A. Well, by and large, that is correct. Of course, one couldn't discuss all details in the sane manner with these men. For instance, the subject of their own sentences was something about which they were very reticent and only gradually started speaking. As time progressed, they told what brought them to the camp. It is quite typical, and that is also contained in the Wolff affidavit, that Sobotka, when asked by Himmler what he had done, had said that he had merely smuggled coffee, but afterwards it had been found out that he repeatedly committed severe burglaries - breaking open banks. Naturally, they didn't talk freely about their sentences and about their life in the camp. The real acquaintance only developed as time progressed.
Q. But over the period of time you got well enough acquainted, I suppose, that some of them actually confided in you. At least, to the extent that you knew their ages, you knew their names, you knew where they were from, you knew whether they had families at home - that sort of thing?
A. Yes, naturally that varied. Some were more likely to converse with me, others less. For instance, one person who had forged money told me his entire background, including many details, on one occasion. At the beginning, however, he was rather reticent, but later he told me exactly how he was arrested and how he was forging the money, etc.
Q. And you certainly knew, over that period of time of relationship, that they were between the ages of 20 and 35, that they were generally fit, with no weak hearts or liver ailments or bad kidneys and that sort of thing - and that they were mentally normal?
A. Yes, naturally I didn't examine the livers of these people in detail. Rascher, by order, had carried out this medical examination, but one could see by merely looking at these people that they were fit, and I also discussed their health with them.
Q. Did you ever see the records upon which Rascher had set down the results of his examinations - either of the sixty to seventy volunteers or of the ten to fifteen men finally selected for the experiments?
A. His record about his own experiments - is that what you mean?
Q. No, no, say that there were sixty to seventy volunteers; that from them he finally selected ten to fifteen experimental subjects who, by your direction in defining the necessary physical and mental requirements, were between ages of twenty to thirty-five, were generally fit and were mentally normal. Now, in order to determine that fact, he undoubtedly gave them physical and mental examinations. Did you ever see the list of the ten or fifteen men who were finally examined and who were found to have these physical qualifications? Did you ever see it?
A. No, I never saw that list and he didn't show it to me. He just told me, "I have examined these people and they are healthy."
Q. When the ten to fifteen experimental subjects were finally selected, whet then became of the other fifty-five or forty or whatever was left over?
A. I can't tell you that in detail; I don't know what happened to them. Partly, I'm sure that they went back or rather remained at their work detail or wherever they were, and partly, I am sure, Rascher used these people for his own experiments.
Q. You think then that, of the forty-five or fifty who were left, Rascher used some of them for his experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. He told me that he had volunteers for his experiments and that he was taking people who had already volunteered.
Q. I see. Rascher told you that, of those who were not selected for your experiments, he used some of that group for his experiments?
A. Yes, he said that some of these people who had volunteered had been taken by him.
Q. When did he tell you that?
A. I can't tell you that exactly - when it was - but I'm sure it was after he had started his own experiments along with ours.
Q. When did he start his own experiments?
A. I can't give you the exact date since he was performing these experiments during my absence and also at night. At any rate, I heard about that approximately in the middle of April.
Q. Who told you?
A. Rascher himself told me that. He said that he was performing additional experiments.
Q. And that was some time during the middle of April, 1942?
A. Yes.
Q. And he told you at that time that he was using, as his experimental subjects, some of the men who had originally volunteered?
A. He said that he had a number of experimental subjects who partly had been sentenced and were professional criminals, and partly some who had been sentenced to death.
Q. I know all about that, but in April, 1942, he told you that he was using some of that original seventy to sixty men who had volunteered for your experiments but who had not been selected?
A. I cannot tell that exactly. These persons didn't volunteer principally for our experiments, but made themselves available for experiments, generally speaking.
Q. I understand, and of that seventy to sixty you found fifteen to ten who had the physical and mental attributes for your experiments? Is that correct?
Q. Well, there may have been more in that group who had the same attributes, I don't know that. I think there were about thirty or forty in that age group but I cannot tell you that exactly.
Q. Did Rascher ever tell you that?
A. No, Rascher didn't give me any details about his affairs.
Q. Then you don't know whether the men he used for his private experiments possessed the physical and mental requirements laid down by you and Ruff or not, do you?
