A. That is very unlikely. Such a discussion or discussions would have been prepared for us a matter of course, and invitations are issued a few days before hand. Then there would never be two important discussions of important people who had a great deal of work at this time. There would never be two such discussions on the same day.
Q. It would have been possible that two weeks or one week before there was some discussion of a different group of people?
A. That is quite possible, yes.
Q. But it would probably have been impossible on the same day?
A. Yes, I consider that impossible.
Q. Do you know that Professor Handloser took part in a different discussion and with a larger number of people on the typhus question during this time?
A. No.
Q. I mean a conference, -- that there were discussions with individuals, yes, but a conference?
A. No.
Q. Would you have had occasion to know had Professor Handloser participated in such a discussion or conference?
A. I would certainly have learned of it.
Q. May I say either before or afterwards about the results, your Department probably had to be informed of the results?
A. I would at least have learned of it afterwards and have exploited the results.
Q. Does the name Buchenwald mean anything to you, did you ever hear the name Buchenwald in connection with typhus research, or the typhus question at all?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether between the OKH Institute in Cracow and the Concentration Camp Buchenwald, the experimental station for typhus research, there was any connection?
A. There was no connection.
Q. Now, it has been stated that in Buchenwald in Block 46, that the Weigl vaccine in 1943 was frequently issued for vaccinations; here did Buchenwald get this vaccine?
A. Buchenwald can have obtained this vaccine only from the SS medical store. The vaccine distributed was as follows: It was distributed to the individual medical depots, the branches of the Wehrmacht, which distributed them to the groups.
The Army Medical Inspectorate did not know, for example, which troops received the Navy type of vaccine. That was up to the individual branches of the Wehrmacht.
Q. Were you ever in Buchenwald for any other reason?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell what the occasion was, and what happened?
A. At the beginning of 1943, I think, one day my Section Chief told me, that was Professor Schreiber, that there was a special big action being planned in Africa for an area under the threat of yellow fever. For this purpose a large amount of yellow fever vaccine had to be produced immediately, and Professor Eyer in Cracow had been asked to do this, but there were a number of difficulties. The vaccine so far produced was not properly soluble, and was not stable. It was too easily destroyed by changes in temperature. Therefore Commissions of doctors were to be set up to vaccinate the troops on the spot against yellow fever. They and the vaccine were to be sent by plane to Africa. Professor Eyer had solved the difficulties about the solubility of the vaccine by devising a different method of packing. Now, Professor Eyer was to be in a Medical Commission of the SS. He was to show the Medical Commission of the SS how to carry out this method of packing.
Q. Did the SS have a special part in this action?
A. Yes, it was expected that special divisions of the SS would participate, the Leibstandarte and the Reich were mentioned, for example. Well, then Professor Eyer was to go to an SS group near Weimar, and I was to obtain information on this subject and accompany him. We went and members of the SS received us at the Railroad station and took us to the concentration Camp Buchenwald, and we were taken to Ante Room of a barracks where a table was set up, and we met a few SS medical officers where a table was set up, and we met a few SS medical officers to whom Professor Eyer demonstrated his vaccine packing.
So his packing, --he had brought the vaccine with him, a few ampules and he showed how it was to be dissolved. It was a dry product.
Q. The impression is given that this was cardboard box. Will you please describe what this was?
A. The vaccine was formerly packed in a test tube, a glass tube. At the bottom of this glass was the dry vaccine. The glass had to be especially fixed, because the vaccine was kept in a vacuum. It was very difficult to open this ampule without infecting the vaccine and destroying the ampule. Now, Professor Eyer had developed a new type of glass container in the shape of a duck. If I may make, --- use the metaphor, the Vaccine was in the body of the duck. In the neck of the duck the glass was under special tension. If one filed this place upon the ampule opened immediately without breaking. Sterile water could be put into it and the vaccine was dissolved by sharing with the pieces of glass which were in the container, and the difficulties which had existed were thus solved. Only the vaccine still had to be kept and transported under refrigeration. Therefore, it had to be flown to Africa.
Q Then the purpose of the visit was not to test the vaccine, but to demonstrate these ampules?
