THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their scats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
**** ****** - Resumed.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Cont'd.)
**** HARDY:
Q Now, Doctor, you have stated that you assumed that a typhus epidemic was raging in the Buchenwald concentration camp, and by that to*on these experimental subjects contracted typhus disease due to this epidemic. New isn't it a little ridiculous to think that medical men of the caliber of Mrugowsky would be commanding a unit where they would experiment with anti-typhus vaccines on **** who already have typhus--what is the value of the experiment?
A There was no necessity for an epidemic to prevail. In large camp, as was tin case in Buchenwal there were currently now diseases and there was always typhus. We thought that a solution could be achieved by taking persons and vaccinating some and not vaccinating others and thereby observe them. I remember that at that it that time I had a bacteriological discussion on that subject and as admitted this morning, I often made changes. I had no further scientific considerations abut that matter since 1 lacked, the education, and it can tell, you no thing about it.
Q Well, let us net argue on that point any further, doctor. I have one further question in regard to typhus. You state the vain of command existing over the Buchenwald Institute was Grawits, Mrugowsky and Ding--is that correct?
A Did you say "series f*ord*rd"
Q I said "the chain of command."
A I see. It went or on Ding, a s Chief of the Experimental Station, to the Reichsarzt-SS.
Q Then you state that in view f Kogan's testimony, Haven's testimony, and the affidavit of Hoven, that is, Document NO 429, which is Prosecution Exhibit 281, where Haven states:
"From my association with Dr. Ding, I understood that the chain of command in the supervision of the 'Spotted Fever Experimental Station' was as follows: Reichsarzt SS Grawitz, Genzken, Mrugowsky, and Ding."
A That was a false assumption. He said "I understand" and that was a false assumption.
Q Then are have Ding assuming this, Hoven assuming it from Ding, Dr. Kegan, the witness, and Mrugowsky" assumed" that was the chain of command. However, you state that was Growitz to Ding and that was all you know about it. Mrugowsky didn't have anything to do with it either?
A Mrugowsky was the expert. He was the so-called hygienic consultant who was asked to give his advice whenever necessary. I testified to that effect before. When seem planning about a new vaccine was started, the Reichsarzt naturally asked Professor Mrugowsky as the Hygienic expert who was at his disposal.
Q And Mrugowsky at that time was your subordinate, hence I assume that you accept responsibility for any activities of Mrugowsky in connection with the Buchenwald experimental stated--is that a correct assumption?
A No, that is not correct; only for his services at the- hygiene institute of the Waffen SS and as a Departmental chief in my office, but not at the experimental station.
Q Well, now, let us go on to an they subject, doctor. The Waffen SS fighting units were subjected to battle conditions. Were many of them wounded?
A The losses were very " read, particularly because it was known that the Waffen SS divisions were always committed at the key point of any battle. That was always customary and therefore the losses were relatively high. I can't give you any exact figures. I only know the figure of the first trial, that from 580,000, only 900 remained alive. That is to say, the losses were something like 400,000 or rather 320,000. Those were the losses as I know them from the first trial. How many dead and hew many injured there were, I can't tell you. I haven't any details available.
Q Well, then, did you have a definite policy established far the care of your wounded soldiers, that is, did you have certain prescribed treatments with various drugs far as gangrene, and battlefield wounds?
A That was the ordinary treatment of any wounded. The wounded were sent to the dressing station, then to the main dressing station to the roar; from there they went to the hospitals and there they were treated on the basis of the principles of surgery.
Q Then the actual preparation for wounds, any drugs ti be used in that course, were of interest to you, weren't they? what I an getting at, Doctor, is that treatment with sulfanilamide would have been f considerable interest to you, wouldn't it?
A Yes. There were two trends prevailing with the a rental surgeons. Some of then were very attached to this way of sulfanilamide treatment. I am particularly thinking of two who started producing themselves in order to be able to blow the sulfanilamide powder into the wound. Then there was another tendency prevailing where sulfanilamide was not used at all. The case was that every physician acted on the basis of his knowledge and conscience, and as I said, before, there were a number of people who were very reticent in using sulfanilamide.
Q. Well, now Fischer has stated in his affidavit, which is Document No. 226, Prosecution Exhibit 234, that the gangrous bacterial cultures for use in the experiments were obtained from the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. These experiments ware carried out in 1942 and 1943, were they not?
A. Yes, it can be seen from the trials.
Q. The Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS during that period of time was subordinate to Department 16, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Department 16 was subordinated to Amtsgruppe D, of which you were Chief was it not?
