Q Moving the chamber form the Camp was not your Job?
A No.
Q What was the reason that you acted over and beyond your orders?
A I did everything I could to get Rascher's promise to move the chamber, although, he didn't want to give that consent and it is quite clear that I stayed until the very last moment, until I was absolutely sure that the chamber was going to be moved from Dachau. That was the reason why I stayed there.
Q. What was the lowest decoration for a soldier in Germany during the war?
A. So far as I knew, it was the War Merit Cross, 2nd Class.
Q. And what was the lowest decoration for a civilian?
A. Also the War Merit Cross, 2nd Class.
Q. And what Decoration did you receive?
A. The War Merit Cross, 2nd Class.
Q. You were present at the Nurnberg Cold Conference?
A. Yes.
Q. If you realized that concentration camp inmates had been used in the freezing experiments, why did you not raise an objection at this conference?
A. I saw at this conference that the experiments had been carried out on official orders. I had already clearly expressed my personal opinion of these experiments before. Ruff had passed this information on. And at the Nurnberg Conference there were much higher offices or ranks represented, who in part may also have realized it. I know, for example from what Dr. Alexander has said that many of them realized this, out that they said nothing. My position during this whole time was so weak, on the one hand, because of the refusal to Rascher and Himmler, and on the other hand it was quite clears so that I really saw no reason for my raising an objection at this Nurnberg conference.
DR. VORWERK: Mr. President I have no further questions .
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has several questions to propound to the witness.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Dr. Romberg, as I understand your testimony, you and Dr. Ruff, were ordered to Dachau to collaborate with Dr. Rascher in a series of tests to determine the possibilities of rescue of high altitude?
A Yes.
Q And while you were there you were actually under the command of Dr. Rascher?
A I was not under Rascher's command as a Stabsartz in the Luftwaffe. I was under the command really of the camp commander while I was in the camp.
Q But so far as the experiments themselves were concerned and the control over the low pressure chamber, Dr, Rascher had responsibility in that particular, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Before you and Dr, Ruff what to Dachau to perform your experiments had similar tests been made by the German Luftwaffe or for the benefit of the German Luftwaffe?
A You mean similar experiments?
Q Yes.
A Yes, in the DVL we carried out similar experiments, and at other institutes also, working for the Luftwaffe similar experiments were carried out.
Q In others words, the experiments that had been carried out prior to that time did not differ from the experiments that you carried out at Dachau?
A This was a continuation of an experimental series which was already under way and as is always the case in experimental series, differed from preceding experiments changing the conditions increasing the altitude the cold, etc.
Q Just what were your attempting to determine in the Dachau experiments that had already been determined or ascertain by your previous tests?
A The main task was to investigate rescue at heights as great as 20 kilometers to find out whether rescue of airplane crews is possible at such a high altitude at all.
Theretofore it had been ascertained that the crew survives the explosive decompression which occurs at such an altitude when the pressure cabin develops a leak, and now we wanted to find out whether the person could be brought safely to earth from this altitude.
Q. Who gave the order for you and Ruff to conduct these experiments?
A That was arranged by Ruff in his talk with Professor Hippke, the Medical Chief.
Q. Was the order a written or an oral order?
A. So far as I know, it was an oral order of Professor Hippke.
Q. From whom did you learn this fact?
A. From Dr. Ruff.
Q. Before going to Dachau, did you or Ruff discuss your assignment with anyone-other, of course, than the discussion that you said you had with Weltz in Berlin in December 1941 or January 1942?
A. After the discussion that Ruff had first with Weltz and then with me, Ruff went to Hippke and got his approval, and the next discussion took place with Weltz in Munich.
Q. In other words, at the time that you and Ruff had the discussion with Dr. Weltz, the approval for those experiments or the tests at Dachau had not yet been approved by Hippke?
A. Yes, when Weltz came to Berlin for this discussion and discussed this problem with Ruff he had already told him that in the summer of 1941 Hippke had given his approval on principle for such experiments and that Hippke, along with Kettenhoff and Rascher, had discussed the question of these experiments.
Q. Now, who did you understand that Hippke had given the approval to that Weltz told you about -- to Rascher?
A. Just what took place in detail at these conferences I can't say because I wasn't present; it was a discussion in which Professor Weltz, Kottenhoff, and Rascher talked with Hippke about the experiments, and at this discussion Hippke gave his approval on principle.
