In spite of this as a total expenditure it is a minimum if you consider that three hundred fifty millions a day went for the pursuits of the war, or if you compare it with the cost of a battleship, which is about the same. These funds, this equipment, and the pay for the necessary personnel is something which every well organized stated ought to raise.
Q Now, this Fuehrer letter doesn't say that the patient has to be doomed to an early death, does it?
A He says that if the situation is most critically judged by the doctor then the mercy deaths can be granted. In the case of incurable diseases, any other questions which might have played a part in this connection are not dealt with in writing in this decree; but appropriate instructions issued by the Fuehrer to Bouhler or to me in order to have them passed on to Bouhler for his carrying out were dealt with in that matter.
Q Well, I don't think you answered my question. Let's put it in another way. The euthanasia program! was not limited to persons who were doomed to die an early death, was it?
A I don't know whether you are applying the words early death to the age of the person or the condition of his illness. It might have been possible -- it was possible that patients were included in the program who under certain circumstances might have been able to live another two or three years; but it was not the case that with reference to the insane patient only the aged person was affected. Of importance were the questionnaire and the stage of his illness which were shown in these details and facts.
Q Dr. Brandt, isn't it true that you can have a person of fifteen years who is suffering from incurable insanity of one sort or another, yet who may live to the ripe old age of seventy-five? Isn't that true?
A It's most improbable. It might under certain circumstances happen occasionally, occasionally; but if someone aged fifteen is insane, it is most improbable that he will live to the age of seventy-five. I am pretty sure that this would be one of the most outstanding exceptions. Generally it wouldn't be the case at all.
The life of insane persons who fall ill at an early age usually comes to an end fairly early, too.
Q Well, what is the average length of time than an insane person spends in an asylum in Germany?
A I am afraid I can't tell you that, what the average figure is. It will depend on the type of disease; but I can't give you an average age, I'm afraid.
Q Now, do you want the Tribunal to believe that the euthanasia program was applied only to such persons as in the judgment of the experts would die within a period of one year or two years? Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A I believe that the translation into German is not as clear as is necessary for me to understand your questions. Maybe I might ask you to speak a little more slowly so that the interpreter can keep the pace.
Q I asked you, Doctor, whether you wish the Tribunal to believe that euthanasia was applied only to such persons who would in any event die within one or two years.
A. I can't tie myself down by saying that the patient affected would have died one or two years later. Some of them might have died earlier; some of them might have died a little later. The decisive point was not that the anticipated year of death from the date of their being found was considered but what was decisive was the condition of the patient at the time, he was being considered.
Q. Bouhler was not a doctor, was he, Herr Brandt?
A. No, Bouhler was not a doctor.
Q. Now, this letter from Hitler says that you have the responsibility of enlarging the authority of certain physicians by name, Did you do that?
A. Those were authorizations given to certain medical offices by Bouhler and myself jointly.
Q. It says here to enlarge their authority by name. I take that to mean that you know who these people were?
A. These doctors wore dealt with through the Ministry of the Interior, which actually had jurisdiction over these asylums and which nominated them, since neither bouhler nor I could make a survey of these asylums to this degree, so that in fact suggestions were made by the agency concerned, who had knowledge of the personnel under their jurisdiction. Afterwards, after this designation had taken place, the authorization was then given.
Q. Did you investigate these men or cause any investigation to be made?
A. No, it was done on request of the Ministry of the Interior, which was the superior agency of that institution.
Q. But, Herr Brandt, ultimately it was your responsibility and the responsibility of Bouhler to designate those men and to authorize them, was it not.
A. With the authorization and the signing, I carried out an order which was given me, a task of the selection of these men, I mean. We ourselves could not carry out the designation of these men; and in that connection therefore we relied upon the recognized department, which right from the beginning was responsible for such institutions; and we had to rely on them; and we did rely on them.
