A Neff was at this block, and upon his own initiative had volunteered for these experiments and was in a number of them, just as I participated in experiments.
Q Now, as I understand it, the sixty or seventy inmates who volunteered for the experiments were professional criminals who were the green triangle?
A Yes, as far as I am informed.
Q All of them were the green triangle?
A I didn't see all of these sixty. The experimental subjects said that altogether sixty persons had volunteered, and from these sixty our group had been selected as being suitable for the experiments from the point of view of physical condition and age.
Q And as you understood it, they were all German nationals?
A Yes.
Q And the reward held out to these volunteers was that some kind of leniency was going to be extended to them if they survived the experiments?
A Yes, they were promised that they would either be released from the camp or that their sentence would be mitigated. However, later on the occasion of Himmler's visit, all of them were promised their release.
Q How do you know that?
A The experimental subjects naturally told me that enthusiastically when I went there the day after Himmler's visit. They said that they had subjected themselves to experiments before Himmler, and he had promised them that they would be released if they conducted themselves properly. They were jubilant about this.
Q In other words, over the period of time that you were at Dachau, from 9 March to about 20 May, you were in rather close touch with your ten or fifteen experimental subjects and had got their confidence, at least to the extent that they told you of the fact that Himmler, after his visit, had promised them leniency?
A Yes, they naturally told me that.
Q About what time of the year was this?
A You mean the Himmler visit?
Q Yes.
A That must have been on a Sunday, the middle or end of April.
Q And when was it that the subjects told you what Himmler had imparted to them?
A They told me that on the very next day when I entered the station. That was the next Monday.
Q Do you know who had conveyed, to these experimental subjects the statement of Himmler to the effect that these men were going to be granted leniency?
A They told me that Himmler had told them that personally when he was there.
Q Now, when Himmler was there, had he witnessed an experiment on these subjects or had they been produced to him for dress inspection, or had he visited their barracks. How did he come in contact with the group of them?
A Himmler had come out there to the camp as far as I know, with the main purpose in mind of looking at these experiments. Himmler's visit has been described rather exactly in Wolff's affidavit, which has been submitted among Ruff's documents. I don't know the number of that document.
Q What did the man, Sobotta, do around Dachau in connection with the experiments?
A Sobotta did nothing except serve the pumps, in addition to taking part in the experiments as all the others did. Sobotta had no special position at all. He, to be sure, was the most energetic fellow there, with the most initiative. He no doubt participated in the most experiments, but he held no special official position.
Q Where did Sobotta live, did he live with the other experimental subjects?
A Yes, he lived just like all the other experimental subjects.
Q He was quartered with them, and he was messed with them?
A Yes. He hadn't been brought out in any way from the others officially.
Q Now, this unknown man who was the automobile expert, what did he do around the experiments?
A Well, together with Sobotta, he worked in the pump car. Now and again he repaired Rascher's car, but otherwise he had no special task.
Q Where did he live?
A He lived together with that group.
Q And took his meals with them, I suppose?
A Yes.
Q How was he dressed?
A Just like all the other subjects. They had this striped prisoner's suit.
Q Do you know what his nationality was?
A He was a German.
Q So that of the three men who helped you conduct the experiments as mechanics, there was Neff, the political prisoner, Sobotta, the Austrian criminal prisoner, and this man whose name was unknown who you say was a German, and who you thought was a criminal prisoner because of some burglaries or thefts in connection with automobiles.
A Yes, he had been sentenced as a professional criminal.
Q And they helped you in your experiments during the entire period that you were there?
A Well, they didn't assist me in any particular way. As far as the two mechanics go, they had certain supervisory tasks in the same way as a driver looks after a motor car by oiling it from time to time, etc. That's what these men did.
Q I understand, but unless the engines ran you couldn't conduct experiments, and these were the men who looked after the mechanical details of the motor to see that it was in good order, so you could build up your pressure or diminish your pressure in your low-pressure chamber?
A Yes.
Q When you said, that you had between ten and fifteen experimental subjects used in your experiments, I assume that you included those three men in your calculations?
A Yes, I included them.
Q So that aside from these three men you actually had twelve to seven experimental subjects rather than fifteen or ten?
A Yes, apart from these you are right.
Q When was the first time you actually saw and talked to the sixty or seventy inmates who had volunteered for the high altitude experiments?
