Q He was a collaborator of yours?
A No, he never worked at the Ministry of Finance; no, never, Neuhausen never was in the Ministry of Economics.
Q Was he a collaborator of Goering? which the Yugoslavian Government was plundered to such an extent could not have been introduced without you and without your bankers and being planned by yourselves? was carried out and by which the Serbian National Bank was founded, but it is a matter of record, of course, that the Reichsbank participated in such transaction.
Q I would like to put to you another two questions: German Aggressor being used up to the limit of all Economic Powers of the occupied territories and by means of various economic measures; such as devaluation of currency, a forceful continued economic plunder of the occupied territories, do you agree that this was the policy of Germany in the occupied territories of the East? U.S.S.R., No. U-119; it is two documents which contains the notes of the Reich Commissar for the determination of the prices of the 22nd of April, 1943. At this meeting participated experts for the prices in all the occupied territories. I should like to read into the record a few excerpts from this document:
On page 2 it says: them a million and a half were war prisoners, and four million were just citizens, one million two hundred thousand from the East and one million from the former Polish territory and two hundred thousand from Czechoslovakia, sixty-five thousand Croatians and sixty thousand Serbs and so forth.
be made at the cost of the country who is submitting the materials, that is to say, from the cost of clearing. main interest did not lie in the welfare of the population but in using to the utmost the economic powers of the country.
On page 16 there is also an excerpt there. In the occupied territories of the Eastern territories the prices should be much lower than the German prices which has already given great privilege to the Bank of the Reich.
On page 7 it states about the clearing in Germany to the sum of 39-9/10 million marks, and the clearing cost is minus two million. In the Ukraine minus eight and a half million, in Serbia minus 219 million, Croatia minus 85 million, Slovakia minus 301 million, and finally on page 22of the document it states: level as possible. Already now we have drawn various privileges for the covering of Reich debts, and the salaries and wages are only one-third of what they are in Germany. perpetrated on such a gigantic scale could not have been perpetrated without your active participation as Minister of Economics and President of the Reichsbank and General Plenipotentiary for Economics? Plenipotentiary for Economy. But may I state my position to this document? First, there is the figure of the number of the workers which have been brought from occupied territories into Germany. I have emphasized myself, and it has been approved and confirmed by other statements I was principally against it. I was principally opposed to it, that from occupied territories foreign manpower should be brought in to such a large extent that the economic order in these territories would be impaired. I am not even speaking about forced recruitment of labor.
I was always opposed to that, and an expert who name I do not know, has said that the price policy had no importance because the main interest was not interest for the population but the exploitation of local economy. I have to contradict that because that is not my point of view. I do not know who that man was who said that, but it is a matter of course that a territory could not produce well if one does not keep the economy on a good footing there and establish prices at such a level that the people there can exist and social order be maintained. So I have to oppose this point of view also. yesterday in detail that the clearing arrangement was in common usage for Germany, and that at any time I have always recognized and confirmed that these clearing debts are true debts and everything also shall be repeated in the currency in which they were made; also, besides I have to emphasize as a matter of principle again and again that this economy in the occupied territories I was not consulted; I had no power to give a directive there and I only participated in so far as I had the regular channels to the various offices, and that, of course, there was a connection between these offices, but any responsibility for the occupied territories I cannot assume, but for the Reichsbank I have stated, I assume full responsibility.
Q I know you are courageous and you don't want to say you are guilty, but do you remember your testimony which you gave on the 22nd of October, 1945, through interrogation?
A I don't know what you mean by that?
Q You don't remember at this time you were asked on the question of mobilization of foreign workers: Did you know about that? And you stated you never said anything against it, is that true? You said "No"? Why as it you did not say anything personally against it?
A That is not correct. I have protested against it, the recruitment of workers and against the fact so many workers were taken out of occupied territory, that the local economy would no longer be able to produce. That is not correct.
