A. Not all of them; only those that went above the altitude of fourteen or fifteen kilometers; all of these were connected with explosive decompression.
Q. Of the two hundred or three hundred tests that were made at Dachau, how many would you estimate went above the fourteen or fifteen kilometers?
A. I think approximately half went up to a higher altitude and were therefore connected with explosive decompression. Perhaps not quite half of them, because toward the end not so many experiments were carried out.
Q You arrived at Dachau somewhere around the 20th of February 1942?
A Yes, February 22 or 23.
Q And perhaps one or two tests were made on this day, and you then went back to Berlin because some difficulty had arisen concerning who was in command, or something of that sort. What was that difficulty?
A There were difficulties regarding Rascher's being assigned to Dachau. These difficulties were in part connected with his being assigned to the Weltz Institute, and on the other hand his assignment to Schongau.
Q With whom was the matter taken up in Berlin to straighten out these difficulties?
A I had nothing at all to do with that. I did not negotiate on that question at all. Rascher settled that with the Air Gau at Munich. I personally had nothing to do with his military assignment.
Q Then you came back to Dachau some time around the 10th or 11th of March. Were you ordered back to Dachau?
A No, it had been agreed from the outset that we were going to carry out the experiments. Only an interruption had taken place, which was overcome after the difficulties were eliminated regarding Rascher's assignment.
Q How many tests had you run at Berlin on the same experiment before you moved down to Dachau?
A I can not tell you that exactly, but in the parachute jump experiments, I am sure there were about twenty or thirty. In those cases the altitude was much lower, As far as explosive decompression is concerned, we performed a considerable number of experiments.
Q How many would you say?
A I am sure there were approximately two hundred explosive decompression tests.
Q Over what period of time had these tests been made?
A The parachute work had been concluded in the fall of 1941, and the explosive decompression tests were carried out up to the time of the beginning of the experiments at Dachau, about four months.
Q Then over a period of four months you conducted about two hundred explosive decompression tests at Berlin?
A Yes.
Q And how many people did you have as experimental subjects for your explosive decompression tests, by which I understand tests made at altitudes above fourteen or fifteen kilometers?
A They went up to seventeen kilometers, and as to the number of the experimental subjects, you will have to keep in mind these were members of the Institute. There were about seven.
Q Were the people used in Berlin for the parachute drops at altitudes under fourteen or fifteen kilometers a different group than that used for the explosive decompression tests?
A No, we always had the same people in Berlin. That was just the difficulty. We did not have a large number of subjects; therefore, we had to conduct various series of experiments on the same people; during the explosive decompression experiments we carried out a large number of airplane experiments, centrifuge experiments, and experiments regarding the shock deceleration, that is the shock of the parachute opening, or the braking effect in crash landings.
Q As an expert in aviation medicine, what was your view as to how often an experimental subject should be exposed to an explosive decompression test?
That is to say, how much time should elapse between one experiment or test, and the succeeding test?
A Explosive decompression is not the most strenuous part of the experiments. The altitude which is reached plays a considerable part, and the lack of oxygen which occurs as a result. In Berlin we performed explosive decompression experiments among ourselves, several times a day. No performed several on one day, and then we carried out other experiments, there were test flights when there was good weather, and then we went back to the chamber.
Q How many tests a week did you conduct your experiments at Dachau? Did you work seven days a week?
A No, there were no experiments on Sunday.
Q Did you work on holidays?
A No, at Easter, for instance, I was in Berlin, and there were never any experiments carried out on Sunday.
Q How many German holidays were there in that period of time, do you recollect?
A I think there was Easter; then there was the 1st of May, which was a holiday. Then there was Ascension Day, which was surely a holiday, and then there were all the Sundays.
Q. At the Easter holiday, how many days did you take off? Good Friday? Saturday? Easter Monday, perhaps?
A. Yes, and Monday too?
Q. Then, at the Easter Holidays, in addition to your Easter Sunday, there were three days that you did not experiment?
A. Certainly, yes.
Q. How many days did you take off on Ascension holiday?
A. I was not in Berlin for Ascension Day; there was probably only one day taken off.
Q. And on 1 May, one day?
A. I was in Berlin 1 May. At that time there was this barometer business, so that I was in Berlin for some time. I remember definitely that I was in Berlin on 1 May.
