I an fully persuaded that not every aviator that dropped a bomb, would not have dropped that bomb, had he been a free acting agent. His General had ordered him to drop this bomb, had told him "this is a duty you have to fulfill, you are not to question it. You are simply to be obediant," and I do not know whether you are being entirely just to a man if you leave out of consideration or minimize this process which goes on in an individual. So if you ask me again I must say again as an individual and physician I should not have done it.
Q You can recall the Polish girls having testified here they never consented to being experimented on; do you know of any of these subjects who gave their consent?
A No, I cannot give you a precise affirmative answer.
Q Have you over talked to any of these girls prior to the experiments?
A No, I spoke to none of them before the experiment.
Q As I understand from your testimony all of these girls were under anesthesia when you arrived to perform the operations, is that right?
A When I entered the operation room they were already under anesthesia.
Q Didn't any of these girls ever come out of the Anesthesia and ask why did you do this to me?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have already told you in the course of my testimony how these things went on, and I also told my own counsel how these patients behaved. No such questions were asked of me by an experimental subject. I was as considerate as possible towards these polish women. I was very sorry for all of them, nor did I make any efforts to conceal that fact. But actual resistance on their part so I could conclude they were being forced, that I did not observe. I did not concern myself with these matters any further for reasons that you will understand, than it was necessary for me to carry out the orders that I had received.
Q You say it wasn't apparent that these girls had been forced into these experiments; would you say then they were all happy they had been operated on?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you are turning my words to a false construction. I did not say that. I spoke of the concern I felt, the concern I felt for the pain they were feeling was much too great for me to be able to make any such statement.
Q Dr. Fischer, are you aware of what crimes these girls had committed at that time?
A I cannot answer that concisely, but before the end of the War I know that they were members of the resistance movement. That I found out before the War was over, because in Hoheylychen later a member of the resistance movement turned up and acted as a technical assistant. In this way I found out that they were members of this resistance movement.
Q Do you know whether or not they had been tried?
A No, I do not. When I received the orders Professor Gebhardt told me that they had been condemned to death, but I never discussed this with any of the girls before I stood before this court.
Q Do you know where and how under German laws death sentences were executed?
A I can tell you nothing very exact about that.
Q. Do you maintain here, Dr. Fischer, that if these girls had been subjugated to these experiments, instead of being executed, the sentences would be reduced and they would be saved; did you know how German law could execute a pardon or a release of persons condemned to death if they were subjected to a medical experiment?
A. I am now being asked about matters that were outside my competence and vision at that time. Of course, I knew nothing about these matters, rather at that time I had the much less complicated notion and believed that these questions lay within the competence of the state in whose legality I believed. It was frequently told me that my participation was as an assistant, my participation was solely that as an assistant and it was not my function to analyze the legal situation. This was entirely outside my assignment. I believe I must protest if you want to subject me to the duty to know whether my action was legal. If I had undertaken these experiments on my own initiative it would be different, but of course that was not the case. My task was strictly limited like the task of any soldier who receives an order.
Q. Now, Doctor, is it true that these girls after having undergone the experiments were shot?
A. Of that I know nothing, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Now, we have introduced evidence here that these girls were not pardoned. Miss Szupulska, in her affidavit, which is Document No. 873, page 52 of Document Book No. 10 stated: "On January 23rd two Polish girls, who were operated on, were shot."
Also you will recall that the witness Madzka stated on page 1449 in the official transcript of this trial that six girls, who were operated on were shot; furthermore she stated that the plan, as laid in the Concentration Camp Ravensbruck was to wipe out, completely annihilate every girl who had undergone the Gebhardt and Fischer experiments; that does not appear that they had any intention of pardoning the girls or reducing the sentence to that of a life sentence; does it?
A. I did not hear your remarks as a question, but rather as a statement, I heard of the situation through the prosecutor's evidence here submitted.
I can assure you that at that time I knew nothing either of the shooting of the shooting or of the subsequent intention to exterminate them.
