Q. However, if there had been Luftwaffe personnel that had already 1030 (a) been submitted to such experiments, do you think they could understand that, or that they could come to such conclusions that there were cruelties?
A. For everyone who was submitted to such a low pressure chamber, or rather who had seen such a low pressure chamber, the sight of these convulsions and this unconsciousness is known to him from his own experience.
Q. Witness, when did the experiments stop and finish and when was the low pressure chamber sent to Adlershof from Dachau?
A. The low pressure chamber went back to Adlershof about towards the middle or the end of May; in any case, before Whitsuntide, Pentacote.
Q. Later on was this chamber put at the disposal of the SS experiment again?
A. No, later on we had those difficult situations and it was mainly so that the chamber was at Berlin when Rascher went to adlershof in order to write his report. And right at that time I was under a certain pressure. We asked for the chamber, or we got it back from Dachau, saying that we needed it very badly. The chamber was still there. We said, however, that we had to work on it. Some work had to be done on the chamber. I am sure that the chamber was lying around until august before it was used, and I was always afraid that Rascher might show up some day and would notice the chamber there. That he wanted the chamber is known to me. He repeatedly asked me to carry out some more experiments, to go with him, and I also know that according to Dr. Ruff that Himmler turned to Hippke or asked Hippke's assistance in that respect.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions to the witness. He is at the disposal of the Prosecution.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, where did you study medicine?
A. In Berlin and in Innsbruck. I was not a soldier during the war.
Q When did you finish?
1031 (a)
A. I finished my state examination in 1935 in March.
Q. When did you enter the Wehrmacht?
A. I entered the Wehrmacht in 1936-37 for a period of two months. I had my basic training and before the war I had some more training. In the beginning of the war I was under the supervision of the reserve, and during the war I was under the supervision of the reserve, and during the war I was not a soldier.
Q. You were in the medical' department of the German army, were you not?
A. No.
Q. You were always in private practice?
A. I was an employee of the German experimental station for aviation.
Q. And did you take the Hippocratic oath?
A. No, I never took the Hippocratic oat. That was at the time when I finished my examination. That was in Berlin. It was not usual to take that oath, at least not officially.
Q. Where you a member of the party?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join?
A. I joined in May, 1933.
Q. You got in early.
A. Well, yes, I joined the Party when quite a number of people joined the party.
Q. We are talking about the National Socialist Party.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You told the Court that these people who were experimented on in Dachau were people who had been sentenced to death or long jail terms.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. So they didn't have to be somebody that may have been sentenced to death to be experimented on?
A. No, they didn't have to be.
Q. Now, you said a little later -- as a whole they volunteered for these experiments; what do mean by that; some of them did and some of then didn't?
A. I can't remember -- I can't quite remember to have said 'as a whole'.
Q. You may not remember it, but the statements was written down; and don't quibble; what do you mean by it?
A. No, the people always came as volunteers.
Q. Did you ask them when they came?
A. I spoke to a great number of these people, and I asked them personally; and as far as the other experimental subjects were concerned, we had aggreed ever since the beginning; and further more, Rascher told me that they had volunteered, that is.
Q. You didn't ask everybody who came there whether they were a volunteer or not; you know you didn't.
A. No, I didn't say I asked every one of them individually.
Q. You don't know whether they were all volunteers or not, of your own knowledge?
A. Well, I know that all the people I asked were volunteers because they told me so; and as far as the others are concerned, I believed it too, because Rascher told me so, and because we had agreed that with the camp commandant.
Q. You are speaking now of Dr. Rascher, that fine honorable man that killed people, you say. You were afraid later on to let Rascher get back the chambers, you said?
A. Yes, I didn't want him to carry out any more experiments.
Q. When did you first begin to suspect Rascher?
A. How do you mean that?
Q. Well, when did you begin to think that Rascher wasn't an honorable man; you began to worry about him; you said you didn't want to associate with him any more; he was a terrible fellow. When did you first begin to think that?