There was no other solution in practice. Otherwise it would have been necessary for one of us to have first of all the management of such institutes in our hands; and of course that was not the situation.
Q. But as a good follower of the Fuehrer, you of course accept responsibility for their designation, isn't that right?
A. As to responsibility for the designation of these men, the designation, the selection, took place through the Ministry of the Interior, not through me.
Q. So if mistakes were made in selecting these men and they picked out a few reprehensible characters, you don't accept responsibility for that? You had nothing to do with it? Is that right?
A. No, I couldn't say that. I wouldn't say that I had nothing to do with it. The selection did take place, however, through an official agency; and also of course it was to make the difference between authorization and the actual carrying out of such an action. Authorization alone is not the only decisive factor in the putting into effect of this plan. There wore various channels which were instituted; and the possibility of a wrong selection therefore appeared to us to be out of the question.
Q. Now, you must have been interested in who was being selected. Do you remember any of the names of the people who were authorized to accord a mercy death?
A. I can't tell you a single one of thess names. There weren't many of them. There were chiefs of institutes. I have just read one name, Pfannmeuller; and then the name Kartell played an important part.
Q. Now, how about the name Renno?
A. It doesn't mean a thing at the moment.
Q. He was stationed at Hartheim.
A. No, the name Renno does not mean a thing to me at the moment at any rate. I did not learn of him
Q. You knew Hartheim was one of the extermination stations?
A. In Hartheim there was a euthanasia institute, yes.
Q. I don't suppose you knew the name Christian Wirth?
A. I know him from the files. I know him from the files, without the Christian. I know the name Wirth from the files. Probably he is the same.
Q. That is very interesting. You remember that Mr. Gerstein in his affidavit said that Wirth was running this Jewish extermination camp at Treblinka. Do you remember that?
A. That's how I know the name/
Q. You mean you knew his name from the files of this case; you didn't know his name during the euthanasia, program? Is that what you mean?
A. No, I can't recollect having come across this name during the euthanasia program. I am merely trying to express the fact that I know it from the files here.
Q. I misunderstood you. Wirth I will suggest to you, also worked at Hartheim; and of course you don't know the name Schumann, do you?
A. Only now from the files did I get to know it. It wasn't known to me beforehand. I didn't even know that he was in Hartheim at any time.
Q. No, he wasn't; he was at Grafeneck. How many men were authorized to administer euthanasia? You said there were very few. I should think that you would remember them.
A. Those were the people, presumably ten to fifteen, I should assume apart from individual authorizations which had been given in connection with the Reichs Committee Children. Those, of course, were different doctors.
Q. Ten to fifteen men -- well, let's see that we understand one another. Were those ten or fifteen men the men who actually gave the injection in the extermination station or herded the people into the gas chamber? Were these the ten or fifteen who were authorized to administer the mercy deaths, or was that Heyde and Nietsche and the top experts?
Now, whom are we talking about here?
A. In my opinion we are talking about those people who had authority to carry out the euthanasia as such. They were the people who had to carry out the work of experts. Will you repeat the question, please?
Q. I'm not sure that the translation came through so I'll repeat it. I understand that you are stating that ten to fifteen men were authorized actually to carry out euthanasia in the euthanasia stations?
A. I do not think that there were as many as that simultaneously. The total was that high. One or two doctors wore working in the euthanasia institutes who had authority; and, if I recollect it properly, then the total number of institutes amounted, to six, so that this would bring us to a total of twelve. But I also believe that doctors changed so that one might have dropped out and then another one would be given authority. At any rate, the figure was a very low one.
Q. I am sure they did drop out. I suggest to you that Wirth wont to the East to help with the extermination of the Jews, and Schumann went, to Auschwitz to help out with, who extermination of the Jews, but I am curious to know why a man in your position with the responsibility to designate those man with authority to perform outhanasia could not remember the names of 10 or 15 non who were actually doing it. You recalled only yesterday that two to four perCent of the people sent to a euthanasia station were rejected and weren't killed. I can't understand in the far of such remarkable memory that you wouldn't remember the names of 10 or 15 non?