Q I have the last question to put to you now: Do you remember an article which was published in the newspaper "Das Reich", dated the 18th of August, 1940, in connection with your birthday? This article is entitled, "Walter Funk, Pioneer of the Socialist Economic Forces". I should like to read a few excerpts from this article: questions and Plenipotentiary of the Fuehrer for Economics, who worked both for the Party and for the economy of Germany was the one who held the pass for German industry. If in the putsch of 1933 in the official life of Germany the contradictions between the politics and the economy and the industrialists and the politicians had gradually became less and less, it became a part of all the works of the entire Reich. It should really be attributed to the great efforts of Funk who in all his work beginning with 1929 helped and worked as much as he could in that direction.
And in the last 'paragraph of this article: a National Socialist, in every question and in every ideal of the Fuehrer, and what the ideals of the Fuehrer are we all know. As a matter of fact, the whole world knows that they are. personality?
GENERAL RAGINSKY: I have no further questions to put to the witness.
(Dr. Dix came to the lectern.)
THE PRESIDENT: What is it you wish to say, Dr. Dix?
DR. DIX: I have only one question to the witness, which was caused by the cross-examination of Mr. Dodd. I could not put this question any sooner, because it was only given by a question by Mr. Dodd.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on. BY DR. DIX:
Q Mr. Witness, Mr. Dodd has put to you a record of an interrogation, according to which Schacht after leaving the Reichsbank still had a room there, and you have heard the testimony by Schacht here.
He has testified beyond doubt that he did not have any more room at the Reichsbank, that moreover the Reichsregierung put a room in his apartment at his disposal by contributing to the costs and that the Reichsregierung paid a secretary which he took from the Reichsbank but who was now paid by the Reich Government. That was the testimony of Schacht. By your answer given to Mr. Dodd it has not become quite clear whether you have any doubt of the correctness of that statement by Schacht.
A I do not know the conditions of the apartment of Dr. Schacht. I was told at the time that he was still frequently coming into the Reichsbank and that a room was reserved for him. If that information should not have been correct, then it is not my fault. I do not doubt that what Dr. Schacht said is correct. He must know the conditions in his apartment better than I do.
(There was no further questions from Dr. Dix.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, do you wish to re-examine?
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in this final questioning of the Defendant, Dr. Funk we have harder work than usually, and that because today the translation caused serious difficulties. I myself have heard what has been spoken here and I have to admit frankly I have only been able to understand part of it. As far as the Defendant is concerned, it may have been the same, and therefore I should like to reserve the right, Mr. President, after I receive the transcript -- stenographic record -- to make one or two corrections, if any cause for that should be seen in the transcript.
We are contronted with a difficulty also, Mr. President, because the Defendant, Dr. Funk, in the cross-examination not only was submitted a large number of extensive documents. We are used to those surprises. But also the Defendant Funk had to give answers on questions concerning documents which he had not issued, which had nothing to do with his activities -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal saw no sign at all of the Defendant Funk not being able to understand thoroughly every question put to him. And I think that therefore there is no reason for any protest on your behalf and you should go on to put any question you wish to put in reexamination -- let's say, questions that arise out of the cross-examination.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in our earphones, at least -- on this side -we could not understand quite a number of questions. Whether that was particularly the case with those ear-phones or with the entire machinery I don't know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if the Defendant Funk did not understand any questions put to him, he could have said so. He did not say so. He answered all the questions from a logical point of view, perfectly accurately. You can ask him if you like, if he did not understand any of the questions put to him. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Now, Mr. Funk, the Prosecution among other things has put to you that you participated in the exploitation, the plunder of France. In this connection is it correct that the merchandise, the consumers' goods, which had come from France, were in many cases manufactured from raw materials which had come from Germany?
A. Certainly. Of course, we continuously shipped coal, coke, iron and other raw materials to France, so that they could produces especially we shipped those raw materials which the French economy did not have in the country. There was a very close exchange and a very close productive community between the German and French economy in the way of organization.
Q. Dr. Funk, excerpts from an article have been read before, which appeared on the occasion of your birthday. Do you know the author of that article?