A. No, I cannot say that in every case.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 5 May 1947.)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HANS ROMBERG - Resumed EXAMINATION BY THE COURT (Continued) BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Dr. Romberg, in the conduct of your tests in the Ruff, Romberg, Rascher experiment, what data or information was it necessary for you to record in regard to each test in order to get a true picture of that test?
A. In the experiments involving a relatively low altitude, the experimental subjects themselves wrote numbers from 1000 on up, or wrote their names. In experiments involving higher altitudes or in the little chamber, was difficult to write, there was a sort of telephonic connection with the experimental subject. The subject had earphones on and had a microphone so that one was able to ascertain how he reacted when spoken to, and so that one could answer certain questions, questions about their mental condition, whether they wore perfectly clear, and so forth. Also, and this is very important, they were obliged to pull the parachute release on their own initiative without being told to, thus proving that they were completely in possession of their faculties, and they recognized the situation in which they found themselves.
Q. And all of that data or informatin then was recorded by you and preserved?
A., Yes, that was written down.
Q. Upon what was it written?
A. Usually during the experiment it was written on a piece of paper.
Sometimes it was written directly into the record, otherwise, it was entered in the record after the experiment, also the numbers and names, the writing tests, that the experimental subjects conducted while in the chamber, were preserved.
Q. In other words you preserved the name of the experimental subject, the day and hour, I suppose, upon which the test was made, and his reactions during the course of the test. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So that when you finished with your series of experiments you could look at this record, you could tell the name of each experimental subject, the date and time upon wnich he had been subjected to an experiment and his reactions during the course of each separate test, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is so'.
Q. Who recorded that information?
A. During the experiment itself Rascher or myself wrote down these individual data, we made notes regarding the time when the person recovered consciousness and these were the data on which the report was subsequently worked out.
Q. And that course of procedure was followed throughout the entire course of the 200 to 300 tests?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the 200 to 300 tests you used 10 to 15 selected volunteer subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. And for the 200 to 300 tests you always used the same 10 or 15 subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. And each time an experimental subject would be presented to you or to Rascher in your presence for the conduct of the Ruff - Romberg experiments, I suppose you either asked him his name or ascertained his name from the record so that you could compare the data for the test on the particular day with the previous tests, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Aid when you had finished the 200 or 300 tests you then were in a position to ascertain over the course of the experiment how many tests each volunteer had undergone?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. And it was from those separate lists as to each experimental subject, it was from those that you made your recommendations to higher authority for leniency for the experimental subjects?
A. Recommendations for leniency were not made by us, at least not by myself. This was a matter which Himmler had arrogated to himself from the very beginning. We of the DVL had no influence on this.
Q. How would Himmler know who to extend lienency to unless somebody gave him the names of the experimental subjects who had successfully completed the tests?
A. There was certainly the camp card index file on all those who participated in the experiments. These people had moved and moreover lived in separate barracks so that their manes could at any time be ascertained. The intermediary who had contact with the camp commander and with Himmler and who had received the authority from Himmler was Rascher. We had no direct contact with Himmler, written or otherwise.
Q. Then that was a matter that was left, so far as you and Ruff were concerned, that was left to Dr. Rascher?
A. Yes, he was the one who from the very beginning had received the authority and permission from Himmler.
Q. Dr. Romberg, how many test runs on experimental subjects had you completed when to your knowledge Rascher began his first independent experiment under his separate order from Himmler?
A. About half of them. That would be roughly one hundred or perhaps a little more than a hundred experiments.
Q. What was the approximate date upon which you gained knowledge that Rascher was conducting independent experiments?
A. The beginning or the middle of April, at any rate after Easter of 1942.
Q. Then from about 11 March 1942 to the middle of April 1942 you had run a little more than one hundred of the two hundred or three hundred high altitude tests that you were going to run in your experiments?
A. Of course I can't tell you exactly, but that is what I estimate it to be approximately.
Q. How many test runs on volunteer experimental subjects had you completed when to your knowledge the first death occurred in Rascher's independent experiments under Himmler during the latter part of April 1942? 6993
A. That was the end of April. It might have been as many as 200 roughly, experiments that had been concluded by that time, perhaps even more.
Q. How many test runs had you completed when to your knowledge the second death occurred in Rascher's independent experiments under the separate order of Himmler?
A. That was just at the very end of the experiments were almost through with them and didn't have so many experiments left. We were just doing the last ones at great altitudes.