A. I can't remember the names. I am quite sure that name of thus people concerned were sent to the East with my knowledge, neither for the extermination of the Jews nor for any sterilization activities.
Q. How many euthanasia stations aid you visit?
A. I have visited on one occasion.
Q. What station did you visit and when?
A. Grafeneck. This must have been on or about the beginning of 1940. It was at a time when the first administrative set up there had begun to operate in connection----those were departments instituted in connection with ministry cf the Interior. It was because of these registrar offices and news which had come from there there had boon objections on Butler's part right from the word "go" and on my own part regarding the secret procedure connected therewith, and I desired to be once more informed about the problems on hand and so I went there on one occasion end saw it there myself. Apart from that I have not visited any other of these institutes.
Q. So you wort to Grafeneck in 1940; do you remember what month?
A. I can't toll you exactly which month it was.
Q. Well was it the first part cf tho year of the second part of tho year?
A. It seemed to me it was in the first half of the year.
Q. I suppose you not the doctors there?
A. Yes, I saw them.
Q. But you don't remember meeting Schumann who was at Grafeneck?
A. No, I don't remember the name of the doctor who was working there.
Q. Now, how many observation stations did you visit?
A. I didn't visit any. I only went to Grafeneck.
Q. I want to understand this, Grafeneck was a euthanasia station that is where the people were actually killed. I now put the question tion to you, how many observation stations did you visit, which is a place they stopped and they kept them before they went to the euthanasia stations?
A. I have never visited an observation station, neither an observation station nor a euthanasia station. I have only seen Graefneck is all.
Q. Now, you have testified that this letter of Hitler was pre-dated sometime in October 1939, 1 September 1939?
A. That is right.
Q. The day Poland was attacked?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was that done and what were the conditions of pre-dating the letter
A. It was attempted, to express that this decree was the form in which during time of War such an euthanasia program could properly be carried out after the war, at least that was the interpretation of mine at a later stage after I heard about conversations between Dr. Lammers, Conti and the Fuhrer. At a later stage the program was to be defined in another form and continued. The reasons were of former desires, the reasons for pre-dating of that.
Q. I find this a most curious conception that euthanasia somehow is peculiarly applicable in a time of war rather than of peace.
A. It was meant to be continued in time of peace. I said yesterday that before that it had apparently been quite clear through the discussions on the part of the Ministry for the Interior and Dr. Lammers, and even before the War appropriate preparations had been made, but at that time, at that moment apparently these preparations had not reached such a stage of formation and also apart from this in 1935 Hitler appears to have said that in the introduction of such a law and carrying out of such a euthanasia program, it was said by him to be a good thing for the beginning of the War. He also added that he was quite clearly of the opinion that in the War the introduction of any possible objections raised by the Church would be the assist, and as far as that is concerned the dating and signing of this decree is in my opinion to be interpreted why it was signed on 1 September 1939.
Q. You understand I am not arguing with you that this really was a War measure. I just think there is some fundamental disagreement between us as to the reasons it was carried out during the wartime. I am suggesting to you it was carried out during wartime in order to eliminate the kind of so-called worthless lives, to clear hospitals for possible wounded soldiers, to make more doctors and nurses available for the care of the wounded soldiers, to eliminate the necessity for the care and feeding of these worthless lives.
Isn't that the reason that the program was initiated at the beginning of the War?
A. Regarding the question of food, this expression now used by us "useless eaters", let me say this to begin with, if we take into consideration 60 million population for simple reasons of arithmetic, and I then take into consideration 60 million patients, and this work concerning them then this means nothing further than the maintenance of these 60 million people, or 6 to 8 calories per head of the population per day, and I am sure this would not be a decisive factor in the condition of the war, and another consideration if this had been decisive this certainly would not have remained stopped at a time when the food situation beginning in 1942 was infinitely more complicated, and certainly we would have restarted the program, and it would not have been dropped until the end of the war.