A. Yes, Franz Jaezigo.
Q. Did he receive any material from you for that article?
A. No.
Q. Didn't he ask for it?
A. No. I didn't know anything about that article beforehand. I did not order a birthday article for myself.
Q. So you didn't know anything about that article and therefore, if I understand you correctly, there is no guarantee that that which is said in this article is really true.
A. No. But I find that the tendency of the article is very good.
Q. Witness, the American Prosecutor confronted you yesterday with the matter of your negotiations with Rosenberg in the spring of 1941, and the fact that at that time a few months before the march into Russia you had these negotiations with Rosenberg. He apparently wanted to conclude that you had confirmed or admitted or wanted to admit that you had known about the intention of Hitler to wage an aggressive war against Russia. You did not have a chance to say anything on this yesterday. Therefore I should like to give you another opportunity now to state that very clearly and to explain what your belief was at that time concerning the intentions of Hitler in the spring of 1941, when you negotiated with Rosenberg and what you knew about eventual causes for war before that time.
not understand it to mean that I had known anything about an agressive war against Russia, because it had been explained before that I was quite surprised by the task assigned to Rosenberg. But the prosecutor spoke explicitly about preparations for war with Russia.
I was informed by Dr. Lammers that the Fuehrer was expecting a war from Russia because Russia was deploying large numbers of troops along the entire border, because Russia had entered Bessarabia, Bukovina, and Transylvania, and because the negotiations with Molotov brought proof that Russia maintained an agressive policy in the Balkans and the Eastern Baltic, by which Germany felt herself threatened. Therefore, there were preparations on the part of Germany for an eventual conflict with Russia. mentioned, I also said explicitly that the measures concerning currency which were discussed there were approved by me, because we created thereby stable currency conditions in the occupied Eastern territory. I was therefore opposed to the idea, for instance, that the German Reischmark should be introduced there, which the population could not have accepted because they could not even read it.
Q Mr. Witness, the Soviet Russian prosecutor has pointed out again and again that you were not only Reichsbank president and Reichsminister for Economy, but also General Plenipotentiary for Economy. You have corrected that already and pointed out that from the very beginning when you were appointed, your authority as General Plenipotentiary for Economy was practically taken over by Goering, and that, I believe, in December of 1939, your authority as General plenipotentiary for Economy also was formally turned over to Goering.
MR. DODD: I take objection not only to the form this examination is taking, but to its substance. Counsel is in effect testifying himself, and he is testifying about matters that the witness testified to on direct examination, and it seems clear to us that this cannot be helpful at all to the Tribunal as a matter of redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Sauter, do you feel it is really proper for you to got the witness to go over again the evidence which he has already given? The only object of redirect examination is to elucidate any questions which have not been properly answered in cross examination. The witness has already dealt with the topics with which you are now dealing, in the same sense which you are now putting into it.
DR. SAUTER: I have repeated the statements only because I want to put a question to the witness now concerning a document which has been submitted only yesterday, which had not been submitted until then, and on which I could not take any position, therefore, and because this Soviet Russian prosecutor has repeated the assertion here that the defendant rise during the war has been General Plenipotentiary for Economy, although that is not correct.
THE PRESIDENT: I have heard myself the witness say over and over again that he was not the General Plenipotentiary for Economy during the war. He has repeatedly said that.
DR. SAUTER: Of course, sir. But it has been repeated from this side.
Mr. President, yesterday a document was submitted which bears the number E. C. 488., a letter dated the 28th of January, 1939. On the front page it is marked in large letters "Secret".
THE PRESIDENT: What is the question about it?
DR. SAUTER: Here in the original is the heading, which is in capital letters, and it roads, "The General Plenipotentiary for War Economy". That is the heading of the stationery. Then the word "War" is lined out; so that at the end you can only read, "The General Plenipotentiary for Economy". General Plenipotentiary for War Economy must have been changed to a new title, "General Plenipotentiary for Economy".
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see. The copy that we have before us does not have the word "War" in it at all.
DR. SAUTER: I beg your pardon?
THE PRESIDENT: I said the copy which we have before us hasn't got the word "War" in it at all.
DR. SAUTER: On my photostat it can be seen.
