Furthermore, Professor Klieve throughout the war was informed of the fact that I personally, with regard to the question of bacteriological warfare, maintained a completely negative point of view. In order to use some banal word which I have expressed on the subject, I would like to mention here that I have always said to my collaborators that in my opinion bacteriological warfare for the next few years in any case would be a still-born child. I have also emphasized that I did not want to obstruct Dr. Klieve's zealousness in his work, because the work and counter measures were urgently necessary and I believe that he understood me quite correctly.
Q Do you know the opinions of the chiefs of the German leadership with regarding bacteriological warfare?
A. I know that the Fuehrer repeatedly did not only express, but that he also ordered, that active bacteriological warfare would be completely out of question for the German Wehrmacht. On one occasion it was also stated that the Fuehrer had made a statement to the effect that the preventive work should only be carried out to a very limited extent because he did not approve of the whole matter.
Q And what was the point of view of Keitel, Brauchitsch and Halder?
A Field Marshal Keitel and my superior, Brauchitsch and with the chief of the General Staff Halder, this question was never discussed. However, I can recall that the Quartermaster General, General Wagner, discussed the subject with me an one occasion and he asked me if this was a matter which would cause us a lot of worry in the circumstances and then I informed him to the effect that in the literature, this work was constantly being mentioned; that I, on the other hand, maintained the personal point of view that we need not worry about it, and when he asked me why not, I replied from the medical point of view the danger was so great for everybody who might engage in this type of warfare for his own territory and for his own troops, I always had the impression that our military leaders were not in favor of this entire type of a bacteriological warfare as a weapon, and that they did not have a very favorable attitude on the subject.
I can also remember that on one occasion I went with Klieve to the new chief of the General Staff, Zeissler, who was to be informed about everything and what we were working on; that we reported to him and that Zeissler showed very little interest, and he showed so little interest that I actually felt sorry for Klieve on that occasion.
Q Did you know that Prof. Blome received an assignment on that field?
A I must state the following in that connection: In June or July of 1943 I, in my capacity as chief cf the Wehrmacht Medical Service, received a letter with the letterhead Reich Research Council, Commissioner of Plenipotentiary for Cancer Research. There I was invited to attend a conference in Berlin at certain date.
I then went to Berlin, accordingly, coming from the Fuehrer's headquarters, and since we were to discuss cancer research I had also brought along my consulting surgeon, Rostock.
The conference took place in Blome's office, and besides him the following persons were present, Ministerial Dirigent Schumann, the Veterinary General Richter and one or two more men, but I cannot remember the exact number anymore.
Dr. Blome opened the conference with a statement that the discussion was to be about bacteriological warfare and that he had received an assignment by Reich Marshal Goering to carry out preventive work and to put it on a breader basis. He also stated that by virtue of this order he was now asking us, and the order may also have stated that he was to actively include himself, but I do not remember that exactly anymore--therefore, he was asking us to give him some brief reports about the status of the defense work and also about the basis and reports which we had received about the work which was being done abroad.
I was the first one to take the stand, and then I stated, that first of all this did not fall within my field of competence, and secondly, I did not have the authority to discuss such work which had been done in the military field and to give any information about the subject without first having received the permission from my superior, Field Marshal Keitel. I also asked him if perhaps he had received a letter stating that Keitel approved of my making a statement on the subject. However, since this was not the case I once more declared myself unable to give him any information whats ever. The other members of the Wehrmacht, Field Marshal General Richter and Ministerial Dirigent Schumann also agreed with my opinion.
Blome then said that of course he could quite understand our point of view and that now he would have to make a return journey, which would of course take some time. This was regrettable because he also had been informed to the effort that at certain places abroad an increase in the work which was being done on this field could be determined.
I can also remember that he made the statement that he actually intended to also include the German press in order to point out to the masses the large danger which might arise in the circumstances. Then, as the only statement which I made during that conference, I stated to Blome that in my opinion I had to warn him of carrying out that intention at this time and even at a later period of time, because now, in the year 1943, As a result of the air attacks and as a result of the fear of phosphorus which really played a major part with the people, and as a result of the incidents during the first half year in 1943 where already there was some unrest which could be felt in the people, that they should be protected from these new fears under all circumstances. Furthermore, the whole problem was not suitable for discussion in the daily press. Blome acknowledged that and then he broke off the conference.
Q Now, what did you do on your part with regard to your military superiors?