Q. Then, after the Weltz conference, as I understand it, Dr. Ruff went to Hippke, to confirm the approval and to get actual approval of your test team, Ruff and Romberg, and he came back and reported that fact to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Then later, in January or February 1942, you and Ruff went to Munich and had a conference with Weltz and some other gentlemen?
A. That is right, yes.
Q. After Ruff returned from getting his approval from Hippke, but before you and Ruff had your conference with Weltz in Munich in January or February 1942, with whom did you discuss this assignment?
A. Only with Dr. Ruff.
Q. You are quite confident, then, that neither you nor Ruff discussed this assignment with anyone else prior to that Munich meeting?
A. I certainly didn't talk about it, and Ruff only talked about it to Weltz on the occasion of that first visit in Berlin.
Q. Was the reason for that the fact that was a more or less secret or confidential assignment?
A. It was an experimental series, involving experiments at high altitude, in this case up to 20 kilometers, so that a technical development was apparent from the problem as given. New all experiments in which the subject of the assignment or the title of the report shows a technical development of the planning of a technical development of some sort, were always secret; in fact, they were top secret.
Q. In the tests that had been conducted by you and Ruff, prior to your going to Dachau, can you state how many experimental subjects had been used?
A. The experiments in our institute -- I know most about them -- for the first experiments in parachute descents from 12 kilometers, we used six or seven experimental subjects; for the explosive decompression we used just about everyone available at our institute, namely about eight at the most.
Q. Now, before you would begin an experiment of that kind, the ones you conducted in Berlin, I suppose that it would be an important thing to know something about the physical health of your experimental subject prior to the time you begin; would that not be true?
A. In our Berlin experiments, we did not give the experimental subjects a physical examination everytime. We know the men, because they were almost always the same people. On the other hand, sick people, people for instance with a heart defect, were not among them; therefore, a special examination was not necessary.
Q. In other words, these men at Berlin, I take it, were men in the air force; and you had the personal data on them; you knew their names, their ranks, their age, their heart condition, their blood pressure, perhaps the condition of their other vital organs.
They had. had to undergo a complete physical examination, as a matter of fact, before they were ever admitted into the air force, is that not correct?
A. No, that is not quite correct, because we were a civilian institute and the experimental subjects were ourselves, our own associates. I was the experimental subject, let us say, for an experiment of Ruff, and our mechanic Fohlmeister, whose book has been submitted here, was frequently a subject in experiments, and other associates of mine were also experimental subjects. None of these were members of the Luftwaffe, but civilians whom we knew personally, but not in such great detail as would result from reading a report on an army physical examination.
Q. Well, they had undergone physical examinations of one sort or another, had they not?
A. Well, we asked our associates whether they were in good health, whether they had a heart defect, etc., but we did not give them a real physical examination, such as was given to determine physical fitness for the air force.
Q. How would they know they were in good physical health? Suppose that I, for example, presented myself to you for an examination and said that I was in good physical health. It wouldn't necessarily follow that that would be a true statement of fact unless you knew something about my heart condition, my blood pressure, and the like, would it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then I suppose that when a test was run every day in your Berlin tests you night run one test or two tests, perhaps something of that sort?
-- then in order to accumulate your scientific data or your final analysis and reports, I assume that you would have a card for the experimental subjects; "A", lot us assume, and on that you would set out your findings as to "A" in a particular experiment of a designated kind, conducted at a certain time, and you would show the result of that test, all on the one card; is that correct?
A. We did not have a special card for every experimental subject, but entered this data in a record book. Supervision of their state of health were undertaken at regular intervals, not in connection with the specific experiment, but we took x-rays, an electro-cardiogram, and in this way kept an eye on their over-all state of health.
Q. Precisely. Then, when you would finish with an experiment, perhaps you would have had lot us say, for example, 100 tests on various experimental subjects. At the end of that one hundred tests could you look at your minutes, or your card, or your file, or whatever you maintained, and determine how many and what kind of tests each of the experimental subjects had undergone during the course of the research experiment; I am talking about in Berlin.
A. Yes, we could see that from the record book.
Q. In other words, it would be impossible to have any sort of an experiment for the purpose of research findings that would be worth anything, unless you had kept meticulous records from which the final report could be made; is that not correct?