A I never spoke to these sixty or seventy inmates, but only to the group of professional criminals who were billeted at the station. That was on the 22nd or the 23rd of February, which was the occasion on which I saw them for the first time
Q. Now what do you mean by the group of professional criminals, just the entire group that were there, or the sixty or seventy inmates who had volunteered?
A. No, the group which was billeted at the station.
Q. You mean the ten or fifteen?
A. Yes.
Q. Well then, who told you there were sixty or seventy volunteers, Dr. Rascher?
A. No, these men told me that themselves. When I asked how they were selected, etc., they replied that a number of people had volunteered and from these Dr. Rascher selected us from the point of view of health and age.
Q. Was a list ever given you showing the names of these sixty or seventy men?
A. No, I didn't see the list of the other people.
Q. What physical or mental qualifications were the men who were to be finally selected for your experiments required to have?
A. For one thing their age had to range between twenty and thirty-five years approximately, which corresponds to the age of the flying personnel of the Luftwaffe. In addition, they had to be generally fit, that is to say, they couldn't under any circumstances have a weak heart or some liver illness; they had to be normal healthy men. Mentally, of course, no considerable requirements were made. They had to have normal mental capacity. For instance, feeble-minded people wouldn't have served the purpose.
Q. Now who fixed those physical or mental qualifications, you and Dr. Ruff? In other words, who determined the type of man that you wanted for your experiments?
A. No, Rascher selected them at the time we were in Berlin.
This was done on the oasis of an arrangement that was made with the camp commander. It had been arranged that from the people who volunteered Rascher was to select this group. They had to fulfill this and that requirement, and after they were billeted at the station they had to receive good nourishment. They were not to work, etc.
Q. Who told Rascher that the experimental subjects who were finally selected had to be between twenty to thirty-five years of age, generally fit, with no weak heart or other internal ailments, and mentally normal?
A. That was set down on the basis of the conference in Dachau with the camp commander. Present were Ruff, Weltz and I, the camp commander, and Schnitzler.
Q. Whose decision was it that men between the ages of twenty to thirty-five, who were generally fit and mentally normal, were to be selected? Was it you who demanded that type of man, was it Ruff who demanded them, was it Weltz, was it the camp commander, was it Schnitzler? Someone had to determine what type of man you wanted to experiment on. Now, who actually determined that? You and Ruff were in charge of the experiments. Who actually determined the physical and mental attributes that your experimental subjects were to possess?
A. Well, surely Ruff and I. We were to carry out the experiments and we set the requirements. Who actually pronounced the requirements or whether they were laid down by discussion, I can't say exactly now, but at any rate Ruff and I were the ones.
Q. But you know the requirements you needed for the men in your experimental group because this was simply a continuation of the experiments that you had begun at Berlin, and you wanted men who as closely as possible had the same physical and mental attributes as the experimental subjects in Berlin?
Is that correct?
A. Yes that was one reason, but there was another reason which was also the reason we selected certain persons in Berlin. For instance, we didn't use any girls among the technical assistants, who might have volunteered. We bore in mind that all of these experiments were to serve the Luftwaffe and had to correspond to the personnel normally subjected to similar dangers in the Luftwaffe and, therefore, we had to have men of that age, not girls or sick people.
Q. When was the selection of the ten or fifteen experimental subjects from the sixty or seventy volunteers actually made?
A. I don't know the exact time, but when the chamber arrived at the beginning of February nobody was as yet billeted at the station, as far as I recall. When, on the other hand, I returned on the 22nd or 23rd of February, they were already there, so this must have happened during that period of time.
Q. Now, as I understand it, this was, as you say, a vitally important experiment for the benefit of the Luftwaffe, and as a consequence had to be carried out with great care, because from the results of these tests you were going to make recommendations to the Luftwaffe concerning matters which in actual combat might affect the life of the Luftwaffe members, isn't that correct?
A. Yes, we were trying to rescue people from high altitudes.
Q. And it was for that reason that it was indispensably and vitally necessary that you have experimental subjects who were between the ages of twenty to thirty five, who were generally fit, and who were mentally normal?
A. Yes, in order to draw a good comparison with the normal personnel.
Q. Who was present when the ten or fifteen experimental subjects were selected from the sixty or seventy volunteers?
A. I don't know that. I am sure Rascher must have been present. He was the one who selected them. Who else was present I don't know.
Q In other words, Dr. Rascher actually made the selection?
A Yes.
Q What tests were given them to ascertain whether or not they had the mental and physical qualifications for experimental subjects?