A From my office I immediately established contact by telephone with Field Marshal Keitel, and I briefly reported the course of the conference to him, and I reported to him what I had told Blome. Then he briefly said over the telephone, "I agree with you, but since the Reich Marshal is included, send me a written report about this immediately so that I will havo that in hand." I did that. When, after some time, about eight or ten days may have passed, I told him once more that in my opinion there was no urgent necessity at all and that it was not appropriate to follow this now procedure. I had the impression that he agreed with me. However, a short time afterwards I received an order which read approximately as fellows:
The Reich Marshal has decided in the matter of bacteriological warfare that the representatives of the Wehrmacht which attended the conference in June, are to give the necessary information not Dr. Blome who is acting on my orders.
I sent this letter to the Army Medical Inspectorate for compliance with Keitel's order, and with that the whole incident was completed for me. At large intervals then I found out from Klieve that aside from the conferences which took place at Amt Office 9 and which took place at very large intervals that nothing of particular importance had happened there.
Q. Have you spoken with Dr. Blome once more no afterwards, or have corresponded, with him on this matter?
A. I have not corresponded with Blome on this matter nor did I ** any discussing with him after June. I saw tin again once more. That was after January, 1945, or it may have been February, 1945. I saw him in Belitz in connection with another matter, and I only know we briefly touched on the subject. I think briefly it was touched on by both of us, Blome as well as myself, that now with the prosecute state of affairs, the fear of bacteriological warfare which night be a plied by the crony w s now finally over.
Q. In the trial before the International Military Tribunal, the frequently-mentioned Generalarzt Schreiber was also mentioned in connection with this subject. Will you us what was Schroiber's attitude, in your opinion, with regard to bacteriological warfare?
A. His attitude was also a negative one.
Q. He has also expressed that here on the witness stand and, fur ther, that you had supported him in that respect. The question of bacteriological warfare is important for our case also because in the cross examination of Dr. Karl Brandt, the Prosecutor asked the question, "Do you know of an order by Keitel that no experiments should be carried cut on human beings?"
A. I have never discussed this question with Keitel.
Q. The question is still symptomatic because tic Prosecution is trying to express the fact that knowledge existed that experiments were being carried out on human beings in that connection.
I am now asking you have you over discussed the problem of experiments on human beings with your superior in this connection or in any ether connection?
A. No.
Q. I am now coming to another chapter, namely, that of the influence of the National Socialist ideology. General Taylor in his big opening speech has stated that the crimes in this case had their original in the National Socialist ideology.
In a part of the statements which is not unimportant, he deals with the direct effects of National Socialism an medicine. That is on page 96 of the record. Since the National Socialist ideology here is in a certain sense described as responsible for certain things which have been presented here-I must assume in connection with the statements by General Taylor-I must ask you now the following question: were you a member of the NSDAP?
A. No.
Q. Were you a member of the SS?
A. No.
Q. Did you belong to the Reich League of Physicians?
A. No.
Q. Did you belong to any other organization of the Party?
A. No.
Q. What was your attitude toward the Party, towards the ideology and the effects of National Socialism?
A. As I have already stated, I was from 1904 until the end of the war constantly on active military duty, and like most men of my age on the basis of the experiences which I had collect during a long period of time, I had always maintained the point of view that the professional soldier --- and that also includes the medical officers -- should be kept out of Party politics and politics altogether, Accordingly, I have never occupied myself with Party politics throw out the time in excess of what a well-educated human being must know about the happenings in the world and also abut politics.
As is also shown by the history of my life, through the many office and through the necessity of establishing new agencies, I have had so much work that I did not even have any time, or that I did not even feel like occupying myself with politics. Whenever I had time, I used it in order to continue my studies of literature, and if any spare time remained, I occupied myself with my favorite hobby, named music.
I played also and availed myself of all opportunities to attend an opera or a concert, and in this way I kept completely out of Party politics.
Q. Have you ever had any contact with Hitler?
A. After I had become a medical inspector in January 1941, I had to report to the Fuehrers in March. After this period of time, I have only had a direct contact with him once more. That was in August or September of 1944. I had to report to him together with Professor Brandt, and there we discussed the organizational question of the health leadership. Otherwise I did not have any direct contact with him.
Q. In December, 1941, Hitler became Supreme Commander of the Army, and you are alleged to have frequently been received by Brauchitsch and reported to him. How was it that Hitler became Supreme Commander of the Army?