A. Yes, of course we always kept a record book of such experiments.
Q. When did you actually arrive at Dachau, prepared to begin the Ruff-Romberg experiments?
A. I arrived, about the 20th of February. Things did not start off right then, but we went out for the first time on the 21st or 22nd of February; the 22nd was Sunday, so it might have been the 23rd. Then there was the difficulty with Rascher's orders, and the experiments were broken off again by the Reichsfuehrung. Rascher went to Schongau and I returned to Berlin and waited for news from him, as to when things had finally been put in order. I was certainly in Berlin on March 9th and on the 10th or 11th, I probably again arrived at Dachau, and on this day the actual experimental series began.
Q. Then you would say that your first tests began on 10 - 11 March, 1942?
A. Yes; I cannot say for sure, whether or not on the 23rd or 24th of February a couple of experiments were performed; however, the real work began on the 10th or 11th of March.
Q. Can yon recollect what day the tests were finally concluded? I am speaking of the Ruff-Romberg tests.
A. The experiments came to an end one or two days before the chamber was taken away; the last day was spent in packing, and the chamber was driven out of the camp of Dachau on the 19th or 20th of May, while I was personally present.
Q. During that period, from your arrival until the chamber was finally taken away, how many tests were actually made in your experiments?
A. It is hard to give the precise number, but there were certainly between two and three hundred experiments.
Q. And these two and three hundred tests, as I understand it, were for the purpose of determining the possability of rescue at high attitudes; that is to say about 20,000 meters?
A. Yes, that was their purpose.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, in compliance with the ruling of the Tribunal of last Friday, I have just received the complete translation of Document 1602-PS; and if you would like to have me wait until later I will distribute it then or do it now, whichever the Tribunal desires, as a substitute for the Document 1602-PS which is now in Document Book II. I have it completely translated and copies of German and English available now.
THE PRESIDENT: You may hand the copy to the Tribunal now.
MR. HARDY: The original exhibit is handed herewith to the Secretary General.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE SEBRING):
Q. Dr. Romber, just before the Court took its recess you made the statement that during the period you were at Dachau conducting the Ruff-Romberg experiments you estimate that between 200 and 300 tests were made. Can you tell the Tribunal approximately how many of these tests were parachute drop tests and, on the other hand, how many of them were explosive decompression tests?
A. Yes. The parachute drop experiments from high altitudes, that is to say, altitudes over fourteen or fifteen kilometers, all had to be preceded by explosive decompression into the high altitude, the altitude of the actual experiment. In the case of a slow ascent up to thirteen kilometers, for instance, there is no high altitude sickness. On the other hand, a slow ascent up to twenty kilometers would result in high altitude sickness, even with oxygen. Therefore, one ascends slowly at first in this experiment, to about eight kilometers, and then goes on with explosive decompression to the altitude of the experiment proper, the altitude from which one is to jump.
Q. The point is, then, that all of these two hundred to three hundred tests included the combination of explosive decompression and the parachute ascent?
A. Not all of them; only those that went above the altitude of fourteen or fifteen kilometers; all of these were connected with explosive decompression.
Q. Of the two hundred or three hundred tests that were made at Dachau, how many would you estimate went above the fourteen or fifteen kilometers?
A. I think approximately half went up to a higher altitude and were therefore connected with explosive decompression. Perhaps not quite half of them, because toward the end not so many experiments were carried out.
Q You arrived at Dachau somewhere around the 20th of February 1942?
A Yes, February 22 or 23.
Q And perhaps one or two tests were made on this day, and you then went back to Berlin because some difficulty had arisen concerning who was in command, or something of that sort. What was that difficulty?
A There were difficulties regarding Rascher's being assigned to Dachau. These difficulties were in part connected with his being assigned to the Weltz Institute, and on the other hand his assignment to Schongau.
Q With whom was the matter taken up in Berlin to straighten out these difficulties?
A I had nothing at all to do with that. I did not negotiate on that question at all. Rascher settled that with the Air Gau at Munich. I personally had nothing to do with his military assignment.
Q Then you came back to Dachau some time around the 10th or 11th of March. Were you ordered back to Dachau?
A No, it had been agreed from the outset that we were going to carry out the experiments. Only an interruption had taken place, which was overcome after the difficulties were eliminated regarding Rascher's assignment.
