights of mankind", and that "one has not investigated which inner attitude men had who were members of the resistance movements"; and one had stated certain theses regarding the liberty and the crisis in human right and certain contradictions were, pointed out. And, gentleme something was stated which was as follows:
"There is a contradiction between the announcement of liberty and the increasing technique of slavery; and we believe in that there is a contradiction between the growing of material richness and the spiritual consumption; and, third there is a contradiction in every shape of progress, since every completion and perfection appears after certain sensations of diffidence have also appeared. Fourthly, there is a contradiction between a humane ideal of the Eighteenth Century and the discoveries of science of man, regarding biology, the deep psychology which represent his ties to the laws of nature. Fifthly, there is a contradiction between the situation created by superficial influence, as paper, pree, radio, and all means of propaganda, which would have lead to an influencing of the masses on one side, and the disappearance of the thinking and highly educated elite." discussed in recent days, and that is why I am asking you, gentlemen, that such questions should be discussed in this trial, since they are decisive for the political and spiritual attitude for our people. points of views, and whether they have deteriorated; that is important and biological development which, of course, includes a certain amount of guilt.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you finished, Dr Thoma? Have you finished what you want to say?
DR. THOMA: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, of course, has not made its decision yet and it will consider your arguments. But I am bound to point out to you that there is no charge in the indictment or made in this case against the Defendant Rosenberg either that he invented his philosophy or that he held certain philosophical ideas The charge against him is that he made a certain use of his philosophical ideas. That is all I have to say. The only other matter which I want to mention to you is an application you made for calling Rosenberg, not first, but at some other point in the course of his case. As to that, if the Tribunal should come to the conclusion that these other philosophical works are not matters which ought to be considered, is it not really unnecessary to put off the calling of the defendant Rosenberg to some later stage? Would it not be in the interests of extradition that he should be called first?
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, two points I would like to mention on that. I wasunder the impression that any evidence must begin with the calling of the defendant. I assumed that no documents could possibly be read previously, and that is why I made that application that I might first of all produce some introductory documents so that the examination of the defendant could then take place smoothly. The documentswill probably produce speedy evidence. quick introductory to the Eastern question and particularly to the army question, also could be expedited if he would be heard before Rosenberg. That is how I worked it out, so that I would first of all like to read the most important documents--not the ideological ones but those that refer to the administration of the East, and then I would like to call Riecke, and then the defendant Rosenberg.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already indicated that, in its opinion, in every ordinary case, it tends to expedition if the defendant is called first, and, of course, any documents which are material can he put to the defendant in the course of his evidence for any explanation that he may have to give upon them.
DR. THOMA: I believe, High Tribunal, that if I could make quite brief remarks in connection with the documents, it would be even more expeditious than if Rosenberg were to make lengthy statements on these documents of his. That is why I thought I would introduce some of the documents, at any rate, at the beginning--only to save time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in order that you should be prepared and able to go on on Monday morning, The Tribunal, having considered this matter, rules that Rosenberg should be called first. That is the ruling of the Tribunal. to the documents that are objected to.
I said Monday morning. I beg your pardon. I meant at the end of the defendant Kaltenbrunner's case.
DR. THOMA: High Tribunal, just one brief argument with reference to the question of the ideology of Rosenberg. I am asking the Tribunal to read the statement by M. Menthon, who states that that ideology was criminal since it was interconnected with his activity, not only as the editor of the Voelkisher Reobachter, but he is referring to the mythology that he had as bringing about the pyschological preparation of the German nation.
THE PRESIDENT: I said that it was not a question of what was the origin of his philosophy or the mere holding of his philosophical idears, but the use to which he put these philosophical idears that is charged against him.
MR. DODD: If Your Honor please, I want to make it clear that we do object to the works of Hellpach.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely.
MR.DODD: Dr. Dix had asked me that his documents be heard today.
THE PRESIDENT: I think it is too late now, but we will consider them shortly if Dr. Dix wishes it. We will consider them very soon.
DR. DIX (Counsel for Defendant Schacht): We have discussed it , Your Honor, first of all with Sir David and then I have discussed it with Mr. Dodd, and Mr. Albrecht, and those gentlemen have decided that they should be brought before the Court, but translations have not yet been made, and a decision would have to be made soon so that the necessary work could be carried out. I would be grateful if on Monday we could come to that.
THE PRESIDENT: We will try to do it on Monday.
(Thereupon the Tribunal adjourned at 1320 hours, to reconvene at 1000 hour, 15 April 1946.)