Q. When you actually reached Dachau to stay, along about-- Well, when your first came to Dachau, the 23rd of February, where were you billeted in the camp?
A. I was not billeted in the camp. I had a civilian apartment. I was living with a farmer or somebody, a private citizen, outside the camp.
Q. How far away from the camp?
A. I think approximately twenty or twenty five minutes walk from the camp.
Q. Did anyone share this billet with you, or this apartment?
A. No, I had a room with these people, which I rented.
Q. Did you ever discuss with them your reason for being in Dachau?
A. No, naturally not.
Q. Where did you mess during the time that you stayed in Dachau?
A. I had my noon meal in a little restaurant outside the camp, or else I did not eat at all. In the evening I often went in to Munich, and had supper there. If not I always ate at the restaurant in Dachau.
Q. During that time, did you discuss with anyone-other, of course, than Rascher or Ruff or some of the inspecting officers who might come to Dachau- the experiments you were conducting and the reason for your being in Dachau?
A. No, I don't think that I talked to anyone, apart from those persons whom you have mentioned.
Q. Did you keep the same billet or apartment and the same mess during all the time that you stayed in Dachau?
A. No. Afterwards I was given a room in the SS barracks, which was outside the camp, but as before I ate at that restaurant which I mentioned.
Q. When you were in the SS barracks, did anyone share your room with you?
A. No, I had a room to myself.
Q. But there were in the SS barracks a great many SS people?
A. Yes. This was an officers' barracks where other SS officers were living, and there was also some office space there.
Q. Those were SS officers in charge of the details of running the camp, in charge of the prisoners, and that sort of thing?
A. No, these SS officers, as far as I know, did not belong to the guard company of the camp, out belonged to the garrison, the regiment, or whatever it was, which was stationed at Dachau.
Q. I believe you said on Friday that there were between 60 and 70 inmates of the camp who volunteered as experimental subjects for the high-altitude experiments which you and Ruff, in collaboration with Rascher, were going to conduct in the low-pressure chamber experiments.
A. Well, according to what the experimental subjects told Ruff and me, approximately 60 persons volunteered specifically for the low-pressure experiments.
Q. And I understood that the minimum requirements for the operation of the low-pressure chamber was two men, one, the physician in charge, and the other, the mechanic who operated the engines.
A. The physician, of course, was necessary. The mechanic did not have to be present constantly to attend the engines. Once the pumps were working and the motor was running, everything was all right. The mechanic had only the task to supervise the engines, to oil them whenever necessary, etc., to see to it that no pump was ever running hot. However, it was not necessary to service the engine continuously. The whole apparatus was kept very simple because it was meant for service with troops, and they did not always have experts available.
Q. During your series of authorized experiments, who were the men who acted as the mechanics for this lowpressure chamber and who ran the engines and looked after them?
A. In particular, Sobotta took care of the engines. He knew something about them. And then there was another person among the experimental subjects who knew about motor cars. Neff sometimes concerned himself about them, but mainly there were these two men who were experts.
Q. Sobotta and Neff, then, were the experts.
A. No, the expert was another one. He was a motorcar mechanic.
Q. What was the name, do you know?
A. I don't know that any longer.
Q. What was Neff doing in the camp? Do you know why he was there?
A. As far as he told me at the time and as far as he testified here, he was there because he had denounced a bomb attack which was to be carried through by SS men, in Austria, and after that denunciation the men involved had been arrested.
Q. How long had he been at Dachau?
A. He said at the time that very soon after the annexation of Austria in the year 1938 he had been sent to the camp.
Q. As a political prisoner?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about the man Sobotta?
A. I know of Sobotta that he was an Austrian and that for repeated burglaries he had been sentenced. As far as I know, he carried out a large-scale burglary in a big Vienna Bank or the Vienna State Bank.
Q. He, then, was a criminal prisoner, as you understood it?
A. Yes, he had received a number of sentences, and he was a professional criminal who, because of these repeated burglaries, had been put in preventive custody.
Q. Do you know what court had placed him in preventive custody?
A. No, I do not know that.
Q. Now, what do you know about the man, the expert in mechanics, whose name is now unknown to you?
A. Why he was there, really, I can't tell exactly now. I think it had something to do with his knowledge of motorcars. I assume that he was carrying out burglaries in order to steal motorcars.
