THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct. The original should be submitted to Counsel, or photostatted copies, so it can be studied. There should also appear the purpose of any cross examination of this defendant in connection with this document. He could be asked if he had ever heard of it, but it should be clearly identified to him before that can be asked.
MR. HARDY: The purpose of this document, Your Honor, is to show that the Health Office, the Reich Health Office, in which the defendant Blome was Deputy to Reich Health London Conti, was involved and issued a decree concerning the abortion of Eastern female workers. That is my purpose in introducing it and in bringing this subject up to the defendant, to see if he has any knowledg of it in his capacity as Deputy.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you, this evening, submit the photostat or show the original to the Counsel and again make your offer in the morning?
MR. HARDY: I'll do that, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. Will you hand me the original of that, please.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, do you maintain that his thing you have handed up here is supposed to be some kind of a decree?
HR. HARDY: No, I maintain that this mentions a, decree issued by the Reich Health Office. You will note, Your Honor, on the next to the last page, the sentence in the second paragraph in the middle: "In this connection it must be mentioned that the decree of the Reich Chief for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) concerning the interruption of pregnancy on Eastern female workers is in general willingly complied with. Thus, in the district of Simmer out of 10 reported cases of pregnancy, 6 have been interrupted successfully." Now, my purpose in introducing this is to find out whether or not the Deputy of this office that issued the decree had any knowledge of it.
JUDGE SEBRING: What do you maintain this thing is?
MR. HARDY: I maintain this is fragments of a report. On the back of the first page you will note that it is an original captured document on certain stenciled paper of the office of an organization named Koblenz.
I will endeavor to get this photostatted or I will turn it over to defense counsel and he nay examine it this evening and we will go on with it tomorrow, Your Honor.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to something else so th t hr. Hardy can consider this other objection until tomorrow. I have just head that there is mention in this document about a report which was made by a certain "V.M." V.M., according to my knowledge, is the abbreviation form confidential agent belonging to the Security Service (SD) which was indicted as a criminal organization during the International Military Tribunal proceedings here in this very room, and it is a matter for the prosecution whether they want to rely on the report of a confidential agent belonging to a criminal organization. I, personally, would n t do that.
MR. HARDY: I have not comment, Your Honor.
WITNESS: Perhaps I can clear up this question and perhaps I can clear it up very quickly. In my opinion, this concurs absolutely with what I have said before when this fragmentary document was submitted to me. I said that those abortions were tolerated; that they were voluntary and, in my opinion, that is the best confirmation for what I have stated before and it says here, word for word: "Thus, in the area of Simmer, in the case of 10 pregnant women, 6 had been interrupted successfully." This shows quite clearly that we are concerned with voluntary abortions, for if they had been done by force, not only 6 would have boon interrupted, but all 10.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q We'll go into th t question later in detail.
Now, Wagner, your first superior, was Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer from 1934 until his death. Is that correct?
A. No, that is not quite correct. Dr. Wagner was never Reich Health Leader. The position of Reich Health Leader was only created after Wagner's death. Th a was in April, 1939. Up to that time there was no such position.
Q. Then, Dr. Wagner did not hold a position as Secretary of state for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that right?
A. Yes, that is right. This position was held by Ministerialdirecktor Dr. Guettgen up to eight days before the outbreak of the war. The Dr. Guettgen was relieved by Dr. Conti and this position was promoted to a position on the level of a Secretary of State.
Q. Well, then Dr. Conti succeeded Dr. Wagner only in that capacity of Reichsaerztefuehrer. Is that right?
A. Yes. Reich Physicians' Loader and Reich Leader of the Public Health Office of the NSDAP.
Q. That is not to be confused with Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer? I an talking now about Conti. When Conti succeeded Wagner, Wagner had only one position - Reichsaerzetefuehrer? Wagner was never Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. Is that right?
A. We, Wagner was never Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. The concept of Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer was only created after Wagner's death. Wagner was, first, Reichsaerzetefuehrer (Reich Physicians' Leader) -- that is, the head of the Reich Chamber of physicians, and secondly, he was the head of the Main Department for Public Health of the NSDAP. Thirdly, he was the head of the National Socialist Physicians' League. Wagner held no state position.