THE MARSHALL: May it please the Tribunal: The report is made that the Defendant Ribbentrop is absent from this session of the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: I will deal first of all with the documents of the Defendant Rosenberg. volume II, should be denied, up to and including the book by Hellpach--that is to say, Exhibits 1 to 6; and also Exhibits 7E and Exhibit 8. Exhibits 7A, 7B, 7C, and 7D. I should have said of Exhibit 7 and 7A to 7D. But it rules that those Exhibits, 7 to 7D, are not to be read at the present stage but may be quoted by Counsel in his final speech.
Thirdly, the Tribunal allows Books 2 and 3; and called first and any documents which have been allowed may be put to him in the course of his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Kauffmann.
DR. KAUFFMANN (counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner): With the permission of the Tribunal, I now call the witness Rudolf Hoess.
RUDOLF HOESS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Stand up. Will you state your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.) BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q Witness, your statements will have considerable significance. You are perhaps the only man who knows a situation which so far is unknown and can clarify it, and who can state which circle of persons gave the orders for the destruction of European Jewry, and can also state how these orders were carried out and to what degree that carrying out was kept a secret.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, will you kindly put questions to the witness.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: Is that true? to their death in that camp. Is that correct? the figures of the number of those victims because you were forbidden to make them?
the organization and the collecting of these people?
in Auschwitz a sum total of more than two million Jews had been destroyed?
Q Men, women and children?
Q You were a participant in the World War?
Q And then in 1922, you entered the Party?
Q Are you a member of the SS or were you?
because you participated in a so-called murder, political murder?
Dachau?
Q What task did you receive?
Q And how long did you stay there?
Q And from 1938, what job did you have then and where were you?
where, to begin with, I was adjutant of the commandant and later on I became the head of the protective custody camp.
Q During what period were you commandant at Auschwitz? of December 1943. when it was most strongly filled? 140,000 internees at Auschwitz, women and men. Himmler? Please, will you briefly state the content of that conference?
A Yes. In the summer of 1941, I had the order to see the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in Berlin personally. He told me, in its approximate sense -- I can't repeat it verbally -- "The Fuehrer has ordered the final solution of the Jewish question. We, the SS, must carry out that order. If, now, at this moment this is not being carried out, then Jewish people will later on destroy the German people." "Auschwitz, "he said, "had been chosen because from the point of view of railway connections, it was most favorably situated and also because the extensive sitewas most suited for the purpose of guarding." planned action was to be treated as a "secret Reich Hatter"?
A Yes. He pointed that out particularly. He told me that I would not be allowed to talk to my direct superior Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks about the matter. "This conference," he said, "was one between the two of us only," and that I would, have to observe the strictest secrecy before everybody. mentioned?
Camps at that time and he was a direct subordinate of the Reichs-
fuehrer.
Q Does the expression "Secret Reich Matter" mean that no one can make the slighest hints towards referring to that without endangering his own life,
A Yes, "Secret Reich Matter" means that everyone -- that he was not allowed to speak about these matters to anybody and that he himself was responsible with his head that nothing would leak out about these matters to anybody else.
Q Did you ever break that promise towards any third persons?
Q Why do you mention that date? Did you tell third persons after that date? Silesia, made remarks about the events in my camp to my wife. Later, she asked me whether this was the truth and I admitted that to my wife. That was my only broach of the promise I had given to the Reichsfuehrer. I have never talked about it to anyone else.
Q When did you meet Eichmann? I had received that order from the Reichsfuehrer. He came to Auschwitz, that is, to discuss with me the carrying out of the order I had received. As the Reichsfuehrer had told me during our discussion, Eichmann had been given the task by him to discuss the carrying out of the order with me and I was told that he, Eichmann, would give me any further instructions that were necessary. situation, the position, or that Auschwitz was in a completely isolated position and that if there were any measures taken to insure the carrying out of the task which had been given to you, that all these measures could be kept as secret as possible.
A That was the case in Auschwitz. The camp as such was about throe kilometers from the town, about 20,000 morgans of its surrounding country had been cleared of all inhabitants and the entire area could only be entered by SS men or civilian employees who had special passes.
The actual compound called "Birkenau," and later on the destruction camp which was constructed later, was yet another two kilometers from the camp at Auschwitz. The camp installations, that is to say, the provisional installations which were used to start with,were in the woods and could not be seen, not even from a far distance. In addition to that, the whole area had been declared a prohibited area and even members of the SS who did not have a special pass could not enter it. In that manner, and as far as the human mind could judge, no one was in a position to enter that area except authorized persons.