A The purpose of the visit was to demonstrate these ampules and the technic of opening them and dissolving the vaccine. This technic was shown to members of the SS and the Medical Corps of the SS, and all of them repeated it in order to guarantee the results. Then as far as I know Dr. Ding vaccinated a few people with this vaccine, five or six men came in and they were vaccinated in the arm with this vaccine. This corresponds to the well known smallpox vaccination, a scratch on the upper arm.
Q Would one call this vaccination an experiment in the medical sense?
A No, this was an international known vaccine which is produced in all civilized countries, and has proved its value for many years. It is even less dangerous than smallpox vaccine. Smallpox vaccine can lead to complications, but not yellow fever vaccine. The effects of the vaccine were well known and we had tested it by the usual bacteriological and chemical means, that is we had tested it for sterility and phenol content.
Q Now, tell us what else you saw in Buchenwald?
A Our stay in Buchenwald was relatively short, about an hour and a half.
Q Did you know that Buchenwald was a concentration camp?
A Before this visit I did not know it.
Q Did you see the concentration camp inmates?
A The camp was practically empty. We saw only a few people doing cleaning up work, working on the roads, and so forth, and on inquiry we learned that the inmates were being used for work. Since we were looking at it from the point of view of hygiene, we looked at the kitchens, two or three of the shelters, the sewage system, and that was the end of the visit. When we left we saw a large group of concentration camp inmates marching in. They were singing and were accompanied by mouth organs.
Q Then what was the impression you got there in Buchenwald?
A I had the impression that it was a big barracks and from the point of view of the hygienists it was extremely clean, and made a very clear impression.
Q Now, you went home, that is to Berlin?
A Yes.
Q And what did you report?
A I reported to my section chief, Professor Schreiber what I have reported here.
Q In the talk with Dr. Ding, I assume that you talked with him?
A Yes.
Q Did you not discuss what else was done in these rooms in which you demonstrated the ampules?
A No, that was the entrance of the barracks. I don't know what was the building itself.
Q Dr. Ding could have told you, for example, that he was conducting typhus research on concentration camp inmates?
A No, we did not talk about that, and I knew nothing about it.
Q Was that because the time was short, or was there no opportunity because usually colleagues discuss their work with each other.
A We had very little time, it is true. I inquired about the condition in the camp because I had seen many other barracks, and he showed me these things as I have reported.
Q Now, in the Ding Diary which has been submitted to the Tribunal, there is an entry about this visit which you and Dr. Eyer made to Buchenwald on February 8, 1943, but it says something else too, namely, a number of vaccinations with yellow fever were performed beginning with the 9th of February and lasting for several months, and the yellow fever vaccine used for came from the OKH Institute in Cracow; did Professor Eyer or the Medical Inspectorate ever get an assignment to test the vaccine?
A No, and that would have been quite superfluous, because the effect of the vaccine were known.
Q. But it was done; how did it happen that the Concentration Camp Buchenwald got this vaccine?
A. It could not have come from us, because we did nut issue any yellow fever vaccine at all. The vaccine was locked in a special refrigerator and was not used. It might have been possible that in the camp the ampule, which we had opened at that time, was used for vaccinations. Of course, we did not take it along with us when we left, it was useless for us and it had been opened. That is the only explanation that I can think of.
Q. How many doses does such an ampule contain?
A. From such an ampule one can vaccinate fifty to sixty people.
Q. Now, if you left some of the open ampules there when you left, it would have been possible to issu them for vaccinations?
A. I do not know how many people were mentioned in the Document.
Q. There were about sixty .....
But do you see any sense in the vaccinations?
A. No, there was no reason for it.
Q. Now, witness, is it not true that this vaccine was completely harmless and vaccinations with it had no effects whatsoever, especially in Germany?
A. As I have already said, this vaccine was absolutely harmless, even less harmful than small pox vaccines.
Q. Then no one could die from that?
A. That is quite impossible.
Q. Now, after you returned to Berlin, did you see Professor Handloser?
A. I cannot remember.
Q. Did you report to him about this matter in Buchenwald?
A. No, I certainly did not report to him. I reported to the Section Chief and that was the usual procedure.
Q. But, do you believe that this affair, which you have described, was something which Schreiber would have had to report to Professor Handloser?