Q. All right, then Conti succeeded Wagner in all those capacities. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well the, it might be said th t after Conti took over office, Conti held only three positions, that is, three titles -- Reichsaerzetefuehrer, Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer and Secretary of State for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct, with the limitation that Conti didn't become Secretary of State in the Ministry of Interior immediately after Wagner's death but only in August, 1939 -- that is, a few months later, and, that furthermore, in 1932 Conti became the head of the civilian health system under the jurisdiction of Brandt. ((Transcript: 1932))
Q. Well then, Dr. Wagner and Dr. Conti were your superiors in your position as Deputy to each man. Isn't that right? You were Deputy first to Wagner and then you were Deputy to Conti?
A. No, that is not correct. I had not beeb Deputy Reichsaerztefuehrer before that. That was a position held by a certain Dr. Bertels.
Q. Well, the, you first title Deputy came when Conti took office. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. I see.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I am going on to the subject of euthanasia now and this might be a good breaking point.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(A Recess was taken until 0930 hours, 20 March 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on . 20 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and. this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants arc present in court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser, absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: Tho Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the Defendant Oberheuser, who is confined to the hospital on account of illness, under excuse from the Tribunal.
KURT BLOME -- Resumed
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, defense counsel for the Defendant Hovon has here in Nurnberg at the present time a witness named Pieck, who is from Holland And must return to Holland this afternoon. In order to hear this witness, I have agreed with defense counsel of Blome and for Hoven to put the witness on t 9:30 if it is agreeable with the court, and have Defendant Blome stand aside until such examination of this witness is completed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands that this arrangement is satisfactory to counsel for the Defendant Blome?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for Defendant Blome having agreed, the Tribunal approves the hearing of the witness on behalf of the Defendant Haven at this time.
The Defendant Blome will stand aside from the witness box until the testimony of the witness to he sworn is finished.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the Defendant Hoven): With the approval of the High Tribunal, I am calling the witness Henri Pieck.
THE PRESIDENT: What language does this witness speak, what language will he testify in?
DR. GAWLIK: When answering my questions the witness will speak German and when answering the questions of the prosecutor he will speak English.
TRE PRESIDENT: The Marshall will summon the witness H.C. Pieck.
Are the translators prepared to cover the situation that has been referre to, the witness answering German and English?
INTERPRETER (Rammler): Yes.
H.C. PIECK, a. witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. The Tribunal will administer the oath to you in the English language Repeat after me: I swear that the evidence that I shall give in this cause, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help mo God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
Counsel for the Defendant Hoven may proceed with the examination of the witness.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, your name is Henry Pieck, is that right?
A Yes.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born in Den Helde, in Holland, on the 19th of April, 1894.
Q What is your nationality?
A I am a Dutchman. I come from the Netherlands.
Q What is your profession at this time?
A I am an architect and a painter.
Q Would you shortly describe your career to the Tribunal?
A Yes. As I said before, I was born in Helde and was brought up there until I was 11 years old, as the son of a naval officer. After my father received his pension we went to The Hague where I started my studies. Afterwards I went to a private school where I studied art, and I later went to the academy at Amsterdam. I then painted and traveled. My present profession, which I have exercised for some time, is architect for our government. I take care of foreign exhibitions and things of that nature. I built part of the Economic Partition of the Dutch Pavillion at the Exhibition in New York and I am still working at this type of work.
Q When and for what reasons were you arrested by the Germans?
A I was arrented by the Germans on the 17th of June 1941, in The Hague, because of having printed illegal writings in my workroom.
Q Where were you imprisoned?
A I was first imprisoned at Scheveningen in the so-called cell barracks, later I was sent to the penitentiary where I stayed for a year. Afterwards I was sent for two days to Amersford and then for a year and a quarter I went to Buchenwald, where I stayed until the liberation.
Q When, exactly, did you go to the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A That was on the 2nd or 3rd of April, 1942.
Q What was your activity in the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
AAt first I was a street worker at Buchenwald, which was rather hard work.
I was later used as a male nurse in the hospital. With the aid of Dr. Hoven I took care f the sick but really did mostly painting there. I partly did scientific paintings and partly painted just as a painter would.
Q Who was head of the hospital?
A That was Dr. Hoven--DR. Waldemar Hoven.
Q Do you recognize Dr. Hoven among the persons in the defendant box?