A. Yes, th t is correct.
Q. Now, these poison bullet experiments and these incendiary bomb experiments, which the prosecution charges against you I have one question to ask; weren't these experiments of deep concern to the Wehrmacht?
A. I always hear about these experiments on the basis of the files presented.
Q. And don't you think those experiments Were of benefit to the Wehrmacht wasn't there a possibility that the Wehrmacht would be interested in incondiar bomb treatment?
A. According to what I saw from the - documents the treatment of phosper incendiary bombs was affected with so-called Madaus remedy, that is a homocophatic remedy, and personally I am very skeptical tower that, and I don't know what it can do for a wound. I don't believe any result was reached and I don't believe this experiment was ever exploited.
Q. Now, didn't you tell one of my interrogators a few months ago, I can't recall on what occasion, that you thought poison bullets and incendiary bomb experiments of interest to the Wehrmacht?
A. I didn't say anything about that. I don't know about it.
Q. Now, Doctor, do you know .anything about the euthanasia program?
A. During the interrogations I said I as other physicians, attended, official conferences during the exhibition of the film. I went there and saw the film, A short time thereafter I met Professor De Grenius, Director of the Psychiatric Clinic in Berlin. I met him at the port where I was active, and we had a discussion about that film, and exchanged views on the various aspects.
At this opportunity Professor De Grenius told me very discretely about the Fuehrer's Decree, and said that a department had. been created in the Reich Chancellory in order to carry out euthanasia. He said that this action was stopped in 1941, because of the interference of the Church, and. that is what I knew about euthanasia.
Q. Well, now, what I am getting at, Doctor, you have testified before you saw,a film, a euthanasia film, was that the same film that was brought up during the interrogation of Professor Leibrandt, is that the film I accused?
A. Yes, I believe, where multi-pleurose came in play as a disease, and in my opinion that was a mistake.
Q. Well, my question to you in that regard, Doctor, is where did the film originate from, who was the author of the film, so to speak, were you able to ascertain that when you saw the film?
A. No, I don't know. I don't know what agency originated the film, and I do not know whether the invitation came from the civilian sector. I cannot toll you.
Q. Thank you. Now, Doctor, you have stated that in Department 15 or Ampt 15, which was subordinated to you as Chief of Amtsgruppe D, that Dr. Blumenreuter was Chief of that Division, th't is Ampt 15; now did. Dr. Blumenreuter ever report to you in regard to sterilization experiments?
A. No.
Q. What was your subordinate doing in sterilization work?
A. I learned from the documents here th t he was approached in order to obtain X-ray apparatus and with or. Blumenreuter the same situation prevailed as in the Institute regarding hygiene. As I said before the hygienic institute was the only institute in the country which was not only subordinated to the Waffen SS, 'out also subordinated to the other SS groups, such as the police, and. that all branches of the SS approached, this department in Berlin and demanded from the supply of apparatus, trucks, and so forth. In the course of his activity in science and research or. Grawitz could approach this pharmaceutical institute and could issue orders to them and could, also invite a circle of collaborators and very easily exclude me. Of course in the documents, here we were concerned with the X-ray exhibit, of which I knew nothing.
Q. Yes, that is Document No. 212, which is Prosecution Exhibit 173; the subject of which is "Discussion of Sterilization of Women at Auswitz Concentration Camp." It is most interesting to note, Doctor, that your immediate subordinate, Chief of Ampt 15 directly under your control, states in a letter which I shall quote, "In addition I should like to make a further request, it was SS Ober Brigadefuehrer Dr. Blumenreuter who finally managed to get me one suitable X-ray installation so that he could carry out that serious method of sterilization as proposed by Viktor Brack." It was signed, by Tauber. What was one of your men doing in the Auschwitz Concentration camp, Doctor?
A. I don't know anything about it. Blumenreuter, for instance, supplied the Volksdertsche Mittelstello, and I received, no knowledge of that, and the supply for the concentration camps originated from there and I received no reports from that, as Chief of the Waffen SS Medical Service.
Q. Did Dr. Hohlfolder have any connection with you H-o-h-l-f-e-l-d-e-r?
A. Dr. Hohlfelder was the commander cf the X-ray unit. It was a very peculiar situation. It sounded like medicine, and would imagine it was subordinated to me, but it wasn't subordinated to me, but to the operation of the main office, and was equipped only to people who had some medical experience. That was the only connection this X-ray unit had with the SS. This X-ray unit we really at the disposal cf Conti, who had to decide where this unit was committed. The task of this unit was to take X-ray photos of certain persons and Conti defined them as the people who were to be compromised. The leader of the action was Professor Wuhlfelder who was professor at Frankfurt University and later went to Posen University. That is all I can tell you about this.