A There was a normal medical examination. In other words he listened to their heart and their lungs and conversed with them.
Q How do you know that?
A He told me about it and the experimental subjects also told me that they had been examined.
Q Then, as I understand it, before you began your experiments you talked with each one of these experimental subjects?
A I wouldn't say that I talked to these experimental subjects before each experiment, but by a large and did converse with these persons in order to make their acquittance and in order to tell them what was a stake during these experiments. Naturally, the persons only gained a certain confidence in me as time progressed.
Q In other words, you wanted to get well acquainted with them so that they would make experimental subjects who would aid you in your tests. Because if they were not willing subjects they would act be as helpful to you as though they were willing subjects, is that the point?
A Yes, we wanted to have proper cooperation on the part of the experimental subject.
Q I suppose that from time to time you demanded not only proper cooperation but cordial cooperation?
A Well, yes, we had to depend on a certain amount of cooperation
Q And so the group being very small, only twelve to seven, with Neff eliminated, and Sabota eliminated, and the unknown man eliminated, you had a very small group, and in order to establish a relationship of good will, I suppose from time to time as each of them presented himself for the experiment, you said: "Where are you from? Why are you here? What is your name, and so forth?"
A. Yes, these two men, Sabota and the other did fully belong to that experimental group and participated in all our experiments. They were not isolated in any way from that group. And I naturally conversed with them frequently.
Q. In other words, you asked them, -- Well here was a man, perhaps the first experimental subject just walked up and you would say: Are you mentally fit? Are you mentally normal? Is your heart strong? Do you have any liver ailments? Are you generally fit, or what did you say to them. You were meeting them for the first time as an expert who had come to Dachau to conduct certain experiments? You were meeting them for the first time in a concentration camp. They were prisoners there. You were a complete stranger to them, except it was known you were an expert from Berlin who was going to conduct the experiments. How I would think that there would be a considerable resistense on the part of the men to present themselves until first you know them well, or in the other hand they know you well so that they would have confidence in you and I would think moreover that in order to win their confidence you would want to know what their names were, and perhaps their background, what part of the country they had come from, what they were doing in prison, how well they were treated. -- I would think all of those things would be necessary in order for you to get the complete cooperation and the good will that was vitally necessary for your experiments, is that more or less correct?
A. Well, by and large, that is correct. Of course, one couldn't discuss all details in the sane manner with these men. For instance, the subject of their own sentences was something about which they were very reticent and only gradually started speaking. As time progressed, they told what brought them to the camp. It is quite typical, and that is also contained in the Wolff affidavit, that Sobotka, when asked by Himmler what he had done, had said that he had merely smuggled coffee, but afterwards it had been found out that he repeatedly committed severe burglaries - breaking open banks. Naturally, they didn't talk freely about their sentences and about their life in the camp. The real acquaintance only developed as time progressed.
Q. But over the period of time you got well enough acquainted, I suppose, that some of them actually confided in you. At least, to the extent that you knew their ages, you knew their names, you knew where they were from, you knew whether they had families at home - that sort of thing?
A. Yes, naturally that varied. Some were more likely to converse with me, others less. For instance, one person who had forged money told me his entire background, including many details, on one occasion. At the beginning, however, he was rather reticent, but later he told me exactly how he was arrested and how he was forging the money, etc.
Q. And you certainly knew, over that period of time of relationship, that they were between the ages of 20 and 35, that they were generally fit, with no weak hearts or liver ailments or bad kidneys and that sort of thing - and that they were mentally normal?
A. Yes, naturally I didn't examine the livers of these people in detail. Rascher, by order, had carried out this medical examination, but one could see by merely looking at these people that they were fit, and I also discussed their health with them.
Q. Did you ever see the records upon which Rascher had set down the results of his examinations - either of the sixty to seventy volunteers or of the ten to fifteen men finally selected for the experiments?
A. His record about his own experiments - is that what you mean?
Q. No, no, say that there were sixty to seventy volunteers; that from them he finally selected ten to fifteen experimental subjects who, by your direction in defining the necessary physical and mental requirements, were between ages of twenty to thirty-five, were generally fit and were mentally normal. Now, in order to determine that fact, he undoubtedly gave them physical and mental examinations. Did you ever see the list of the ten or fifteen men who were finally examined and who were found to have these physical qualifications? Did you ever see it?
A. No, I never saw that list and he didn't show it to me. He just told me, "I have examined these people and they are healthy."
