I think these must be decisive arguments speaking against the conception of the "useless eater" and gaining space for patients, and gaining medical offices may have been a consideration which was more of an administrative nature. It is not, however, decisive since this gaining of patients' space in amount of 60,000 beds did not play and would not have played an important part. During the war we had up to a million wounded, apart from ordinarily sick people, so that 60,000 would be a very small percentage of that. In fact the gaining of a corresponding number of beds could not be expected apart from the final gain of just a few thousand. Since the further arrival or accruing of insane persons was taking place at a very rapid rate, such considerations as I have just described were in any case without any interest whatever to the medical man concerned -- to the doctors concerned. He was only concerned with his patients, not with economical, political or administrative considerations.
Q. Was it not also decided that those persons able to work should not be killed?
A. The ability to work has nothing whatever to do with these euthanasia or not euthanasia. I pointed out yesterday the question contained a statement not concerned with the extent of the program but in order to find an expression there, just as it can be in the case of a criminal person, a question of the mental condition of the person himself. We are not concerned with the process of the work of a few years there.
Q. Well, I take it then that the questionnaires were filled out on those able to work as well as those unable to work. Is that right?
A. We were not concerned with the question of subdividing them into people capable of work and people not capable of work.
What is significant is the reaction of the person to his treatment and the resulting statement as to how and to what extent he is capable of work, how he can work and what he is capable of doing, in order to form a picture about mental activity and ability to concentrate; and in order to form a picture of that and in order to find out to what extent the person himself can be a possibility, seen from that point of view.
Q You have told us that twice already. I wish you would pay close attention to the formulation of my question, and answer it preferably in a brief manner. You said that consideration of ability to work all played a part insofar as a diagnosis of the patient's condition is concerned. I then put the question to you whether or not individuals that did not fill out questionnaires were from both those able to work and those unable to work, and I am asking you for a "yes" or "no" answer.
A The question whether someone is capable of work or not can be answered with a "yes" or "no'! I can answer it "yes" or "no", if you put it separately with the man capable of work and the one not capable of work.
Q Herr Brandt, you have stated that there are questions to be answered in the questionnaire which concern the ability of the men to work, the patient to work. It has to be stated whether he can work and if so what he does. Now, you state that question is not put in there for the purpose of removing from possible euthanasia those able to work, while applying euthanasia to those unable to work.
A I understand that.
Q I then put the question to you that quite apart from the content of the questionnaire was not required that the questionnaires in the asylums be comleted and be filled out on those same persons in the asylum who were able to work as well as those unable to work. It is simply a question upon what patients did they complete questionnaires, and I have secured no answer.
A Upon persons who for at least 5 years had been in the Institute.
Q How was that again?
A The questionnaires were filled in regarding patients who had been in the Institute for at least five years. And in reference to that it is possible that patients had questionnaires filled out about them who were perfectly capable of work, patients likewise who in no way were included in the euthanasia program. The institutes received instructions to send questionnaires to the agencies concerned every six months stating details about patients who had been in the Institutes for at least five years or more.
Q Now, I think we are about to get the answer. You state then that questionnaires were completed then at least on one class of persons who had been in the asylum at least five years, and that questionnaires were filled out on such persons irresponsive of ability to work?
A Yes.
Q Well, I trust you see the importance of the question, because if in fact the requirement wad that questionnaires be filled out only on those persons who had been in the asylum for five years, and those who also were unable to work then there might be a serious question as to whether or not really ability to work was not a very great and compelling consideration in the applicability of the program to insane persons.
I don't get a clear picture of just what you did to get this euthanasia program in operation, and what you did after it was functioning; would you go ever that just briefly now, please; what did you do to get the program under way and what did you do after it was functioning, briefly and concisely?
