Perhaps I became a little one-sided since this battle for the construction of the Navy took all my time and kept me from taking part in any other matters that had nothing to do with it. formation of a competent officers' corps and well-trained and particularly well-educated crews. Grand Admiral Doenitz has already reported here the result of this training of our officers and men, and I should like to confirm that these German naval men were respected at home and abroad because of their good training and because of the fact that in war they fought in an exemplary manner to the end, in complete unity, because they participated in no atrocities. In the occupied areas where they were stationed, in Norway for instance, they earned the recognition of the population for their decent behavior. Navy in these 15 years, it can be stated that as head of the Navy you are responsible for everything that happened in this connection?
A I am fully responsible for it? October 1928. To whom wer you subordinate as far as construction of the Navy is concerned? You could not act completely independently. the Reich Government, since he was a member of the Reich Government. Second, I had to obey the Commander in Chief of the Wehrmacht in these matters. From 1925 to 1934 the Commander in Chief of the Wehrmacht was Reichspresident General Feldmarschall von Hindenburg, and after his death on the 1st of August 1934, Adolf Hitler.
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, in this connection may I submit Raeder Exhibit No. 3, a short excerpt from the Constitution of the German Reich. It is in Document Book I on page 9. Article 47 reads:
"The Reichspresident has the supreme command of all the armed forces of the Reich."
later, as Raeder Exhibit No. 4, Document Book I, page 11.
I refer to Article 8 of the Defense law, which reads as follows:
"The command lies exclusively in the hands of the lawful superior.
"The Reichspresident is the Commander in Chief of all Armed Forces. Under him, the Reich Minister for Defense has authoritative powers over all the Armed Forces. At the head of the Reich-Army is a General, as Chief of the Army-Command; at the head of the Reich-navy, an Admiral, as Chief of the Naval Command." regime. I refer to them only because this confirms what the witness says. In regard to reconstruction, it is the Reich Defense Minister, and then in the third position is the head of the Ministry. BY DR. SIEMERS: Navy, first, by breaking the Versailles Treaty, second, behind the back of the Reichstag and the Reich Government, and third, with the intention of waging aggressive war. of the Navy was for aggressive or defensive purposes. Please distinguish chronologically. Speak at first only about the period of time under the influence of the Versailles Treaty, that is, from 1928 until the GermanEnglish Fleet Agreement of the 18th of July, 1935.
My question is: In this period of time of the construction of the Navy, was the construction of the Navy for aggressive purposes as the Prosecution asserted? purposes. No doubt there was a certain evasion of the Versailles Treaty. a few, short quotations from a speech, which I made in 1928 in Kiel and Stalsund, the two largest garrisons of my Navy station, before the citizenry. When I took up my duties in Berlin, I handed it to Minister Severing as my program. Minister Severing regarded me with acertain amount of suspicion at that time.
DR. SIEMERS: I believe the High Tribunal will agree, because the statements from the year 1928 show Raeder's attitude more clearly. For that reason I submit this speech as Raeder Exhibit No 6, document book I, page 17.
The speech itself begins on page 17.
MR. President, it would take perhaps five or ten minutes, and I would ask whether it is time to adjourn, or shall we continue?
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for Defendant Sauckel): Mr. President, will you please grant permission for the defendant Sauckel to be absent from the courtroom on the session of the 18th so that he may prepare his defense?
THE PRESIDENT: You want to be absent in order to prepare your defense?
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to suggest that before the witness Puhl is recalled, the witness Toms be called. I believe it will save some of the Tribunal's time. I think, from what I know of the prospective testimony, there may be questions that will arise in the mind of the Tribunal which it would like to put to the witness Puhl after having heard the witness Toms. concerned, that the witness Puhl be in the courtroom when the witness Toms testifies. I think he should have that opportunity.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, do you have any objections?
DR. SAUTER: I have no objection.
MR. DODD: May we call the witness Toms?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, call Toms, and have Puhl somewhere in the courtroom where he can hear. follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me?