Q. When the ten to fifteen experimental subjects were finally selected, whet then became of the other fifty-five or forty or whatever was left over?
A. I can't tell you that in detail; I don't know what happened to them. Partly, I'm sure that they went back or rather remained at their work detail or wherever they were, and partly, I am sure, Rascher used these people for his own experiments.
Q. You think then that, of the forty-five or fifty who were left, Rascher used some of them for his experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. He told me that he had volunteers for his experiments and that he was taking people who had already volunteered.
Q. I see. Rascher told you that, of those who were not selected for your experiments, he used some of that group for his experiments?
A. Yes, he said that some of these people who had volunteered had been taken by him.
Q. When did he tell you that?
A. I can't tell you that exactly - when it was - but I'm sure it was after he had started his own experiments along with ours.
Q. When did he start his own experiments?
A. I can't give you the exact date since he was performing these experiments during my absence and also at night. At any rate, I heard about that approximately in the middle of April.
Q. Who told you?
A. Rascher himself told me that. He said that he was performing additional experiments.
Q. And that was some time during the middle of April, 1942?
A. Yes.
Q. And he told you at that time that he was using, as his experimental subjects, some of the men who had originally volunteered?
A. He said that he had a number of experimental subjects who partly had been sentenced and were professional criminals, and partly some who had been sentenced to death.
Q. I know all about that, but in April, 1942, he told you that he was using some of that original seventy to sixty men who had volunteered for your experiments but who had not been selected?
A. I cannot tell that exactly. These persons didn't volunteer principally for our experiments, but made themselves available for experiments, generally speaking.
Q. I understand, and of that seventy to sixty you found fifteen to ten who had the physical and mental attributes for your experiments? Is that correct?
Q. Well, there may have been more in that group who had the same attributes, I don't know that. I think there were about thirty or forty in that age group but I cannot tell you that exactly.
Q. Did Rascher ever tell you that?
A. No, Rascher didn't give me any details about his affairs.
Q. Then you don't know whether the men he used for his private experiments possessed the physical and mental requirements laid down by you and Ruff or not, do you?
A. No, I cannot say that in every case.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 5 May 1947.)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HANS ROMBERG - Resumed EXAMINATION BY THE COURT (Continued) BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Dr. Romberg, in the conduct of your tests in the Ruff, Romberg, Rascher experiment, what data or information was it necessary for you to record in regard to each test in order to get a true picture of that test?
A. In the experiments involving a relatively low altitude, the experimental subjects themselves wrote numbers from 1000 on up, or wrote their names. In experiments involving higher altitudes or in the little chamber, was difficult to write, there was a sort of telephonic connection with the experimental subject. The subject had earphones on and had a microphone so that one was able to ascertain how he reacted when spoken to, and so that one could answer certain questions, questions about their mental condition, whether they wore perfectly clear, and so forth. Also, and this is very important, they were obliged to pull the parachute release on their own initiative without being told to, thus proving that they were completely in possession of their faculties, and they recognized the situation in which they found themselves.
Q. And all of that data or informatin then was recorded by you and preserved?
A., Yes, that was written down.
Q. Upon what was it written?
A. Usually during the experiment it was written on a piece of paper.
Sometimes it was written directly into the record, otherwise, it was entered in the record after the experiment, also the numbers and names, the writing tests, that the experimental subjects conducted while in the chamber, were preserved.
Q. In other words you preserved the name of the experimental subject, the day and hour, I suppose, upon which the test was made, and his reactions during the course of the test. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So that when you finished with your series of experiments you could look at this record, you could tell the name of each experimental subject, the date and time upon wnich he had been subjected to an experiment and his reactions during the course of each separate test, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is so'.
Q. Who recorded that information?
A. During the experiment itself Rascher or myself wrote down these individual data, we made notes regarding the time when the person recovered consciousness and these were the data on which the report was subsequently worked out.
Q. And that course of procedure was followed throughout the entire course of the 200 to 300 tests?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the 200 to 300 tests you used 10 to 15 selected volunteer subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. And for the 200 to 300 tests you always used the same 10 or 15 subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. And each time an experimental subject would be presented to you or to Rascher in your presence for the conduct of the Ruff - Romberg experiments, I suppose you either asked him his name or ascertained his name from the record so that you could compare the data for the test on the particular day with the previous tests, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Aid when you had finished the 200 or 300 tests you then were in a position to ascertain over the course of the experiment how many tests each volunteer had undergone?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. And it was from those separate lists as to each experimental subject, it was from those that you made your recommendations to higher authority for leniency for the experimental subjects?
