After foreigners had arrived in the camp it was tried by the German illegal camp administration to establish contact with various nationalities, and especially in my sphere of work at the hospital, where I worked with Dr. Hoven, where the center of this illegal camp organization really was, which went over the hospital entirely, I and other Dutchmen very soon established contact with leading inmates who without hardly saying a word used our services for the benefit of the organization.
Q. Were you a member of the later International Camp Committee?
A. Yes, only later. That was approximately a year and a half before our liberation. It was a very peculiar and, we realized at that time, a historical meeting place. Every nationality sent one representative, one so-called newspaper man, who all thereby formed an International Committee. It may be mentioned here that there were also two Germans present there who were leading political inmates. This committee was active until the very end, until the liberation, made improvements in the camp, and was divided into a political and military apparatus. You probably will know, on the basis of testimony by other people, that the concentration camp of Buchenwald more or less liberated itself a few hours before the arrival of the Americans. They themselves took prisoners of the SS people, and our troops used the weapons that had been smuggled into the camp, and the arms of the SS in meeting the American troops.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven collaborate with the legal camp administration as well as with the representative of the individual nations?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven resist measures of the SS?
A. Yes. I beg your pardon, Doctor, with reference to my first answer I should like to correct something. When I said yes it looks all inclusive, but a few words have to be added. Dr. Hoven collaborated with the political inmates in such a manner that he really formed a complete front with them. Certainly as far as I know never one word was exchanged between them, never one word was exchanged about any collabora tion in the sense that he was a member of the committee or anything like that; but when taking into consideration the situation as it prevailed at Buchenwald, this would really have been possible.
I mean conspiracy had become a necessity throughout Germany during the war and. it was hardly possible for two people to speak to one another freely, and this certainly was the case in Buchenwald. Buchenwald by reason of the SS there and the many criminals' and bad elements which could be found among the reds in Buchenwald, you have to take into consideration that not all reds were political prisoners in that sense. For instance, among the Dutchmen and Czechs there were a number of people who made black market activities and were in prison because of black market activities, and were then finally classed in Buchenwald as political inmates, inmates wearing the red chevron. What I really want to correct in my first answer is that I want you to understand the behavior of Dr. Hoven and his aid toward me and to everyone else who was in his close environment, and who were working in the close environment of the camp committee. It must be understood that one must say that Dr. Hoven purposely collaborated with us and belonged to our front.
Q. You furthermore answered the question in the affirmative when I asked you whether Dr. Hoven resisted the measures of the SS. Can you cite a few examples of this resistance to the Tribunal?
A. There are a number of examples here; for instance, Russians and Jews were not allowed to be admitted into the hospital and couldn't be cared for. It was only due to the aid and with the knowledge of Dr. Noven and perhaps because of Dr. Hoven, but that is something I can't tell exactly, because he always collaborated with the leading inmates. It is a fact that contrary to every other camp we managed to maintain a Jewish hospital illegally where sick Jews were cared for. This fact alone would suffice to kill Dr. Hoven had the SS known about any such situation. In the case of people who were beaten and were not allowed to be cared for, Dr. Hoven saw to it that an exception was made and saw to it that these people were cared for properly in the hospital. I must say, as a painter, I recollect the beautiful colors which were registered by these stick beatings on the human body.
I can testify to that personally. And answering your question, I could speak for a long time. The conditions in Buchenwald were of such a nature that everything that in any way smelled like an organization would be sufficient reason to have anyone hanged. It is remarkable how Dr. Hoven on many occasions faked, and as an example I may mention a certain Dr. De Laan, a Dutch hostage, who was released through the aid of Dr. Hoven, and as is confirmed by this doctor himself this was only possible by faking the X-ray of his healthy lungs and exchanging it with X-rays of lungs f people with sick lungs, who were already in a progress state of tuberculosis. I believe that these two examples will suffice to convince you how dangerous every step of Dr. Hoven was, exactly as was the case with every step of our political inmates.
Q. As to the collaboration of Dr. Hoven with the illegal camp administration; was it generally known in the concentration camp in Buchenwald?