A. That was towards the end of April, after the death case.
Q. After the death case you say; that was the death case you saw?
A. Yes.
Q. You understood how to work all this equipment, didn't you?
A. What installations do you mean?
Q. The low pressure chamber.
A. Yes.
Q. You were thoroughly familiar with the running of that chamber, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You had experimented on yourself in it, hadn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were connected with the institute for aviation medicine research , weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And some time later, in April, you and Rascher were there in the chamber and saw a man die; and what did you do about it?
A. That death case was reported to Berlin, to Dr. Ruff, by me.
Q. I am not talking about who you reported the death to. What did you do about it when the man was dying? I am asking you what you did.
A. I tried to stop Rascher from doing that, and I drew his attention to the danger that existed, and that, according to my opinion, the experiment should be stopped, but Rascher continued the experiment, so finally, death occurred.
Q. You and Rascher were by the chamber and somebody was there, and you knew all about the equipment, and you watched the indicators and the pressure valve, and you turned to Rascher and said the experiment should be discontinued immediately - the man is going to die. And Rascher didn't do anything, so you stood there and watched him die?
A. I drew Rascher's attention to the fact that there was a danger and that the man could die, and I told him to stop the experiment.
Q. Did he stop it? Answer the question. Did he stop it when you told him to stop it?
A. No.
Q. Did you stop it?
A. I couldn't stop it.
Q. Who did you report this to?
A. To Dr. Ruff.
Q. When?
A. Shortly after that incident. I went to Berlin for that purpose, for that reason, and I told that to Dr. Ruff.
Q. When was this; what was the date?
A. I can't tell you the date exactly; it was probably toward the end of April.
Q. Somebody had died - and all you know is that it was probably toward the end of April?
A. I can't tell you the date exactly.
Q. Who was this man who died? Was he a member of the Luftwaffe?
A. No, he was not a member of the Luftwaffe.
Q. No, you don't experiment on people like that when you are going to kill them. Who was he?
A. That was one of the inmates of the concentration camp.
Q. Did you make any inquiry about who he was afterwards?
A. No, I did not carry out any investigation.
Q. Did you talk to him before he went to the chamber and ask him if he volunteered?
A. I don't remember if I actually asked that man in particular.
Q. You don't know whether he volunteered or not, do you? Answer the Question. Do you know whether or not he volunteered?
A. I only know so far as Rascher told me.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge that the man volunteered? We will stay here all day today and all day tomorrow until you answer that. Don't tell me what Dr. Rascher told you; what do you know?
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I am of the opinion that the way in which Mr. Denney just got excited is not the correct way to do, and I would appreciate if he could somewhat lower his blood pressure.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I apparently got a little more excited about death than Dr. Bergold.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, the risk you wish to incur, that is your liability. I think/though that the witness has answered the question when he said that all he knows about it is what Rascher told him.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please.
Q. How many other deaths do you know about that took place in Dachau?
A. I know of two other death cases.
Q. Who was responsible for these?
A. Rascher.
Q. Were you there when they took place?
A. Yes, I was present.
Q. Did you warn him in those cases?
A. Before the experiment and during the experiment I couldn't quite realize that this would have been a lethal case, and, therefore, I did not warn him before the beginning of the experiment.
Q. Did you warn him during the experiment?
A. During the experiments I always observed the limit and I also warned Rascher to that effect, and I told him to be careful.
Q. Answer the question, witness. During the experiments did you warn him that the people were going to die?
A. I can't remember these experiments very well.
Q. You remember very well that in the first case, the case of the tailor, that you warned him there, and then you went to Berlin and reported to Dr. Ruff because you were so shocked by it; and now, at a later date, you tell me deaths have occurred. Did you warn him during these experiments?
A. Well, I would like to come back to the question; first, you said I mentioned here a tailor who had died. I don't know that; I don't even know if it was a tailor.
Q. I didn't say that you said it was a tailor. I didn't say he was a tailor. Somebody else said it was a tailor. I don't mean to say to you that you said anything about a tailor. We will call it experimental death number one, and let's not argue about that. Tell the Court in this second death did you tell Rascher to stop.