Q. In other words, you operated on these girls who had been condemned to death and it was expressed to you that such girls would receive their lives as a reward for being subjugated to these experiments and then you did not inquire as to the eventual outcome; did you?
A. I followed the only possible path; to whom should I then have turned? In my communications and reports, I turned only to Professor Gebhardt and I thought also that this was the most effective way because he was in a position to speak to the higher competent authority if necessary.
Q. That follows, Dr. Fischer, that you acted blindly on the orders of Gebhardt; is that right?
A. In this case I deliberately relinquished, any initiative of my own and acted as Gebhardt's subordinate; that is true.
Q. Do you mean to tell me that merely because you were a military man at this time, if Gebhardt told you to go jump in the lake you would have done so?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was an obedient, soldier.
Q. Alright; now Dr. Fischer who selected the subjects to be used for these experiments?
A. I was never present when they were chosen and can tell you nothing precise about it.
Q. Then the Camp Commander at Ravensbruck or the Medical Officers in the camp must have selected the subjects; did they not?
A. No, on the basis of my knowledge of the situation at the camp, I believe that the Camp Commander was told my higher officers, and I believe Gebhardt told me it was the R.S.H.A., who chose the list which was handed to him of the chosen persons and that the medical authorities of the camp, the camp physician or his deputy were simply to carry out the physical examination of these people.
Q. Well, now, isn't it true from the affidavits and evidence submitted here that Schiedlawsky, who was chief medical officer at that time, selected the inmates to be used; Schiedlawsky and his assistant, Camp Doctor Oberhauser?
A. I do not believe that is the case, nor do I believe that that can be seen in the affidavits which have been here submitted. It seems to me that some authority above the camp made the choice of at least nominating those to be chosen.
Q. Now, Doctor, there were several girls in the camp; how does it happen that Woez Plata was selected? Someone must have picked her out to be the only experimental subject out of several hundred; who selected the girls that were used?
A. You are asking me to reply to a question to which I cannot reply.
Q. Now, these experimental subjects were allegedly given a medical examination prior to the operation; is that correct?
A. Yes, as far as I am informed that is true.
Q. Do you recall one of the witnesses here, I cannot state which girl off hand it was, who stated she did not receive a medical examination; she merely walked by Oberhauser and Oberhauser approved of her being used as an experiment; do you recall that, Doctor?
A. Yes, I remember that.
Q. In other words, you never concerned yourself with the selection of the people to be used as experiments or any of the pre-operative examination; did you?
A. I did not take part in those examinations. Mr. Prosecutor, I already indicated earlier that I received this order in addition to my regular work in the clinic, therefore, when I first came to the Camp Ravensbruck for the initial discussion, it was decided by Professor Gebhardt that I was simply the clinical observer there; I only had two hours at my disposal and that the clinical examination before and after was to be the job of the camp physician.
Q Well then you left all that work up to Schiedlawsky and Overhauser and Oberhauser prepared the subjects for the operations; didn't she?
A Oberhauser carried out the preliminary examinations and then made the preparations for the operations; yes.
Q Now, you have stated that all of these subjects were under anesthesia when you arrived; Oberhauser administered the narcotics, didn't she?
A How that was in detail I cannot say, but it is quite possible that she did take part in it, yes.
Q Now; Doctor; in your affidavit; which was written in November; 1945; you stated that these bacterial culturals used in the experiments were obtained from the Hygienist to the Waffen SS: do you still maintain that they were obtained from the Hygienist to the Waffen SS?
A Yes, I know that is correct.
Q Now you are refuting the fact; as stated in your affidavit; that correspondence was carried on with Mrugowsky regarding these cultures; is that right?
A So far as Mrugowsky is personally concerned; I am in the following situation; Mr. Prosecutor. I must try to recall whether my memory is correct that this was correspondence with Mrugowsky is really correct and accurate. I have already described the details which led me to the belief that I would have to withdraw from my statement in the affidavit. I seem to have a visual image of a signature and I believed that it was not correspondence with Mrugowsky's institute; but with Mrugowsky himself; but I am no longer in a position to state with the same definiteness as I did before.