A. Certainly not, that would have meant conspiracy. The concept of what I want to say would be contrary to the secrecy that was striven for and the concept of illegal camp administration.
Q. Is it true that a number of inmates were not fully informed and were doubtful as to the real attitude of Dr. Hoven with reference to the SS on one side and the inmates on the other?
A. I believe that only these persons who came into personal contact with Dr. Hoven; since as I repeat, there was an illegal camp administration and the whole situation was in the nature of a conspiracy. The collaboration of Dr. Hoven with this illegal camp administration was as a matter of course not a popular affair in the ca p. The only people who doubted Dr. Hoven, and I also belonged to that group of people, were persons who were surprised by the correct behavior of Dr. Hoven and were bewildered, not knowing what kind of a man no really was. This was so contrary to the normal beastly behavior of ail the other SS leaders. I think that you know that sufficiently yourself.
Q. What interests did Dr. Hoven in effect represent; were they the interests of the SS or the interests of the political inmates?
A. They were in every case the interests of the political inmates. Certainly he had to do that diplomatically or he would not have remained at his post very long. That was all too true in the case of leading inmates at Buchenwald. Naturally one could not always treat some of the prisoners with kid loves at all times, and naturally he had to do a number of things in order to satisfy the SS. As I am sitting here, I can state that Dr. Hoven was on our side.
Q. On what is your knowledge based?
A. You. want to say .... ?
Q. I am speaking about your knowledge.
A. Well I was in the exceptional position of having been in close contact with the Dutchmen who were in the camp when t here was not yet established an International committee and thereby was also in connection with the illegal camp administration on the other hand during all the period that I was in Buchenwald, with the exception of the time that Dr. Hoven was himself arrested by the SS, I was in daily contact with Dr. Hoven, so that I really belonged to one of the very few people who knew this matter from both sides.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven prevent, that members of the United Nations, especially French and Dutch citizens, from being transferred to Natzweiler in the Nacht and Nobel Action (Night and Fog Action)?
A. I am very glad t be in a position to answer this question with yes, because nan that not been the case I would not be sitting here right now. I am personally indebted to Dr. Hoven, I personally can thank him for my life, because he prevented this transport and he kept me from it.
I must tell you, and I cannot repeat it often enough, I did not come here merely because of my thanks to Dr. Hoven, I am only here for the reason of that he did in the camp, but I am really deviating from your question. Doctor, you were asking me to cite the few examples and I really started with mine. One moment, one moment, yes, what was your question, will you please repeat it?
Q. Did the defendant even prevent members of the United Nations, particularly French and Dutch citizens, from being transferred t Natzweiler during the Nacht and Nobel Nation there were some Frenchmen, some Dutchmen and a few Nowegians, Aryian persons, as the Germans used to say. There were a number of Dutchman were kept away from that transport by Dr. Hoven, since he managed to put them to work in Block 50 as indispensable experts in the field of typhus and if am telling you new that among these people there was an architect, a painter and a number of glassworkers, you will probably feel you will not be able to pay much attention to the standards of the science of the SS.
Q. Can you describe the journey to Berlin of Dr. Hoven in this matter?
A. Certainly. At that time I was outside of the camp painting a picture I was in Dr. Hoven's House painting a portrait of his smallest son, I think his name was Gregor.
His wife, Mrs. Hoven, was there too and I shall later tell you more about that in detail. At any rate, Dr. Hoven called me to him and said, "Herr Pieck, something is going on; you are on a very bad list. Be very careful, don't go back to the camp, I will see what I can do." I later locked at that list and it was a list of a number of Frenchmen, Dutchmen, etc., who were selected to be transferred to Natzweiler in the so-called Nacht und Nebel transport. All of those people worked in the detail of so-called Commandoes, as they were called in the, camp. These who would be considered for that transport, were transferred to Block 50, which was just being built, as specialists. Dr. Hoven selected these people for that station, which was so valuable for the SS. Dr. Hoven put these people on a list, which he took to Berlin and there ho carried out that all these people were excluded from that transport.
