At the top of the page.
A Yes. I would like to. "I could now begin to realize my old plan, namely to set up a medical battle in which was started in 1932 and equip it just as a regular company of the Reichswehr. Since Germany had not yet regained its military liberty we had no choice but to work quietly for the emergency of again and again threatened war, namely for re argument. The Medical Service of the one hundred thousand man Army, as it was defined by the Versailles Treaty certainly could not suffice as it was ?? every reserve was welcome. I succeeded to obtain a large sum of money and with that get the complete equipment necessary for a medical company. The physicians very ardently worked for the war time equipment of this medical company. In case of war I would have been in a position to give to the Wehrmacht a completely equipped medical company and place them entirely at their disposal." This money which has been mentioned here originated from the German Red Cross at Mecklenburg which was here for medical purposes. And, had a war came about it would have helped the wounded and sick soldiers - the soldiers of Germany as well as the soldiers of their opponents.
Q Isn't there another quotation on that same page before we finish up this noon, doctor? Isn't there another quotation at the bottom of the page that I have marked with red pencil? Will you read that also? The one that goes over to the next page, would you read that, too, please?
A Yes, that is the continuation of what I have just read.
Q This is a convenient breaking point, your Honor, I am going on to another subject.
THE TRIBUNAL: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1330.
(A recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
TEE MARSHAL: Poisons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
KURT BLOME -- Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued BY MR. HARDY:
Q. At the noon recess, Doctor, I inquired as to whether or not you had read the last section of that particular subject concerning the lectures about was surgery, gas poisoning, and so forth, and my colleague, Dr. Hochwald, informs me that you have not. So, at this time, I'm going to ask that you will read this last Paragraph that I have now marked in blue ink. It goes on to page 266, Doctor.
A. I quote: "I, as a former officer, was interested in the military training of all SA doctors. Under an agreement with the Commander of the Rostock-Reichswehr, Lieutenant Colonel von Tay, I ordered over one hundred SA doctors to come to Rostock for a whole week. Everyone were a uniform as they had during time of combat, at their own expense. The courses took place in the University clinic. From military surgery to the combatting of epidemic from gas poisoning to the tactics of medicine in general. Everything was discussed here. Military exercises were the conclusion, which took place in the neighborhood of Rostock with SA, in which SCH, the battalion physician, who was a friend of mine, took part. "
Q Now, here in your book, Doctor, you state that you received funds to build up medical units; that you participated in this secret army and you gave these lectures. Now, is it my understanding that your purpose in doing all this was only to prepare for an event whereby another country might attack or declare war on Germany?
A. Yes, that is clearly to be seen from the previous citation from their book in which it was actually set down in writing that our measures were taken in case we should be attacked. That is a result which is a matter of course in any country.
Q. What were your ideas along racial lines, Doctor?
A. Could I ask you please to ask me individual questions in this matter I believe that otherwise it might take too long.
Q. Well, we'll get to the core quickly, Doctor. You were decidedly anti-Semitic, weren't you?
A. May I ask what you understand "anti-Semitic" to be so that I may correctly answer the question?
Q. That you were in favor of any program instituted against the Jews.
A. shall endeavor to understand your question correctly and to also endeavor to keep my answer brief.
In the National Socialist program there is one point that regulates the racial question. I, myself, had concerned myself with the racial question since the conclusion of the First World War, and I can now only honestly say the following. After the First World War I took a position against the extreme degree to which the Jewish population tried to participate in German life as a whole. I saw this extreme attitude manifested in the following. Beginning with the very first Soldiers' Councils there was hardly one in which there was not a Jew as a member. In the Revolution at that time the Jew took a leading and definitive role. In the reconstruction of the State that followed, again the Jew took a prominent part. In the entire political life of the Nation, in the economic life, in the financial world, in science, and in the cultural life and in the arts, a great number of the leading positions were occupied by Jews. This participation of the Jews, at that time, did not, to any degree, correspond to the proportion of Jews in the total German population. Nor was it ever my point of view that, for example, the Jews' participation in leading positions -- in all these various positions that I just mentioned -- should be regulated in accordance with the percentage of Jews in the total population. However, in Germany, the development was such that we could list numbers such as were also listed in my book -- numbers relating to the intellectual life and to the position that Jews occupied in the free professions. Perhaps, if you will let me have my book for a moment, I can read these numbers out to you.