Q Now, this affidavit; which you executed, was executed in November of 1945 before Major Monnigan. I am sure that Major Monnigan never heard the name Mrugowsky before at all; was that not suggested to him by you?
A. Absolutely. I was of the opinion at that time that I would remember that name on that document but I must say that the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS was known to us generally as the Mrugowsky Institute. I did not know the name "Mrugowsky" simply from the signature, but I knew the name "Mrugowsky" as the chief of that Hygienic Institute. His signature was not my only point of departure for the belief that Mrugowsky was involved. I mentioned the name "Mrugowsky" to the interrogating officer in November, 1945, to be sure. It is correct what I was telling about the letter mentioned.
Q. At that time you had no idea you were going to be indicted, did you?
A. I did not have any precise notion as to what would happen to me at that time.
Q. All right, now, this particular correspondence that you refer to that had the signature on it that you now cannot recollect whether it was the signature of Mrugowsky, what was the gist of that correspondence?
A. So far as I recall, the subject of this correspondence was a discussion of the question how an inflammation in general and specifically a gas gangrene inflammation could be dealt with.
Q. Well, now, all this occurred after the first two series of experiments, as I understand it.
A. This happened after the first fifteen persons, yes.
Q. Well, now, your need for these glass splinters and cultures arose when it became apparent that up to that point the inflicted wounds did not simulate actual battlefield woulds, is that right?
A. You stated it a little too broadly. When we saw that the inflammation that arose in the first experiments really was not an inflammation at all, consequently it was no effective test of the effectiveness of sulfonamide.
Q. Now, Dr. Fischer, was there a bacteriological department at Hohenlychen?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any facilities at Hohenlychen to prepare bacterial cultures?
A. No, there was no way of doing so.
Q. In order to obtain the cultures which were used in your experiments, was it not necessary that they be obtained from a bacteriological or hygienic institute?
A. Yes, that was necessary.
Q. And, in fact, was the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS headed by Mrugowsky which supplied the cultures?
A. Yes, it was that institute.
Q. These cultures were potent and virulent, weren't they?
A. The intensity of the cultures is dependent on the density of the bacteria in then.
Q. hell, now, you have had some general experience along these particular lines in the course of your medical education and your internship. Now, let us assume, Doctor, you were the head, the chief, of a hygiene institute. Would you have allowed such potent and virulent cultures to leave your institute without your approval?
A. I must say to this that the bacterial intensity in this case was no stronger than in other experiments. If it is said that these were particularly potent or virulent cultures, this proposition is not correct. Secondly, I do not know what goes on in a bacteriological institute, but I believe that the sending out of bacteriological cultures is one of the daily events in such an institute.
Q. What effect would the application of these cultures to a human being have?
A. They brought about an inflammatory bacteriological reaction.
Q. Pretty virulent, isn't it. Now, Doctor, could Mrugowsky's institute, in your opinion, have supplied such cultures without the approval and knowledge of Mrugowsky?
A. The question didn't come through entirely clearly. Would you mind repeating it, please?
Q. Could Mrugowsky's institute, that is, the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS, have supplied such cultures without the approval and knowledge of its chief. Dr. Mrugowsky?
A. I cannot answer that question.
Q. Could you or anyone else in the Hohenlychen staff have obtained these cultures from the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS without the knowledge and approval of Gebhardt?
A. No. In Hohenlychen that would have been impossible.
Q. Were you not aware of the fact that the sulfanilamide experiments must have caused considerable paid to the experimental subjects? Did you hear my question. Doctor?
A. I heard and understood the question. Mr. Prosecutor, I have seen many human beings who were sick, and I know what an unhappy fate it is to be sick. On the other hand, I know that the pains that make sickness so serious a matter are not in every case dangerous pains. I would like to say that there are sicknesses that are painful but not dangerous, and there are other sicknesses that are less painful but much more dangerous. I had always been raised to respect and to pity human suffering. I, therefore, ask you not to put a question to me that I should have to answer against my inner convictions for the sake of my own defense in that I should have to say that these unfortunate persons had no pain, because, of course, they Aid have pain.