Q. How many do you think you still had to do?
A. That is very hard to say, but you have to draw a distinction between those that would have been done if the experiments had continued in a normal way and those that we did to bring the series to adequate conclusion. It is specifically mentioned in the report, for example, that out of 21 intended experiments only one was carried out. Consequently you cannot evaluate the conclusions reached as well as if they had been carried out on a great number of persons.
Q. But you don't know how many more experiments or tests you probably had to run after the second death?
A. If we had continued at the same rate as we had intended there would have been another 30 or 40 more, but since the experimental series was limited thereafter less experiments were actually carried out before we reached the end.
Q. Now, I understand that the second death occurred on one day in May and the third death occurred the next day, is that correct?
A. Yes, and that was about the middle of May.
Q. How many test runs did you make on your own experiment after the third death occurred, not how many you had originally started to run, but how many you did actually run?
A. That could only have been very few, because after the third death the chamber was soon taken away, namely on the 19th, so that it might have been another 10.
C. You said this morning that the reason you knew of the death of the second and third, experimental subject in the Rascher test was because of the fact that upon the same day and prior to the deaths you had just finished conducting one of your own Romberg-Rascher experiments, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Exactly what data were you recording at the time Rascher was conducting his experiment in which the second death occurred?
A. I don't quite understand the question, what data I had?
Q. This morning you said, that you were not at the controls at the time the death occurred to the second experimental subject, but that you were somewhere around the low pressure chamber writing up your data, because you had just completed a test, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now what data were you writing up?
A. After the experiments we wrote down the length of time and the altitude and so to speak we drew the curve in which the descents occurred, and then we entered in the book exactly what altitude corresponded to any particular status of the experimental subject. The altitude was measured by a column of quick-silver, while for the practical evaluation we had to know the exact altitude at which the person gained or lost consciousness. Consequently the gague on the column of quick silver had to be translated into terms of altitude and meters. That was the work that had to be done after the experiment.
Q. Where were you doing that work?
A. Usually I sat in the room in the low pressure chamber where the decompression chamber was located. This was a large truck, like a furniture van, and there was an ante-room, and in the end was a bench and a table with the EKG apparatus on it, and sitting on this bench I usually wrote up my notes, and perhaps I referred again to the quick silver barometer if I hadn't gotten some of the figures. That is why I did this work in the low pressure chamber van, but of course not in the chamber itself.
Q. And that is where you were at the time Rascher's second death and the third death occurred with his experimental subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. How far would you estimate that you were sitting from the controls?
A. About two or two and a half meters.
Q. Who was manipulating the controls at the time?
A. Rascher was carrying out his own experiments, and consequently manipulated the levers of the EKG, and the other instruments himself, when he was doing the experiment.
Q. Was there anyone there helping him at the time?
A. No, no one.
Q Where were you, when that experimental subject was first brought into the chamber; were you sitting in the anti-room working up your data?
A When the experimental subjects came up, yes, I was certainly in the low pressure van.
Q Yes, I am talking about the experimental subject who came there then?
A Yes.
Q They gave you the impression of men, who understood they were there as volunteers for high altitude experiments that were being carried on within proper limits?
A Yes.
Q How long was it after the completion of your experiment; let us consider now the day the second experimental subject met his death; how long a time was it between the conclusion of your experiments, the Ruff-Rombcrg experiments and the beginning of the Rascher experiments, wherein the experimental subject met his death?
A Rascher did not carry out the experiments right away, which led to the death. Before the fatal experiment, he carried out other experiments.
Q How many other experiments?
A I think in this case there were three.
Q Three experiments prior to the time of the experiments in which the man met his death?
A That is right.
Q How long had the second subject been in the chamber before he came to his death?
A I cannot tell you that for sure because I did not pay any attention.
Q How long were you in that anti-room after you completed your experiments writing up your report?
A I must have been there about one hour.
Q Then, during the course of the hour, two or three experiments were conducted, which had no fatal consequences and the fourth one began all within the period of an hour?
A Yes.
Q After each of those experiments were concluded, the ones that did not result in death; did Rascher make notes of what had happened to the test subjects?
A During the experiments Rascher wrote down his notes.
Q Wrote down the notes, watched the altitude gauge, observed the cardiogram, manipulated the pressure wheel and did everything necessary to carry out the experiments and to record the data?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember, who brought those experimental subjects that day to the chamber?
A I don't know for certain, but I believe it was an SS man from the camp who brought them.
Q Do you know where they came from?
A No, that I do not know.
Q Did they come from the same quarters that your ten or fifteen men came from?