A. Well, yes, I am sure I told him that, if I could actually see that the experiments would be lethal. In other words, that the critical limit was attained, and that the experiment had to be stopped.
Q. You understood all the gadgets that were in the chamber, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were a medical man who was specializing in this work?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had seen somebody die when Rascher was working on him?
A. Yes.
Q. But you don't know whether or not you told him to stop?
A. As far as I can remember, the death that occurred was also very surprising to me, but I am sure that I always warned Rascher if the critical limit was actually reached.
Q Then if Rascher did nothing, what did you do?
A I told him that we should slow down now. However, Rascher hesitated a little longer, so that all of a sudden death occurred.
Q You did not try to stop him?
A Well, I did try to make him stop in so far as I drew his attention to the fact there was danger that death might occur, I also reported that to Dr. Ruff.
Q How big a man was Rascher?
A Well, maybe he was a little bit smaller than I was.
Q He was not any giant, was he?
A No.
Q Not one of those perfect specimens of Nordics, six feet six, and two-hundred and fifty pounds?
A No.
Q Whom did you report these deaths to?
A I reported these death cases to Dr. Ruff also.
Q Did you go to Berlin to see him?
A I don't remember if at that time I was in Berlin, or if I reported it to him by telephone. I then discussed the matter with him personally.
Q Who was in charge of that place down there, you or Rascher?
A The whole arrangement of experiments, orientation, and the producing of experimental subjects I know of, and of directional questions were under the supervision of Rascher upon Himmler's orders.
Q These last deaths that you saw, when did they occur?
A They occurred early in May.
Q And how many of them were there?
A Two of them.
Q On the same day?
A No. I think they occurred on different days, two different days.
Q How many days between the first death you saw, the one we talked about around the first of April, and the second death?
AAt that time I was in Berlin.
Q How many days elapsed between the first death that you mentioned in April, and the second one that you mentioned sometime in May? I don't care whether you were in Berlin or Garmisch?
1039A
A Well, I want to say that at that time I was in Berlin. It must have been a lapse of about fourteen days. Fourteen days.
Q Fourteen days between the first death and the second one. How many days between the second death and the third one?
AApproximately there was a pretty short time. Their sequence was rather short.
Q Well, how many days?
A Well, maybe there might have been even one day after the other, or the following day. In any case they were very close together.
Q Now when the second death occurred, did you report that right away, or Aid you wait until the third death?
A I can not remember that exactly. In any case I immediately reported it to Ruff.
Q But you don't know whether you reported the second death individually, or waited until the third one, and then reported them both?
A No, I don't remember that any longer.
Q Were these throe occasions the first time you had ever seen anybody die, witness?
A No, of course, in the hospital I had seen more cases of people who died.
Q Now, when Rascher told you to keep this business of deaths a. secret, this was shortly after the death of the first subject. You recall that, that he told you that?
A He did not tell me that after the death case, but that he told me that ever since the beginning; namely, he showed me that telegram which was sent to him by Himmler, and the telegram came in on that at the end of February where Himmler demanded absolute secrecy.
Q You tell the Court that "Rascher had death cases in my presence, even though I objected, and I asked Rascher why he did it, and he said Himmler had ordered it. He told me to keep it a secret, and I signed a paper to the effect that everything that went on would be a secret."?
A I did not say that with direct respect to that death case. I said that a telegram came at the beginning, and I also mentioned the signature. Rascher, however, repeatedly stressed the point that these experiments had been ordered of him by Himmler and that it was none of my business.
Q These last two experimental subjects who died, did you ask them whether or not they had volunteered?
A I can not remember all of that in detail. However, I believe that one of the two said that previously that he wanted to be experimented on.
Q Did he tell you that?
A No. He did not tell me personally, but he said that to Rascher and I was standing by and I heard him do it.
Q Did it occur to you that he might ask the other one?
A If I had known that the man would have died, then I am sure I would have asked him.
Q Well, you had the first experiment in April, then you were in Berlin for two weeks, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Then you came back and then the first experiment took place in Dachau after you got back, whenever it was, did anybody die in these experiments?