Q How many tests had you run at Berlin on the same experiment before you moved down to Dachau?
A I can not tell you that exactly, but in the parachute jump experiments, I am sure there were about twenty or thirty. In those cases the altitude was much lower, As far as explosive decompression is concerned, we performed a considerable number of experiments.
Q How many would you say?
A I am sure there were approximately two hundred explosive decompression tests.
Q Over what period of time had these tests been made?
A The parachute work had been concluded in the fall of 1941, and the explosive decompression tests were carried out up to the time of the beginning of the experiments at Dachau, about four months.
Q Then over a period of four months you conducted about two hundred explosive decompression tests at Berlin?
A Yes.
Q And how many people did you have as experimental subjects for your explosive decompression tests, by which I understand tests made at altitudes above fourteen or fifteen kilometers?
A They went up to seventeen kilometers, and as to the number of the experimental subjects, you will have to keep in mind these were members of the Institute. There were about seven.
Q Were the people used in Berlin for the parachute drops at altitudes under fourteen or fifteen kilometers a different group than that used for the explosive decompression tests?
A No, we always had the same people in Berlin. That was just the difficulty. We did not have a large number of subjects; therefore, we had to conduct various series of experiments on the same people; during the explosive decompression experiments we carried out a large number of airplane experiments, centrifuge experiments, and experiments regarding the shock deceleration, that is the shock of the parachute opening, or the braking effect in crash landings.
Q As an expert in aviation medicine, what was your view as to how often an experimental subject should be exposed to an explosive decompression test?
That is to say, how much time should elapse between one experiment or test, and the succeeding test?
A Explosive decompression is not the most strenuous part of the experiments. The altitude which is reached plays a considerable part, and the lack of oxygen which occurs as a result. In Berlin we performed explosive decompression experiments among ourselves, several times a day. No performed several on one day, and then we carried out other experiments, there were test flights when there was good weather, and then we went back to the chamber.
Q How many tests a week did you conduct your experiments at Dachau? Did you work seven days a week?
A No, there were no experiments on Sunday.
Q Did you work on holidays?
A No, at Easter, for instance, I was in Berlin, and there were never any experiments carried out on Sunday.
Q How many German holidays were there in that period of time, do you recollect?
A I think there was Easter; then there was the 1st of May, which was a holiday. Then there was Ascension Day, which was surely a holiday, and then there were all the Sundays.
Q. At the Easter holiday, how many days did you take off? Good Friday? Saturday? Easter Monday, perhaps?
A. Yes, and Monday too?
Q. Then, at the Easter Holidays, in addition to your Easter Sunday, there were three days that you did not experiment?
A. Certainly, yes.
Q. How many days did you take off on Ascension holiday?
A. I was not in Berlin for Ascension Day; there was probably only one day taken off.
Q. And on 1 May, one day?
A. I was in Berlin 1 May. At that time there was this barometer business, so that I was in Berlin for some time. I remember definitely that I was in Berlin on 1 May.
Q. When you actually reached Dachau to stay, along about-- Well, when your first came to Dachau, the 23rd of February, where were you billeted in the camp?
A. I was not billeted in the camp. I had a civilian apartment. I was living with a farmer or somebody, a private citizen, outside the camp.
Q. How far away from the camp?
A. I think approximately twenty or twenty five minutes walk from the camp.
Q. Did anyone share this billet with you, or this apartment?
A. No, I had a room with these people, which I rented.
Q. Did you ever discuss with them your reason for being in Dachau?
A. No, naturally not.
Q. Where did you mess during the time that you stayed in Dachau?
A. I had my noon meal in a little restaurant outside the camp, or else I did not eat at all. In the evening I often went in to Munich, and had supper there. If not I always ate at the restaurant in Dachau.
Q. During that time, did you discuss with anyone-other, of course, than Rascher or Ruff or some of the inspecting officers who might come to Dachau- the experiments you were conducting and the reason for your being in Dachau?
A. No, I don't think that I talked to anyone, apart from those persons whom you have mentioned.
Q. Did you keep the same billet or apartment and the same mess during all the time that you stayed in Dachau?
A. No. Afterwards I was given a room in the SS barracks, which was outside the camp, but as before I ate at that restaurant which I mentioned.