THE PRESIDENT: I see it. But what is the question you want to put?
DR. SAUTER: At the time when this letter was written, the General Plenipotentiary was the defendant Funk. I should like to ask to be permitted to put the question to him, how can it be explained that the title of his office--that is, Plenipotentiary for War Economy--was changed. The question would be how it could be explained that the title of his office, "General plenipotentiary for war Economy" had been changed to the new title, "General Plenipotentiary for Economy".
THE WITNESS: The reason is-
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q One moment, Dr. Funk, please.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not ask you to stop putting your question, You can put your question. Go on. What is the question? BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Please Dr. Funk. had been appointed General Plenipotentiary for War Economy, and on the basis of this second Reich defense law, which was the basis for my appointment, I was appointed General Plenipotentiary for Economy, because at that time it was quite clear that the special tasks concerning war economy -- that is to say, armament industry, and so on -- would not be with the Plenipotentiary for Economy, but that he essentially had to coordinate the civilian economy.
DR. SAUTER: In connection with that, Mr. President, Hay I call your attention to another document which was submitted yesterday. That is Number 3562-PS. Here the heading already has the correct title, General Plenipotentiary for Economy. That is no more "General Plenipotentiary for War Economy", and that is also a new document which was only submitted yesterday, Mr. President.
MR DODD: Just to keep the record straight, Mr. President, that document 3562-PS is in evidence, and it was submitted by Lieutenant Meltzer, at the time he presented the case against the individual defendant, Funk.
THE PRESIDENT: Hr. Dodd, am I not right in thinking that the defendant Funk stated from the outset in his examination in chief that he was appointed General Plenipotentiary for Economy?
MR. DODD: Yes, indeed, sir. That is as I thoroughly understand it.
THE PRESIDENT: And you have not challenged that?
MR. DODD: We have not challenged the fact that he said so. But we do chal lenge the fact that he, in fact, was only for economy. We do maintain that he, in fact, had much to do with the war effort as the Plenipotentiary.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But he was not to be named that?
MR. DODD: No. And that document, 488, was not offered, anyway, for that purpose, but rather to show that the defendant was engaged in talking about what prisoners of war would do after an attack.
DR. SAUTER: Yesterday a document was produced about the interrogation of a man by the name of Hans Posse.
It is Document 3894-PS. The witness Hans Poss was State Secretary in the Ministry for Economy, and is as such Deputy Plenipotentiary for Economy. That record has been submitted by the prosecution in order to show that between Funk and Goering, allegedly, there was a struggle for power such as it is expressed here. several other points can also be used as evidence:
"The witness - He says, for instance, 'I should like to ask whether this is your opinion still of State Secretary Hans Posse'". That is Document 3894-PS page 2 of the German translation, at the botton of the page.
He was asked, "How often did you report to Funk in connection with your duties as Deputy Plenipotentiary?"
The witness answered then: "The General plenipotentiary for Economy really never went into action."
THE WITNESS: Yes; that repeats what I said again and again, and which can be confirmed and has been confirmed by everybody who has been heard about that question. That was provision which was merely on paper. BY DR. SAUTER: Funk, had worked.
Dr. Posse says: "Is it correct that the office of the General Plenipotentiary for Economy was installed with the final aim to unite all economic functions concerning, and with a view to, the preparations for war."
Then the witness answers, "The purpose was what I have just said, to coordinate the various economic interests. "It is correct that it was the aim to coordinate all economic questions, but not the purpose to prepare for war. Of course, if war preparation should become necessary, it was the task of the Plenipotentiary for Economy to be concerned with these questions and to act as a coordinator."
THE WITNESS: Mr. Posse was an old, sick man whom I had put on this job. And when I took over the ministry, I received a new State Secretary through Goering who became insane, unfortunately, later.
And then State Secretary Dr. Landfried came to me and Posse, who formally was still in the Ministry for Economy as the State Secretary. I had no job for him, and therefore I gave him that nominal title of Deputy Plenipotentiary for Economy.