I believe that I can remember and it is very hard for me to remember, as my memory does not always catch up. I think that the first transport was delayed with the help of the inmates by various tactics, which were employed and with the aid of Dr. Hovon, for a period of over a half a year, That brought them ever the heavy winter period, which would have meant a certain death to these people who would have one to Natzweiler.
I would like to cite still another little example; when Dr. Hoven was on his motorbike, before leaving for Berlin, I approached hi and told him: "When will you be back, what will we do if somebody asks for us, then it will be too late because you won't be here?"
Dr. Hoven answered:
"You are sick. That applies to all the others, too. If necessary, just go to bed."
At any rate, I was registered as being sick, and I seem to remember that certain tuberculosis charts and things of that nature were prepared for my case, but I am not quite sure of that. Just leave that outside my testimony.
At any rate, it was quite certain that Dr. Hoven said, "Don't worry; you are all right."
Whenever anyone called for you or one of your people, that is, if you were asked for at the gate by order of the SS, usually it was always called out in the camp.
"Number 'so-andso' report to the gate," and if one didn't report to the gate quickly enough, then this in itself was a grave offense. Excuse me; I am mixing up my languages.
Dr. Hoven's advice to stay in bed and to wait until he came back was adhered t by me. That certainly was a matter, too, that would have brought about his death had it been found cut.
Q Who ordered these transports?
A The list had come from Berlin. I myself saw that list. It was a Keitel Decree.
Q Did the Defendant Hoven have anything to do with these transports in his capacity as camp physician?
A No, nothing at all. He just tried to frustrate the matter and to help as many people as possible.
Q Did the Defendant Hoven see to it that political inmates or members of the United Nations were released?
A Dr. Hoven managed to release a number of political inmates, mainly Germans, because there it was easiest, as I must assume, but that was also true in the case of foreigners, Czechs, Dutchmen. As far as I remember, there were only Dutchmen coming from the hostage group who had already left Buchenwald when I got there.
A very good acquaintance of mine, Baron von Freende, has to thank Dr. Hoven for his being put at liberty, and also Dr. van der Laan whom I have mentioned before.
I believe that there must be a number cf others. I believe so. I am not sure.
Q Did Dr. Hoven risk his life in order to save political inmates or alleviate their lot?
A I believe, Doctor, that this question is rather superfluous on the basis of what have already said. I think that you must have understood by now what enormous risks were taken by Dr. Hoven in order to improve our fate and in order to liberate political prisoners.
Q Are we concerned with individual cases or systematic support of the political inmates?
A If we were concerned with individual cases, even if it concerned only me, I certainly wouldn't have come here. For instance, Dr. Ding-he was later in charco of Block 50--excuse me; my German isn't good enough. What I wanted to say was Dr. Ding, under whose charge I later worked in Block 50 and under whom all Dutchmen were working who had been saved by Dr. Hoven, continuing Dr. Hoven's preparatory work, did much in order to help us. I must say that the only thing to do is to be grateful to a man like that. But don't forget that Dr. Ding--he is dead now and it is customary to speak only good of the dead, but I have no objection to making an exception here--when Germany was victorious on all fronts was a pig and later suddenly turned into a very amiable and kind person.
The entire camp was completely unknown to him in its working from a political point of view and from the point cf view cf the illegal camp administration. Later on, of course, when Germany's fate changed, Dr. Ding tried to be helpful towards his collaborators. I, therefore, repeat that I certainly wouldn't have come here if we hadn't here been concerned with a matter which went far beyond my personal gratitude.
Q When Dr. Hoven was arrested, were there still a number of Jewish inmates in Buchenwald?
AAre you talking about the liberation?
Q No, I am talking about the time Dr. Hoven was arrested.
A Yes, certainly.
Q What do you know about that? To what extent do these Jews thank their lives to Dy. Hoven?
A I am not quite sure about that. I am not very well informed about it. I knew about a few individual cases. For instance, I know how Dr. Hoven tried to hide Jews in nearly every corner in the camp, and I know from what I have been told that a few thousand Jews who were still in Buchenwald at that time have to thank Dr. Hoven for their remaining in Buchenwald, because he prevented a transport which was to be sent somewhere and which they were supposed to join.