Q. Of course you have noted that the Document No. 246, which offhand I don't knew the prosecution number, which is in connection with the case of tubercular pules, that one of your subordinates, Hohlfelder, was also connection with the activities of Blame and Dreiser. How do you explain the fact that your men were in all those programs, sterilization, TB Poles, typhus...
A. I can tell you Dr. Hohlfelder was not a subordinate. This unit was not subordinated to me. I can give you the testimony f Juettner, who is here in this bulling, to the effect that this X-ray unit was not subordinated to the SS but was directly subordinated to the Chief cf Operation of the head office ordered by Himmler. He was not my subordinate.
Q. bell, now, Doctor, is Karl Dimmer familiar to you. W-i-m-m-e-r?
A. No, I hoard this name here for the first time. I can't remember him before.
Q. New, I want to call your attention to Document No. 194, Prosecution Exhibit 263, where Dr. Wimmer was A be transferred to the Waffen SS, in order to aid Dr. Hirt in his Lest experiments, which is another man coring under your jurisdiction as chief of the Waffen SS in connection.
with Last experiments. What do you knew about freezing experiments, Doctor?
A. With reference to Dr. Wimmer I may say this man came at a time, as f ar as I know from the documents it was May 1943, when I had been at Karlsbad, and he certainly was not present at my office. If a physician was transferred the clerical went through my personnel office and I didn't necessarily receive any knowledge of it, but as far as I remember this letter must have been ar under 1943, at a time when I was caught in Berlin. At any rate, I don't remember Dr. Wimmer as a name of one of my physicians at that time.
Q Now, Doctor, do you also recall prosecution Exhibit 79, which is Document 1612-PS, which I will read to you. This is a letter dated 13 December 1942, it is addressed to the following people: Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher - No. 1; No. 2 - Berlin; No. 3 - Medical Office in SS Fuohrungs hauptamt, which is your office in Berlin; No. 4 - Pohl and No. 5 - Ahnonerb The letter concerns the experiments of Dr. Rascher.
"Enclosed I am sending you a letter cf the Reichfuehrer SS with an order for SS Heuptsturmfuchrer Dr. Rascher. You are requested to duly note and accord needed assistance to Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher in the carrying through cf his experiments."
This is obviously a report by karl Brandt. Here you arc receiving a letter indicating you were fully aware these experiments were being carried cut on prisoners at Dachau. You received the letter?
A I was not the recipient of this letter. As I said before it was the SS Hauptamt, and Mr. McHaney, the ether gentleman, was corrected and said that he meant an agency of the SS. My office was called the Medical Department of the Waffen SS. It definitely was in error that it was the agency cf the Reichs Amt. SS. I never read this letter, nor did I receive it. I heard the name cf Rascher for the first time at the internment camp.
Q This address here is Medical Office in SS-Fuehrungshauptamt, that is the German; that was your office - SS-Fuehrungshauptamt?
A Yes; SS-Fuehrungshauptamt.
Q The last paragraph in the letter, addressed to you, signed by H. Himmler, states: "The procurement of the apparatus needs for all the experiments should be discussed in detail with the office of the Reichsarzt-SS, of SS-Wirtscharftsverwaltungshnuptamt (SS Main Office for Economics and administration) and with ******be. The necessary chemical products, medical supplies and glass ware will be made available by SS-Sanitaetsamt (SS Medical Office) Berlin." It was your office that was engaged in the work cf Rascher at the time you were in complete jurisdiction over it?
A Yes, that came under the subject which I have mentioned; mely that the main medical department on or Blumenruether did not only work for the Waffen SS, but for all ether branches of the SS.
Rascher could order from them whatever he liked on the basis cf his authority.
Q I might also call your attention to Ding's Diary, No. 43, Document No. 538, Prosecution Exhibit 122, under the date of 1 February, 1943. The notation in Ding's diary states: "Department cf Sanitiation of the Waffen SS, SS Brif. Bleumenreuther: procurement cf apparatus, instruments, tools, and chemicals for experiments by SS H'Stuf. Dr. Rascher." Your work was quite significant; Blumenruether was your immediate subordinate in Amt. 15?