Q. When you were in the SS barracks, did anyone share your room with you?
A. No, I had a room to myself.
Q. But there were in the SS barracks a great many SS people?
A. Yes. This was an officers' barracks where other SS officers were living, and there was also some office space there.
Q. Those were SS officers in charge of the details of running the camp, in charge of the prisoners, and that sort of thing?
A. No, these SS officers, as far as I know, did not belong to the guard company of the camp, out belonged to the garrison, the regiment, or whatever it was, which was stationed at Dachau.
Q. I believe you said on Friday that there were between 60 and 70 inmates of the camp who volunteered as experimental subjects for the high-altitude experiments which you and Ruff, in collaboration with Rascher, were going to conduct in the low-pressure chamber experiments.
A. Well, according to what the experimental subjects told Ruff and me, approximately 60 persons volunteered specifically for the low-pressure experiments.
Q. And I understood that the minimum requirements for the operation of the low-pressure chamber was two men, one, the physician in charge, and the other, the mechanic who operated the engines.
A. The physician, of course, was necessary. The mechanic did not have to be present constantly to attend the engines. Once the pumps were working and the motor was running, everything was all right. The mechanic had only the task to supervise the engines, to oil them whenever necessary, etc., to see to it that no pump was ever running hot. However, it was not necessary to service the engine continuously. The whole apparatus was kept very simple because it was meant for service with troops, and they did not always have experts available.
Q. During your series of authorized experiments, who were the men who acted as the mechanics for this lowpressure chamber and who ran the engines and looked after them?
A. In particular, Sobotta took care of the engines. He knew something about them. And then there was another person among the experimental subjects who knew about motor cars. Neff sometimes concerned himself about them, but mainly there were these two men who were experts.
Q. Sobotta and Neff, then, were the experts.
A. No, the expert was another one. He was a motorcar mechanic.
Q. What was the name, do you know?
A. I don't know that any longer.
Q. What was Neff doing in the camp? Do you know why he was there?
A. As far as he told me at the time and as far as he testified here, he was there because he had denounced a bomb attack which was to be carried through by SS men, in Austria, and after that denunciation the men involved had been arrested.
Q. How long had he been at Dachau?
A. He said at the time that very soon after the annexation of Austria in the year 1938 he had been sent to the camp.
Q. As a political prisoner?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about the man Sobotta?
A. I know of Sobotta that he was an Austrian and that for repeated burglaries he had been sentenced. As far as I know, he carried out a large-scale burglary in a big Vienna Bank or the Vienna State Bank.
Q. He, then, was a criminal prisoner, as you understood it?
A. Yes, he had received a number of sentences, and he was a professional criminal who, because of these repeated burglaries, had been put in preventive custody.
Q. Do you know what court had placed him in preventive custody?
A. No, I do not know that.
Q. Now, what do you know about the man, the expert in mechanics, whose name is now unknown to you?
A. Why he was there, really, I can't tell exactly now. I think it had something to do with his knowledge of motorcars. I assume that he was carrying out burglaries in order to steal motorcars.
Q. But you don't know that?
A. I don't know that exactly.
Q During the period of time that you were in Dachau, just exactly what activity did Neff carry on that you know about? He ran the motor. I believe you said something the other day to the effect that he was in charge of bringing the experimental subjects to the chamber and returning them. What else did he do so far as you know?
A Neff was the so-called block eldest of these experimental subjects. He had to see to it that they kept their block properly. He had to get food for them, and in addition he carried out a number of errands for Rascher within the camp. For instance, he was often sent to the centeen in order to buy tobacco for the experimental subjects by order of Rascher. Sometimes he assisted during the experiments. He was occasionally sent into the room to get another experimental subject when one man was finished Neff was sent after the next one; there were quite a number of such errands.
Q He was in effect then a camp trustee of some sort?
A I don't know exactly what the relationship was in that connection. He only had this small group under him; it was not a very high position. From a military point of view, you would probably designate that position as block eldest.
Q And, as I understand, he lived in the same quarters with the experimental subjects?
A Yes, he lived in the same quarters.
Q And ate with them, I suppose?
A Yes, he ate with them, although I remember that occasionally he went over to the hospital proper to eat.
Q And that is all he did though, so far as you know, in and around the experiments?
A Yes.
Q He never was an experimental subject?
A Yes, he participated in experiments. I forgot that now, but I had already mentioned it before.
Q I thought you said that only German criminal prisoners were used for experiments?