A I beg your pardon, but I didn't quite hear you.
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
MR DODD: Mr. President, I am aware that he has been called for cross-examination. However, there are one or two matters, now material, which were not included in the affidavit, and to save time I would like to bring those out before the cross-examination takes place.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY MR. DODD:
Q Mr. Toms, you executed a statement on the 8th day of May, 1946. Is that so?
Q And you signed it?
Q And everything in it was true?
Q And is true now, of course? identify it now. Is that the statement that you signed, Mr Toms?
Q All right. Now, I have one or two questions to ask you about it.
MR. DODD: I wish to offer it, Mr. President, as USA Exhibit 852.
Q (Continuing) You know this gentleman sitting to your left, do you not?
Q That is Mr. Puhl, is it not?
Q Now, did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Puhl about any special deposit which was coming to the Reichsbank and about which you should maintain utmost secrecy? else was present at the time.
A This conversation took place in the summer of 1942. I was called to come up into president Puhl's office, Mr. Frommknecht, the cashier, delivering the message. Mr. Frommknecht took no to Mr. Puhl, and there Mr. Puhl disclosed the fact that a special transaction with the office of the Reichsleader SS was to be undertaken.
Do you want no to explain it in detail? quite confidentially, that not only were articles to be delivered which could be taken over in the ordinary course of business of the Reichsbank quite automatically, but there would, also be the use of jewlry and other articles. experts, he replied that we would have to find a way to utilize these articles. sent to the Chief Cashier's Department -- that is, the Cashier Department of the Reich Government -- which was dealing with all booty of the Army. However, Mr. Puhl thought that this matter should not go through the Chief Reich Cashier's Department, but should be handled by the Reichsbank in some other form, Therefore I suggested that those articles could be dealt with exactly like the delivaries of confiscated Jewish articles which had been dealt with before, which had been sent to the Municipal Pawnbroker's Office in Berlin. President Puhl agreed to this suggestion.
Q When did the first of those shipments arrive?
remember.
Q 1942?
A Does the name "Melmer" mean anything to you?
A The name "Melmer" was the name of the SS man Who, in subsequent tines, brought these valuables to the Reichsbank. Under this clue word all deliveries of the SS were later on, entered on the books of our bank.
Q Did you ever mention the name or the word "Melmer" to puhl, and Aid he ever mention it to you?
A The name "Melmer" has not been mentioned, by President Puhl to me but it has been mentioned by me before President Puhl. I gave it to him, because I had to inform him about the carrying out of this particular business and, most of all, of course, about the business which arose from transferring the payment for these articles. In accordance with the suggestion which came from the office of the Reichsleader SS, that money was transferred to the Reich Ministry of Finance, into an account which had the name "Max Heiliger". Later on, informed. President Puhl briefly about those facts.
receiving in the SS shipments? was getting along. I explained to him that, contrary to the expectation that there would really be very few deliveries, deliveries were growing, and that apart from gold and silver coins there was a great deal of jewelry, rings, wedding rings, even dental gold, gold and silver fragments; in fact, all sorts of gold and silver articles. dental gold and other articles?
A Kay I first of all add one or two things. I drew his attention especially to the fact that on one occasion I had received something like twelve kilograms of jewels and that there was such a considerable amount that I had never seen anything like it before in all my life.
Q What was it?
A It was pearls. They were pearls and pearl necklaces. rims?
A I can't swear to that at the moment, but I have described the general character of these deliveries and, in my opinion, I probably used the word "spectacles", but I wouldn't state it on my oath.
Q Was he ever in the vaults when this material was being processed? inspect gold deposits there and particularly to inform himself about the typo of storage. The deliveries were kept in a special department of one of the main safes, so that on those occasions Mr. Puhl saw the trunks and boxes -he must have seen them -- of these deliveries. Nearby in the corridor of the vault deliveries were being dealt with and I am of the certain opinion that Mr. Puhl, when he walked through the strong rooms, must have seen those matters since they were quite openly lying on the table and everyone who visited the strong room could see them. out, were there not, before it was shipped away for molting and for sale in the pawn shops?
thirty people -- that is every day twenty-five to thirty people Would visit the strong rooms so as to carry out some official business there. The activities in this connection were carried out by no more than four to five officials; that is the sorting out and preparation of this material.