Q. Well, didn't you also consider in addition to this pain that they endured during the course of the experiment that eventually mental depression might have been caused by these pains and by the inability to walk? Didn't that enter into it at all, Doctor?
A. In all these matters I was not entirely impervious to feelings, and those are the reasons why doing this job was so difficult for me. In order to prevent a spreading of the disease past a certain degree, we carried out the surgical operations of which I have spoken, but I believe I can really only answer this question if I return to what I said at the beginning. As an individual, I disapproved of this entire course of events, but I stood confronted with a problem and a responsibility that extended past the sphere in which I could arrive at my own private decisions.
This all took place at a tine when I could not say to myself at all: Active men should consider only the consequences on human beings of their actions.
If you think now of what our motives must have been at that tine, that would be the sane thing as thinking that other human beings might have approved of inflicting pain and death and have taken the responsibility for doing so.
You must think of the different orientation. I confess all this, that these poor people did feel pain and that they were unable to walk, but I must say that I at that time was not in a position to prevent these things in any way or to give that course of developments a different direction. The initiative for those acts did not originate in myself.
Q Now, Doctor, I am fully aware of your position in this matter and the defense which you have offered, but I have a few technical questions I am going to put to you, and each time I ask you a question, I don't want you to go into this tete a tete about the fact that you were fully aware of the pain and suffering. I just want to find out wny you didn't do something about it. As you know, Mr. McHaney and I have always contended that you could have done something about it. Now I will continue.
You did know that these operations would have a lasting effect on the victims and could practically cripple the, didn't you?
A No, I cannot say it that way. I knew that after a surgical incision a scar resulted, but it was to be assumed that this incision would be about the size of a boil and that what would subsequently result would simply be the scar after the incision and a certain stiffening of the muscles in that region; but a crippling of the sort that you are insinuating was not something that I expected as a consequence.
Q Well now, Doctor, your affidavit, that is document number 228, Prosecution Exhibit No. 206, I call your attention again -- you executed this in November 1945. You testified that incisions were made on the lower part of the leg in order to make an amputation possible.
Now then, you did expect that it was possible that these operations might have a lasting lasting on the victims, and you expected that eventual amputation might be necessary, didn't you?
A If one desires to carry out such a surgical operation th then you consider the maximum security and in so doing one must attempt to anticipate any possible contingency. I should not be honest if I should now try to state that in the case of an infection with gas gangrene I could not have seen the possibility of serious infection, or let me state it differently. I cannot say it was completely out of the question that serious consequences would result. In order to have absolute preventative measures, to have taken such measures, we carried out the surgical incision of which you just spoke.
Q Now how about these poor girls who were in the control group. In each series two persons were not given sulfanilimide as a control to determine its effectiveness. Row about those girls? Didn't you expect it might be necessary to amputate in their cases?
A No, at the time it turned out that sulfanilimide was not as strictly effective as we had expected. Consequently the subjects who received sulfanilimide and those who did not went through the same case history. Also I must tell you a basic principle of surgery. The surgeon believes that he is on pretty safe grounds when there is a local infection, because he can always prevent the infection spreading by the use of his surgical knife and this was the case with those persons who did not receive sulfanilimide.
Q Now, doctor, you have heard in this court room the witness Madzka who testified to the effect that the victims of these experiments who died, that is the Polish girls Kuraska, Peplawka, Arusz and Povalowitz would have been saved if amputations had been carried out in time. Dr. Madzka, as you remember, had a medical education, and she was on the scene, now why did you not yourself carry out these amputations, and why did you not order someone else to save the lives of these girls, or was it in the cards that these girls should die?