A. Don't bother, Doctor. Continue.
A. Yes. In the company of many others I saw this development as an extremo attitude on the part of the Jews which I thought should be legally regulated the way any extreme position must be regulated. The reaction against this took place in political life and always does take place. The penetration of the Jews into all leading positions was interrupted by the advent of National Socialism. National Socialism -- and this I must mention here to make what I am going to say comprehensible -- was so stupid and nearsighted that it, in its turn, behaved as extremely as the Jews had previously behaved extremely.
after this legalization I mention that should take place in politics and in the nation as a whole, of course it had to happen that the extreme behavior of the national socialist must in its turn arouse as great a reaction as the previous extreme behavior of the Jews and this reaction actually did become formulated as law, namely with consequences that could not be foreseen and which I shall refrain from describing here but which everyone in this room is familiar with. My attitude toward the penetration of Jews in Germany did not rest in any way on a feeling of personal hatred toward the individual Jew. I had too many good friends among my Jewish colleagues to allow that to occur and who later, in the period after National Socialism came in, I assisted. If I had known that the Prosecution would take up this theme I could have provided myself with affidavits that would have exonerated me of any feeling of hatred towards Jews. I can assert about myself, justly, that I did not know the feeling of hatred at all, not towards groups of people and not towards individual persons. The word hatred is a word that does not exist in my dictionary. My purely objective observations were supplemented by studies of a purely scientific nature and here too I should like to express myself briefly and refer to the father of race hygiene, the Englishman, Francis Gordon, who lived from 1822 to 1911, and who is known in tho whole world as the creator of research into tho problem of twins. He is really the father of race hygiene. Gordon was then joined by well known Americans. I am not mentioning this because I want to make the Americans responsible for race hatred in Germany but only because this is a historical development which I must outline, in the interest of truth. In America.....
Q. Let us not concern ourselves now with the historical background of this particular subject. I will go on to a few quotations in your book and we will cover the ground much more rapidly. Now I note on page 25 of your book which is perhaps your first remark in connection with the Jews, in which you state that France, being then in the hands of the Jews, that is during the first world war, brought shame on civilization in that they promised negroes white German women and girls as a reward for bravery in battle. Now was the your only reason for saying that the Jews brought shame on civilization?
A. I never compared the Jews with the negroes. That is a quite different race.
Q. You said that the Jews brought shame on civilization because they -the Jews -- had promised white German women and girls as a reward for bravery in battle. Didn't you say that in your book?
A. It is a well known fact, which has been confirmed by negroe prisoner that they were promised white women as a reward after the victory. And to this I must say, quite openly and frankly, that I cannot by any means consider this just. I see in the mixing of two foreign races unhappiness for both races and Hadison Grant, an American, has particularly pointed out this fact in his book -- The Decline of the Great Races.
Q. And you were also of the opinion that the Jews were war profiteers, weren't you?
A. That the Jews were war profiteers I was not only of that opinion but I know it is a fact -- that is a historical fact.
Q. How have you ever made any anti-Semitic remarks, particularly in connection with the so-called unpolitical universities?
A. In my book I also dealt with the question of the universities and set down in my book to what a high degree German faculties were over-filled with Jews.
Q. I will have you read that section, Doctor, please -- the two section which are marked in red pencil. Read those two sections on page 85 which are marked in red pencil.
A. Well, first of all, it says here "Fresh Jewish kids who had avoided taking part in war, set the pace." Let me remark in this connection that this was not an invention on my part but that was observation on the part of most of the German population from the simple German laborer to the intellectual, and if I should write a biography and if I were a chronologist, then I should have to describe events in the way that they actually were at any one time. I now quote further: "Here it was that I first came to know of the socalled unpolitical universities. Far from realizing a new only one goal -to cultivate science for its own sake, whether Jews or Germans, whether front line soldiers or malingerers, -- in their life and in their activities there was not this difference.
For then there was only one thing -- to have an international reputation as great as possible. This attitude on the part of some of the universities was to be extended in the period that was to follow and was to produce the most strange consequences." This paragraph that I have just read -- I can only say of it that it is the pure truth so far as facts are concerned, but since this theme has been broached, please permit me to mention a few statistics in this connection.