Q And everyone under your supervision were sworn to secrecy? They didn't talk about this business; they were forbidden to do so, were they not? not be talked about, not even with colleagues of one's own department so far as that colleague did not himself work in the same matter.
Q Well, this was a super-secret matter, wasn't it? It wasn't the ordinary secrecy that attended. Wasn't there a special secrecy surrounding these deliveries?
A That is right. It was quite an exceptional affair and it had to be kept especially secret, so that I should like to say that it was kept secret over and above the limits of ordinary secrecy. I had been strictly forbidden to talk to anybody about it and I had said at the time when I said farewell to President Puhl, after the first conversation, that I would inform the loading officials in the department of the cashier, because my superiors must be informed about this business. Directorate? which had beendealt with were only accounted for in an account called "Melmer". That account was sent to the foreign exchange department by the cashier's department and they, in turn, would deal with it further, together with the Directorate of the Reichsbank. thing, did it not? You weren't allowed to handle materials like this without the approval of the bank Directorate? instructions had to be given by the Board of Directors, or they had to pass on these matters, so that I could never act independently or do anything independently.
Generally the instructions were given in writing and they were signed by at least two members of the Board of Directors when they reached the cashier's department; so that this was quite an unusual case, that in this case there were oral instructions.
Q By the way, Mr. Toms, you have seen the film this neon-time? We have shown you a film, haven't we? represents a fair representation of the appearance of some of the shipments that were received by the Reichsbank from the SS? I have seen in it is typical for Melmer deliveries. Perhaps I should limit it in one sense, though, by saying that the quantities as shown in this film didn't represent the same quantity of gold which came with the first deliveries. Only later did these amounts increase so that the quantities which we have seen in this film were delivered. They weren't dealt with at the Reichsbank at the time, or hadn't beendealt with then. They were, of course, in boxes or trunks which were locked. But generally, as a matter of fact, the material which I have seen in that film is typical for a delivery at the Melmer.
Q All right, sir. Now, approximately -- I don't expect a completely accurate answer, but approximately how many shipments did you receive of this stuff from the SS?
than seventy deliveries, possibly seventy-six or seventy-seven. I can't tell you exactly how many but that must be about the right figure.
Q Very well. I have no further questions. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, what is your occupation?
Q Where did you live?
A Berlin, Steglits; and after my home was bombed I lived at Potsdam, No Fahrland. happen to be interrogated-interpreters can catch up with us?
Q By when?
Q Are you a free man?
Q Did you receive that order in writing?
A No. 1 was asked orally yesterday to cone to Frankfurt -- or rather Nurnberg.
Q Where are you living? In Frankfurt at the moment?
Q Mr. Toms, where did you live on the 8th of May? That is a week ago today?
A On the 8th of hay this year?
Q You are Mr. Tons, aren't you?
Q There you were interrogated, weren't you?
A That is quite right. I was interrogated at Frankfurt.
Q -- the affidavit which the prosecutor has just put to you?
Q How did the affidavit cone about? Did you volunteer as a witness or how did this happen?
A I volunteer, yes. I want to point out to you that already a year ago when I was working at Frankfort, I approached American forces and volunteered to snake a statement about the details of that part of the business which was known to me at the Reichsbank.
Q I see. So last year you offered yourself as a witness?
A Yes. I wouldn't say as a witness in this matter, though. I merely placed myself at their disposal as far as the clarifying of Reichsbank business was concerned, for American purposes. Funk? to talk to minister funk. ther President of the Reichsbank Funk had exact knowledge of these affairs, of these matters, or is that also unknown to you?
A I can't say anything about that either because these matters happened on a higher level which I couldn't judge. whatever you call it. This was under the name "Melmer"?