Q And then the railway transports arrived. During what period did they arrive and how many people, roughly, were on each one of those transports? been carried out in various countries, so that a continuous flow of incoming transports cannot be talked about. There were always intervals of four to six weeks. During those four to six weeks, there were two to three trains every day, containing about two thousand persons each.
These trains were first of all shunted to a siding at Birkenau and the locomotive which had been pulling the train was returned. The guards who had accompanied the transport had to leave the area at once and the detainees, the persons who had been brought in, were taken over by guards belonging to the camp. ability to work and the men capable of work at once marched to Auschwitz or respectively to the camp at Birkenau and those incapable of work were first of all taken to the newly constructed crematorium. you told me that about sixty men had had orders to receive those transports, and that those sixty persons too had been sworn to secrecy within the limits of the secrecy which we discussed before. Do you still maintain that today? take the men and women who were not capable of work to these special compounds and later on to this crematorium. This special troop, consisting of about ten duputy leaders, as well as doctors and medical personnel, had repeatedly been told both in writing and verbally that they to to keep strictest secrecy regarding all these matters. discover definite clues regarding the fact that those incoming transports would be destroyed or was that possibility so small because there in Auschwitz an unusually large number of incoming transports, materials and so on end so forth? for that purpose could not gain any definite impression because to begin with not only transports arrived who were destined to be destroyed but other transports arrived currently containing now detainees who were used in the camp , Furthermore, transports were leaving the camp which contained a sufficiently large number of workers who were exchanged and the trains, the carriages themselves were closed, that is to say, the freight cars had their doors closed so that anyone standing outside could not form an impression regarding the number of people transported.
In addition to that one hundred trucks of materials, rations, and other such things were daily rolled into the camp or left the workshops in the camp, in which war material was being made. have to dispose of everything they had, their clothes; did they have to undress completely; aid they have to surrender their valuables, is that true?
Q And then they immediately went to their death? waiting for them?
A The majority of them did not. Measures had been taken so that they were left in doubt, so that suspicion would not arise that they were going into their death. For instance, all doors and all walls bore inscriptions which pointed out that this was the delousing plant or shower room. This had been done in several languages or was translated to the detainees by other detainees who had come in with earlier transports and who were being used as auxiliary crews during the whole action. fifteen minutes you told me the other day, is that correct? final death there was a condition of semi-consciousness or unconsciousness, is that true?
A Yes. As I have seen from my own observation or as has been told me by medical officers, according to the temperature in the rooms and according to the number of people present in those rooms, the length of time after which unconsciousness or death arrived was very different. Loss of consciousness took place after a few seconds or minutes.
children, sympathize with the detainees? those actions in spite of all the doubts? and decisive argument which always arose, which removed the doubts, was the strict order and the reason given to me by the Reichsfuehrer Himmler.
*---* did he convince himself of the carrying out of the order of destruction?
A Yes. He visited the camp in 1942 and he watched one processing from beginning to end.
Q Does the some apply to Eichmann?
Q Has the defendant Kalbrunner ever visited the camp?
Q Did you ever discuss this very task with Kaltenbrunner?
A No, never. I only met Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner on one single occasion.
Q When was that?
Q What position did you hold in 1944? Chief Department in Berlin. My office was the previous Inspectorate of Concentration Camps at Oranienburg.
Q And what was the subject of that conference which you have just mentioned? without a name and their use in armament industry. Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner was to make a decision in the matter. For that reason I took the report from a commandant at Mauthausen to him but he did not make a decision but told me he would do so later. in which district Mauthausen is situated? Is that Upper Silesia or is it the Government General?
Q Auschwitz, I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. I should have said Auschwitz.
AAuschwitz is situated in the former state of Poland. Later, after 1939, it was allocated to the province of Upper Silesia. tion camps was exclusively handled by the Administrative and Economic Central Department in Berlin?