Q Witness, I am now presenting to you the document NO-1063 which is Exhibit 328. This is concerned with the files of the search for war criminals in Amsterdam.
DR. GAWLIK: I don't know whether this document is available before the Tribunal, and I, therefore, have a number of English translations which I can submit to the Tribunal. May I be permitted to submit them to the Tribunal?
THE PRESIDENT: Submit them to the Tribunal. Hand them up, if you please.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, look at the pages 12 and 13. These are testimonies of De Wit and Hans Vandeling.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, that can be found on pages 11 and 12 of the English translation.
A Were you saying 11 and 13?
Q No, 12 and 13. The testimony of De Wit and Hans Vandeling are in contradiction with one another. Do Wit says, and I quote:
"The Department 46 was under the leadership of SS--Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Erwin Ding." It further says on page 13, witness:
"All experiments were under the leadership of Dr. Erwin Ding but with the direct assistance of the above-mentioned Arthur Dietsch."
If you continue to lo k at De Wit's testimony, you will find that Dr. Hoven is not at all mentioned in that testimony. Contrary to that, Vandeling -- his testimony can be found on page 13 of the German trans-lation and 12 of the English translation -- has stated that Dr. Hoven is responsible for the medical experiments which were carried out on the inmates in Block 46.
Q I quote again: This physician gave injections with typhus bacteria, as a result of which many died. The serum was produced in Block 50 under the supervision of SS physician, Dr. Plazza, end quote. Vandeling, on the other hand, doesn't mention Dr. Ding at all. Do you know Vandeling?
A I know both of them. I know them very well.
Q Will you please tell the Tribunal which one cf these two persons has more knowledge about the situation in Block 46 and 50, and which testimony is to be preferred?
A Well, the answer to that question is very simple, doctor. Both people arc very decent persons, no doubt about that, and I am sure that they both wrote in the best of faith. The difference is that De Wit who worked on Block 50 know exactly what the situation was in the camp from the beginning; until the liberation. I worked there too and can testify that this testimony made by De Witt is absolutely correct, but Vandeling, who is a very reliable person, can not be blamed although his testimony is completely ridiculous, ridiculous for any one who knows the subject. For instance, he says that the Block 50 was under the SS physician Dr. Plazza, and I am telling you now I can't remember, and I don't think it is possible that Dr. Plazza was ever in Block 50, it would be that he had already left Buchenwald for a long time before Block 50 had been activated and for that very good reason you can see in what light you have to look at this testimony of Dr. Vandeling. He spoke cf Dr. Hoven who was the man in charge of Block 46. Things like that were entirely possible in Buchenwald, however. This man Vcndeling is a student who worked in the clothing shop. That is a completely different detail which had nothing to do with the hospital, with Block 50 and Block 46. If I was not to be asked to testify about a certain detail leader cf various barracks leaders, or of the SS men who were working in the clothing shop, I am quite sure that I wouldn't be able to speak correctly about all cf these people whose names I only sometimes heard and whose faces are repeatedly mixed up. I would consider it quite normal if he would give quite valueless testimony under these circumstances. Therefore, this testimony made by Martinus De Witt is not only valuable because it is in compliance with the truth, but also because Martinus De Witt was in a position to bo acquainted with the situation as it was.
His testimony is correct and the testimony of Hans Vandeling is without any value.
Q Now, will you please look at the testimony of Van Leeuwarden. It can be founded on 13 of the German transition and page 12 of the English translation. Leeuwarden too stated that he had been injected with typhus by Dr. Hoven, and contrary to that is the testimony of De Witt to be found on page 12 of the German translation , page 11 of the English translation, and Von Dalen on page 15 of the German translation, page 13 of the English translation, and Johannes Rainier Robert on page 15 of the German translation and page 14 and 15 of the English translation. These last mentioned are three persons who have testified that Jr. Ding carried out these experiments and have not mentioned Dr. Hoven. Do you think it is possible that Leeuwarden exchanged Dr. Ding and Dr. Hoven?