A I want to point out that this wasn't a deposit but that these were deliveries which were delivered under the name "Melmer" and that to some extent this was business which the Reichsbank had to carry out and which was the meditating over of those articles; and they were affairs the Reichsbank would deal with. They, shall we say -- the Reichsbank, was acting for the SS in the exploination of these articles.
Q. Why did this item -- whether we call it a deposit or anything else-why was it given the name 'MELMER'? Did you ask anybody about that, witness?
A. I have already mentioned at the beginning of my examination that this was a particularly secret affair in connection with which the name of the supplier was not to appear. In this case, therefore, there was a specific instruction from the Vice-president, Puhl, which was decisive of the way this affair was dealt with.
Q. In this strong-room, where these things were kept, did only officials of the Reichsbank get in there, or did other persons also have access to it, for instance, customers of the strong-room, of the safes?
A. The Reichsbank didn't have any private customers, that is to say, we didn't have any closed deposits that might have belonged to customers of the Reichsbank -- at least not in those vaults. Deposits from private customers were in another vault, so that a contact between the deposits of the bank and the deposits of the customers wasn't possible.
Q. But officials?
A. Quite a number of them could get there. Of course, Mr. Puhl has said so here.
Q. There is one thing I am not clear about: On one side you have told us that these articles were openly lying about on tables so that everybody could see them and on the other hand you said towards the end of your statement that these things were kept in locked boxes and trunks. Now, what is the situation there? And please be slow.
A. I have stated that these matters were delivered in closed boxes and trunks, and stored in them. On the occasion when they were dealt with, when the individual deliveries were dealt with, the delivery which was about to be dealt with, of course, was opened. The contents had to be counted and weighed, and that, of course, could only be done by spreading the contents out. But once counted, once investigated, then they were locked in new containers.
Q. Did you on your own initiative perhaps talk to Witness Puhl? After all, you were a high official in the bank. And did you say you were against this entire business and had any objections to it. Please think very carefully of the answer to this question, because you are under oath,
A. First of all, I want to answer that I belonged to the group of intermediate officials. And then, of course, as a matter of course or let me put it this way: If an official has worked for thirty years or longer for an authority in which he has discovered during all those years that the directors were without blemish, without blame, then he can't have any objections when in a special case he is instructed to keep secrecy with regard to a business which is something unusual and he wouldn't object to carrying out this order. I have already told you that the conception, "booty," wasn't unknown to us officials in the Reichsbank, because there was the order that captured gold or all booty goods which had been returned by the Armed Forces were to be sent direct to the Cashier of the Reich Government, and we in the Reich Government and we in the bank, of course, thought that any booty of the SS troops would go the way into the Reichsbank, and an official of the Reichsbank can't very well fight against such an order. If the Directors of the Bank give him some instructions, then he will have to carry them cut, and of course he must observe the oath which he swore -- quite. ing us that at the beginning, at any rate, you considered that the matter was a correct one, is that right, at the beginning?
AAt the beginning, yes. In fact, I considered it correct all the way through. brief? and experience then which I have today. As far as that is concerned, I kept my doubts; I couldn't admit them, because the affair wasn't only known to me but the directors of the bank and known to the Chief of the Cashier's Department. The valuables of the strong-room were checked every night by a deputy director of the Cashier's Department. I only had the technical procedure under me, as far as this was concerned, and responsibility for the correctness of this particular action wasn't within my competence.
Q I don't know about responsibility, but, Witness, I asked you, did you ever have any doubts, and when did the moment arrive when you considered the whole affair criminal? Did you consider it criminal?
East, because they participated in the fight for Warsaw and then afterwards they captured this material in houses, and they delivered them to our Bank as booty. You can't say that if in this connection a military department supplies us with booty goods an official who is responsible for dealing with such matters could consider deliveries as being criminal.
Q. When taking over these articles, did you think or did the vice-president Puhl, tell you or at least hint to you that these gold articles might have been taken away from victims in concentration camps?