A I heard the witness, Madzka testify here and I am fully persuaded that Dr. Madzka had good medical training and can express competent opinions on that subject. Nevertheless I should like to say that the evaluation and adjudging of these case histories by Dr. Madzka can be interpreted differently, and I should like to say that the case histories were really different from the way she described them. The hope to keep the sickness from spreading, which Dr. Gebhardt expressed to keep it local, was in vain, if the inflammation did spread throughout the whole tissues. The correct evaluation of such a situation is very difficult and depends upon how much experience the individual has had. Consequently, I should like to say in all modesty that perhaps Dr. Madzka could have been wrong. So far as I observed these things and so far as Dr. Gebhardt saw them, there was no further hope of saving such a life through amputation. The other thing you said in your question, namely, that this might have been in the cards, this I must dispute. Very unfortunately that was not the case.
Q Now doctor, these particular girls who died as a result of experiments, were you attending them when they died?
A First, I was not with them when they died, but during the process of the disease I was present. It took place rather rapidly. I visited their sick beds daily but at the moment that they died I was not on hand.
Q Did Gebhardt - was he attending them when they died?
A He visited them during their sickness, but so far as I know he was not there when they passed on.
Q Who reported their deaths to you?
A Someone among the staff of camp physicians. I don't know who it was at the moment.
Q Oberhauser, wasn't it?
A It is quite possible that it was she.
Q Now, doctor, you have stated that you cannot recall and you do not remember ever having used tetanus in connection with those experiments. Bid you ever consider that sulfanilimide was a potent remedy against tetanus?
A No, nor is it true. Sulfonimides do not have any effect on tetanus germs. We never carried out any innoculations with tetanus. That is out of the question.
Q Now, Madzka says again on page 1439 of the record that Veronika Kruska was infected with tetanus, wasn't she?
A It is true that Dr. Madzka said so, but I can say for certain that in these cultures there was not any tetanus so far as we knew and in this connection one can point out that there are. cases in which tetanus might come up, but at any rate tetanus bacteria were not the cultures which we received.
Q Now assuming the testimony of Dr. Madzka was correct, purely an assumption, now, doctor, on your part in view of this testimony that Miss Kruszka was infected with tetanus in these experiments to determine the effect of sulfanilimide and it could be said medically she was doomed to die from the moment she was infected, is that right?
A Under this assumption I can say the following: I have only seen one or two cases of tetanus in my whole professional career, but so far as I know the prognosis in the case of tetanus is serious. I say this only on the basis of that assumption that you proposed. I can, however, say definitely and specifically we never carried out innoculations with tetanus baccilli.
Q Now, doctor, at this particular time were you familiar with conditions and the situations existing in concentration camps?
A No, I was not.
Q Were you familiar with the situation existing in Ravensbrueck?
A I knew, of course, I heard of the existence of a concentration camp Ravensbrueck only immediately prior to these experiments and before then I could never have imagined what the term concentration camp meant or implied.
Q Well now those girls who had been experimented upon after the completion of the experiments, were they in a position to work?
A I should like to assume so for the greater part of them, for in most of the cases there was only a local inflammation which was then healed and which subsequently left no functional disturbance except, of course, for the scar. With such a scar on them, human beings, of coarse, can work, and it is customary that people who have scars do work. I believed at that time that on the contrary they received preferential treatment, or would have received it. In other words, they would not have been asked to work.
A Now do you suggest to me, doctor, there would have been some girls who would have been unable to work, is that right?
A No, if you got that impression the translation was not correct. I wanted to say that being used for work would not have been a great burden on the great part of those who were experimented upon, and in the case of the last group who were seriously sick, they could not work for some period of time.
A Well, you were aware of the fact, the girls in Ravensbrueck were subjected to hard labor at times, weren't you?
A I knew nothing about these matters and I find difficulty in expressing myself hero but I am sure you will understand me if I say that I did not inquire further into the cir cumstances there than was necessary for my work.
I have no precise notion of what labor demands were made on the inmates in particular. I know nothing of increased labor demands made on them.
Q Well, do you know, doctor, and I assume you did, that inability to work in a concentration camp was identical with the death sentence, that only people who were able to work could survive in those surroundings. Didn't you know that?