A I had nothing to do with the putting into effect of the program. The carrying out of this program was headed by Mr. Bouhler. In fact during that period I myself, with a few exceptions caused by difficult circumstances, such as the Fuehrer being in Berlin, I did not come to Berlin myself during all the years, and in 1942 I was tied down in the Fuehere's Headquarters where I had no deputy for the carrying out of the program and preparations, and which were mentioned carried out by Bouhler in collaboration with Linden's agency. I myself was present during just a few conferences held by Bouhler but my function was to be able to inform the Fuehere repeatedly from the point of view of general medical considerations regarding any special causes, any special events which might occur in the carrying out of the program ain in connection with which it might have appeared necessary to Bouhler to have the decision of the Fuehere obtained. Apart from that it was my task as designated earlier to authorize, together with Bouhler, the doctors' selections for the program. On the chart, which is hanging behind me, it is apparent in my opinion just how Bouhler, through the corresponding channels of orders, authorized the carrying out of the euthanasia program, and how from that the channels lead off to the agent concerned in the Ministry of the Interior. My function within the carrying out cf that program was individual, not in any way in existence apart from the authority, the authorization which I have told you about.
Q Well, you have spent considerable time telling us what you didn't do. The only two things that I think you said that you did do were to assist Bouhler in cooperation with Guertler in designating the doctors to perform the euthanasia, and also as acting as something in the nature of a liaison man between the Fuehrer and Bouhler and the rest of the program, is that right?
A That was in fact my actual function in that connection, with one difference though, that I did not designate, I did not select the doctors. I gave them the authority, the selection and designation came from the Minister of the Interior.
Q. I take it that although you and Bouhler were charged with the responsibility for this program, you in fact, do not accept that responsibility here before the Tribunal?
A. For the carrying out of such, no, and I might call your attention to Bouhler's letter to the Minister of Justice, Guertler, in which he states quite clearly he alone was responsible for the carrying out of the program. I, myself, could not have been responsible for the carrying out of the program since during the period this program was running, during the period of 194l, I was in practice and never in Berlin, with the exception of a few days and was working in an office away from Berlin and it was never planned in this connection that I should be at the head of the program, or its carrying out or that I should supervise it from the point of view of a medical expert. I could not have been in control because I was not a psychiatric expert, but a surgeon.
Q. Well, now Herr Brandt, euthanasia involves a considerable medical problem; how could a layman like Bouhler formulate all these plans to carry out the program, a rather elaborate structure? It seems to me that possibly you must have conferred with Bouhler and jointly reached some understanding of the mechanics of the program, the questionnaire, the form of the questionnaire, the places where euthanasia was to be carried out and a whole host of problems which your Fuehrer surely must have had some interest in?
A. These matters which you have just mentioned were principally discussed between Bouhler and Dr. Linden's department, and not with me; because firstly, I have no knowledge as to the number and situations of these asylums, and secondly, the interest, -- perhaps that is not quite the right word -- should I say perhaps my participation in the matter was connected with general medical problems, but not special medical problems, which the chief expert or experts had dealt with and were dealing with. I had said earlier that I had not actually participated in the conferences dealing with these matters, and in fact the authorizing of the medical experts too was carried out by Bouhler and not by me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will he in recess.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Herr Brandt, before the recess we were dealing with the question of your responsibility in the operation of the Euthanasia program. I have understood your testimony to be to the effect that if any crimes were committed in the operation of Euthanasia, then you were not responsible for those crimes and have been falsely charged in the Indictment; is that a correct conclusion?
A I did not say what you have said just now. According to my opinion, my formulation was a different one. I should like to say that within this Euthanasia program, crimes were excluded according to my opinion and that one has to differentiate basically between the legal program as defined by the decree and all other matters which have happened in Lublin with sterilization and the 14-F-13, which has not been mentioned yet. All these things have nothing at all to do with the Euthanasia program and are in no way on the same medical and human level as was defined by the decree.
Q Herr Brandt, I understand your difficulty in answering the question. The purpose of this question is, I am asking you to assume that crimes were committed pursuant to the operation of Euthanasia. It is a question of fact whether such crimes were committed, but right now, I want you to assume that and I am trying to determine who can be responsible for these crimes. I have understood your testimony in such a manner that it leads me to the conclusion that if crimes were committed; you assert you were not responsible. Is that right?