A Yes, certainly. He is the fourth man in the last row looking from the righthand side.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the fact that the witness correctly identified the Defendant Hoven in the dock. BY DR. GaWLIK:
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q What kind of prisoners were there in the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A There were a number of prisoners. Firstly, the most important group were the political prisoners; then there were criminal prisoners; then there were people who were loafers; then there were homosexuals; and then there were prisoners of war. Naturally there were Jews--they were a group in themselves. I am new going by their different designations.
Q What prisoners were designated as professional criminals?
A These were the criminal prisoners who had green badges.
Q What chevron did the political prisoners have?
A They had red chevrons but there was a little difference later because later allied political prisoners came over who also had red chevrons but with the addition of another letter which designated the country to which they belonged.
Q What kind of prisoners were the non-German prisoners, especially the members of the United Nations?
A They were mostly political prisoners. They all wore red angles, and then there were the prisoners of war.
Q What was the attitude of Defendant Hoven towards the prisoners?
A It was very favorable.
Q Can you state examples which illustrate the attitude of the Defendant Haven towards the inmates?
A Yes, I think I could cite a large number cf examples, and it is hard f or me to choose them. If you will permit me to look at some cf my notes I shall be able to give you a short report. For instance, the SS in the camp treated the inmates very roughly and it was always the case that whenever any such SS men entered any room an inmate had to call attention in a very German fashion. Everybody stock at attention very quickly until the so-called fuehrer said that they could relax now. This kind of business was never appreciated by Dr. Hoven. For instance, it was customary that an inmate would walk through the camp with an SS man and this "leader" always insisted that the inmate walk five steps behind the SS man, with his hand on his cap and the other hand near his leg. On the other hand, I often walked with Dr. Hoven through the camp and he always addressed me as Herr Pieck and he always said, "Don't be silly, keep your hat on." This is just a small example which is characteristic of him. I am just now speaking only about his behavior and I think we will later have an opportunity to speak about other details.
I would like to tell you about yet another example. When I arrived at the camp I was not allowed to write any letters, and I was not permitted to write to my wife who did not know I had gone to Buchenwald. After having established contact with Dr. Hoven after one month in the camp, and after having told him about that situation, he took me along to his scale and weighed me there. I weighed something like 75 kilograms, upon which he filled out an official form where it stated that my weight was 75 kilograms and that I was in a very good condition. After that he wrote to my wife, unofficially, saying the following: "In answer to your inquiry", and I again repeat that there was not an inquiry because my wife did not know I was in Buchenwald, "I am sending you this form." A few weeks later Dr. Hoven even went so far as to personally write to my wife when he was outside camp, he had the address from me, of course, writing to her as an old friend. In this letter he asked my wife to wrap shoes, clothes and many other things in a parcel and send them to his address.
My wife understood that there was some intrigue going on and naturally immediately answered, and just as a good old acquaintance would act, Dr. Hoven wrote a letter to my wife. Then Dr. Hoven again received a letter from her and showed me this letter from my wife where she wrote about my five children and about her own situation, and he also handed me all the things that she had sent him.
I am not sitting here, however, because I owe so much to Dr. Hoven personally. I am here because it is my opinion that the entire camp of Buchenwald is indebted to Dr. Hoven enormously.
Q In addition to the SS and Gestapo camp administration was there any illegal camp administration in Buchenwald?
A Yes.
Q Were you a member of this illegal camp administration?
A Really no. If you are speaking cf this illegal camp administration you have to consider that when we came to Buchenwald in the year 1942, the illegal camp administration consisted of only Germans, people who had been arrested after 1933 and who had already had more than 10 years of imprisonment behind them. They were the ones who had set up this illegal camp administration. The name "illegal" of course would not be necessary if it would not be true that there were only very few people in the camp who know about the existence of such an illegal camp administration.
After foreigners had arrived in the camp it was tried by the German illegal camp administration to establish contact with various nationalities, and especially in my sphere of work at the hospital, where I worked with Dr. Hoven, where the center of this illegal camp organization really was, which went over the hospital entirely, I and other Dutchmen very soon established contact with leading inmates who without hardly saying a word used our services for the benefit of the organization.