Q You didn't think of that, did you?
A No, never. On one occasion we had the name, Auschwitz, and once the name Lublin, on a slip of paper which we found. I was going to say, if I didn't say it -- but I am telling you know, that in connection with Lublin we found this remark on some packet of Bank-notes which came in to be dealt with, and were then returned to the Polish Bank for cashing in. Naturally enough, the same parcels being dealt with by the bank came back again. Consequently, here the instruction was that these couldn't be deliveries from a concentration camp, since that had come trough ordinary bank channels. The camp at Auschwitz -- well I can't say anything about that today, whether these were deliveries, whether such slips of paper were contained in those deliveries, but it is possible there were slips attached to some notes so that in the case of some foreign bank-notes they might have originated from concentration camps but there Were certainly instructions according to which prisoners of war or prisoners could exchange currency into some other currency in the camp, so that through legal channels such deliveries could have occured. of what you just told us is that even when in 1943 you saw notes on certain things which said, "Auschwitz" and Lublin," that even then you considered the matter legal, didn't you?
Q Well, then, why do you say in your affidavit -- though it isn't sworn -dated the 8th of May, 1936 -- why did you there picture the story somewhat differently? Perhaps I can read it to you, and you can tell me whether I misunderstand it or the official might have misunderstood you taking it down.
First of all, it is to be assumed you considered it legal. I quote:
"One of the first indications for the origin of these articles arose when it was noticed that a packet of bills, presumably valuable" -
"--that a packet of bills were stamped Lublin."
Q "-- it could be gathered from the fact that some articles bore the stamp "Auschwitz." You are saying, "We all know these places were the sites of concentration camps. In connection with the tenth delivery in November, 1942"-that was earlier, wasn't it -- "gold teeth appeared, and the quantity of gold teeth grew to an unusual extent." you please tell us, Is this meant to be the same as you just said a little earlier or is there a difference in your opinion?
Q Please wait a minute. (Very brief pause.) Go ahead.
A That in my opinion tallies with my statement. WE couldn't assume chat deliveries which came through the concentration camp had to be absolutely illegal, We only ascertained that gradually as those supplies grow, increased. A delivery of notes from concentration camps, even, need not be illegal. It might have been some official deal. And most of all, we don't know the regulations applicable to concentration camps. It is perfectly possible that these people had the right to sell the articles in their possession or in some way raise some money. by anybody.
A May I point out to you that I was not of the opinion that these bank notes necessarily had to come from concentration camps.
I had only said that the word "Lublin" was on some of the packets of bank notes. That might have been a pointer to the concentration camp, but it didn't necessarily mean that these particular notes would have to come from that concentration camp, and the same applies to Auschwitz. The name Auschwitz suddenly appeared. There may have been a certain suspicion, but there wasn't proof as far as we were concerned nor did we suspect that we, on our part, should now have objected to these deliveries of the SS.
Q Mr. Witness, apparently, and because of this conception of it, you didn't use the occasion to talk to Vice President Puhl or the directorate and report to them or to offer any doubts; you didn't have any cause for that? deliveries, and I did so a few months after the first delivery arrived. I told him about the character of these deliveries and that was known to Puhl therefore. If there were any objections to be raised in connection with these deliveries, then they should have come from President Puhl in this connection. He knew what the story was, what the connections were. deliveries didn't seem peculiar to you. You considered that it was booty. And now you thank that you have pointed out to Vice President Puhl what this character was and that be might have considered them peculiarly.
A I didn't say that President Puhl must have noticed anything peculiar. All I said was that, if any objections were to be raised in this connection, then it had to come from President Puhl since he was aware of the character of these deliveries just as much as I was. And, if a suspicion did arise or had to come, then that should have taken place much more with President Puhl than with me.
Q Mr. Witness you told us earlier that special secrecy was ordered In this connection, but at the same time you have mentioned that other affairs, otter matters quite apart from this affair, other businesses, also occurred for which, apparently, special secrecy had also been ordered; is that true?