A No, they came from somewhere in the camp.
Q Had you and Rascher had any discussion on that day -- by the way, what time was it that the death of the second experimental subject happened?
A In the late forenoon, I should say around noon.
Q So that you had completed your experiments then certainly by eleven o'clock of that morning?
A Yes, by that time we had concluded our own experiments.
Q Had you and Rascher had any discussion between the time of the conclusion of your experiments at eleven o'clock and the experiments when the second death occurred?
A No, we certainly did not talk with each other very much. I probably said I was going to evaluate my material there, but we did not, as I said, talk with each other very much.
Q Now, after this death occurred, the second death, how many experiments did you conduct on the same day after that on your own, the Ruff-Romberg experiments?
A I believe that I carried out no further experiments on that day.
Q What about the third death?
A The situation was similar. I do not know if this was also in the morning, but I believe it was. We had carried out our own experiments and Rascher did his subsequently.
Q Now, let us consider for a moment the occasion when you witnessed the death of one of Rascher's experimental subjects; the first death you say you witnessed during the latter part of April, 1942; did you know this experimental subject?
A No, I did not know him personally; he was one of Rascher's own subjects.
Q Had he been used by Rascher for any other experiments prior to that time?
A That I really cannot tell you, I did not know him, but it is quite possible that Rascher had used him for other ones.
Q Had you ever seen him before?
A No, I cannot recall that I had.
Q Did you know his name?
A No, I did not know his name.
Q Did you know his nationality?
A No, I heard him speaking and he spoke German with Rascher.
Q Was he one of the ten or fifteen men, who had been selected for the Ruff-Romberg experiments?
A No, he certainly was not.
Q Was he one of the 60 or 70 inmates who had first volunteered, from whom you had selected some ten or fifteen subjects?
A That I cannot say because I don't know whether he was one of them.
Q What time of day did this death happen?
A That I cannot say for certain, but I believe that it was around noon or after luncheon.
Q Had you conducted any experiments that day?
A Yes, we had.
Q How many?
A I really cannot tell you. At that time we had conducted a relatively large number of experiments, but I really cannot give you precise figures.
Q Did you conduct any on that day after the death?
A No, I don't believe so.
Q Do you remember whether or not the first experimental subject who died, was unconscious at the time he was taken from the low pressure chamber?
A No, when they were brought out, they were certainly dead, not simply unconscious.
Q I am talking about the first man.
A You mean in our own experiments or do you mean in Rascher's experiments.
Q I am talking about the Rascher experiments, that first man who came out of there, whom you say died; was he dead when taken from the chamber?
A Yes, he certainly was. He died at the high altitude or during the descent. I believe that he died while he was at the high altitude and died of air embolism.
Q Was that test suddenly brought to an end, or was it concluded as it would have been if a man would not have died?
A I don't know how long Rascher would have conducted this experiment, had the man not died.
Q Well, how did you or Rascher know that the man was dead while he was still in the low pressure chamber?
A I did not pay very close attention to this, but Rascher certainly saw this from the electro-cardigram and probably also from the respiration of the subject and for that reason brought him down from the high altitude.
Q In other words, those machines would not operate, they would go dead in effect because there was nothing to register; is that correct?
A What machines do you mean?
Q The electro-cardiogram.
A I did not lock at it very closely, but if the man was dead I assume there would be nothing to register.
Q That is what I am trying to get at; who took the first subject from the chamber?
A Rascher sent over to the morgue and two prisoners came with a stretcher and took him away.
Q Whom did he send to the morgue?
A So far as I knew, he sent Neff over to the morgue.
Q Was there anyone else around there at the time besides Neff?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Who was running the engines at the time?
A The controls ran throughout the entire experiment, the pumps did not have to be manipulated, only the air pressure was regulated, the access of air to the chamber and that regulated the altitude.
Q I understand. Was the mechanic around there at the time, Sabotta, or your unknown nan whose name you do not know?
A I really cannot tell you whether one of them was in the back of the van in the machine room. There was another truck next to the van, which contained the machines; now whether one of them was in there, then I don't know. The pumps operated, whether someone was there all the time or not. 7001
Q Well, if he was there you did not see him?
A No, I could not have seen him because he was inside the van.
Q When you began your experiments that morning, who started the engines and who was in charge of them for the Ruff-Romberg experiments?
A In the morning, someone, usually Sabotta or Neff, came around and set the motors in motion.