Q. But you don't know that?
A. I don't know that exactly.
Q During the period of time that you were in Dachau, just exactly what activity did Neff carry on that you know about? He ran the motor. I believe you said something the other day to the effect that he was in charge of bringing the experimental subjects to the chamber and returning them. What else did he do so far as you know?
A Neff was the so-called block eldest of these experimental subjects. He had to see to it that they kept their block properly. He had to get food for them, and in addition he carried out a number of errands for Rascher within the camp. For instance, he was often sent to the centeen in order to buy tobacco for the experimental subjects by order of Rascher. Sometimes he assisted during the experiments. He was occasionally sent into the room to get another experimental subject when one man was finished Neff was sent after the next one; there were quite a number of such errands.
Q He was in effect then a camp trustee of some sort?
A I don't know exactly what the relationship was in that connection. He only had this small group under him; it was not a very high position. From a military point of view, you would probably designate that position as block eldest.
Q And, as I understand, he lived in the same quarters with the experimental subjects?
A Yes, he lived in the same quarters.
Q And ate with them, I suppose?
A Yes, he ate with them, although I remember that occasionally he went over to the hospital proper to eat.
Q And that is all he did though, so far as you know, in and around the experiments?
A Yes.
Q He never was an experimental subject?
A Yes, he participated in experiments. I forgot that now, but I had already mentioned it before.
Q I thought you said that only German criminal prisoners were used for experiments?
A Neff was at this block, and upon his own initiative had volunteered for these experiments and was in a number of them, just as I participated in experiments.
Q Now, as I understand it, the sixty or seventy inmates who volunteered for the experiments were professional criminals who were the green triangle?
A Yes, as far as I am informed.
Q All of them were the green triangle?
A I didn't see all of these sixty. The experimental subjects said that altogether sixty persons had volunteered, and from these sixty our group had been selected as being suitable for the experiments from the point of view of physical condition and age.
Q And as you understood it, they were all German nationals?
A Yes.
Q And the reward held out to these volunteers was that some kind of leniency was going to be extended to them if they survived the experiments?
A Yes, they were promised that they would either be released from the camp or that their sentence would be mitigated. However, later on the occasion of Himmler's visit, all of them were promised their release.
Q How do you know that?
A The experimental subjects naturally told me that enthusiastically when I went there the day after Himmler's visit. They said that they had subjected themselves to experiments before Himmler, and he had promised them that they would be released if they conducted themselves properly. They were jubilant about this.
Q In other words, over the period of time that you were at Dachau, from 9 March to about 20 May, you were in rather close touch with your ten or fifteen experimental subjects and had got their confidence, at least to the extent that they told you of the fact that Himmler, after his visit, had promised them leniency?
A Yes, they naturally told me that.
Q About what time of the year was this?
A You mean the Himmler visit?
Q Yes.
A That must have been on a Sunday, the middle or end of April.
Q And when was it that the subjects told you what Himmler had imparted to them?
A They told me that on the very next day when I entered the station. That was the next Monday.
Q Do you know who had conveyed, to these experimental subjects the statement of Himmler to the effect that these men were going to be granted leniency?
A They told me that Himmler had told them that personally when he was there.
Q Now, when Himmler was there, had he witnessed an experiment on these subjects or had they been produced to him for dress inspection, or had he visited their barracks. How did he come in contact with the group of them?
A Himmler had come out there to the camp as far as I know, with the main purpose in mind of looking at these experiments. Himmler's visit has been described rather exactly in Wolff's affidavit, which has been submitted among Ruff's documents. I don't know the number of that document.
Q What did the man, Sobotta, do around Dachau in connection with the experiments?
A Sobotta did nothing except serve the pumps, in addition to taking part in the experiments as all the others did. Sobotta had no special position at all. He, to be sure, was the most energetic fellow there, with the most initiative. He no doubt participated in the most experiments, but he held no special official position.
Q Where did Sobotta live, did he live with the other experimental subjects?
A Yes, he lived just like all the other experimental subjects.
Q He was quartered with them, and he was messed with them?