A I did not learn that crimes occurred within the frame-work of that program. If crimes had occurred and I assume that - then they only have occurred at the Euthanasia station itself, but that too is impossible since the patients who came there only came through a number of experts who passed an opinion on them. The purpose was that within that program every person and I said that yesterday - that is every physician had to act within his own responsibility and all physicians had to act independently of one another. If anyone had committed a crime on that station, the person concerned would be responsible for that crime personally; because if he had committed such a crime he committed it contrary to the directives, which he was given as a physician.
Q Well now, Herr Brandt, we are not getting along very fast with this point. Let us assume that there was no valid German law permitting Euthanasia and I suppose you are not ignorant of the fact that a number of German courts have already so held; I take it that you deny responsibility for the operation, the functioning of the Euthanasia program on the assumption that it was criminal; yes or no?
A The execution was not carried out as a criminal program. I yesterday stated what reasons the physician had for his assumption that it was a legal measure and an addition, during the entire time this program was carried out, it was handled in such a manner that everyone had to assume - if he participated in the execution - that it was a legal program. In a letter from Guentler to Bouhler, it is said that there can be no legal complaints. I saw this letter here on paper, but it justifies my opinion that at that period of time we, who participated in that program, considered it as absolutely legal so that the execution of a crime during its execution cannot be considered.
Q Well, perhaps you would be willing to give us an answer to the question if we exclude your responsibility; would you say that if the program was criminally carried cut that the deceased Bouhler could be found responsible for that?
A The entire program, and I must repeat that, was not considered by Bouhler; Bouhler was of the same opinion as I was, namely, that the Euthanasia program was not criminal. Certainly if he had assumed that it was criminal, he would not have participated in it any more than anyone else.
Q. Didn't you receive reports on the operation of the program?
A. No reports were made as far as I know, and I therefore did not receive any reports.
Q. I thought you stated that part of your responsibility, as small as it was, was to report to the Fuehrer about the operation of this program. How could you report to the Fuehrer if you didn't receive any reports or otherwise gain knowledge of what was going on?
A. I had these first discussions together with Bouhler and the Fuehrer. When you said report I thought you meant a written summary and statement, and I then said that no such reports were made. As far as directives were concerned, all of them were given orally and a report, I understood a yearly report of some report given at a certain period of time about the results of the execution, and I wanted to say that such reports were not made according to my opinion. I haven't received any, and I certainly haven't seen any.
Q. Well, how detailed knowledge did you gain of the actual functioning the program and what reports did you make to the Fuehrer?
A. With reference to the manner of the execution in the form of reports the Fuehrer was not informed by me. Whenever any exceptional questions aro*** and whenever something important came up which Bouhler didn't want to decide on his own initiative, he either approached Hitler himself personally or h** asked me to report the matter to the Fuehrer and then inform him in turn.
What was the nature of some of these special problems that Bouhler didn't want to take responsibility for? We might be interested in those.
A. For instance, there occurred the case of the children, children th** were seven or eight years old and were to be included in this Reich Committ** matter or whether they were not to be included, or the question cane up wh*** they were too old, and in individual cases such matters were reported.
With reference to the euthanasia program there were administrative technical questions which partly were because of complaining letters and ones that started after September 1944, and then we were also concerned with letters that came from the church. At that time I came into contact with Pastor Bodenschwangler and I talked about that yesterday, and these were the matter we were concerned with.
Q. In other words, you were something in the nature of a trouble shooter were you?
Q Didn't you receive reports on the operation of the program?
A No reports were made as far as I know, and I therefore did not receive any reports.
Q I thought you stated that part of your responsibility, as small as it was, was to report to the Fuehrer about the operation of this program. How could you report to the Fuehrer if you didn't receive any reports or otherwise gain knowledge of what was going on?
A I had these first discussions together with Bouhler and the Fuehrer. When you said report I thought you meant a written summary and statement, and I then said that no such reports were made. As far as directives were concerned, all of them were given orally and a report, I understood a yearly report or some report given at a certain period of time about the results of the execution, and I wanted to say that such reports were not made according to my opinion. I haven't received any, and I certainly haven't seen any.
Q With reference to the manner of the execution in the form of reports the Fuehrer was not informed by me. Whenever any exceptional questions arose and whenever something important came up which Bouhler didn't want to decide on his own initiative, he either approached Hitler himself personally or he asked me to report the matter to the Fuehrer and then inform him in turn.