A. No, that was quite a subordinate matter, which he took care of through his section chief.
Q. In conclusion, I should like to ask you about a Mr. Klieve; did you know Professor Klieve?
A. Yes, I knew him.
Q. Where did Professor Klieve work?
A. Professor Klieve worked at the Waf enamt, at the Ordnance Office and he also had a certain contact with the Medical Inspectorate.
Q. What did he work on?
A. He worked in the field of counter measures against the so-called bacteriological warfare.
Q. How do you know that they were counter measures?
A. He told me about it and he always said that they were working only on counter measures. For example, there was a Fuehrer order that only defense measures were to be worked on.
Q. You, say a negative order that only defense measures were to be worked on?
A. No work could be done to use bacteriological warfare offensively, there was prohibition against active bacteriological warfare.
Q. Do you have the conviction that that was right; that they were working only on defense measures?
A. Yes, I am convinced of that and it was necessary.
Q. Do you knew that from your own personal knowledge?
A. Professor Klieve told me that our Intelligence had reported that the Russians were planning the use of bacteria and for that reason it was necessary for us to take precautionary measures.
Q. I have no further questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel desire to cross-examine this witness?
BY DR. FLEMING: (Counsel for the Defendant Mrugowsky.)
Q. Witness, is it true that at the beginning of the campaign in the East in 1941 a typhus protection for the German troops by protective vaccination was not provided for?
A. There were great difficulties, the medical personnel and the doctors were vaccinated.
Q. And the troops; it was not possible to vaccinate the troops for what reason?
A. There was no vaccine available.
Q. Is it true that at the beginning of the campaign in the East, the German troops had no protection against lice?
A. There was no effective protection. We had a number of delousing establishments, which were not big enough; the chemicals were not adequate and had not been developed far enough.
Q. Then an effective delousing method could be developed only during the war?
A. Yes, the really effective chemical was developed only toward the end of the war; that was called Lauseto and it contained the same substance as the American DDT powder.
Q. Under these circumstances, at the beginning of the war, was the typhus danger in the East very great?
A. It was a great danger.
Q. Then, you say, inder these circumstances, from the medical and military point of view, it was extremely important to have an effective protection against typhus?
A. Yes, I must say so.
Q. Now, I come to another subject. Do you know that after large quantities of gangrene serum had been administered, there were deaths and shock among the patients due to the phenol contents?
A. Yes, the so-called phenol contents was mentioned as phenol-shock.
Q. Do you know whether for this reason there was an effort to have industries remove the phenol contents from the gangrene serum?
A. Yes, I know about that, especially since French firms produced this serum without phenol, but industry ostensibly could not work without phenol since they did not have enough trained personnel during the war and there was therefore danger of contamination by bacteria.
Q. Was gangrene a frequent complication in wounds?
A. Yes, it was quite frequent in the field.
Q. Must one therefore say that the problem of preventing gangrene, from the medical, as well as from the military point of view, can be called extremely important?
A. Yes, one must say so.
Q. Regarding the ampules with yellow fever serum, you said before that the ampules which had been opened were left behind in Buchenwald; you said before your greatest difficulties there were in storing and keeping this serum. Would you tell the Tribunal how long, in your opinion, the serum could be kept in the ampule?
A. That depends on how they were handled; and if they were immediately closed and put in freezing temperature they might be kept one day.
Q. I am thinking of the ampules which you left behind in Buchenwald; were they closed immediately after they were opened or were they laid to one side?
A. They were lying on the table.
Q. And about how long were they lying there?
A. I cannot say. I was in the room a half an hour at the most.
Q. Well, witness, you spoke of passive defense measures against bacteriological warfare and you said that our agents had reported that Russia was preparing for an active warfare with poison?
A. No, I did not hear that.
Q. Now, finally something about vaccinations; was it customary in the army before the general introduction of a new vaccine first to test the effect of the vaccine on a small group of persons and above all the reactions in order to know what the compatibility of the vaccine was?
A. If it was actually a new type of vaccine this was done on volunteers, members of the Army and members of the Military Medical Academy, that is students.
Q. Would you considered it careless or irresponsible if such a new vaccine were used, relying on the statements made by the producing firm about compatibility, without testing the new vaccine in any Arm on a small group?