A Yes. He hadn't been brought out in any way from the others officially.
Q Now, this unknown man who was the automobile expert, what did he do around the experiments?
A Well, together with Sobotta, he worked in the pump car. Now and again he repaired Rascher's car, but otherwise he had no special task.
Q Where did he live?
A He lived together with that group.
Q And took his meals with them, I suppose?
A Yes.
Q How was he dressed?
A Just like all the other subjects. They had this striped prisoner's suit.
Q Do you know what his nationality was?
A He was a German.
Q So that of the three men who helped you conduct the experiments as mechanics, there was Neff, the political prisoner, Sobotta, the Austrian criminal prisoner, and this man whose name was unknown who you say was a German, and who you thought was a criminal prisoner because of some burglaries or thefts in connection with automobiles.
A Yes, he had been sentenced as a professional criminal.
Q And they helped you in your experiments during the entire period that you were there?
A Well, they didn't assist me in any particular way. As far as the two mechanics go, they had certain supervisory tasks in the same way as a driver looks after a motor car by oiling it from time to time, etc. That's what these men did.
Q I understand, but unless the engines ran you couldn't conduct experiments, and these were the men who looked after the mechanical details of the motor to see that it was in good order, so you could build up your pressure or diminish your pressure in your low-pressure chamber?
A Yes.
Q When you said, that you had between ten and fifteen experimental subjects used in your experiments, I assume that you included those three men in your calculations?
A Yes, I included them.
Q So that aside from these three men you actually had twelve to seven experimental subjects rather than fifteen or ten?
A Yes, apart from these you are right.
Q When was the first time you actually saw and talked to the sixty or seventy inmates who had volunteered for the high altitude experiments?
A I never spoke to these sixty or seventy inmates, but only to the group of professional criminals who were billeted at the station. That was on the 22nd or the 23rd of February, which was the occasion on which I saw them for the first time
Q. Now what do you mean by the group of professional criminals, just the entire group that were there, or the sixty or seventy inmates who had volunteered?
A. No, the group which was billeted at the station.
Q. You mean the ten or fifteen?
A. Yes.
Q. Well then, who told you there were sixty or seventy volunteers, Dr. Rascher?
A. No, these men told me that themselves. When I asked how they were selected, etc., they replied that a number of people had volunteered and from these Dr. Rascher selected us from the point of view of health and age.
Q. Was a list ever given you showing the names of these sixty or seventy men?
A. No, I didn't see the list of the other people.
Q. What physical or mental qualifications were the men who were to be finally selected for your experiments required to have?
A. For one thing their age had to range between twenty and thirty-five years approximately, which corresponds to the age of the flying personnel of the Luftwaffe. In addition, they had to be generally fit, that is to say, they couldn't under any circumstances have a weak heart or some liver illness; they had to be normal healthy men. Mentally, of course, no considerable requirements were made. They had to have normal mental capacity. For instance, feeble-minded people wouldn't have served the purpose.
Q. Now who fixed those physical or mental qualifications, you and Dr. Ruff? In other words, who determined the type of man that you wanted for your experiments?
A. No, Rascher selected them at the time we were in Berlin.
This was done on the oasis of an arrangement that was made with the camp commander. It had been arranged that from the people who volunteered Rascher was to select this group. They had to fulfill this and that requirement, and after they were billeted at the station they had to receive good nourishment. They were not to work, etc.
Q. Who told Rascher that the experimental subjects who were finally selected had to be between twenty to thirty-five years of age, generally fit, with no weak heart or other internal ailments, and mentally normal?
A. That was set down on the basis of the conference in Dachau with the camp commander. Present were Ruff, Weltz and I, the camp commander, and Schnitzler.
Q. Whose decision was it that men between the ages of twenty to thirty-five, who were generally fit and mentally normal, were to be selected? Was it you who demanded that type of man, was it Ruff who demanded them, was it Weltz, was it the camp commander, was it Schnitzler? Someone had to determine what type of man you wanted to experiment on. Now, who actually determined that? You and Ruff were in charge of the experiments. Who actually determined the physical and mental attributes that your experimental subjects were to possess?
A. Well, surely Ruff and I. We were to carry out the experiments and we set the requirements. Who actually pronounced the requirements or whether they were laid down by discussion, I can't say exactly now, but at any rate Ruff and I were the ones.