Q. Just a moment, Doctor; before you mention those statistics turn to page 91.
A. 91, yes.
Q. I have marked there in red pencil where you speak of your deep hatred of the Jew. Kindly read that to the Tribunal.
A. "Under the motto 'Down with Capitalism' these Jewish characters paid homage to the owners of capital, otherwise they would not have been able to remain in the government. They were the frontline fighters for Jewry and helped the Jews to pass into foreign hands the last assets that the German people possessed. Whereas these groups, and I emphasize the words 'these groups; I despised because of their stupidity and lack of conscience, I, hated them also for their foreign nature which tried to assert itself within the German nation in order the better and the more effectively and the more destructively to exploit the German people. 'No More War' they cried to the people, reminded them of the horrors of the years just passed, but in secret they were in cahoots with the victors, with those who had run the blockade, and always conducted their dirty international deals, while the people, women, children, and old persons, starved by the ten thousands. When 200,000 milk cows were delivered and which, as I remember, took place in accordance with a provision of the Versailles Treaty and the doctors objected, a Jewish social democratic member of the Reichstag stated that this was a matter that did not concern the doctors at all." Let me remark in this connection the following What I have just read here is set down clearly in black and white. That was the situation in Germany at that time, unfortunately though the case may be.
As a historian I described the circumstances as they were, and I myself, as I thought was right at that time, opposed these matters which I thought I had to do as a decent German.
Q. You also approved of ill treatment of the Jews, didn't you? Yes or no?
A. There is nothing about mistreating Jews in my book, nor does my book even mention, let alone demand, mistreatment. I consider any form of mistreatment as abominable, whether it is Jews or someone else who is being mishandle. Mistreatment is always abominable. I have never preached such a doctrine, nor have I ever taken up any such things.
Q. Now on page 125 you blamed the Jews for being the main profiteers in the inflation, and you say that they received beatings from members of your circle, when they committed something of that kind. You further state, on page 128, in connection with the trial of a Jewish professor who had been beaten, you state that you were called as a witness in the trial which follow the beating of this Jewish professor, and that you refused to answer question put to you by this professor's Jewish defense counsel. Did you approve of the beating that was given to this Jewish professor by one of your friends?
A. I can say only the following to that, if the same thing should happen to me that happened to this man who beat this Jew I would have done the same. What happened to him was this: this man's fiance had been offended indecently by this officer, and whether this had been a Jewish professor or a German professor is of no consequence, but the man who indecently insulted my fiance will take a beating from me whether a Jew or a German.
Q. First of all, don't shout. The interpreter can hear you. Was this beating of such importance that it should appear in the autobiography of one Kurt Blome?
A. No, and I have already said in this connection, if I am writing and book, and it appears to a certain extent as historical, then I must adhere as to the truth about that period, otherwise I can't throw illumination on that period.
Q. All right. Tell us about the Jewish Minister of Foreign Affairs, Rathenau?
A. You mean Rathenau, the former Foreign Minister?
Q. That is right.
A. Kern and Fischer, members of Erhardt Brigade, murdered Rathenau. Rathenau was a Jew and was foreign minister. This assassination of Rathenau aroused great interest, not only in Germany, but in the entire World at that time, and in connection with this assassination I stated my views quite generally on political assassination, and said in my book verbatim, that in general the political assassination should be repudiated. My point of view expressed in my book was quite clearly negative.
Q. You and your friends were rather gleeful about the assassination of Rathenau; page 131 you state in connection with the assassination of Rathenau that you and your circle were not sorry Rathenau was no longer Foreign Minister, being that type of an International Jew. Actually, Doctor, you were an accessory after the fact to the assassination of Rathenau, were you not?
A. That is an assertion on your part for which you cannot offer any proof whatsoever. I was not an accessory to this murder, which can clearly be seen from my book, now should I like to say what you just quoted, you said I and my friends were gleeful that Rathenau was murdered.
There is no single word that says that in my book. We said we were not sorry that we no longer had a Jew as Foreign Minister, but the assertion that we were glad that a murder had taken place was a discussion which in no way corresponds with reality, nor is it set down in black and white in my book.