Q What was the nature of some of these special problems that Bouhler didn't want to take responsibility for? We might be interested in those.
A For instance, there occurred the case of the children, children that were seven or eight years old and were to be included in this Reich Committee matter or whether they were not to be included, or the question came up whether they were too old, and in individual cases such matters were reported.
With reference to the euthanasia program there were administrative technical questions which partly were because of complaining letters and ones that started after September, 1944, and then we were also concerned with letters that came from the church. At that time I came into contact with Pastor Bodenschwangler and I talked about that yesterday, and these were the matters we were concerned with.
Q. In other words, you were something in the nature of a trouble shooter, were you?
A That would not be correctly expressed in that way. I was asked to concern myself with these difficulties without being able to decide upon them myself.
Q You mentioned tho euthanasia of children. I take it that organization, the Reich Committee for research on severe heriditary diseases, was part of the whole euthanasia picture as set up after Hitler's letter of 1 September '39; is that right?
A No, this Reich Committee had already been organized before. It was only up to the time of this decree it was not called euthanasia but merely a collection of these children I mentioned one case of Leipzig yesterday which had nothing to do with this committee.
Q Well, that would be the actual killing of children did not start until after Hitler issued this letter of 1 September '1939, did it?
A It did not take place before October since only from that moment on the authorization had begun; that is, from the time this was signed.
Q And the extermination of these children; that is, the authority for doing that, came from this same document of 1 September 1939 addressed to you and to Bouhler; is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, didn't you help formulate the questionnaires which were used in this program?
A I was present during one conference where drafts of these questionnaires were presented. The drafts and questionnaires had been prepared by the Ministry of the Interior and we were concerned with the questionnaire in connection with the Reich Committee. The questionnaires which were prepared for euthanasia program, according to my recollection, were made without my participation. They were prepared by the expert physicians who were at the disposal of the Ministry of the Interior, if they had not already been ready at the Ministry of the Interior before October.
Q Now, you knew Mr. Heyde and Mr. Nietsche, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q They were the so-called top exports for questionnaires?
A Not at once. At first it was Heyde. Heyde, as far as I know, left either at the end of 1940 or at the beginning of 1941 and his successor was Nietsche.
Q Did you select them or appoint them to their job of expertizing these questionnaires?
A No
Q Who did that?
A I believe that was done by the Ministry of the Interior, but I am sure that at the end Bouhler did it, after he had made the acquaintance of the gentlemen of the Ministry of the Interior.
Q Did you confer with Heyde and Nietsche?
A I remember having spoken to Heyde on two or three occasions at the place of Bouhler. I think two or three other physicians were present and it must have been at the beginning of the year of 1940.
Q Herr Brandt, where was your office located in Berlin?
A I had my office at the University clinic in Berlin.
Q But, Herr Brandt, you also had an office in the Reich Chancellery, didn't you?
A In the autumn of 1942 I instituted an office there consisting of a telephone, one room for a secretary, and one assistant, which I had there after I became Commissioner General. Before that time I had no office in the Reich Chancellery.
Q Where was this office located with respect to Bouhler's office. Was it on the same floor of the building?
A It may be that it was on the same floor. Who Reich Chancellery was a large building amounting to three hundred meters of length, consisted of various wings and connecting corridors. There was no contact with the offices of Bouhler from the point of view of space. The offices of Bouhler were at a different wing.
Q Now, Herr Brandt, just how far was your office in the Reich Chancellery from the office occupied by Bouhler?
A It was necessary to go down two flights of stairs, to go through one connecting corridor located at the center of the building, then go up one flight of stairs and to the other side, then go along a corridor for about sixty meters and at the end of that corridor Bouhler's office was located.
Q That sounds to be about a sixty minute trip; is it?
A No, certainly not.
Q Did Heyde and Nietsche go over these questionnaires with you in the early stages of the program?
A I cannot remember Nietsche having been present. The discussion of the questionnaires for the purpose of euthanasia only started, according to my opinion, with reference to the questionnaire where the symptoms of the disease were mentioned. Heyde, I think, was present at that time, but I don't think that the questionnaires were drafted at that time. I think discussions took place after the questionnaires had been finished and printable. With reference to the contents and the formulation of the questionnaires, I was in no position to participate. This was carried out by the expert physicians themselves.