Here, of course, he had consistent difficulties. The High Command of the Wehrmacht, from the very beginning, wanted to reduce the General Plenipotentia ry in his authority, which could be seen from the letter which was produced yesterday. And the civilian economy department did not want to follow his directives because they already had been subordinated, and had to follow the Plenipotentiary for the 4-Year Plan. Therefore, as a matter of fact, that unhappy General Plenipotentiary for Economy remained on paper, essentially.
THE PRESIDENT: Would this not be a convenient time to break off now?
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Military Tribunal in the matter of: The
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, have two more questions which I wish to put to the defendant, Dr. Funk. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Dr. Funk, before the recess we stopped at the document 3894-PS, testimony of your State Secretary Posse. I would like to quote one paragraph from page 7 of the German text and I would like to ask you whether you agree with it. The witness posse was asked by the District Attorney whether he, as Representative General Plenipotentiary for Economy, knew of the international relations, especially of the situation of the war, and he replies, on page 7, in the center: "We knew never anything about the international situation and we never heard anything about it, and if the international situation was mentioned in our discussions we could always say nothing more than our personal opinions about it." A few lines further down: "We" -- hat is himself and you, Dr. Funk -- "We always hoped that there would be no war." Do you agree with this opinion of your former State Secretary Posse?
A Yes. I have said repeatedly that until the end I did not believe that there would be a war and the same applies to my colaborators, and everyone who spoke to me at that time will corroborate this. Posse was still less informed about political and military events than I was. Consequently, it is even more true about him than about me.
Q Then I have a final question to put. Mr. Witness, you saw the picture this morning which the prosecution has presented. You were the President of the Reichsbank. Consequently, you are familiar, possibly only superficially, with the conditions in the vaults of the Reichsbank, at least, I assume, in Berlin, even though you may not have known them in Frankfurt where the film was taken; and you also know how, especially during the war, these items were kept which had been deposited with the bank in valises or in packages which were wrapped up or similar containers.
Possibly, Dr. Funk, you can make a statement on the basis of your own knowledge of the conditions regarding this small picture which we have seen. by it. The photography and especially the film are always very dangerous documents because they show many things in a different light than things actually are. I personally have the impression, and I assume the prosecution will probably corroborate this, that all these deposits of valuables as well as all these collections of valuable items came from the Kali mines, into which, at my behest, all gold, currency and other valuables of the Reichsbank had been stowed away when, due to a terrific bombing attack on Berlin, we were unable to continue our work in the Reichsbank building. The Reichsbank building alone was hit -- on February 3, 1945, during this raid -- was hit by twenty-one explosive fragmentation bombs. Only a miracle made it possible for me to come to the surface together with five thousand other people from our deeply located bunkers. At that time gold, currency and all other valuable deposits were brought to a potassium mine in Thurania and from there, it seems to Frankfurt. At least I assume so. In other words, this to a large extent, all these packages contained normal deposits by customers who had brought these locked deposits, which could not be touched by the Reichsbank, had brought them to the Reichsbank for safe keeping. Consequently, this film does not make it possible for me to differentiate which items came from donations or deliveries by the SS and which were genuine deposits. The prosecutor certainly is correct if he claims that no one is going to deposit gold teeth in a bank, but it is entirely possible that certain functionaries of the concentration camps made genuine deposits in the Reichsbank which contained such articles to save for themselves for the future. I think that is possible.
However, in conclusion I must say once more that I personally had no knowledge whatsoever of these things and of the fact that, coming from concentration Camps, jewelry diamonds and pearls and other objects in that extent were delivered to the Reichsbank. I knew nothing about it.
Reichsbank was not authorized to do this kind of business. O f course, one document, the accounting for the Finance Minister, indicates that most likely everything from the concentration camps was first brought to the Reichsbank and then the poor officials of the Reichsbank had to take it apart and send an accounting to the Finance Minister or to the pawn shops and finally had to make an accounting of all these transactions.
Therefore, I must request that a man be heard about these events; first of all, Mr. Puhl, and perhaps another man who dealt with these articles so he can explain how these things actually took place and particularly show that I personally had no knowledge, whatsoever of these events except the facts which I personally have submitted to the Court before.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I am at the end of my interrogation of the accused Funk.