Q. On page 132, first of all, Doctor, do you know what an accessory after the fact is? I don't believe you do. We will go on. On page 132 in the following you elaborately described how the murders of Rathenau the two ment, Kern and Fischer, were protected and concealed by you and your friends; isn't that in the realm of an accessory after the fact of the murder of Rathenau?
A. No. That is quite clearly defined in the general German Penal Code. That means in the German Penal law, it means helping after the fact, and the maximum penalty for that is one year in prison. Therefore, the fact that I helped previous friends or comrades from the field and did not betray them, I could to be sure have been penalized with one year in prison but this has nothing to do with the planning or participation in a murder. The situation was as friends, I and my friends were at the time roughly 2$ years old. We were old comrades and old front line volunteers. If these two of my comrades actually committed such a crime, then in view of this situation at that time I really could not make up my mind to betray these comrades of mine and to turn them over to the police. The reason for this is undoubtedly to be found in the whole political and economic situation at that time. It was pretty chaotic. From this point of view and also in view of my youth and in view of the fact these were my comrades, and in view of the chaotic conditions at that time, this whole matter must be evaluated and appraised. I can say now that I am older and more mature, and if such a thing occurred now I should not have helped those people. I should have shown them the door, but again I don't believe I should have actually betrayed them. That is something that I did at that time, I described it quite openly in my book somewhere, and that is still my position today, and I can adhere to that position today, because that was no act that in any way had to do with motives affecting one's honor.
Q. Then the only connection you had with the assassination of Rathenau was merely that you and your friends concealed from the police the murders, is that it?
A. Yes, we hid them, and helped, them along. That was the only connection we had with the murder.
Q. Did you over attempt to commit all the jews to Jerusalem?
A. No.
Q. What was this little pro ram of your you mention on page 167, wherein you state you distributed to all Jews in night clubs tickets in the form of railroad tickets, third class, to Jerusalem one way, but not back?
A. This took place not only in Rostock, but these tickets were distributed throughout the whole country. They were interpreted and construed humorously, also by the Jews to some extent. That is, my assistant at the Rostock Dermatology Institute also thought this was quite a joke. In other words, this whole matter is in the field of humorous politics, and should not be taken to seriously.
Q. Would you tell us what organization the Stahlhelm was, that is spe S-t-a-h-l-h-s-l-m-? This was a Nationalistic organization, was it?
A. Yes, that was a Nationalistic Organization of previous front line soldiers under the leadership of Duesterberg and Seldte, and after the accessation of Nazis in 1933 this organization joined the NSDAP or joined the S.A.
Q. Why didn't you join that organization, Doctor?
A. I preferred to join another organization with clearer goals, because the Stahlhelm had no specific clear attitude toward the racial question.
Q. That is right. Therefore, because they didn't take a clear cut line on turn racial question you didn't become a member of this Nationalistic Organization, Stahlhelm?
That is right.
Q. Your racial hatred, a s I call it you. say it isn't that didn't end with the Jews either; you didn't have much use for the Free Masons, did you?
A. The Free Mason question is not a racial question. In the Free Mason lodges there were not only Jews, but non-jews and other races. The Free Mason problem was not a racial problem in the same way that the question we have just discussed was a racial question, but it can be seen from the Free Mason literature, the international lodges are to a largo extent under Jewish Leadership, and the customs and usages of the Free Masons lodges can be traced back to old Jewish customs. That is a historical fact.
Q. Now, Doctor, what was Ludendorff's Tannenberg-Bund?
A. Luddendorff's Tannenberg Bund was a nationalisitic organization which quite specifically took a point of view against the Free Masons publicly.
Q. You joined that organization, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you state as a reason for joining that organization that Ludendorff' s Tannenberg Bund was a racial fight against International Jewry, Free Masons, and so forth; what was your reason?
A. I didn't speak of any racial struggle. That was not a racial struggle. Rather Ludendorff defined his struggle as a fight against international powers. That is a historical fact again.
Q. What is your reason for being so opposed to the Free Masons?
A. I don't see why I shouldn't have been, because the role that the Free Mason lodges played was similar to that that the Jews played in Germany for that period.