A. This connection was, unfortunately, to our greatest regret completely interrupted. I can only say that we of the Army from the very moment of the dismissal of Field Marshal Brauchitsch in a practical sense did not have a Commander-in Chief at all anymore, while, for example, the Luftwaffe was represented by Georing, the Navy by Raedor and Doonitz, the SS by Himmler, and all of these branches had very powerful representatives in these men.
In the case of the Army the office of the Commander-in-Chief had been term into several pieces and now various leaders had obtained control over the different pieces. While I reported in detail to Brauchitsch at least once in two weeks and I could take all my suggestions and fears to him -- I know personally that quite open ly cared for his sick and injured soldiers and was very much interested in the Medical Service -- suck immediate possibility of exercising any influence ended for me as Army Medical Inspector, and all my influence ended toward the end of 1941. From that time on, I had to turn over my suggestions to the Quartermaster General, and I do not know in what form or to what extent he brought these matters to the knowledge of the Fuehrer.
Q. On the occasion of the conversation which you had with Hitler did you discuss research questions?
A. No.
Q. What was your contact and what was your relationship?
A. I visited the Reichsfuehrer-SS on one occasion at the time what he was already Commander-in-Chief of the reserve amry. That was in August, 1944. I visited at him headquarters in order to at a discussion where the distribution of physicians was discussed. The question was discussed how replacements could be procured for the army units. Otherwise, I did not have any other contacts with Himmler.
Q. Officially. And personally?
A. I did not have any personal contacts with him at all.
Q What contacts did you have with Goering?
A In the winter of 1943 I reported to Goering together with the Medical Chief of the Luftwaffe and the Navy, at his Headquarters in the Romingter Heide where in the end, we also discussed the question that the medical officers would have to be equally distributed; that coordination with regard to the time factor should be made between the front and the homeland. At that time, he stated that he had heard that women medical officers were still at the front when they should be at home, and similar matter. That was the only discussion which I had with Reichsmarshall Goering.
Q I now want to refer once more to Himmler. Did you ever attend a lecture by Himmler?
A Yes, I attended it in the year 1943. The Commander in Chief of the Reserve Army, his name was Bromm, together with the Army Corps Area Commanders, had been ordered to attend a series of lectures at Bad Schachen on Lake Constance. I was also ordered to attend as Army Medical Inspector. I only want to say this in order to have the record complete.
Q What relationship did you have with Bormann?
A None, whatsoever.
Q Well, Bormann, in a certain way is a representative of the Party. Did the Party agencies attempt to gain influence and to intervene in the medical field in the sense of drawing it away from the medical profession's rules, as they used to be applied?
A It was not the withdrawal of the medical rules but it was quite a clear procedure that the Party expressed its opinion that our medical replacements received too little or no political training which was given to all other students. In connection with this, I must state that we of the Wehrmacht had organized the students in the so-called student companies; they were soldier, who had been at the front a year and a half, and who had distinguished themselves there; they received permission to continue their studios but they remained soldiers, and we had organized then into the so-called student companies, whose leader was a medical officer and a university lecturer. We also billited them together in a block of barracks in some community. Until 1944, they included approximately 15,000 medical students.
Of course, the Army, the Party, raised objections against this procedure and it caused the Reich Student Leader to carry out the military sessions of these students and to place them into civilian hands. The reason he gave was that the word philosophical political education of these men was very important, and who would later on become physicians, and would get in contact with the other people, should be completely discharged from the service in the Wehrmacht. With a lot of effort and difficulties, I succeeded until the end of tho war to counteract all those attacks. And, I would like to mention at this place that perhaps I would not have succeeded alone if I had not also, through Professor Brandt, whomever the danger was very great, I had been supported by Professor Brandt, and he reported to the Fuehrer whenever the danger was very great. That was one way of exercising our influence in the medical service.
Q May I interrupt you a minute. General Taylor, in his big opening speech has also discussed medical training under the Nazi system, on page 101, and he has stated that the spirit had been spoiled. You just mentioned the struggle against this influence on the universities where it was not only the active Military Medical Corps, but all through the students who were to become reserve medical officers. In this connection, I would like to know how the case stood with the active Military Corps which was given special training; if they were under the influence of national socialism, and as General Taylor stated, that the spirit of the students was pressed down to a very low level. He said that the level had sunk in a terrible manner. Can you tell no anything, about the directives and with the spirit with which you wanted to fill the student Medical Corps?