A But may I say something else?
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, I object to any further questions being put to this witness whereby he is asking the witness to judge the affidavits. The witness is here to testify to fact and not act as a Judge in this case.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may state whether or not he is acquainted with the men who are mentioned in this exhibit and what opportunity the witness knows they had of observing matters concerning which they made their statement. The witness can not say whether - he can not testify as to whether or not they are telling the truth. That is a matter for the Tribunal, but he may state their opportunity of observation and what the witness knows of these opportunities of observation. The witness may also, of course, state any matters he knows about these matters from his own observation. He may testify to anything he knows himself.
THE WITNESS: Excuse me, may I ask a question.
DR. GAWLIK: You can't ask any questions.
THE WITNESS: Just a technical question. Would you please repeat the translation of that German since I don't quite get it on my earphones?
(The Interpreter gives the translation)
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q I am now submitting to you the testimony of Schalker, which can be found on pages 15 and 16 of the German translation and page 14 of the English copy. Do you know the witness Schalker?
A Yes.
Q What do you know about the witness Schalker?
A I know he is a very decent man. What else do you want to know?
Q Something about his personality.
A He is a. young man. I believe he is now exercising some kind of function in the Communist Party in Holland. I know nothing else about him.
Q What was the medical situation in the camp?
A The medical situation in the camp - do you mean matters connected with care and so forth?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President I am asking you for your decision whether I can ask the witness the following question:
The witness Schalker has said that because of insufficient nourishment the defendant Hoven had a large number of people lose consciousness and I want to ask the witness whether he is of the same opinion or a different opinion. May I ask that question?
JUDGE SEEKING: Counsel, so that you may understand the view of the Court about the extent to which you may examine concerning this document No. 1063, which has been received in evidence by the Court as not being wholly without probative value. Patently this witness can not state whether in his opinion any particular person whose statement appears in there was or was not telling the truth. What he mat do, if he knows, is to say that he knows that man of his personal knowledge; that he knows his general reputation for truth and veracity in that community and that from his knowledge and general reputation he would not believe him upon oath.
JUDGE SEBRING. (continued) Now th t would be a matter then for this Court t consider in weighin the weight t be attached to that particular affidavit. If he knows that affiant he might also be interrogated as to the duties or the position that that man occupied in the camp. And, if he knew, that might threw some light upon the opportunity for observation that that affiant had concerning the situation about which he related. Patently, on its face a man who was an occupant of a particular block r cell where certain experiments had been conducted, or who was an aide or trusty in that procedure, would be more in a position to testify correctly concerning the truth of what occurred there than someone who only incidentally was in the camp but who may have been far removed and have gained his knowledge only by what someone else told him. You understand the view of the Tribunal in that particular? It may be that the witness knows from his own knowledge, he may himself testify t that conditions existing in the particular spot or at the particular time talked about by the affiant to show that though he was there at the time he knew of his own knowledge that conditions did or did not exist. And, then it would be a question for this Tribunal to determine when it considerable of the evidence, whether it would give credence to the statement of this witness from the witness stand or credence to the statement made by the affiant here. Now, the situation is just as simple as that. You have three or four alternatives and so long as the direct examination keeps within th so limits you are within the limits of allowability. Now, that is all there is to it.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, counsel, it is true as stated by my brother Sebring that to witness may testify too t he knows some cf these men mentioned in the interrogation, and that their reputation in the community in which they live as men who tell th- truth is bad, he can also say if h- knows that he is acquainted with them, that he knows the reputation that they bear as truth tellers among their friends in the community in which they live, that their reputation is good.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Where did Schalker work in Buchenwald?