I also wish to call your attention to Document No. 647, which was Prosecution Exhibit 124: Subject: "Cooperation with the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS." This is dated 16 December 1942. At th t time the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was subordinate to you; was it not?
A The Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was subordinate to me.
Q The letter states: "With reference to my letter of 9 June, 1942, regarding vermin control, a meeting took place first on 21 October 1942 with the participation of SS Standartenfuohrer Dr. Mrugowsky and SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr, Scharlau, Kenscbeckstr, 43/44. Under discussion was the Cooperation not only in the field cf v rain control, but also in the research-sphere of Rascher and with regard to the use of Gastein water in cases of freezing, as well as in various operational field of the Hygiene Institute, as had already been laid 'own in the interview with SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Scharlau on 6 November 1941.
"A further meeting took place them at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS on 20 November 1942 in which SS Standartenfuehrer Dr, Mrugowsky, SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers and Lecturer Dr. May took part. Dr. May promised on that occasion to send in has research plan."
Mrugowsky was your subordinate on 16 December, 1942; was he not?
A What did he premise; I did not hear that last sentence?
Q Mrugowsky was your subordinate on 16 December, 1942; wasn't he?
A Yes, I understood all that, only the last sentence.
Q Your subordinate was concerned with the research of Rascher. The last sentence.
The last sentence says that a further meeting took place at the Hygiene Institute cf the Waffen SS on.20 November 1942 in which your assistant took part.
A I did not receive any report about that and it was not reported to me that Mrugowsky visited the Hygiene Institute or that he made any visits there; I know nothing about these Rascher experiments.
Q What was your rank in the SS, Doctor?
A SS Gruppenfuehrer.
Q You had control over the activities of your subordinates; didn't you?
A My control went as for as it was necessary. I controlled the various departmental chiefs, but only to the ***nt to which it was necessary. I gave them all the freedom which a scientist is to have.
Q I have no further questions, Your Honor.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, referring to the chart which you prepared, Genzken Exhibit 5, which has been admitted in evidence, I note on the left of the block for Himmler, if you will look at the chart, the box containing the name Grawitz, under that is a box marked "Reichs Security Main Office;" who was in that office in charge of conducting that office?
A The chief of the Reichs Security main - Office was Heydrich and after his death Obergrupenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner.
Q Now in the middle?
A This is S.S.U.V.H.A., the main economic and administrative main office; its chief was Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q In the box below that; inspection of concentration camps, who was the head of that?
A The inspectorate cf the concentration camps was Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
Q And who was in immediate control cf the camp at Buchenwald?
A The Camp Commander?
Q Yes.
A I only learned that here; the name of the last commander was Oberfuehrer Tisder. I think he was SS Oberfuehrer.
Q Do you know who was the chief officer of the medical department in Buchenwald?
A That was the camp physician. There were a number of physicians in the camp and the one with the highest position was called the camp physician and Or. Hoven held that position in Buchenwald. For sometime after him it was Or. Schidlowsky as far as I know.
Q Now, at the column on the right, the first lex, "Personal Staff;" who was Himmler's Chief of Staff?
A Personal staff, as far as I remember it was Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff. This was the first level.
Q I did not get that name, witness?
AA-c-l-f-f-.
Q In the box below "SS Operational Main Office/"
A The chief was Obergruppenfuehrer Hans Juettner. There is another Obergruppenfuehrer Max Juettner who was with the SA. The name of this man is Hans.
Q Now, the medical officer of the Waffen SS; the box below that; was that under your command?
A Yes.
Q Who was second in command to you?
A That was the respective chief of the department for medical service. kt first it w s called Ant. 13; which was the highest office in my group of offices. This so-called chief of the medical service at the beginning of the war hold the rank of an Oberfuehrer; his name was Oberfuehrer Fehrensen. He lost his life in Bucharest, then it was Brigade Fuehrer Berndt, who died after he was in prison for a short time. There was certain Brigadefuehrer Rock and after that it was an Oberfuehrer of the Research Department, Dr. Bliss. These were the gentlemen who held this position and represented me in my absence.
Q And the Hygiene Institute was that under Defendant Mrugowsky?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me, witness, what person was in command of Block 46 whore the typhus experimental station was located?
A The chief of this block 46 was Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Dina.
Q And was ho also tho chief of Block 50 when tho typhus vaccine was produced?