A Until the very last moment, in accordance with our tradition of one hundred and fifty years, we educated our youth, and we have not differed from these old principals one iota.
Q Can you give us any proof of that Fact? I am thinking of the words which you addressed to these people on special occasions, at the time of their graduation.
A Yes, I can give you an example. When our active replacements, when in their entirety, passed through our military Medical Academy, when after they had distinguished themselves at the front where they had been engaged in combat operations, then either the Commanding Officer of the Academy or whenever I was in Berlin, I personally swore them in. And, they also received a certificate at that time which contained a certain motto according to what you wanted to have them educated, and this motto was maintained until the end of the war, and as long as candidates for medical officers were being trained. The oath of Hippocrates states: "Devout your life to the medical science and concentrate all your work in gaining practical experience in medicine, Remember the practical word; Wherever love to human beings exist there you will also find love to the medical profession. Humanity and the medical profession cannot be separated from each other. Work constantly in order to become a physician and with a firm character and with love to human beings. Never se anything else in a patient than a suffering follow human being whom you have to help. Try to understand the simple soldier in such a way as if you had grown up together with him because all of us are connected with the same fate."
Q Will you now continue tho the description of all the concepts and all tho influences which was being exercised by the Party?
THE PRESIDENT: Before the Witness proceeds with the case of this examination, the Court will be in recess. If Doctor Kaufmann can bring up the application for the excusing of the defendant Rudolf Brandt I can see him during the recess if the Secretary General will refer him to me.
(A recess was taken)
MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has received the application of Rudolf Brandt through his counsel to be excused from the session. The Tribunal will consider that matter in it's order during the noon recess. Counsel may proceed,
BY DR. NELTE:
Q. Professor, I put my last question to whether any further interferences took place from the party, or rather the party agencies, and I am referring to interference in your sphere of activity?
A. In this connection I should merely like to mention that an attempt was made to interfere with the use of Catholic nurses in our hospital. Repeatedly it was demanded that these nurses be dismissed, and they be substituted by nurses from the Red Cross or the National Socialist nursing association. Up until the end of the war I succeeded in preventing that procedure. These people were excellent in performing their work, and I was sure any substitute would have been a change for the worst. Apart from that, these nurses from the start had been so devoted to their duties and behaved in such an exemplary manner toward our patients that it would have constituted a great injustice to dismiss them. And in this connection too, I should like to emphasize that I on my own initiative probably would not have succeeded in doing that if it wasn't in this case too that I had the help of Professor Karl Brandt against these interferences of the party. He used all of his influence in seeing that these nurses remained in our hospitals and thereby defended us against the attacks of the party.
Q. When submitting documents, I shall submit a few affidavits in that connection.
Now, did you ever attend any large scale party meetings, for instance, the Nurnberg Party Rally?
A. No, at no time at all.
Q. With whom of the co-defendants had you no connection whatsoever, that is to say, as far as there was any official connection. We have already mentioned them and shall report them again, but I now want to find out with whom of these defendants you had no contact whatsoever, privately or officially?
A. Until my arrival in Numberg I had no contact of and official or personal nature with the following twelve gentlemen:
Weltz, Ruff, BeckerFreysing, Rudolf Brandt, Hoven, Pokorny, Sievers, Oberhauser, Popendick, Schaefer, Brack, and Romberg.
Q. During the statements made by the Chief Counsel he mentioned on page 96 of the transcript and speaks about the participation of the German physicians in the excesses of April, 1333, and he speaks about the combating of the old physicians' association. The corps of the medical officers, as I said before was not mentioned in any of those statements. The military physicians on the other hand must be considered a part of the German physician who were active in military service and you are the representative, that is, as Army Medical Inspector, for the army physicians, and later as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service you are the representative for all physicians in the armed forces. In your capacity as representative I should like to ask you whether the military physicians individually or in their entirety participate in any way in the excesses which took, place on the 1st of April, 1933, or whether they participated in my way in the combating of the all physicians organizations.
A. I know of no case and no case was ever mentioned either before the War nor during the entire War.
Q. That is to say, the Medical Officers Corps had nothing to do with these political instances?
A. No.
Q. General Taylor, in his opening speech, on page 98, speaks about, and I quote: "The Prostitution of German Medicine under National Socialism". And, in this connection, he mentioned the principles of medicine to national socialist population policy.