Q Are you willing to swear that Heyde or Nietsche never went over one of these completed questionnaires and discussed their diagnosis with you?
A I don't think that has happened.
Q What orders were issued by you and Bouhler concerning the classes of persons upon whom the questionnaires were to be filled out or completed in the asylums?
A If anything was said by me during these discussions where I participated, it could only have been concerning the fact that the medical responsibility had to play a decisive role and that the physician had to be quite clear about the measures that he took and about the manner of his export opinion that he gave, and to be aware of the responsibility which ho took. I can say that generally since even at other occasions whenever any such question arose, I always maintained that point of view.
Q. Herr Brandt, you either didn't understand the question or in any event you did not answer it. I assume you were not interested in having every so-called insane person in Germany fill out one of these questionnaires. Certain classes of people were not to be considered, isn't that true?
A. There were no exceptions with reference to the filling out of the questionnaire. Later on, of course, this changed, but at first the questionnaires were filled out by all the patients who were in these institutions, and then the certain prerequisites were taken into consideration with reference to the length of stay in the institution and the progress of the disease.
Q. Herr Brandt, suppose a person had been committed to an asylum for a period of one month. Was it required that a questionnaire be filled out on such a person?
A. If a person was in the hospital institution for one month, I don't think it was necessary according to my recollection to fill out such a questionnaire. It could have been filled out if it was in reference to the disease itself such as schizophrenia, epilepsy, and it was provided that such patients should also fill out these questionnaires, but according to my opinion, it was not absolutely necessary.
Q. Well, that is what I am trying to get at. I should have supposed that there would be certain obvious classes of persons who were exempt from one program, and I should further think that you wouldn't bother yourself and spend the time and trouble in having questionnaires completed on such persons; and I have put the question to you as to what orders were issued concerning that problem. Do you know or don't you know?
A. With reference to the illness I gave no directions, and I certainly issued no orders. The questionnaires were compiled according to the possible symptoms. There are certain psychiatric illnesses which do not lead to such consequences as paralytical diseases. In consequence, the expert physicians listed the illnesses where they thought that the serious consequences would occur most frequently.
Q. Herr Brandt, suppose you had a non-German National in an insane asylum for a period of thirty days. He had just been committed and had been there thirty days. Did they fill out a questionnaire on that person or not?
A. The procedure of the filling out of questionnaires in reference to Germans or non-Germans made no difference at all. A questionnaire was filled out in the same way for a non-German as for a German. It was not the principle of nationality but it was the principle of the illness.
Q. All right, I don't think you have answered the question yet. Suppose you had two persons, one a German and one a non-German who had been in the asylum for a period of thirty days. Did they fill out a questionnaire on both such persons or one of them, and if so, which one?
A. The questionnaires were **rked upon in the same way whether we were concerned with a German or a non-German.
Q. I didn't ask you whether they were worked on in the same way. I asked you if they were filled out. Now is your answer that they were filled out?
A. According to my recollection, they did not have to be filled out at that time already, but only at such a period when the patient had been in that institution for a period of five years. It depended on the length of time he stayed at the institution with reference to the question of filling out or not filling out.
Q. Herr Brandt, I am not in the least bit of a hurry. I will keep you on this stand for three days if necessary to get responses to my questions. I go back to my hypothetical question. We have two persons who have been in the asylum for thirty days. One is a German and one is a non-German National. I ask you whether they filled out the questionnaires on those two persons.
A. According to my opinion, they need not be filled out. They were only to be filled out if they had remained for another four years and eleven months in that institution.
Q. Very well. Your response is that they weren't filled out. You have testified that Euthanasia was not applied to non-German Nationals. Is that correct? Is that your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. By whom were such orders issued?
A. This was decreed by the Fuehrer expressly.
Q. Did you get the order?
A. Bouhler and I received it. That occurred at the same time when the war wounded were accepted.
Q. And to whom did you and Bouhler issue the orders? To whom did you pass it down to?
A. Bouhler passed on this order to his own agency which worked on the questionnaires. The questions of foreigners and war wounded were dealt with within the Agency T-4. The questionnaires of war wounded and foreigners were not passed on for further working on so that a transfer of such patients could not take place.