Q Then, as you state on page 210, you were sharply against Free Masonry because of its connection with the Jews; is that right?
A Would you please repeat the question?
Q I said, you state on page 210 you were sharply against Free Masonary because of its connection with the Jews; is that right?
A I cannot remember that phraseology precisely, can you please show me the book?
Q Certainly, it is marked with a red pencil, Doctor. Read it out loud.
A I read aloud, "During my political activities in the years 1922 and 1923 I developed a sharp attitude against Free Masonry because of its connection with the Jews." That is true and corresponds with what I just said, that all the usage and origin of the Feee Mason lodges can be traced back to the Jews.
Q Now, in nearly every public speech you ever made, you delved into the racial questions at great length, didn't you?
A No, I really cannot say that every address of mine contained a lot about the racial question. Before the Nazis took over, I frequently spoke at political meetings, those were election campaigns for various elections; in other words elections to bo carried out according to preliamentary and democratic rules in which everyone could openly and freely state his opinion and that is what I did. In this connection I often said something about the racial question and said what my conviction was; that of course is true.
Q Well now on pg 253 of your book you speak about your public speeches and that your major program was the discussion of racial questions; now Doctor, did you Kurt Blome, write an autobiography? There are many more famous men in the dock, they did not write autobiographies; what was your reason for writing an autobiography which contains nothing of benefit to medicine?
A I should like to tell you that your assertion is not entirely correct. I don't believe that you could have road the book because if you had, then you would have seen that throughout the entire book like a red thread from the very first page on, there runs tho theme of the physician's problems, and then you would have to see that entire chapters of this book are devoted purely to medical matters and that in reality I expressed opinion on all medical matters and all matters which effected tho physicians in any way. Of course, wo could discuss tho question whether my point of view in this or that case was a good one and should be recognized, but that is a matter of opinion. Your assertion, however, that this entire book, and entire book, deals with racial political matters, is by no means true. When you ask me why I wrote an autobiography, lot mo tell you that I started with my eighteen years and an ending at tho ago of fifty and I think it is dishonest if anyone represses in an autobiography everything that does not have to do directly with medical matters; but that this book is basically orientated toward medical matters, that can readily be seen through the careful reading of the book. The title, after all, is "The Physician in War-Time." If your assumptions were really correct, then I should have entitled the book differently, something like tho old Nationalistic fighter, but it can be soon that my interest here is matters of medicine, matters of health and for that reason my title "The Physician in War-Time" is quite correct. You will also have to admit that from tho medical political thinking, you cannot differentiate the racial question from that train of thought. Any doctor, in the whole world would agree with me on this.
Q Now, Doctor, as I understand it, in 1938 your name appeared on tho list to be awarded the Golden Party Badge; your name was stricken from the list by Hitler, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q In 1943, five years latter you achieved tho Golden Party Badge; after five years you wore awarded the Golden Party Badge; weren't you?
A Yes, the next time the Golden Party Badge was awarded I received it. Of tho four whom Wagner recommended, only two were approved: thereupon Dr. Wagner objected and tho Fuehrer said that ho did not want any inflation in tho matter of awarding golden party badges. I myself was not personally acquainted with Hitler, as I said earlier, so I was one of those who was not approved and then the next award, which was ten years after tho Nazi's took power, I did receive tho badge.
Q The, you exclude tho possibility that I am correct in assuming that tho reason you wrote the book, which you. wrote similar to Hitler's "Mein Kampf", the "Physician's Mein Kampf" was to show Hitler what a good little Nazi you you wore and how you stood in tho Jewish question so that you could got tho covorted award; am I correct or am I wrong in that assumption?
A I can assure you that you are wrong in that assumption that it was necessary for me to do anything at all to prove that I was a good little Nazi that I was a convinced National Socialist was known to everyone who know mo or knew of my name. I should not have had to write such a book to prove it or to receive an award of a party badge.
Let mo assure You. that I think much too much of myself to achieve that goal by writing a book. If you had personally read my book, then you would also have read what I said about tho awarding of badges in general. Also let me say that a Golden Party Badge could in no way impress mo, in view of tho fact that I, as a young front lino soldier, had received the Knight's Cross with Crossed Swords and the Hohenzollern Badge and had tho badge for being wounded, so I did not have any need for that sort of party decoration.