A. That would depend on who produced it. If it was a well known firm whose reliability had been proved, I would not consider such a test necessary. In other cases, yes.
DR. FLEMING: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination of this witness by any defense counsel? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, let's get a bit better idea of your position in the medical service of the army. To whom were you directly subordinated?
A. I was directly subordinate to Professor Schreiber.
Q. And who did you have working under you?
A. Under mo, Dr. Scholz, who was mentioned before, and Later after Dr. Scholz went into the field there was Dr. Keller, Dr. Peetschke, and a pharmacist, Dr. Lehmann, the latter only to a limited extent.
Q. What problems -- medical problems --were you particularly concerned with between the years '40 and '44?
A. I was only there until the year '44 in the medical inspectorate, 1940 to 1944. The main problem was the production of typhus vaccines and methods of combatting lice.
Q What sort of contact did you have with Handloser? Was it frequent and of a personal character?
A. No. Professor Handloser was my supreme superior, I made no direct reports to him, only later when Professor Schreiber was changed as section chief, and the new section chief was not a hygienist. Then I reported directly to Professor Handloser after reporting to the chief of staff.
Q. When did this changed occur? When did you start reporting directly to Handloser?
A. Unfortunately I do not know the date when Professor Schreiber left the Army Medical Inspectorate, and I don't think I can find it here. But that can probably be found in the records.
Q. Do you remember when Schreiber left the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A. No, I do not remember the year.
A Why did he leave? Do you know?
A. Professor Schreiber became commanding officer of Instruction Group "C" of the Military Medical Academy, and at the same time he became a member of the Reich Research Council.
Q. That doesn't mean that he left the Army Medical Inspectorate, if he became instructor of the Military Medical Academy, does it?
A. Yes, these are two quite separate agencies. The Military Medical Academy was an agency under the Army Medical Inspectorate. In order to become commanding officer of the instruction group he had to resign from the Medical Inspectorate.
Q. But the Military Medical Academy was subordinated to the Army Medical Inspectorate, was it not?
A. Yes, that is true, but Professor Schreiber was not directly under the Army Medical Inspectorate. But he was under the commander of the academy and he was under the Medical Inspectorate.
Q. Isn't it true that certain hygienists in Germany hold the opinion that animal experimentation with typhus is not efficacious because of the fact that 40%, roughly of the experimental animals have resistance to the disease?
A. I know nothing of this opinion. The vaccines were tested in the state institute for experimental therapy in Frankfurt. We had nothing to be with the methods used.
Q. Witness, are you swearing to this Tribunal that you have never read in any medical journal published in Germany, or have never heard from any report, that the opinion was held by certain hygienists that animal experimentation with typhus was not too good, not too reliable, because a good percentage of the animals had resistance to the disease? Are you swearing that you have never heard of that opinion, read any reports about it, or read any articles in medical journals?
A. In this form, in my opinion, that is net true. The method of testing in the state institute was questioned by various agencies, but not the fact that such tests can be conducted on animals at all.
Q. Witness, I don't think you have answered the question. Is there any scientific opinion that animal experimentation with typhus is not reliable? Now answer yes or no.
A. I do not know of this opinion.
Q. Then if the Defendant Karl Brant expressed such an pinion to this Tribunal, he didn't know what he was talking about? He advised the Tribunal that he thought it was probably as necessary to experiment on human beings with typhus as it is with malaria. That is not your opinion?
A. It is not my opinion that typhus experiments must be conducted on human beings.
Q Do you know whether certain experimental animals have resistance typhus? Is it customary that often they do?
A In guinea pigs--and these are the animals concerned--there are certain difficulties, since in series of experiments the guinea gigs sometimes without being infected with typhus, have increased temperatures, but for this purpose a large number are taken to eliminate such inaccuracies.
Q Criticisms were levelled at the experimental methods of the institute at Frankfurt that you have already mentioned?
A Industry sometimes questioned these testing methods, since industry itself called the vaccine good while the state institute said that it was less effective, and we therefore rejected it. This was the vaccine that I mentioned before.
Q Well, you mentioned something about this Bearing Works, the vaccine produced by their institute at Marburg being made from the embryo in a chicken egg. You weren't speaking about their total production, were you? They did produce vaccines developed from the egg yolk, didn't they?