And on page 99, I quote: "The entire public health policy of the Third Reich was put in line with this pronouncement of principles".
And on page 100, I quote: "All German physicians were reorganised through an organization derived from the Reich Physicians Chamber." Although military physicians were not mentioned in particular here I must ask you, since the assertion was made that all physicians were included, were medical officers of the Wehrmacht included and had obligations to abide by them?
A. No.
Q. During the examination and reading of affidavits there was much talk about the organization, its purpose, and meaning of the meetings of the consult, physicians and I shall resist from putting any further questions to you about the preparation, conduct, and results of these meetings. Since, however, this count is connected with the question of conspiracy I should like to give you an opportunity to define your position with reference to the importance of these meetings.
A. In summarizing, I can state the following in that connection: These meetings originated from a mere necessity. They were ordered to take place publicly. On every occasion I made application to my military superior and tried to explain the necessity for these meetings. On that occasion I gave a survey of what I considered to be most urgent problems. Then the military superior decided whether such a meeting can take place or not, because that was something that depended on military situation and the intention of military leadership. The agenda was laid down and a discussion started where these problems were discussed. The results of these meetings were compiled in directives for the benefit of physicians in general, something that was public distributed among all physicians.
As soon as there was a possibility these printed reports were sent out to various agencies and medical officers - sent out to all physicians in order that they may serve as a basis for principal measures and for the information from older physicians to younger physicians.
I am convinced that every physician, and every non-physician, who has an opportunity and takes an opportunity to try to get insight into these meeting reports, will too be completely convinced that therein the serious work in the scientific field of all the German physicians is laid down, opinions that were represented by leading authorities from all territories of Germany. I refer you to my speeches which I made on these occasions and which always constituted a review of the past year, and at the same time a survey of the work to be done during the period to come. And, I stand up to every one of the words which were pronounced on these occasions. The Prosecution submitted one of these speeches as a document. In spite of greatest efforts I, not even up to now, could have found anything in that speech which in any way justifies the severe charge that these meetings were expression and a typical example of a conspiracy of German physicians in order to commit war crimes and crimes again humanity. In conclusion I should like to say that I hope that here at this place these meeting reports will become a document and a mark stone for the serious, dutiful, and almost superhuman work which the German soldiers performed during this long and severe war. And, as the words of Hippocrates were mentioned here repeatedly I should like to emphasize that the German physicians not only were fully aware of these, namely the words "Primem non nocere", but at all times they endeavored to help and to cure whenever they could. And there is nothing further I have to say.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, that brings me to the end of my examination of the defendant and in substantiation of the words which the defendant *ron* pronounced at the end I should like to present affidavit HA-2 which deals with the necessity and purpose of the consulting physicians. You will find that on page 5 of Document Book I and it will become Exhibit 37. I further submit to you a chart of the meeting of consulting physicians on the 17th of May 1944 which took place at Hohenlychen. This will become document HA-2-A, exhibit 38 and it can be found in the annex of Document Book 1. The chart is to show the Tribunal the extent of the work that was done within these two days and the kind of lectures that were given.
Further more, that for the leaders of this meeting and the individual participants it was impossible to listen to a part of these lectures - that all had to confine themselves to their own field. In conclusion I refer to the already submitted affidavit of Gen Arzt Penner, HA-6 which will become Exhibit 26 and the exhibit of Prof. Randerath HA-43, exhibit 32. I finally submit as HA-1, and exhibit 40, an exerpt from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal, regarding, the question of conspiracy and criminal organizations. This is not an evident document. I merely ask you to take notice of it.
JUDGE SIBRING. Dr. Nclte, have yu. ...dentified K.-32 by any exhibit nui'.iber? /
DR. NELTE: HA-32?
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes.
DR. NELTE: I believe HA-32 was not yet submitted. This is in Document Book No. 2. Document HA-32 is an affidavit of the Benedictine Abbey, Maria Laach, Kohlenz. It was not yet submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please give me once more the numbers of these exhibits? You proceeded a little too fast for me to note then as you gave them, beginning with Exihibit HA-2?