I think these must be decisive arguments speaking against the conception of the "useless eater" and gaining space for patients, and gaining medical offices may have been a consideration which was more of an administrative nature. It is not, however, decisive since this gaining of patients' space in amount of 60,000 beds did not play and would not have played an important part. During the war we had up to a million wounded, apart from ordinarily sick people, so that 60,000 would be a very small percentage of that. In fact the gaining of a corresponding number of beds could not be expected apart from the final gain of just a few thousand. Since the further arrival or accruing of insane persons was taking place at a very rapid rate, such considerations as I have just described were in any case without any interest whatever to the medical man concerned -- to the doctors concerned. He was only concerned with his patients, not with economical, political or administrative considerations.
Q. Was it not also decided that those persons able to work should not be killed?
A. The ability to work has nothing whatever to do with these euthanasia or not euthanasia. I pointed out yesterday the question contained a statement not concerned with the extent of the program but in order to find an expression there, just as it can be in the case of a criminal person, a question of the mental condition of the person himself. We are not concerned with the process of the work of a few years there.
Q. Well, I take it then that the questionnaires were filled out on those able to work as well as those unable to work. Is that right?
A. We were not concerned with the question of subdividing them into people capable of work and people not capable of work.
What is significant is the reaction of the person to his treatment and the resulting statement as to how and to what extent he is capable of work, how he can work and what he is capable of doing, in order to form a picture about mental activity and ability to concentrate; and in order to form a picture of that and in order to find out to what extent the person himself can be a possibility, seen from that point of view.
Q You have told us that twice already. I wish you would pay close attention to the formulation of my question, and answer it preferably in a brief manner. You said that consideration of ability to work all played a part insofar as a diagnosis of the patient's condition is concerned. I then put the question to you whether or not individuals that did not fill out questionnaires were from both those able to work and those unable to work, and I am asking you for a "yes" or "no" answer.
A The question whether someone is capable of work or not can be answered with a "yes" or "no'! I can answer it "yes" or "no", if you put it separately with the man capable of work and the one not capable of work.
Q Herr Brandt, you have stated that there are questions to be answered in the questionnaire which concern the ability of the men to work, the patient to work. It has to be stated whether he can work and if so what he does. Now, you state that question is not put in there for the purpose of removing from possible euthanasia those able to work, while applying euthanasia to those unable to work.
A I understand that.
Q I then put the question to you that quite apart from the content of the questionnaire was not required that the questionnaires in the asylums be comleted and be filled out on those same persons in the asylum who were able to work as well as those unable to work. It is simply a question upon what patients did they complete questionnaires, and I have secured no answer.
A Upon persons who for at least 5 years had been in the Institute.
Q How was that again?
A The questionnaires were filled in regarding patients who had been in the Institute for at least five years. And in reference to that it is possible that patients had questionnaires filled out about them who were perfectly capable of work, patients likewise who in no way were included in the euthanasia program. The institutes received instructions to send questionnaires to the agencies concerned every six months stating details about patients who had been in the Institutes for at least five years or more.
Q Now, I think we are about to get the answer. You state then that questionnaires were completed then at least on one class of persons who had been in the asylum at least five years, and that questionnaires were filled out on such persons irresponsive of ability to work?
A Yes.
Q Well, I trust you see the importance of the question, because if in fact the requirement wad that questionnaires be filled out only on those persons who had been in the asylum for five years, and those who also were unable to work then there might be a serious question as to whether or not really ability to work was not a very great and compelling consideration in the applicability of the program to insane persons.
I don't get a clear picture of just what you did to get this euthanasia program in operation, and what you did after it was functioning; would you go ever that just briefly now, please; what did you do to get the program under way and what did you do after it was functioning, briefly and concisely?