Q. Were you a member of the later International Camp Committee?
A. Yes, only later. That was approximately a year and a half before our liberation. It was a very peculiar and, we realized at that time, a historical meeting place. Every nationality sent one representative, one so-called newspaper man, who all thereby formed an International Committee. It may be mentioned here that there were also two Germans present there who were leading political inmates. This committee was active until the very end, until the liberation, made improvements in the camp, and was divided into a political and military apparatus. You probably will know, on the basis of testimony by other people, that the concentration camp of Buchenwald more or less liberated itself a few hours before the arrival of the Americans. They themselves took prisoners of the SS people, and our troops used the weapons that had been smuggled into the camp, and the arms of the SS in meeting the American troops.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven collaborate with the legal camp administration as well as with the representative of the individual nations?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven resist measures of the SS?
A. Yes. I beg your pardon, Doctor, with reference to my first answer I should like to correct something. When I said yes it looks all inclusive, but a few words have to be added. Dr. Hoven collaborated with the political inmates in such a manner that he really formed a complete front with them. Certainly as far as I know never one word was exchanged between them, never one word was exchanged about any collabora tion in the sense that he was a member of the committee or anything like that; but when taking into consideration the situation as it prevailed at Buchenwald, this would really have been possible.
I mean conspiracy had become a necessity throughout Germany during the war and. it was hardly possible for two people to speak to one another freely, and this certainly was the case in Buchenwald. Buchenwald by reason of the SS there and the many criminals' and bad elements which could be found among the reds in Buchenwald, you have to take into consideration that not all reds were political prisoners in that sense. For instance, among the Dutchmen and Czechs there were a number of people who made black market activities and were in prison because of black market activities, and were then finally classed in Buchenwald as political inmates, inmates wearing the red chevron. What I really want to correct in my first answer is that I want you to understand the behavior of Dr. Hoven and his aid toward me and to everyone else who was in his close environment, and who were working in the close environment of the camp committee. It must be understood that one must say that Dr. Hoven purposely collaborated with us and belonged to our front.
Q. You furthermore answered the question in the affirmative when I asked you whether Dr. Hoven resisted the measures of the SS. Can you cite a few examples of this resistance to the Tribunal?
A. There are a number of examples here; for instance, Russians and Jews were not allowed to be admitted into the hospital and couldn't be cared for. It was only due to the aid and with the knowledge of Dr. Noven and perhaps because of Dr. Hoven, but that is something I can't tell exactly, because he always collaborated with the leading inmates. It is a fact that contrary to every other camp we managed to maintain a Jewish hospital illegally where sick Jews were cared for. This fact alone would suffice to kill Dr. Hoven had the SS known about any such situation. In the case of people who were beaten and were not allowed to be cared for, Dr. Hoven saw to it that an exception was made and saw to it that these people were cared for properly in the hospital. I must say, as a painter, I recollect the beautiful colors which were registered by these stick beatings on the human body.
I can testify to that personally. And answering your question, I could speak for a long time. The conditions in Buchenwald were of such a nature that everything that in any way smelled like an organization would be sufficient reason to have anyone hanged. It is remarkable how Dr. Hoven on many occasions faked, and as an example I may mention a certain Dr. De Laan, a Dutch hostage, who was released through the aid of Dr. Hoven, and as is confirmed by this doctor himself this was only possible by faking the X-ray of his healthy lungs and exchanging it with X-rays of lungs f people with sick lungs, who were already in a progress state of tuberculosis. I believe that these two examples will suffice to convince you how dangerous every step of Dr. Hoven was, exactly as was the case with every step of our political inmates.
Q. As to the collaboration of Dr. Hoven with the illegal camp administration; was it generally known in the concentration camp in Buchenwald?
A. Certainly not, that would have meant conspiracy. The concept of what I want to say would be contrary to the secrecy that was striven for and the concept of illegal camp administration.
Q. Is it true that a number of inmates were not fully informed and were doubtful as to the real attitude of Dr. Hoven with reference to the SS on one side and the inmates on the other?
A. I believe that only these persons who came into personal contact with Dr. Hoven; since as I repeat, there was an illegal camp administration and the whole situation was in the nature of a conspiracy. The collaboration of Dr. Hoven with this illegal camp administration was as a matter of course not a popular affair in the ca p. The only people who doubted Dr. Hoven, and I also belonged to that group of people, were persons who were surprised by the correct behavior of Dr. Hoven and were bewildered, not knowing what kind of a man no really was. This was so contrary to the normal beastly behavior of ail the other SS leaders. I think that you know that sufficiently yourself.