Q Now, Doctor, you have testified here in direct examination that the restrictions based on Jewish physicians were originated by the Ministry of the Interior and that tho execution thereof was handled by tho Reichsaerztefuehrer; is that right?
A No, not in that form, nor do I believe that I said it in that form. The whole regulation of racial political questions of a legal nature was tho latter that concerned the Reichs Ministry of the Interior; tho intention in that clause or to carry them out was taken care of here for the various laws in question, then tho competent organizations of the party carried out tho law.
So, in my opinion, after the Ministry of the Interior had passed certain laws, tho implimented authority could only be tho Reich Chamber of Physicians, or tho Reichsgerztefuehrer or Dr. Grothe, those wore the channels as laid down by law and I cannot think of any other feasible way.
Q Well, then, tho execution or tho administrative handling, whatever you may call it, of these restrictions which were placed on Jewish physicians was handled by Conti's office in his position as Reichsgerztefuehrer; wasn't l
A Would you please repeat tho question, I did not quite understand it?
Q, I stated that tho execution and administrative handling of tho particular restrictions placed on Jewish physicians was handled by tho office of tho Reichsgerztefuhrer; is that right?
A No, not by tho office of tho Reichsaerztefuhrer, but by tho Reichs Physicians leader, who in turn discussed this question with Dr. Grothe, tho head of tho German Insurance Company and then settled this matter with him. Afterwards ho put me and some of my accomplices before tho accomplished fact, but had I boon asked before, I am sure I would have changed a number of things, but I don't think it is a question of debate here what I would have done.
Q Now, Doctor, this particular program against Jewish physicians, which I will admit or accept as tho result of the testimony of your witness, originated in tho Ministry of tho Interior and tho execution of plans thereof were handled by Conti's office in his capacity as Reichsarztefuehrer; now, isn't it ridiculous to say that a man like yourself, who has exhibited such a keen interest in this racial program, that you did not concern yourself with this planned treatment of Jewish physicians?
A No, it is not ridiculous at all, as you like to say. You may think it is, but had you known the situation as it existed with us, I am sure t you wouldn't consider it ridiculous at all. This is how it was: whenever any question regarding the settlement of Jewish physicians came up, the question of social insurance had to play a role. Every German who in any was employed and who couldn't dispose of a large amount of money was of necessity a member of a social insurance association, quite independent or whether he was a Jew or a non-Jew, a negro or a Japanese. In order to safeguard this social insurance, we had the social insurance companies in German Chief of which was Conti, and whose legal deputy in this sphere was Dr. Grothe. Now in connection with this activity of settling the problem of Jewish physicians, the settlement of the social insurance activity for the benefit of Jewish patients had to be discussed of necessity at the same time I was not at all surprised that Dr. Grothe was commissioned with doing that kind of work, who was the expert in that matter.
Q Now, Dr. Blome, according to your own testimony, you were active the SA until 1936, is that right?
A Yes, after 1936.
Q Now you formed these various medical units of the SA only in your County of Mecklenburg, is that right?
A Mecklenburg, yes. That's right.
Q You had nothing to do with the overall formation of medical units for the SA, is that right?
A No. In the year of 1936 to 1936, approximately over a year, I had been the group physician of the area Berlin-Brandenburg. I then resigned my office.
Q Now, do you -
A But there I already found organizations that had already been s up.
Q Well, now, do you recall the testimony of Professor Leibrandt which is on page 1973 of the official transcript wherein Professor Leigran said that on the 1st of April, 1933, he unfortunately was obliged to experience the greatest disgrace of the medical profession, in that he saw his Jewish colleagues pulled out of their beds in the morning and mistreated other medical men.
The medical men were in SA uniforms, weren't they?
A I heard that here. I heard this expressed by Mr. Leibbrandt? and if Mr. Leibbrandt testifies that under oath, I have no reason to doubt th correctness of that testimony. In that connection I can tell you that in year of 1933 when this happened I was living in Rostock and not in Berlin, and I can only state in that connection that in Mecklenburg no Jewish physician was taken out of his bed or in any way mistreated. At no time di I hear of it and certainly didn't cause any such action.