MR. NELTE: HA-2 is in Document Book No. 1, Page 5. It is offered as Exhibit 37. Document HA-2a, in Document Book No. 1, can be found in the Annex. It is offered as Exhibit 38. I now offer as Exhibit 39 an affidavit of Generalarzt Juedecke, who speaks about the importance of the meetings of the consulting physicians. This Document HA-51 be can be found in Document Book No. 3 and is therefore not available to the Tribunal. As I said, this meaning Document Book No. 3 is available in the German text but a translation has not yet been completed. Therefore this document is being submitted with the reservation that it will later be supplemented by its English translation. I ask you to accept it as Exhibit 40. These the Document HA-1, Document Book No. 1, legal 1, as Exhibit 40. These are excerpts from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal dated 30 September and 1 October 1946.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, it is not necessary to offer that as an exhibit. The Tribunal will take judicial notice of it if you call attention to it in your Document Book. It need not have an exhibit number to be introduced as an exhibit.
DR. NELTE: It will have no exhibit number. The Tribunal will remember that they asked the Prosecution to put the printed reports of the meetings of the consulting physicians at my disposal. The Prosecution did that very kindly. In accordance with the suggestions of the Tribunal I asked to read, copy, and translate some parts of those printed reports. The translations of the copies of these reports have not yet been made and I should like to be able to submit these excerpts as evidence as soon as they come back to me.
It may be possible to do that when I present my short documentary evidence.
Finally, I should like to ask the High Tribunal to help me in the matter of my witnesses, Schmidt-Bruecken and Hartleben. Although the Marshal told no a few days age, and gave me a letter from which it would appear that these witnesses were here, I have not yet had an opportunity to speak to these witnesses. I was told that they are not here at all. After the conclusion of cross-examination I should like to hear these two witnesses in the courtroom and I should like to ask the Tribunal to find out on their part where these witnesses are.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Secretary General endeavor to ascertain the whereabouts of the two witnesses mentioned by counsel for the Defendant Handloser during the noon recess?
DR. NELTE: Thank you very much. And that brings me to the end of my examination of the Defendant Handloser.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Nelte, on February 12 some reference was made to a Dr. Haas of Laval. The Tribunal put a question to the defendant concerning the identity and official status of the doctor, to which some general answer was given by the defendant to the effect that the defendant thought that Haas was a civilian connected with some sort of civilian research institute. I believe that at that time you state to the Tribunal that before you conclude your case you would be able to give us further information, either through a witness or by affidavits, of the exact and precise nature, and it will be your purpose same time before you close your case to do that, I suppose?
DR. NELTE: Yes.
JUDGE SEBRING: During the course of the examination of this defendant the defendant has referred several times to the fact that in certain matters involving certain decisions, the defendant Karl Brandt successfully interceded for him and I am now directing this question to the witness: With whom did Karl Brandt intercede?
DR. NELTE: I don't believe the translation was quite correct. The translation was given as "raised objection." I think that the Judge wanted.
to know at what agency Prof. Brandt supported you?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That could only have been done at any agency which had any influence. I suppose that in Party affairs it would have been Bermann except for the Fuehrer as far as I can judge it, and if we were concerned with military affairs I think he would have intervened with the Fuehrer and spoken to him.
JUDGE SEBRING: Something was said about Dr. Handloser being urged, even commanded, to rid his organization of catholic nurses and to supplant them with nurses taken from the SS organization, and that Karl Brandt supported him in his view to retain the catholic nurses. With whom did Karl Brandt intercede in your support?
THE WITNESS: I may say that "SS Sisters" is not correct. It is "NS-National Socialist Sisters." It was a National Socialist Nursing Association which has really nothing to do with SS. I cannot say in this special case in what manner Brandt could give me support. During another examination I think a document was submitted where somebody confirmed that Brandt tried to intervene in favor of the catholic sisters. How he really did that, Prof. Brandt would have to state himself. I cannot give you any details about it. I only know its effects.
JUDGE SEBRING: What did you understand was the sphere of Dr. Karl Brandt's authority or influence, either in military medical matters or in Party medical matters?
THE WITNESS: We were then not concerned with any authority but it was rather a situation where Prof. Brandt had the possibility which he used to mention such anxieties and worries to the Fuehrer by way of conversation, in order to counter-balance to a certain extent the things which were tried from another side. We were not then concerned with any authority but, as I said before, it was a possibility to bring these matters to the attention of the Fuehrer and inform him about these things from our point of view.
JUDGE SEBRING: Will you state again who had a conflicting point of view with that of yours in regard I to these matters--what persons or agencies either in the government or in the party?