Q. What interests did Dr. Hoven in effect represent; were they the interests of the SS or the interests of the political inmates?
A. They were in every case the interests of the political inmates. Certainly he had to do that diplomatically or he would not have remained at his post very long. That was all too true in the case of leading inmates at Buchenwald. Naturally one could not always treat some of the prisoners with kid loves at all times, and naturally he had to do a number of things in order to satisfy the SS. As I am sitting here, I can state that Dr. Hoven was on our side.
Q. On what is your knowledge based?
A. You. want to say .... ?
Q. I am speaking about your knowledge.
A. Well I was in the exceptional position of having been in close contact with the Dutchmen who were in the camp when t here was not yet established an International committee and thereby was also in connection with the illegal camp administration on the other hand during all the period that I was in Buchenwald, with the exception of the time that Dr. Hoven was himself arrested by the SS, I was in daily contact with Dr. Hoven, so that I really belonged to one of the very few people who knew this matter from both sides.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven prevent, that members of the United Nations, especially French and Dutch citizens, from being transferred to Natzweiler in the Nacht and Nobel Action (Night and Fog Action)?
A. I am very glad t be in a position to answer this question with yes, because nan that not been the case I would not be sitting here right now. I am personally indebted to Dr. Hoven, I personally can thank him for my life, because he prevented this transport and he kept me from it.
I must tell you, and I cannot repeat it often enough, I did not come here merely because of my thanks to Dr. Hoven, I am only here for the reason of that he did in the camp, but I am really deviating from your question. Doctor, you were asking me to cite the few examples and I really started with mine. One moment, one moment, yes, what was your question, will you please repeat it?
Q. Did the defendant even prevent members of the United Nations, particularly French and Dutch citizens, from being transferred t Natzweiler during the Nacht and Nobel Nation there were some Frenchmen, some Dutchmen and a few Nowegians, Aryian persons, as the Germans used to say. There were a number of Dutchman were kept away from that transport by Dr. Hoven, since he managed to put them to work in Block 50 as indispensable experts in the field of typhus and if am telling you new that among these people there was an architect, a painter and a number of glassworkers, you will probably feel you will not be able to pay much attention to the standards of the science of the SS.
Q. Can you describe the journey to Berlin of Dr. Hoven in this matter?
A. Certainly. At that time I was outside of the camp painting a picture I was in Dr. Hoven's House painting a portrait of his smallest son, I think his name was Gregor.
His wife, Mrs. Hoven, was there too and I shall later tell you more about that in detail. At any rate, Dr. Hoven called me to him and said, "Herr Pieck, something is going on; you are on a very bad list. Be very careful, don't go back to the camp, I will see what I can do." I later locked at that list and it was a list of a number of Frenchmen, Dutchmen, etc., who were selected to be transferred to Natzweiler in the so-called Nacht und Nebel transport. All of those people worked in the detail of so-called Commandoes, as they were called in the, camp. These who would be considered for that transport, were transferred to Block 50, which was just being built, as specialists. Dr. Hoven selected these people for that station, which was so valuable for the SS. Dr. Hoven put these people on a list, which he took to Berlin and there ho carried out that all these people were excluded from that transport.
I believe that I can remember and it is very hard for me to remember, as my memory does not always catch up. I think that the first transport was delayed with the help of the inmates by various tactics, which were employed and with the aid of Dr. Hovon, for a period of over a half a year, That brought them ever the heavy winter period, which would have meant a certain death to these people who would have one to Natzweiler.
I would like to cite still another little example; when Dr. Hoven was on his motorbike, before leaving for Berlin, I approached hi and told him: "When will you be back, what will we do if somebody asks for us, then it will be too late because you won't be here?"
Dr. Hoven answered:
"You are sick. That applies to all the others, too. If necessary, just go to bed."
At any rate, I was registered as being sick, and I seem to remember that certain tuberculosis charts and things of that nature were prepared for my case, but I am not quite sure of that. Just leave that outside my testimony.
At any rate, it was quite certain that Dr. Hoven said, "Don't worry; you are all right."
Whenever anyone called for you or one of your people, that is, if you were asked for at the gate by order of the SS, usually it was always called out in the camp.
"Number 'so-andso' report to the gate," and if one didn't report to the gate quickly enough, then this in itself was a grave offense. Excuse me; I am mixing up my languages.