A Yes, there arc two methods of reduction. In the first place the embryo is used. Then a much larger quantity of vaccine is obtained. In the second place the embryo is net used. In our opinion this produced a more effective but a smaller quantity. We used only this latter type without the use of the embryo on the basis of the recommendation of the state institute.
Q Well, I don't think you want to leave the impression with the Tribunal that the Army Medical Inspectorate was rejecting all of the typhus vaccine produced by the Bearing Works. That is not true, is it?
A No, I did not say that. I say only that there were two vaccines from the Bearing Works. One vaccine was quite good, and another using the embryo, which we rejected on the basis of this opinion, which was considered less effective, and we did not use it.
Q Do you know a man named Eugen Hagen?
A Yes.
Q He held, the same opinion that you did about this typhus vaccine produced from the chicken embryo. He went so far as to write a letter objecting to it. Do you knew anything about that?
A No.
Q What contacts did you have with Hagen?
A I had no contacts with him at all. I met him on some occasion since I was a hygienist. I know that he was a professor at Strassburg.
Q You knew he was working on typhus vaccines, didn't you?
A When he was at the Robert Koch Institute he was working on the virus field.
Q Didn't you know that he continued his vaccine experiments, typhus vaccine experiments, after he left the Robert Koch Institute at Strassburg?
A No.
Q You have never been to Strassburg to see him?
A No.
Q Did you usually attend the meetings of the consulting physicians of the army?
A I attended a few meetings, but not all of them.
Q Which ones did you attend?
A I cannot say for certain. I don't know any mere which specific meetings I attended.
Q There were about five, witness. Can't you remember which ones you attended?
A I remember that I did not attend a meeting at Hohen-Luechen.
Q Well, did you attend all of them at the Military Medical Academy where you were working?
A No, not all of them. The whole personnel of the Inspectorate couldn't leave for days. I did not attend the whole meetings. I attended parts of the
THE PRESIDENT: It is now 12:30 o'cl.ck. The Tribunal will recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR SEIDEL: (Counsel for the defendant Herta Oberhauser). Mr. President, the defendant Dr. Herta Oberhauser asks in view of her situation of health to be absent from this session after 3 o'clock. The Prison Physician will submit a medical certificate to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT?: The defendant Oberhauser may be excused after the afternoon recess upon filing a certificate from tho Prison Physician.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, can you tell us definitely of any of the meetings of the Consulting Physicians which you remember having attended?
A I cannot tell that for certain since I only attended individual meetings of the Consulting Physicians, which included about a hundred lectures.
Q Do you possibly remember having attended the meeting of May 1943 at the Military Medical Academy in Berlin?
A During that time, I was in Berlin, It is quite possible that I attended this meeting, at least I may have attended some of the lectures.
Q I assume you attended the lectures concerning hygienic problems?
A That may be. I couldn't tell you that for certain.
Q Well, did you usually attend the meetings where the surgeons were holding forth?
A No, I attended meetings of interest to physicians and hygienists.
Q Do you possibly remember at that meeting in May 1943, at the Hygienic Section, that Doctor Ding made a talk on his Typhus experiments?
A I did not listen to any lecture made by Dr. Ding at any time.
Q When did you first meet Ding?
A I cannot remember that.
Q You do not remember when you first met Dr. Ding?
A No, it was on some occasion in Berlin, but I don't know exactly when.
Q I take it you met him then before your trip to Buchenwald in February 1943?
A Yes. I met him before.
Q Do you remember the occasion of your having met him. Did you have any business with him?
A No, I cannot tell you that.
Q Do you know what Ding was doing?
A I only know that he belonged to the collaborators of Professor Mrugowsky.
Q Do you know that he was working in Buchenwald after you first met him?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q How many times did you see him later? Did you have frequent contacts with him?
A No, I only met him on one or two occasions at tho most. I had no personnal contacts with him at all.
Q Did you have any contacts with Mrugwsky?
A Yes, in so far as hygienic problems arose since part of the Waffen-SS was subordinated under the Army. I reported about that before.
Q How frequently did you have contact with Mrugowsky?