Q In 1936 you left your position in the Red Cross, and at that time Wagner selected you as the Chief of the Fuehrer School of German Physician at Altrese and Mecklenburg, is that right?
A No, not in that form. At first I didn't voluntarily leave the German Red Cross as I already said. Because of my -
Q Just a moment.
A -- practice I left the Red Cross.
Q Just a moment, Doctor. Let's not quibble over words now. In 193 that is when Wagner selected you as Chief of the German Physicians School Altrese in Mecklenburg, is that right?
A No, that is not right. I was never the Chief of the Fuehrer Schc at Altrese. The leader of that Fuehrer School was Dr. Deuschel.
Q What was your position in the Fuehrer School at Altrese?
A I had no position at all in the Fuehrer School of Altrese. In the framework of my entire tasks taking care of medical training and education Altrese was subordinate to me. It belonged to one of the organizations which was connected with the medical training and education.
Q What is this school that you were Chief of that you mentioned o direct examination at Altrese?
A I don't think I mentioned anything like that, and I certainly was not Chief of any school.
Q Do you mean to tell me on direct examination you didn't mention school in Altrese for young physicians of which you stated that only a small amount of the doctors went and not one of these defendants ever attended
A During my direct examination I stated that Altrese was under my charge. During my direct examination I stated that I was the only man ressible for the education, since Dr. Wagner is dead, and I furthermore state that I gladly bear that responsibility since whatever was taught and preach at Altrese was completely decent, orderly and medically ethical so that i need fear no attack from anywhere in medicine, and that is what I said ab this Fuehrer School in Altrese.
Q Well, all right, didn't you state in direct examination that this post-graduate study for physicians, that that duty was assigned to you by Wagner to control that educational group, and then you at great length mentioned the school at Altrese?
A Perhaps I could point out an error on your part. You are nixing two fundamental things. I was responsible for the German medical education which was given over to the German physicians as part of their duty on th basis of the law of 1935 by the Reich Chamber of Physicians. According that law, every physician in Germany apart from certain categories had to undergo a period of three weeks medical training every 5 years, and the Reich Chamber of Physicians bore the cost of that training.
Q Wait -
A That was the duty for five years. That had nothing to do with Altrese. This training was carried on at universities, at various large communal hospitals, hospitals of the various religious missions, Evangelic missions, Catholic missions. At any rate, it was carried on in such hospital which had good teaching material and also teachers. That had nothing whats ever to do with Altrese. That was the duty.
Q All right, what was the school at Altrese?
A The school at Altrese was a health political training course, me cal political training course for the so-called medical fuehrers and the medical fuehrer reserve. Furthermore, dentists were trained there, pharmacy and midwives.
Q Who had control over that school?
A The direct superior of the school was Dr. Rehse, and the supervision was exercised by me, and I also had to bear responsibility for the school.
Q Well, now, they the Fuehrer School of German Physicians at Altre in Mecklenburg was your responsibility?
A Yes, that is what I said on direct examination, but I may correct one other thing which you mentioned in your question. The participation in the so-called courses at Altrese where at the most one hundred twenty-eight people participated was completely voluntary.
Q I will get to that, Doctor. I will get to that. You wait till I ask you that question. Now Dr. Wagner gave you this job as supervisor of school at Altrese, is that right?
A If I had been the supervisory leader at Altrese, I would have had to be stationed there. For that purpose we had appointed a head for that school. Altrese belonged within my entire sphere of activities. I didn't live at Altrese. I held lectures there quite frequently.
Q Well, now then to clear a point up, it seems to concern you great that the Prosecution contends that attendance in this school at Altrese wa compulsory. Now you will recall that the Prosecution's witness, Professor Leibbrandt, testified that he was not sure whether or not this training wa compulsory, and he stated in fact that a number of young physicians whom h asked about that matter had told him that they were not in attendance at your school. Now, then, to clear a point up, you mentioned this post-graduate study of all doctors which did not take place at Altrese. Was that compulsory? This post-graduate study of all doctors in Germany that you mentioned earlier and you say is not to be confused with the courses given a Altrese, was that a compulsory course?
A Yes.
Q I see. Well, then did the medical students in attendance at the school of Altrese have to belong to Party organizations?