Dr. Hoven's advice to stay in bed and to wait until he came back was adhered t by me. That certainly was a matter, too, that would have brought about his death had it been found cut.
Q Who ordered these transports?
A The list had come from Berlin. I myself saw that list. It was a Keitel Decree.
Q Did the Defendant Hoven have anything to do with these transports in his capacity as camp physician?
A No, nothing at all. He just tried to frustrate the matter and to help as many people as possible.
Q Did the Defendant Hoven see to it that political inmates or members of the United Nations were released?
A Dr. Hoven managed to release a number of political inmates, mainly Germans, because there it was easiest, as I must assume, but that was also true in the case of foreigners, Czechs, Dutchmen. As far as I remember, there were only Dutchmen coming from the hostage group who had already left Buchenwald when I got there.
A very good acquaintance of mine, Baron von Freende, has to thank Dr. Hoven for his being put at liberty, and also Dr. van der Laan whom I have mentioned before.
I believe that there must be a number cf others. I believe so. I am not sure.
Q Did Dr. Hoven risk his life in order to save political inmates or alleviate their lot?
A I believe, Doctor, that this question is rather superfluous on the basis of what have already said. I think that you must have understood by now what enormous risks were taken by Dr. Hoven in order to improve our fate and in order to liberate political prisoners.
Q Are we concerned with individual cases or systematic support of the political inmates?
A If we were concerned with individual cases, even if it concerned only me, I certainly wouldn't have come here. For instance, Dr. Ding-he was later in charco of Block 50--excuse me; my German isn't good enough. What I wanted to say was Dr. Ding, under whose charge I later worked in Block 50 and under whom all Dutchmen were working who had been saved by Dr. Hoven, continuing Dr. Hoven's preparatory work, did much in order to help us. I must say that the only thing to do is to be grateful to a man like that. But don't forget that Dr. Ding--he is dead now and it is customary to speak only good of the dead, but I have no objection to making an exception here--when Germany was victorious on all fronts was a pig and later suddenly turned into a very amiable and kind person.
The entire camp was completely unknown to him in its working from a political point of view and from the point cf view cf the illegal camp administration. Later on, of course, when Germany's fate changed, Dr. Ding tried to be helpful towards his collaborators. I, therefore, repeat that I certainly wouldn't have come here if we hadn't here been concerned with a matter which went far beyond my personal gratitude.
Q When Dr. Hoven was arrested, were there still a number of Jewish inmates in Buchenwald?
AAre you talking about the liberation?
Q No, I am talking about the time Dr. Hoven was arrested.
A Yes, certainly.
Q What do you know about that? To what extent do these Jews thank their lives to Dy. Hoven?
A I am not quite sure about that. I am not very well informed about it. I knew about a few individual cases. For instance, I know how Dr. Hoven tried to hide Jews in nearly every corner in the camp, and I know from what I have been told that a few thousand Jews who were still in Buchenwald at that time have to thank Dr. Hoven for their remaining in Buchenwald, because he prevented a transport which was to be sent somewhere and which they were supposed to join.
Q Witness, I am now presenting to you the document NO-1063 which is Exhibit 328. This is concerned with the files of the search for war criminals in Amsterdam.
DR. GAWLIK: I don't know whether this document is available before the Tribunal, and I, therefore, have a number of English translations which I can submit to the Tribunal. May I be permitted to submit them to the Tribunal?
THE PRESIDENT: Submit them to the Tribunal. Hand them up, if you please.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, look at the pages 12 and 13. These are testimonies of De Wit and Hans Vandeling.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, that can be found on pages 11 and 12 of the English translation.
A Were you saying 11 and 13?
Q No, 12 and 13. The testimony of De Wit and Hans Vandeling are in contradiction with one another. Do Wit says, and I quote:
"The Department 46 was under the leadership of SS--Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Erwin Ding." It further says on page 13, witness:
"All experiments were under the leadership of Dr. Erwin Ding but with the direct assistance of the above-mentioned Arthur Dietsch."
If you continue to lo k at De Wit's testimony, you will find that Dr. Hoven is not at all mentioned in that testimony. Contrary to that, Vandeling -- his testimony can be found on page 13 of the German trans-lation and 12 of the English translation -- has stated that Dr. Hoven is responsible for the medical experiments which were carried out on the inmates in Block 46.