A. Just a minute please. Schalker... We arrived together, off the same transport, at Buchenwald. At first, Schalker worked on some bad detail, as was customary. I don't know exactly - street sweeping, read construction, or something out he was put in the Gustloff Works rather soon on some metal working detail. But he was also on the list - the NN list, and in order to keep him off the transport for the first time he was sent to - I don't knew the any more - some Junker factory in Central Germany. But that was not enough to keep him off the transport because he and another Dutchman together were called back by the SS and when he came back t the camp he was to be sent to Natzweiler. With the aid of the political prisoners, and certainly with the knowledge of Dr. Hoven, Schalker and his comrade were listed as sick and as in Block 46 as typhus patients, to avoid their being on transport. In the Block 46, Schalker stayed. Liter he was a nurse or he worked in the laboratory,, as a laboratory assistant until the liberation.
Q. Will you please read Schalker's testimony through once more?
A. I have not been able to find it yet. Can you please tell me the page?
Q. Page 15 and 16. Page 14 in the English.
A. Yes, here it is.
Q. And now, if you consider that Schalker was working on Block 46, does nothing strike you in this testimony of Schalker's? Just keep this fact in mind.
A The word supply?
Q No, please read on page 16 what Schalker says about the typhus block.
A The typhus block?
Q Yes. What does Schalker talk about? Does he talk about the typhus block?
A No, he did not say a word about it.
Q If Defendant Hoven had anything to do with the typhus block then could one assume that Schalker would have said something about that?
A I would assume so, yes.
Q What was the medical care which Dr. Hoven gave? Do you share the opinion of Schalker? Look at his testimony. Just tell us your opinion and the opinion of the political prisoners about the medical care.
A Well, the medical care in the camp, doctor, was, of course, not adequate. I do not know how many, I think there were about 2,000 beds, perhaps not even that many; that was only in the last period. But how many thousands of patients we had. And at the end, when the people came from Auschwitz and Grossrose, when the eastern front approached, then there was great misery in the camp.
Q Witness, we are not interested in the last period because the defendant Hoven was not there.
A Well, then, I can only say that the medical aid in the camp in the beginning was given only by laymen. Locksmiths carried out operations and amputations and appendectomies and all kinds of things. Of course there were very many victims but there was no other choice because the medical Bare available was absolutely inadequate. In my opinion it was one of the great things which Dr. Hoven did, that he had doctors who were forbidden under German law to give aid to their fellow prisoners, that he used these doctors in the hospital, not as doctors but he had them listed as nurses: and so he introduced a great improvement in the medical treatment in the camp. Of course the facilities were very limited and Dr. Hoven could not telegraph to Berlin for 3,000,000 marks to build a big hospital for his camp. Everyone can under stand that.
But it is my opinion that he did what was possible at the time under the circumstances.
Q Do you know that prisoners were killed with the knowledge of Dr. Hoven and in some cases were killed by Dr. Hoven?
A I believe so, yes. I was never present and it is, of course, difficult to say although as one learns of things because one has such a function I think I can say yes.
Q Did you write a letter to the head of the Second Section of the Dutch Ministry of Justice concerning these killings?
A. Yes.
Q When did you send this letter to the Dutch Ministry of Germany?
AAbout 2 months ago, 1½ or 2 months ago, I think it was 2 months.
Q Will you please tell the Tribunal what you said in your letter to the Dutch Ministry of Justice about these killings?
A I will read a small extract from it. It begins: "In this function I had the opportunity..." by "this function" I mean as a responsible man in the camp committee..."I had the opportunity to see the inner organization at Buchenwald and the organized resistance and sabotage and to learn more than my fellow prisoners. For reasons of conspiracy it was impossible for them to see and understand this enormous underground activity, what great improvement were given to our general situation, and the climax was our own liberation. In this heroic struggle the most reliable part of the prisoners were later included. Dr. Hoven helped us to realize the conditions in such a way that they left room only for the thought of conscious deliberate collaboration. In any case, all his actions were deliberate on our behalf against the Greens and often against the SS. Everyone who knows the situation must understand that these actions were very often rigorous and must be considered within the framework of war and life in the camp. The liquidation of many Greens and several SS spies within the camp may make Dr. Hoven, in the eyes of many people, a murderer. For me and for others who understand the situation, however, this makes him a soldier on our side who risked a great deal."