A I had nothing to do with the putting into effect of the program. The carrying out of this program was headed by Mr. Bouhler. In fact during that period I myself, with a few exceptions caused by difficult circumstances, such as the Fuehrer being in Berlin, I did not come to Berlin myself during all the years, and in 1942 I was tied down in the Fuehere's Headquarters where I had no deputy for the carrying out of the program and preparations, and which were mentioned carried out by Bouhler in collaboration with Linden's agency. I myself was present during just a few conferences held by Bouhler but my function was to be able to inform the Fuehere repeatedly from the point of view of general medical considerations regarding any special causes, any special events which might occur in the carrying out of the program ain in connection with which it might have appeared necessary to Bouhler to have the decision of the Fuehere obtained. Apart from that it was my task as designated earlier to authorize, together with Bouhler, the doctors' selections for the program. On the chart, which is hanging behind me, it is apparent in my opinion just how Bouhler, through the corresponding channels of orders, authorized the carrying out of the euthanasia program, and how from that the channels lead off to the agent concerned in the Ministry of the Interior. My function within the carrying out cf that program was individual, not in any way in existence apart from the authority, the authorization which I have told you about.
Q Well, you have spent considerable time telling us what you didn't do. The only two things that I think you said that you did do were to assist Bouhler in cooperation with Guertler in designating the doctors to perform the euthanasia, and also as acting as something in the nature of a liaison man between the Fuehrer and Bouhler and the rest of the program, is that right?
A That was in fact my actual function in that connection, with one difference though, that I did not designate, I did not select the doctors. I gave them the authority, the selection and designation came from the Minister of the Interior.
Q. I take it that although you and Bouhler were charged with the responsibility for this program, you in fact, do not accept that responsibility here before the Tribunal?
A. For the carrying out of such, no, and I might call your attention to Bouhler's letter to the Minister of Justice, Guertler, in which he states quite clearly he alone was responsible for the carrying out of the program. I, myself, could not have been responsible for the carrying out of the program since during the period this program was running, during the period of 194l, I was in practice and never in Berlin, with the exception of a few days and was working in an office away from Berlin and it was never planned in this connection that I should be at the head of the program, or its carrying out or that I should supervise it from the point of view of a medical expert. I could not have been in control because I was not a psychiatric expert, but a surgeon.
Q. Well, now Herr Brandt, euthanasia involves a considerable medical problem; how could a layman like Bouhler formulate all these plans to carry out the program, a rather elaborate structure? It seems to me that possibly you must have conferred with Bouhler and jointly reached some understanding of the mechanics of the program, the questionnaire, the form of the questionnaire, the places where euthanasia was to be carried out and a whole host of problems which your Fuehrer surely must have had some interest in?
A. These matters which you have just mentioned were principally discussed between Bouhler and Dr. Linden's department, and not with me; because firstly, I have no knowledge as to the number and situations of these asylums, and secondly, the interest, -- perhaps that is not quite the right word -- should I say perhaps my participation in the matter was connected with general medical problems, but not special medical problems, which the chief expert or experts had dealt with and were dealing with. I had said earlier that I had not actually participated in the conferences dealing with these matters, and in fact the authorizing of the medical experts too was carried out by Bouhler and not by me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will he in recess.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Herr Brandt, before the recess we were dealing with the question of your responsibility in the operation of the Euthanasia program. I have understood your testimony to be to the effect that if any crimes were committed in the operation of Euthanasia, then you were not responsible for those crimes and have been falsely charged in the Indictment; is that a correct conclusion?
A I did not say what you have said just now. According to my opinion, my formulation was a different one. I should like to say that within this Euthanasia program, crimes were excluded according to my opinion and that one has to differentiate basically between the legal program as defined by the decree and all other matters which have happened in Lublin with sterilization and the 14-F-13, which has not been mentioned yet. All these things have nothing at all to do with the Euthanasia program and are in no way on the same medical and human level as was defined by the decree.