A No, that I did not know, Mr. Prosecutor.
MR. HARDY: This is a good breaking point, your Honors. I am going to another subject.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
(A short recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in tho court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Fischer, you have testified hero at some length in connection with the bone transplantation experiments. Now, you are a trained pathologist and I am now asking you as an expert - is there any difference in tho regeneration of bones of animals of tho mammalian group compared to that of human beings?
A I cannot give you an exact answer to that question which could, in any way, be the answer of an expert. I believe, however, that in the case of animals the situation will be different and that for that reason there can be no possibility of comparison of regeneration compared to human beings. In order to summarize it in one sentence: As far as I remember, the power of regeneration of the tissues with animals is much stronger than in the case of human beings.
Q Now, doctor, could these bone transplantation experiments have been carried out on animals just as well as human beings except for the fact that, under tho circumstances, human beings were cheaper than animals?
A With reference to your letter sentence, I really don't think I want to answer it. The bone transplantation was not carried through by me and I only have knowledge of it as it could be read in the publications of Dr. Stumpfegger. As far as I am informed, Dr. Stumpfegger wanted to prove something else and that was the austegiene substance, a certain power which only could be tested in relation to the human being.
Q Did you over remove extremities or parts of extremities from any inmate of the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp and transport that limb or part of a limb to Hohenlychen?
A No, that was not the case. With the exception of the single case of mobilization of a shoulder blade which I described this morning during direct examination.
Q "Well, now, that scapula or shoulder blade - that is a part of the shoulder girdle, is it not?
A Yes, that is a part of the shoulder girdle.
Q Is it an important part of these shoulder girdle or isn't it?
A It is a very essential part of the shoulder girdle.
Q Now, after removal of the scapula, is a man no longer able to elevate his arm?
A Yes, partly he is able to do that, but the movement is certainly essentially restricted.
Q Well, now, the prisoner whose shoulder blade you removed - was that a man or a woman?
A I don't know that exactly.
Q Do you know his or her name?
A No, I don't know that.
Q In previous interrogations, Dr. Fischer, you have stated that it was a man while Gebhardt stated it was a woman. Can you clear this mystery up for us?
A Yes. Inasmuch as I wasn't informed about that person for the reasons which p have described. When having this evening conference with Stumpfegger I had the impression that we were concerned with the shoulder of male inmate whose arm had been amputated - or rather, whose hand had been amputated.
Q Now, I have been waiting for that statement. You told Mr. McHanoy and I in our interrogation last fall that the person upon whom you had operated to remove the scapula that said person had no arm. Now you say no hand. Which is true?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, this conversation to which you are referring contained exactly the same testimony which I made here now. At that time you also asked me whether I was not in a position to observe that. We are speaking about an arm amputation but in most case we don't mean the amputation of the entire arm but the amputation of the essential functional part of the arm, which is the hand. For instance, in technical terminology one might say "he is a man whose arm was amputated", when in reality only his hand was amputated.
Q. Well, now, Doctor, did you examine this man yourself?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to him?
A. No I didn't.
Q. Do you know whether he gave consent to the removal of his scapula, which is the main bony part of the shoulder girdle?
A. No, I did not know that either. I tried to describe to you today what the special situation was under which I was assigned to do the job and under what situation I mobilize that shoulder blade.
Q I am fully aware of that, doctor. Now do you men to tell me that you could possibly operate on a person and remove his scapula and not be able to determine whether or not that person had a hand or an arm?
A. Yes, that is possible.
Q. Goodness doctor, you were right over the person, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you still couldn't tell whether or not that person had an arm?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the person who is being operated on is completely covered except for the part which is the area of the operation.
Q. Well, I should thank it would be obvious, regardless of the fact that they are covered, that there is no arm under the sheet or whatever they cover them with.
A. No, that isn't the case.
Q. Well, now, do you know what happened to this fellow afterwards?
A. This patient we are concerned with went over to the care of Dr. Stumpfegger.