Q Then if Rascher did nothing, what did you do?
A I told him that we should slow down now. However, Rascher hesitated a little longer, so that all of a sudden death occurred.
Q You did not try to stop him?
A Well, I did try to make him stop in so far as I drew his attention to the fact there was danger that death might occur, I also reported that to Dr. Ruff.
Q How big a man was Rascher?
A Well, maybe he was a little bit smaller than I was.
Q He was not any giant, was he?
A No.
Q Not one of those perfect specimens of Nordics, six feet six, and two-hundred and fifty pounds?
A No.
Q Whom did you report these deaths to?
A I reported these death cases to Dr. Ruff also.
Q Did you go to Berlin to see him?
A I don't remember if at that time I was in Berlin, or if I reported it to him by telephone. I then discussed the matter with him personally.
Q Who was in charge of that place down there, you or Rascher?
A The whole arrangement of experiments, orientation, and the producing of experimental subjects I know of, and of directional questions were under the supervision of Rascher upon Himmler's orders.
Q These last deaths that you saw, when did they occur?
A They occurred early in May.
Q And how many of them were there?
A Two of them.
Q On the same day?
A No. I think they occurred on different days, two different days.
Q How many days between the first death you saw, the one we talked about around the first of April, and the second death?
AAt that time I was in Berlin.
Q How many days elapsed between the first death that you mentioned in April, and the second one that you mentioned sometime in May? I don't care whether you were in Berlin or Garmisch?
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A Well, I want to say that at that time I was in Berlin. It must have been a lapse of about fourteen days. Fourteen days.
Q Fourteen days between the first death and the second one. How many days between the second death and the third one?
AApproximately there was a pretty short time. Their sequence was rather short.
Q Well, how many days?
A Well, maybe there might have been even one day after the other, or the following day. In any case they were very close together.
Q Now when the second death occurred, did you report that right away, or Aid you wait until the third death?
A I can not remember that exactly. In any case I immediately reported it to Ruff.
Q But you don't know whether you reported the second death individually, or waited until the third one, and then reported them both?
A No, I don't remember that any longer.
Q Were these throe occasions the first time you had ever seen anybody die, witness?
A No, of course, in the hospital I had seen more cases of people who died.
Q Now, when Rascher told you to keep this business of deaths a. secret, this was shortly after the death of the first subject. You recall that, that he told you that?
A He did not tell me that after the death case, but that he told me that ever since the beginning; namely, he showed me that telegram which was sent to him by Himmler, and the telegram came in on that at the end of February where Himmler demanded absolute secrecy.
Q You tell the Court that "Rascher had death cases in my presence, even though I objected, and I asked Rascher why he did it, and he said Himmler had ordered it. He told me to keep it a secret, and I signed a paper to the effect that everything that went on would be a secret."?
A I did not say that with direct respect to that death case. I said that a telegram came at the beginning, and I also mentioned the signature. Rascher, however, repeatedly stressed the point that these experiments had been ordered of him by Himmler and that it was none of my business.
Q These last two experimental subjects who died, did you ask them whether or not they had volunteered?
A I can not remember all of that in detail. However, I believe that one of the two said that previously that he wanted to be experimented on.
Q Did he tell you that?
A No. He did not tell me personally, but he said that to Rascher and I was standing by and I heard him do it.
Q Did it occur to you that he might ask the other one?
A If I had known that the man would have died, then I am sure I would have asked him.
Q Well, you had the first experiment in April, then you were in Berlin for two weeks, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Then you came back and then the first experiment took place in Dachau after you got back, whenever it was, did anybody die in these experiments?
A You mean during those first experiments we had?
Q Yes.
AAs I have mentioned before, no.
Q You told the Court that the EKG, the electric cardiogram, shows any damage to the human body; you did not mean that, did you?
A I said with respect to the heart, damage to the heart.
Q It does not show any damage to the human body, does it?
A Well, other damage could be seen during the general examination. The heart examination is the one that is very difficult, so that, of course, necessitates the electric cardiogram must be used.
Q Does the electric cardiogram show damage to the human body?
A It only shows damage to the heart.
Q Does an electric cardiogram show damage to the human body, answer the question?
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THE PRESIDENT: I think he answered the question. At any rate the Tribunal understands it.
MR. DENNEY: Very well, Your Honor.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Do you know whether or not reports were sent on by Ruff so far as these deaths were concerned?
AAt that time when I was in Berlin he told me he wanted to pass them on, and, of course, he would show it, and I am sure that he did it.
Q Whom did you report to there, Ruff?
AAt that time without knowing for example, I only took it that they went to Hippke.
Q Well, Hippke was Ruff's superior, wasn't he?
A The superior relationship is a little difficult to explain in this case. He was only his superior as far as air medical research was concerned. He was not a direct military supervisor or superior.
Q. Well, this was an air medical question, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q Do you know of any other deaths that occurred down there in these experiments which you did not see?
A Later on I learned that Rascher had more death cases.
Q When did you find that out?
A The other experimental subjects told me that when the experiments took an end. In other words, they said they were glad all the chambers would be taken away now. Not because of them personally but because of research that would cause more death cases by Rascher.
Q When was that?
AAs I mentioned before, it was at the termination of the experiments; in other words, when the chamber was removed.
Q And when do you say the chamber was removed?
A Towards the end of May.
Q What year?
A 1942, '42.
Q Now, going back to this business of the showing of a film at the Air Ministry in Berlin, where were you when you got a letter saying that on 11 September 1942 there would be a film showing for Field Marshal Milch?