Q. But you know the requirements you needed for the men in your experimental group because this was simply a continuation of the experiments that you had begun at Berlin, and you wanted men who as closely as possible had the same physical and mental attributes as the experimental subjects in Berlin?
Is that correct?
A. Yes that was one reason, but there was another reason which was also the reason we selected certain persons in Berlin. For instance, we didn't use any girls among the technical assistants, who might have volunteered. We bore in mind that all of these experiments were to serve the Luftwaffe and had to correspond to the personnel normally subjected to similar dangers in the Luftwaffe and, therefore, we had to have men of that age, not girls or sick people.
Q. When was the selection of the ten or fifteen experimental subjects from the sixty or seventy volunteers actually made?
A. I don't know the exact time, but when the chamber arrived at the beginning of February nobody was as yet billeted at the station, as far as I recall. When, on the other hand, I returned on the 22nd or 23rd of February, they were already there, so this must have happened during that period of time.
Q. Now, as I understand it, this was, as you say, a vitally important experiment for the benefit of the Luftwaffe, and as a consequence had to be carried out with great care, because from the results of these tests you were going to make recommendations to the Luftwaffe concerning matters which in actual combat might affect the life of the Luftwaffe members, isn't that correct?
A. Yes, we were trying to rescue people from high altitudes.
Q. And it was for that reason that it was indispensably and vitally necessary that you have experimental subjects who were between the ages of twenty to thirty five, who were generally fit, and who were mentally normal?
A. Yes, in order to draw a good comparison with the normal personnel.
Q. Who was present when the ten or fifteen experimental subjects were selected from the sixty or seventy volunteers?
A. I don't know that. I am sure Rascher must have been present. He was the one who selected them. Who else was present I don't know.
Q In other words, Dr. Rascher actually made the selection?
A Yes.
Q What tests were given them to ascertain whether or not they had the mental and physical qualifications for experimental subjects?
A There was a normal medical examination. In other words he listened to their heart and their lungs and conversed with them.
Q How do you know that?
A He told me about it and the experimental subjects also told me that they had been examined.
Q Then, as I understand it, before you began your experiments you talked with each one of these experimental subjects?
A I wouldn't say that I talked to these experimental subjects before each experiment, but by a large and did converse with these persons in order to make their acquittance and in order to tell them what was a stake during these experiments. Naturally, the persons only gained a certain confidence in me as time progressed.
Q In other words, you wanted to get well acquainted with them so that they would make experimental subjects who would aid you in your tests. Because if they were not willing subjects they would act be as helpful to you as though they were willing subjects, is that the point?
A Yes, we wanted to have proper cooperation on the part of the experimental subject.
Q I suppose that from time to time you demanded not only proper cooperation but cordial cooperation?
A Well, yes, we had to depend on a certain amount of cooperation
Q And so the group being very small, only twelve to seven, with Neff eliminated, and Sabota eliminated, and the unknown man eliminated, you had a very small group, and in order to establish a relationship of good will, I suppose from time to time as each of them presented himself for the experiment, you said: "Where are you from? Why are you here? What is your name, and so forth?"
A. Yes, these two men, Sabota and the other did fully belong to that experimental group and participated in all our experiments. They were not isolated in any way from that group. And I naturally conversed with them frequently.
Q. In other words, you asked them, -- Well here was a man, perhaps the first experimental subject just walked up and you would say: Are you mentally fit? Are you mentally normal? Is your heart strong? Do you have any liver ailments? Are you generally fit, or what did you say to them. You were meeting them for the first time as an expert who had come to Dachau to conduct certain experiments? You were meeting them for the first time in a concentration camp. They were prisoners there. You were a complete stranger to them, except it was known you were an expert from Berlin who was going to conduct the experiments. How I would think that there would be a considerable resistense on the part of the men to present themselves until first you know them well, or in the other hand they know you well so that they would have confidence in you and I would think moreover that in order to win their confidence you would want to know what their names were, and perhaps their background, what part of the country they had come from, what they were doing in prison, how well they were treated. -- I would think all of those things would be necessary in order for you to get the complete cooperation and the good will that was vitally necessary for your experiments, is that more or less correct?