Q Herr Brandt, I understand your difficulty in answering the question. The purpose of this question is, I am asking you to assume that crimes were committed pursuant to the operation of Euthanasia. It is a question of fact whether such crimes were committed, but right now, I want you to assume that and I am trying to determine who can be responsible for these crimes. I have understood your testimony in such a manner that it leads me to the conclusion that if crimes were committed; you assert you were not responsible. Is that right?
A I did not learn that crimes occurred within the frame-work of that program. If crimes had occurred and I assume that - then they only have occurred at the Euthanasia station itself, but that too is impossible since the patients who came there only came through a number of experts who passed an opinion on them. The purpose was that within that program every person and I said that yesterday - that is every physician had to act within his own responsibility and all physicians had to act independently of one another. If anyone had committed a crime on that station, the person concerned would be responsible for that crime personally; because if he had committed such a crime he committed it contrary to the directives, which he was given as a physician.
Q Well now, Herr Brandt, we are not getting along very fast with this point. Let us assume that there was no valid German law permitting Euthanasia and I suppose you are not ignorant of the fact that a number of German courts have already so held; I take it that you deny responsibility for the operation, the functioning of the Euthanasia program on the assumption that it was criminal; yes or no?
A The execution was not carried out as a criminal program. I yesterday stated what reasons the physician had for his assumption that it was a legal measure and an addition, during the entire time this program was carried out, it was handled in such a manner that everyone had to assume - if he participated in the execution - that it was a legal program. In a letter from Guentler to Bouhler, it is said that there can be no legal complaints. I saw this letter here on paper, but it justifies my opinion that at that period of time we, who participated in that program, considered it as absolutely legal so that the execution of a crime during its execution cannot be considered.
Q Well, perhaps you would be willing to give us an answer to the question if we exclude your responsibility; would you say that if the program was criminally carried cut that the deceased Bouhler could be found responsible for that?
A The entire program, and I must repeat that, was not considered by Bouhler; Bouhler was of the same opinion as I was, namely, that the Euthanasia program was not criminal. Certainly if he had assumed that it was criminal, he would not have participated in it any more than anyone else.
Q. Didn't you receive reports on the operation of the program?
A. No reports were made as far as I know, and I therefore did not receive any reports.
Q. I thought you stated that part of your responsibility, as small as it was, was to report to the Fuehrer about the operation of this program. How could you report to the Fuehrer if you didn't receive any reports or otherwise gain knowledge of what was going on?
A. I had these first discussions together with Bouhler and the Fuehrer. When you said report I thought you meant a written summary and statement, and I then said that no such reports were made. As far as directives were concerned, all of them were given orally and a report, I understood a yearly report of some report given at a certain period of time about the results of the execution, and I wanted to say that such reports were not made according to my opinion. I haven't received any, and I certainly haven't seen any.
Q. Well, how detailed knowledge did you gain of the actual functioning the program and what reports did you make to the Fuehrer?
A. With reference to the manner of the execution in the form of reports the Fuehrer was not informed by me. Whenever any exceptional questions aro*** and whenever something important came up which Bouhler didn't want to decide on his own initiative, he either approached Hitler himself personally or h** asked me to report the matter to the Fuehrer and then inform him in turn.
What was the nature of some of these special problems that Bouhler didn't want to take responsibility for? We might be interested in those.
A. For instance, there occurred the case of the children, children th** were seven or eight years old and were to be included in this Reich Committ** matter or whether they were not to be included, or the question cane up wh*** they were too old, and in individual cases such matters were reported.
With reference to the euthanasia program there were administrative technical questions which partly were because of complaining letters and ones that started after September 1944, and then we were also concerned with letters that came from the church. At that time I came into contact with Pastor Bodenschwangler and I talked about that yesterday, and these were the matter we were concerned with.
Q. In other words, you were something in the nature of a trouble shooter were you?