A. Recommendations for leniency were not made by us, at least not by myself. This was a matter which Himmler had arrogated to himself from the very beginning. We of the DVL had no influence on this.
Q. How would Himmler know who to extend lienency to unless somebody gave him the names of the experimental subjects who had successfully completed the tests?
A. There was certainly the camp card index file on all those who participated in the experiments. These people had moved and moreover lived in separate barracks so that their manes could at any time be ascertained. The intermediary who had contact with the camp commander and with Himmler and who had received the authority from Himmler was Rascher. We had no direct contact with Himmler, written or otherwise.
Q. Then that was a matter that was left, so far as you and Ruff were concerned, that was left to Dr. Rascher?
A. Yes, he was the one who from the very beginning had received the authority and permission from Himmler.
Q. Dr. Romberg, how many test runs on experimental subjects had you completed when to your knowledge Rascher began his first independent experiment under his separate order from Himmler?
A. About half of them. That would be roughly one hundred or perhaps a little more than a hundred experiments.
Q. What was the approximate date upon which you gained knowledge that Rascher was conducting independent experiments?
A. The beginning or the middle of April, at any rate after Easter of 1942.
Q. Then from about 11 March 1942 to the middle of April 1942 you had run a little more than one hundred of the two hundred or three hundred high altitude tests that you were going to run in your experiments?
A. Of course I can't tell you exactly, but that is what I estimate it to be approximately.
Q. How many test runs on volunteer experimental subjects had you completed when to your knowledge the first death occurred in Rascher's independent experiments under Himmler during the latter part of April 1942? 6993
A. That was the end of April. It might have been as many as 200 roughly, experiments that had been concluded by that time, perhaps even more.
Q. How many test runs had you completed when to your knowledge the second death occurred in Rascher's independent experiments under the separate order of Himmler?
A. That was just at the very end of the experiments were almost through with them and didn't have so many experiments left. We were just doing the last ones at great altitudes.
Q. How many do you think you still had to do?
A. That is very hard to say, but you have to draw a distinction between those that would have been done if the experiments had continued in a normal way and those that we did to bring the series to adequate conclusion. It is specifically mentioned in the report, for example, that out of 21 intended experiments only one was carried out. Consequently you cannot evaluate the conclusions reached as well as if they had been carried out on a great number of persons.
Q. But you don't know how many more experiments or tests you probably had to run after the second death?
A. If we had continued at the same rate as we had intended there would have been another 30 or 40 more, but since the experimental series was limited thereafter less experiments were actually carried out before we reached the end.
Q. Now, I understand that the second death occurred on one day in May and the third death occurred the next day, is that correct?
A. Yes, and that was about the middle of May.
Q. How many test runs did you make on your own experiment after the third death occurred, not how many you had originally started to run, but how many you did actually run?
A. That could only have been very few, because after the third death the chamber was soon taken away, namely on the 19th, so that it might have been another 10.
C. You said this morning that the reason you knew of the death of the second and third, experimental subject in the Rascher test was because of the fact that upon the same day and prior to the deaths you had just finished conducting one of your own Romberg-Rascher experiments, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Exactly what data were you recording at the time Rascher was conducting his experiment in which the second death occurred?
A. I don't quite understand the question, what data I had?
Q. This morning you said, that you were not at the controls at the time the death occurred to the second experimental subject, but that you were somewhere around the low pressure chamber writing up your data, because you had just completed a test, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now what data were you writing up?
A. After the experiments we wrote down the length of time and the altitude and so to speak we drew the curve in which the descents occurred, and then we entered in the book exactly what altitude corresponded to any particular status of the experimental subject. The altitude was measured by a column of quick-silver, while for the practical evaluation we had to know the exact altitude at which the person gained or lost consciousness. Consequently the gague on the column of quick silver had to be translated into terms of altitude and meters. That was the work that had to be done after the experiment.
Q. Where were you doing that work?
A. Usually I sat in the room in the low pressure chamber where the decompression chamber was located. This was a large truck, like a furniture van, and there was an ante-room, and in the end was a bench and a table with the EKG apparatus on it, and sitting on this bench I usually wrote up my notes, and perhaps I referred again to the quick silver barometer if I hadn't gotten some of the figures. That is why I did this work in the low pressure chamber van, but of course not in the chamber itself.