Q. To whom did you pass down this order?
A. I didn't receive this order for myself, but this question was reported to the Fuehrer by Bouhler, and the Fuehrer decided that war wounded and foreigners were to be accepted. I think that was even before the Agency T-4 was instituted, and that means that before any questionnaires were worked upon, and I am sure that it was even before the time when questionnaires had been prepared because the designation of foreigners into questionnaires can be deduced from that cause.
Q. Well, you want to change your testimony and then say that you did not receive the order that non-German Nationals were to be excluded, that order was given only to Bouhler, and that you did nothing with respect to such order?
A. The execution of Euthanasia and the execution of his orders and directives was carried through by Bouhler in his own agency, and it was not done by me. I never entered this Agency T-4, and I never could issue any orders to them.
Q. Now just exactly to whom did Bouhler pass down this order that non-German Nationals were to be exempted?
A. This order, according to my opinion, he had to pass on to the agency which worked on these questionnaires. I didn't ask Mr. Bouhler about it. I didn't ask him to whom he passed this order since he received this order very clearly, and I am sure that he passed it on in the same form as he received it. I am not informed about the interior structure of this agency, and I was neither informed about the manner how this administrative apparatus worked in detail. I can only say that Bouhler really did that since he, I am sure, executed such an order.
Q. Well, you are assuming that he did; that is what you mean to say, isn't it?
A. If Bouhler received an order, he must have executed it.
Q. All you know is that he received the order?
A. Yes, that he received the order.
Q. Why, Herr Brandt, if this program was not to be applied to non-German Nationals were questionnaires submitted on non-German Nationals?
A. I cannot say anything about the single reasons about that. It seemed simpler to have these questionnaires filled out by these institutions with the order to sort out the non-Germans.
Q. I haven't heard anything about any order to sort out non-German Nationals. All I know is that the questionnaire contains a blank label "Nationality." Are you now suggesting that orders went down to the asylums that they were to sort out non-German Nationals?
A. No. The procedure was reversed. The question of deciding upon a foreigner or non-foreigner was not left to the institution, but at the Central Station T-4 the differentiation was made on the basis of these questionnaires, these foreigners and non-foreigners, war wounded, and with reference to these questionnaires where we were concerned with war wounded and foreigners, we kept them there while the others were distributed among the experts for further treatment.
In this manner it was made impossible that during the later procedure the transfer of such a patient couldn't be made possible to an observation or Euthanasia institution.
Q Herr Brandt, do you realize that the execution of non-German nationals in this so-called Euthanasia order would have been criminal?
A This killing was absolutely in contrast to the order which Hitler gave in this connection, absolutely.
Q In the face of your testimony, Herr Brandt, I must suggest to you that it appears to me quite ridiculous and absurd, that you would have put yourself to the trouble of filling out questionnaires on persons who were from the beginning exempted from the program. Why did you go to that trouble? What was the point in it?
A Maybe it was just a general registration. Other questionnaires were attached to the original questionnaire; namely, the institute to which they belonged, and that was necessary for the purpose of statistical summation about the mental institution space that was available.
Q You are suggesting that these questionnaires were really something in the nature of a survey of insane persons in Germany; is that right?
A No, I do not want to say that. I want to say that in the procedure when one turned to these institutions there were further materials necessary for administrative purposes. You have to differentiate a questionnaire as to the kind of illness, and the questionnaire with reference to statistical data, which was needed.
Q Now, Herr Brandt, the questionnaire was designed and issued for the sole purpose of implementing the Euthanasia Program, and I put it to you that it is a little incredulous that this questionnaire would be completed and filled out and sent to Berlin on a substantial group of people as to whom the program had no application.
A I do not know whether you are putting a question to me or whether you are merely giving me your opinion about it, as it came through the translation.
Q I am asking for your comment on the opinion which I have just expressed. Isn't that procedure a little bit absurd in your opinion?
A No, at this time everything was compressed, summarized, as far as possible, and I know everybody knows what it means to fill in a questionnaire.