I would like to put the request that I may call the sole witness whom I have at this time, the witness Dr. Heiler.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, may I raise one matter before the witness is excused?
This document 3894-PS that we have quoted from and have the benefit of the whole text.
So far we have both been quoting And may we ask, Mr. President, if we should do anything about getting the witness Puhl here?
We will be glad to bring him here if he
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, have you any request to make with reference to the witness Puhl, who made an affidavit?
DR. SAUTER: Regarding the witness Puhl I wanted to ask you, Mr. President, that he be brought here for cross-examination, the witness Emil Puhl.
I would have made that request anyway.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly, Dr. Sauter. The witness Puhl should be brought here.
He will be brought here as soon as possible.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the defendant can return to the do ck.
FRANZ HEILLER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Dr. Heiler, how old are you? in the Ministry of Economy under Mr. Funk? head of the department for Economy. In this position, I dealt very closely with the Ministry of Economy. reported to him regarding my type of work, and on that occasion I made his acquaintance. When I was put in charge of the Reichsgroup, Trade, there developed a working relation between my organization and the Ministry, especially with the then State Secretary Landfried and the Minister himself. We became very friendly during our working relations. task of the Ministry was the nourishing of the German people, that is, of the civilian population. organization for the sale of merchandise; that is, for the procurement of food, and during a conference with Minister Funk regarding the collaboration between Trade and the Ministry, Mr. Landfried, who was then a State Secretary made the suggestion that Minister Funk call me into his Ministry and make me his representative. Mr. Landfried believed that under the then existing conditions he himself was not strong enough to master this difficult task si the influence of the Ministry upon production had been taken away.
is, Landfried -- was the representative of the Minister, Landfried replied that he could not continue to handle this task alone and that he requested that he be permitted to retire, and he suggested that I take over his position. State Secretary.
Q When was that? my appointment came on 20 November.
Q That is, until the fall of 1943, Dr. Heiler, you were active in only an honorary position?
Q Your department was the detail? of Economy with the rank of a State Secretary? Dr. Funk?
Q Dr. Heiler, during a conference that we had day before yesterday, I discussed with you the question of whether the accused Dr. Funk was a particularly radical type of man or whether, to the contrary, he tried to be moderate and concerned with the interests of other people. What do you have to say to this question? For the judgment of the personality of the accused Funk, it is of a certain importance. human being. His entire character, his entire mannerism, is not fitted for radicalism. He is more an artist, a man who has a very fine artistic feeling and thinking.
To the contrary, he always tried to ameliorate. For this reason people within the party circles took him as too soft, too easy-going, too forgiving. Many times he was accused of being too weak. He made the attempt to keep economics safe from political interference and from unnecessary harshnesses, and due to his respect and his regard for the enterprising endeavors and for the responsibility of the people in the general economy, even during the war he fought against unnecessary intervention within the factories and trade establishments; he protected the business world against coalitions. the war the responsibility for the production was taken away from him. of the trade organization that Funk at various occasions fought for men in the trade world who were in political differences. sul General Hollaender or for Mr. Pietsch the time when he was in danger of grave consequences because he had tried to initiate peace movements; or as is probably known, at the time at which Funk fought for Richard Strauss; I don't think these individual cases are of as great importance as the following: After the catastrophe of November 9, 1938, the course of the Aryanization was also planned at a decreased pace with him, the Minister of the Economy, At that time there were a number of political men had been forced upon the Ministry, especially Mr. Speer. I recall distinctly that at that time particularly Landfried and also Funk were objecting to this radicalization of the Ministry and fought against it. Funk and the Ministry were blamed for doing this, repeatedly. the events of that date with Himmler in which I voiced my complaint. Himmler said at that time among other things, and reproached Funk and me in doing that, he said "Recently you people have been at fault that things have been driven to this point. From a Mr. Schacht nothing could be expected but constant interference and slowing down." And that he fought against the will of the party.