A Very rarely, he only telephoned me maybe once or twice a year. At any rate, very, very, rarely.
Q Did you over consult with him concerning Typhus problems?
A No.
Q Do you know that they had a Typhus producing establishment at Buchenwald?
A No, I only found that out here.
Q I suppose you know Dr. Weigl?
A A Professor Weigl. Yes I saw him once when he visited Cracow.
Q As a matter of fact, wasn't he working for the Army, Dr. Weigl?
A Professor Weigl was working as a bacteriologist in the Institute for Typhus Research in Cracow or Lemberg. The methods he used for the production of vaccines was taken over by us.
Q Well, but he was attached to and working for the Army, wasn't he in 1941 and 1942?
A Yes, he was a civilian employee, so to speak.
Q And, the Army made him available to the Behring Works now plant at Lemberg didn't they?
A No, the Wehrmacht made him available, as I said before, for the institution of a Typhus vaccination production of the industry, that is to say, Behring Works, only in order to increase production and in order to teach them of the technics which he developed.
Q That is what I said, the Army made Weigl available to the Behring Works so they could start a producing plant at Lemberg; that is right isn't it?
A Yes.
Q When did this production plant at Lemberg begin its operations? When did it actually get into Typhus vaccine production?
A I believe no production of any amount came about since the technical installations brought about some technical difficulties, since no actual production could come about. At any rate, I never heard that we received any Typhus vaccines from them for the purpose of the Army.
Q Don't you remember, roughly, when they actually began operations? You remember that the plant hadn't been built at the first part of 1941. Now, don't you remember when they actually, formally opened the Behring Works at Lemberg?
A No I don't remember that. You see, we didn't receive our vaccines from here, and therefore, didn't know from what production agency of the Behring Works this vaccine came.
Q You just turned Weigl over to them and forget about it; is that right?
A No, I didn't know how long Weigl had worked there. I only know that Weigl was made available by us in order to work there with this institution.
It was not my task to send Weigl there or call him back. I had nothing to do with that.
Q You don't remember having attended the opening of the Behring Works? They had a bit of a celebration there late in 1942. You were not there?
A No, I was not there.
Q And you don't even know when they started producing typhus vaccine there; all you know is that they were very much interested in typhus vaccine production. Is that right?
A No, I don't remember these details. As I said before, it was because we didn't know whether it was delivered to us by the Behring Works. I only know that no substantial quantities came from there which we were to use.
Q If you got any Weigl vaccine from the Behring Works, you certainly knew it came from that plant in Lemberg because that was the only place they were producing the Weigl vaccine, except in the two OKH Institutes; is that right?
A I didn't quite understand that.
Q I said if you got any Weigl vaccine from the Behring Works or anything else you knew it had to come from the Behring Works in Lemberg because there was only three places in all of Germany and I think in all of Europe producing the Weigl vaccine; one of them was the OKH Institute at Cracow, the OKH Institute at Lemberg, and the Behring Works at Lemberg, three places?
A That is quite correct, but I had no list at all about the amounts of vaccine or the way the vaccine was produced. It was not my task, you see. The vaccine was distributed by the main medical supply office. We in the Medical Inspectorate only dealt with the question of whether somebody will get vaccine or not, but not what kind of vaccine they were to get; so, I know nothing about the amount of vaccines. I only know what amounts were available on the basis of the list which I received from the Chief Medical Supply Officer, but I certainly didn't know anything of the details, that was not my task.
Q Did you control the allocation of Typhus vaccines for the Wehrmacht?
A With reference to the vaccines which we received ourselves, it was distributed by us to the various Wehrmacht branches according to the size of the epidemic, and the amount of people that were there. Are you referring to an investigation of vaccine, maybe I don't understand you correctly.
Q No, I should think there would have been a central agency in Germany which was advised about the production of vaccine, who was producing it and how much. I should also think that this agency would have control over the allocation of that production, so much allocated to this group and so much to that group; is that right?
A We didn't know what amounts these works were producing, but we only know what amounts we received, and they were then distributed. I didn't know whether the Behring Works distributed any of their vaccines to the civilian sector, for instance; so, we were not justified in approaching the Behring Works and asking them what amount of vaccines they were producing. So, there wasn't any real control.