I believe this extract is what you want.
Q What persons signed this letter in addition to yourself?
A This letter was signed by Scogers, the City Councillor of Amsterdam and Mr. Dreering, Section Chief of the State Institute for War Documentation in the Hague, both people who wore in Buchenwald as long as I was. I should like to add that we were organized in Buchenwald by political groups. The representative of the catholics, Jan Robert, one of my good friends with whom I collaborated from the beginning in the hospital and later in Block 50, a man who had a parallel career in the camp to my own, everything with the personal aid of Dr. Hoven,--was also to sign this paper. When I asked him to do so he said "No, I will write a similar letter in English myself." But now I do not know whether this statement was ever sent in because, unfortunately, Jan Robert was killed about 6 weeks ago in an automobile accident. Otherwise I would not be here alone in this unusual position, as an ally in the defense of someone who belonged to the SS, out Jan Robert would have been here too.
Q What can you say about the number of these killings?
A I believe that isn't possible to give a correct answer. I would not trust myself to rive such an answer?
Q For what reason?
A I believe that is due to the element of conspiracy which surrounded those matters.
Q When was the Buchenwald Camp turned over to the United States Army?
A On the 11th of April, 1945.
Q What happened to the members of the SS who were in the camp?
A I have already said they were taken prisoner by the prisoners and turned over to the American Army.
Q And what happened to the Defendant Hoven?
A Hoven was outside of the camp. He was capture d by the American troops. I heard this, I did not see it myself. He was taken to the camp and a Jew named Cohen, and other prisoners, went to the Americans and made it clear to them that this was a mistake -- "That man is in SS uniform but he belongs to us." The prisoners worked for him and in Block 50 we took Dr. Hoven in and took care of him.
On the next day the Americans ordered us to turn him over and of course we put him in their hands.
Q What were the motives for which the Defendant Hoven collaborated with the illegal camp administration and with the representatives of the various nations?
A I believe there were various motives. Sometimes it was sympathy with certain people, we have to acknowledge that, but in general, motives on a level with the illegal camp administration of political prisoners, so to speak, in an anti-Fascist front.
Q Did the defendant Hoven cooperate with the Illegal Camp Adminitration or the representatives of the various nations for reasons of corruption?
A It is sometimes asserted by people who do not understand the situation well enough that Dr. Hoven had profit from the prisoners, perhaps in my case, for instance, I am a painter. I painted all of his family. On could say he exploited me. I don't say that the first place Dr. Hoven was a man who was willing to live and let live, and in the second place he had me make paintings and portraits for certain diplomatic purposes in. order to achieve something for the prisoners with high persons. So that I am absolutely opposed to the conception that Dr. Hoven helped persons for reasons of corruption. There is other proof for this. In Buchenwald, thanks to Dr. Hoven, I lead an en durable life, and I was a person from whom Dr. Hoven got something back. I was glad of this, but from most people he helped, for instance the glass blowers, or young people, who were sport teachers, and a Jewish architect whom he helped, Max Fuerster, from Frankfurt/Main. There were numerous people whom ho helped from whom he never got anything in exchange. That is my answer.
Q What do you know about the political attitude of Dr. Hoven toward the Nazis while he was camp physician?
A Unfortunately, I can not tell you anything about that. I believe that Dr. Hoven was an anti-Fascist, to judge by his actions, but the situation in Buchenwald id not permit it, and Dr. Hoven's strong point was diplomacy. That is another reason why we never got anything definite from him. But if you will permit me to tell a little story about the life around Dr. Hoven, I believe that will throw a little light on his personality, As I said, I was theoretically employed as a nurse in the camp. In the ROT I ha d a room where I lived along, in the beginning, and later with a few doctors, and I painted. I made oil paintings and drawings and I worked more or less freely. In 1942 Dr. Hoven had his wife and children brought t Buchenwald outside of the camp in the troop hospital, and Dr. Hoven took me out of the camp in a doctor's suit, and as it was possible he introduced me as a doctor there in the troop hospital, and they agave me a room as a work shop, as a studio.