A Yes, that was added during tho course of tho year 1943; which was testified to by the fitness, Dr. Kogen. In June of 1943 Block 50 began to be built and on the l6th of August it was ready to be used. Production itself started somewhat later since muejp of the apparatus was lacking. A number of the apparatus was only delivered in December or rather September, so before 1943 production was started. This was at the time when the Hygiene Institute was no longer under my jurisdiction.
Q I have no further questions.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. Dr. Merkel, counsel for the defendant Genzken. Witness, with reference to the extermination of Jews during peace-time, that is to say, up to the year of 1939, you heard, nothing in your capacity as the responsible chief physician of concentration camps?
A. No, I never heard, anything about.
Q. During that period of time, that is, up until the beginning of the war you found no objections to the medical institutions at the concentration camps - the hygienic care of the inmates?
A. No, there was no objection to the raised.
Q. The prosecutor when examining you once submitted, that when describing these inmates you actually speaking about the guards, the SS, and you were not speaking about the housing of the inmates. I want to clarify once more that you naturally meant that you actually inspected all of the institutions which were at the disposal of the inmates, that is today, the accommodations, kitchen, laundry, etc. All of that definitely did not refer to the SS but to the inmates?
A. Yes, it referred, to the inmates.
Q. You said that with reference to the leaders of the departments 13, Ih. 15 and 16 you could issue orders to them. What sphere could you touch?
A. I was their military and technical superior, that is to say, I could issue orders in a military and in a technical sphere.
Q. In the affidavit made by the witness Barnewald which I offered in evidence early this me morning it is stated, that in the correspondence before the title "Department for Typhus and Virus Research" there were the letters "RFSS", which is to say Reichsfuehrer SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Couldn't one conclude from that that there was a very clear non-subordination of this experimental station or the Hygiene Institute?
A. Yes, that seems to me to be true. You can usually conclude the superior agency from a letterhead.
Q. The list of Dr. Hoven, the representative of Dr. Ding, was never touched upon by you on occasion of any conference that you had with Professor Mrugowsky and you never ordered it?
A. That's correct. I didn't know that Hoven was the deputy of Ding and the Chief of the Experimental Station. I didn't know that. I learned it here only.
Q. Not only you don't know that but you never ordered it in any form?
A. Well, if I had ordered it I would have has to know about it
Q. And I once more would like to emphasize another point; you already stated that during cross examination when any monies went to you for the benefit of the Hygiene Institute they were only monies which accrued to the Hygiene Institute itself?
A. Yes, that's correct
Q. As f ar as you know there was never any deputy of Grawitz?
A. It was never ordered and there was never any written order to that effect.
Q. You wore not the only leading physician of the SS as the prosecution tried to establish but you were one of a number of leading physicians physicians in various afferent departments if the SS?
A. Yes, were ail of the same level.
Q. You were a participants in the conference with Himmler in August 1943?
A. Yes, I was ordered to attend this conference together with Grawitz.
Q. Is it correct that the purpose of this conference in the first instance was clinical re-organization and re-construction for frontal soldiers?
A. Yes, we were concerned with the clinical re-organization of the Medical Service of the SS.
Q. During that occasion were there any simultaneous discussions about experiments on human beings, concentration camps in general in any.
A. No, no word was spoken about that in my presence.
Q. I once more would like to state in order to clarify the point that according to your memory Professor Mrugowsky in the Spring of 1943 did not report anything about the infection, the series of experiments, the controls, but rather that this report was only made within that frame as yo u already described it in detail this morning when examination.
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. I have no further questions, Mr. President.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. I would like to be permitted to pit a few questions to the witness following the cross examination. Witness, --
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, just announce your name.
Q Dr. Flemming, counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky. Witness, during cross examination you answered a question by the prosecutor in the following manner: Mrugowsky was the cosulting expert officer by Grawitz; he was there for the purpose for which Ding was also assigned there.
A. Will you please repeat that? I didn't quite got it.
Q. Mrugowsky was the consulting expert officer by Grawitz and he was there for the some purpose for which Ding was assigned there, to.
A. No, that must o a mistake. That is something I want to clarify. I didn't say that. I said merely that Grawitz ordered the appointment of Ding and in that connection he asked Mrugowsky's advise, as he was the oldest Hygienic expert -- adviser. I had never mentioned the word "expert officer." I don't know of any such combination.
Q. In that connection I would like to ask you: the so-called advisers W** always reserve officers?
A. Yes, that's true. I know that in most cases with very few conditions they were reserve officers who acted as advisers.
In my agency there were no advisers at all.