Q Do you remember who did it that morning?
A No, I don't remember.
Q Do you remember who was there as a mechanic at the time of the second death?
A No, I don't.
Q At the time of the third death?
A I also cannot say, it was certainly one of the three, but just who it was I don't know.
Q In the case of the second death; who took the man out of the chamber.
A The situation was the same. Rascher sent someone over to the morgue. The prisoners came from there with a stretcher and took away the corpse.
Q The same is true in regard to the third death?
A Yes.
Q And in each case, it would be Neff, Sobotta, or your unknown mechanic, the man whose name you do not remember?
A Who was at the pump, you mean, or who was sent over to the morgue?
Q Yes, who was sent to the morgue in each case.
A That was probably not Sobotta or the other, because they were busy with the motors. It was probably Neff or one of the others who belonged to that group. Sobotta and the other man were usually busy, as I said, with the pumps and motors and didn't run errands as often.
Q In other words, when Rascher conducted his experiments, he always had Neff there or Sobotta there to run errands or to do things of that sort, should it become necessary, is that correct?
A Practically, the men were always at the station. The room they lived in was only a few meters from the van so that actually they were always available and it sufficed simply to yell in order to get one of them.
Q In other words, if anything should happen in the chamber, then a simple yell would bring Sabotta or Neff or the other man to the chamber, because they lived only a very few meters from where the experiments were being conducted.
A Yes, they lived close by.
Q All of your experimental subjects lived right there so that you could have them as you needed them?
A Yes, that's right.
Q And you think that on the occasions of these deaths, if Neff or Sabotta was not at the pressure chamber or at the engine in the van, that Rascher simply yelled for someone in barracks close by to come out?
A He simply had to leave the van and go to the barracks and yell and somebody would surely come.
Q And you think that is what he did on each of these three occasions?
A Yes, that is what I believe.
Q Then it was a reasonable thing to assume that those experimental subjects knew that Rascher was conducting experiments, as well as yourself, and that he was conducting independent experiments?
A They certainly knew that.
Q And they knewthat sometimes you were there writing up your data at the same time that he had been conducting the experiments?
A Yes.
Q Has there any occasion when you acted as an experimental subject in the low pressure chamber while Rascher manipulated the controls from the outside?
A Yes, that happened several times.
Q When was that?
A When I went with the experimental subjects into the chamber for a slow sinking descent, for example from 12,000 or 13,000 kilometres, in order to watch the writing tests that they were doing. Then Rascher stayed outside and manipulated the chamber. I also carried out explosive decompression experiments during which I was inside the chamber and Rascher was outside. In the experiments described in the report, the experiments on myself, Rascher was inside but who was outside, I don't know, it can't have been Rascher in this case.
Q When you were inside was there anyone outside with Rascher, or was he doing the whole thing by himself?
A He was outside and took care of the machinery, yes.
Q No one was assisting him at the time?
A No, it wasn't necessary.
Q When was this?
A I was in several times.
Q Name the dates.
A I can't tell you really. I was in there in the beginning, when we made the experiments at twelve or thirteen thousand metres altitude and I was in there at the conclusion and several times in between, but I can't fix the precise days.
Q Were you in there as an experimental subject any time after you had seen the first, the second, or the third experimental subject in the Rascher experiment die?
A Yes -- I carried out an experiment at 19 kilometres, which certainly took place after the first fatality -- not after the second or third fatality, however.
Q And no one was at the controls but Dr. Rascher?
A That's right.
Q And you had full confidence in him at the time?
A I was confinced that in the experiments that we were carrying on continuously, nothing would happen, and for that reason I went in as an experimental subject.
Q What would have prevented Rascher from putting you through the same course that he put the experimental subject through?
A Today I wouldn't go in, now that I know what I know, but at that time I had no reason to assume that he was going to kill me in an experiment.
Q After he had already conducted one experiment in which, from your observation the experimental person would die, and you remonstrated with him after that, you were still willing to go back into the chamber, and did go back?
A In this experiment, I wasn't in a position to say death must occur. I would, however, say it was dangerous and that I myself would have interrupted the experiment. On the other hand, the experiment scheduled was a free falling experiment. In the experiment in which I participated, they exactly laid down how high I was to go and how far I was to fall. I was was examined on account of the experiences gained by the experiments that nothing would happen and I had no reason to believe that Rascher would suddenly change the program and change the descent in any way, so that something might happen.