Q And is this a department which is separate from the R.S.H.A.? the chiefs in the department in the Inspectorate in the Economic and Administrative Central Department? say for instance treatment and methods, were particularly well-known to you? the treatment of detainees and whether certain specific methods were known to you according to which detainees were to be tortured cruelly? Please divide your statement according to periods, up to 1939 and after 1939.
regarding feeding and accommodations and treatment of detainees, was the same as in any other prison or penitentiary in the Reich. The detainees were treated strongly, yes, but methodical beatings or ill treatments were out of the question. The Reich Fuehrer has given repeated orders that every SS man who would ill treat a detainee would be punished; and quite often SS men who did ill treat detainees were punished. Feeding and accommodations at that time were merely adapted to that of other detainees under legal administration. The accommodations in the camps during those years were still normal because at that time there weren't these mass influxes which occurred during the war and after the outbreak of the war. arrived, and, later on, when detainees arrived from the occupied territories who were members of the resistance movements, the existing buildings and the extensions of the camps could no longer keep up with the number of detainees who arrived. During the first years of the war this could still be overcome by improvising measures; but, later, due to the exigencies of the war, this was no longer possible since there were practically no building materials. And, furthermore, rations were repeatedly and very severely curtailed by the economic administration of the counties. This led to a situation where detainees in the camps were no longer capable of surviving the arising plagues and epidemics. bad condition, why so many thousands of them were sick and emaciated in the camps and were found in that condition, was that the Reich Fuehrer on every occasion, again and again, stated his aim, which he stated through the Chief of the Economic and Administrative Department Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, who communicated it to the camp commandants and administrative offices during the so-called commandant's meetings. This aim was that every detainee would have to be employed in the armament industry as long as his strength would last. Every commandant was told to make every effort that this would be made possible.
It wasn't that one was trying to have as many dead as possible or to destroy as many people as possible; the Reich Fuehrer was anxious that, if possible, every hand and every man should be used in the armament industry, war lasted, the greater would be the number of the ill treated and tortured inmates. Didn't you during the time you inspected the concentration camps ever learn through complaints or such things of these matters, or do you consider that the conditions which have been described are mor or less outrageous and excesses? camps which were liberated were the stories which were spread amongst the people, which referred to these detainees that were liberated by the occupying armies. Those weren't due to methods; they were excesses on the part of certain leaders who ill treated detainees.
Q Do you mean you never took cognizance of these matters? another, then the perpetrator was, of course, immediately relieved of his post or transferred somewhere else. So that, even if he wasn't punished; if there wasn't enough evidence to punish him, I mean, even then he was transferred elsewhere and away from the detainees. conditions of which we know, and which were found by the arriving allied troops, and which had been photographed and filmed? by the fact that through a destruction of railways and through bombing of the industrial works, it was no longer possible to carry an orderly administration and supplying of these masses of men. I'm speaking of Auschwitz with 140,000 detainees. It was no longer guaranteed, even if improvised measures were introduced by the commandants and even if the commandants tried everything to improve it; it was no longer possible. The number of sick had gone beyond any limits. There were next to no medical supplies; plagues were everywhere.
Detainees who were still capable of work were used everywhere and again and again and, by order of the Reich Fuehrer, even people who were partly sick had to still be used some way in industry where they could still do some work. So that in this manner, too, every space in the concentration camp which could possibly be used was filled with sick or dying detainees.
Q I'm now asking you to look at the map which is mounted behind you. The red dots represent concentration camps. I will first ask you how many concentration camps in their proper sense existed at the end of the war? camps. All the other camps which are marked here on the map mean socalled labor camps attached to the armament industry which was situated there. The thirteen existing concentration camps which I have mentioned were the connecting point and the central point of some district or other, such as, for instance, the camp at Dachau in Bavaria or the camp of Mauthausen in Austria; and all the labor camps in that same district came under the concentration camps. That camp had to supply these outside camps; that is to say, they had to supply to them workers and they had to exchange the sick inmates and to supply clothing, and the guards were also supplied by the concentration camp in question. had become a matter of the armament industry and, accordingly, detainees were to be fed in accordance with the wartime ration scales.
Q You may sit down. What do you know about so-called medical experiments on living detainees? For instance, in Auschwitz there were experiments with sterilization carried out by Professor Klaubert and Dr. Schumann. Furthermore, experiments were being carried out on twins by SS medical officer Dr. Mengelau.
Q Do you know the medical officer Dr. Rascher?
A I knew him in Dachau. He was a medical officer of the air force, and he was carrying out experiments on detainees who had been sentenced to death, experiments concerned with the resistance of the human body in high pressure chambers and its resistance to cold. were being carried out were known in the camp and among the larger circles of people? called secret Reich matters; but it was certainly not possible to prevent the experiments, which were being carried out in a large camp and which must have been seen by the inmates, from becoming known in some way or other. Just how far the outside world heard about these experiments is unknown to me.