Q. So you really didn't mean that Mrugowsky was the consulting man in an official meaning of the word?
A. I merely meant that from case to case as the eldest hygienic advisor he was at the disposal as an expert.
Q. Judging from your statement as I read it, one could interpret a close connection of Mrugowsky with Block 46 In Buchenwald where the experiments were carried out on inmates and it is for that reason that I should like to ask you once mere: you said before that Mrugowsky was only concerned with typhus vaccine production but had nothing to do with the experiments of Ding's on inmates; is that correct?
A. I said that if production had started before August 1943 he would have still been my subordinate. The production of vaccine was supposed to be affiliated through the Hygienic Institute. As far as Block 46, the experimental station, is concerned the same is valid. What is said before here is he was only an expert and had to be at the disposal of the physician as an expert advisor. That is, to the Reichsarzts.
Q. You don't know how often the Reichsarzts made use of that opportunity?
A. I really don't know. I assume and I want to point out that is an assumption, that the Reichsarzts ordered the appointment of Ding and that in that case he took the counsel of Mrugowsky.
Q. Would you mean by that that he asked him whether he thought Ding was the right man for the position?
A. Yes, that's possible.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. GAWLIK: Dr. Gawlik, counsel for the defendant Hoven. Mr. President, I have a few more questions to put to the witness.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, when testifying about the Kogon Department for typhus and virus research, you stated during the cross examination that Dr. Hoven had been the representative for Block Forty-six, that is, the clinical station?
A. I did not say that, personally. I merely cited it as an utterance made by Dr. Kogon.
Q. Well, here we are not concerned with reciting utterances of Dr. Kogon. He did not say it in this form, either. We are concerned with what you know yourself?
A. I said before I don't know anything about it.
Q. Now, witness, I am again presenting to you a document which had been mentioned once before, No-265. Mr. President, this is page 41 of the German Document Book, volume No. 12, and page 41 of the English Document Book, Page 12. Would you please look at the statement made about the representation of Dr. Ding. One minute witness. Is it correct that according to this entry of Dr. Ding that Defendant Hoven was only a representative of the vaccine production?
A. Yes, that can be seen from this document, namely, that in his absence he had the supervision of the production of the vaccine.
Q. Can it be assumed that if the defendant Hoven had also been the deputy for the clinical station of Block Forty-six, that the diary would have stated that the Stabsarzt-SS was the supervisor of the clinical station and the production of the vaccine?
A. Well, how can I understand that question. I am-
Q. I am asking you whether it is to be assumed. Would not Ding had stated that in his diary?
A. This entry is from the 9 January 1943, and so far as I know from Dr. Hoven, the production of vaccine only started after his departure.
Q. Now, witness, I only want you to speak about the entry in the diary?
A. I assume that HRe was the supervisor for that, too.
Q. Can that be seen from the diary?
A. No, it cannot be seen from the diary.
Q. You know nothing yourself, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Now, if I presented this diary to you, I mean this entry in this diary, could you then maintain your statement which you made during the cross examination to the effect that the defendant Hoven was the representative of the clinical station, or, would you have to correct that statement?
A. I did not say that, but I cited it as an utterance of Hoven's. No, not Hoven, I mean Kogon, Dr. Kogon. I myself did not say that.
DR. FLEMMING: That is all, thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this witness?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions, Mr. President. Thank you.
(witness excused)
THE PRESIDENT: Have you a few documents you could offer before the recess time?
DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, I only have approximately six documents from my document book, and I think it may be more expedient to present my documents tomorrow morning, and I don't think I should need longer than half an hour for that purpose.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 4 March 1947 at 0930 hours)
Official transcript of the American military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 4 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the Defendant Oberheuser who has been excused on account of illness. Her absence will not prejudice her interests in this case.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Defendant Genzken): Mr. President, at the conclusion of my submission of evidence I am going to submit the documents which have not been submitted so far. They are only affidavits through which I am going to prove that nothing was known in the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS about experiments in concentration camps, research did not belong to this sphere of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS. Furthermore, I should like to emphasize by these affidavits the attitude of rejection toward Himmler and Gravitz on the part of Genzken. The first affidavit is Genzken Number 9, page 19 of the Document Book which will become Exhibit No. 9. This is an affidavit of Dr. Joachim-Friedrich Hanisch, and I quote:
"From June 1942 until the end of the war I worked in the From June 1942 until the end of the war I worked in the medical office of the Waffen-SS under Dr. Karl GENZKEN at first as technical advisor in the officers personnel department, and since September 1943 as chief of the department for organization.