A You mean during those first experiments we had?
Q Yes.
AAs I have mentioned before, no.
Q You told the Court that the EKG, the electric cardiogram, shows any damage to the human body; you did not mean that, did you?
A I said with respect to the heart, damage to the heart.
Q It does not show any damage to the human body, does it?
A Well, other damage could be seen during the general examination. The heart examination is the one that is very difficult, so that, of course, necessitates the electric cardiogram must be used.
Q Does the electric cardiogram show damage to the human body?
A It only shows damage to the heart.
Q Does an electric cardiogram show damage to the human body, answer the question?
1041 a
THE PRESIDENT: I think he answered the question. At any rate the Tribunal understands it.
MR. DENNEY: Very well, Your Honor.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Do you know whether or not reports were sent on by Ruff so far as these deaths were concerned?
AAt that time when I was in Berlin he told me he wanted to pass them on, and, of course, he would show it, and I am sure that he did it.
Q Whom did you report to there, Ruff?
AAt that time without knowing for example, I only took it that they went to Hippke.
Q Well, Hippke was Ruff's superior, wasn't he?
A The superior relationship is a little difficult to explain in this case. He was only his superior as far as air medical research was concerned. He was not a direct military supervisor or superior.
Q. Well, this was an air medical question, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q Do you know of any other deaths that occurred down there in these experiments which you did not see?
A Later on I learned that Rascher had more death cases.
Q When did you find that out?
A The other experimental subjects told me that when the experiments took an end. In other words, they said they were glad all the chambers would be taken away now. Not because of them personally but because of research that would cause more death cases by Rascher.
Q When was that?
AAs I mentioned before, it was at the termination of the experiments; in other words, when the chamber was removed.
Q And when do you say the chamber was removed?
A Towards the end of May.
Q What year?
A 1942, '42.
Q Now, going back to this business of the showing of a film at the Air Ministry in Berlin, where were you when you got a letter saying that on 11 September 1942 there would be a film showing for Field Marshal Milch?
A I was on leave at that time. I was at the Baltic Sea.
Q And the letter reached you sometime late in August or early in September?
A Yes, that is about correct.
Q And then pursuant to that letter you went to Berlin?
A No, it wasn't that I had to break up my leave for that reason, but as far as I can remember, my leave was over and I drove back to Berlin. However, at that time I already knew that that film show would take place.
Q And when you were in Berlin Colonel Pendele called you to confirm the showing?
A I can't remember everything that happened in detail. However, from this marginal note which I wrote myself I think I can remember that everything I said is correct. In other words, that Colonel Pendele called me up and he told me that the film show would take place on that date.
Q At the Air Ministry in Berlin?
A No, my office was in Adlershof.
Q Well, where was the film shown?
AAt the Air Ministry.
Q He called you at Adlershof and told you to be over at the Air Ministry to show the film?
A No, Colonel Pendele did not come to see me at Adlershof. He just told me by telephone.
1043A
Q That's all I said.
A I thought that you said that he came to Adlershof.
Q About these last two people that were experimented on that died, were they members of the Luftwaffe?
A No.
Q Do you know who they were?
A They were also concentration camp inmates.
Q You don't know whether or not they had been condemned to death or only to long periods of imprisonment?
A Rascher told me that they had been condemned to death.
Q You certainly got a lot of information from Rascher.
A Yes, I always asked him about these things, and he told me that. Furthermore, Rascher was he who was the so-called boss in Dachau.
Q I just have one or two more questions. Do you remember being interrogated here in Nurnberg by representatives of the prosecution?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall saying in your interrogation that nine deaths had occurred on a certain day in March when you were away from Dachau, in Berlin?
A Yes, I was told that. During my first examination, after my arrest they told me that I had mentioned that. At that time I said that this was not possible until later on I found out that on that particular day I was in Berlin. It was quite a coincidence that I remembered this date exactly, and the fact was that I had to go to Berlin because of the birth of a child and for that reason I could remember the date exactly.
Q When did you write this report that was submitted here?
A This report was written in June.
Q 1942.
A Yes, June '42.