A I was on leave at that time. I was at the Baltic Sea.
Q And the letter reached you sometime late in August or early in September?
A Yes, that is about correct.
Q And then pursuant to that letter you went to Berlin?
A No, it wasn't that I had to break up my leave for that reason, but as far as I can remember, my leave was over and I drove back to Berlin. However, at that time I already knew that that film show would take place.
Q And when you were in Berlin Colonel Pendele called you to confirm the showing?
A I can't remember everything that happened in detail. However, from this marginal note which I wrote myself I think I can remember that everything I said is correct. In other words, that Colonel Pendele called me up and he told me that the film show would take place on that date.
Q At the Air Ministry in Berlin?
A No, my office was in Adlershof.
Q Well, where was the film shown?
AAt the Air Ministry.
Q He called you at Adlershof and told you to be over at the Air Ministry to show the film?
A No, Colonel Pendele did not come to see me at Adlershof. He just told me by telephone.
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Q That's all I said.
A I thought that you said that he came to Adlershof.
Q About these last two people that were experimented on that died, were they members of the Luftwaffe?
A No.
Q Do you know who they were?
A They were also concentration camp inmates.
Q You don't know whether or not they had been condemned to death or only to long periods of imprisonment?
A Rascher told me that they had been condemned to death.
Q You certainly got a lot of information from Rascher.
A Yes, I always asked him about these things, and he told me that. Furthermore, Rascher was he who was the so-called boss in Dachau.
Q I just have one or two more questions. Do you remember being interrogated here in Nurnberg by representatives of the prosecution?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall saying in your interrogation that nine deaths had occurred on a certain day in March when you were away from Dachau, in Berlin?
A Yes, I was told that. During my first examination, after my arrest they told me that I had mentioned that. At that time I said that this was not possible until later on I found out that on that particular day I was in Berlin. It was quite a coincidence that I remembered this date exactly, and the fact was that I had to go to Berlin because of the birth of a child and for that reason I could remember the date exactly.
Q When did you write this report that was submitted here?
A This report was written in June.
Q 1942.
A Yes, June '42.
Q Did you take part in the conference in Nurnberg on October 26 and 27, 1942 with reference to aviation medicine?
Q Did you give a talk there?
A No.
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Q Do you know whether or not they had deaths in the freezing experiments at Dachau?
A Yes, I do now, of course.
Q Did you know it at the time?
A During that discussion, during that oral report that I heard at Nurnberg, it could be clearly understood.
Q That they had had deaths at Dachau during the experiments?
A Yes, in any case it became clear to me; that is, I could understand from these remarks that Rascher made at the time at Nurnberg that these experiments had taken place in the concentration camp and on the other hand they spoke of measurements which were registered at the very end or after the death of the experimental subject so that it became very evident to me that deaths had occurred.
Q Did you tell anybody about it?
A Well, I think I spoke to Dr. Ruff concerning this matter. I don't remember if I ever spoke to anybody else about it.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, there are no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Witness, after the subjects had died as a result of the experiments in Dachau, did you and Rascher perform an autopsy upon one of the persons of any of these victims?
A I was present during one of the autopsies. I did not carry out the autopsy myself.
Q Did you assist in it?
A No, I just watched them.
Q Was that the first one or the second one or the third one that you saw done?
A I can't tell you that with certainty.
Q. Did you make a report on the autopsy?
A No.
Q Why didn't you put in your report of these experiments that you made on the 15th of June that you had seen three people die?
A These were experiments which were absolutely outside the framework of our experiments; in other words, experiments which were not in the interest of the Luftwaffe and which I carried out personally. They were experiments which, as Rascher said, had been ordered by Himmler personally and which only concerned him and nobody else.
Q Would it be important to the Luftwaffe to know the extreme altitudes and pressure that these people could go through with before they died?
A No, that was of no importance. Our task was absolutely clear. The problem was if from pressurized planes people could be saved from an altitude of twenty kilometers, and this task was a series of the experiments which we had carried out before on ourselves.
Q What was the nationality of the subjects?
AAs far as I can remember they were all Germans.
Q Any Jews?
A Yes, among the experimental subjects there were also a few Jews.
Q German Jews?
A Well, at least they all spoke German.
Q What were the nationalities of the ones that died from the experiments?
A They were also Germans.
Q Jews?
A I can't tell you that exactly, I believe that one of the two was Jewish.
Q What was the critical limit of these experiments? You spoke of that.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, this translation was really wrong.
The witness did not say, "I think he was a Jew", but he said he was possibly a Jew. That is a difference.
Q (By Judge Phillips) You spoke of the critical limit of those experiments. What was the critical limit of these experiments?
A Of what experiments are you talking? You mean these high altitude experiments?
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Q Yes.
A They were twenty kilometers, twenty to twenty-one kilometers.
Q That was the extreme limit?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our recess, Dr. Bergold.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will now be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I return to the experiments that lead to the death of the experimental subject. You stated to the Tribunal that those were experiments that did not take place for the Luftwaffe, or at any rate, did not fall within the framework of the Luftwaffe experiments, except for these three persons. Did Rascher otherwise carry out special experiments on a special commission from Himmler with their leading cadets, without these leading to death?
A Yes.
Q Is it true in regard to these special experiments that he said to you: "That has nothing to do with you?"
A Yes, but let me add that was specifically said to me. He turned me aside from these experiments.
Q You also stated that you told Rascher your opinion of the other two fatalities. Was this after the return of the low pressure chamber to Adlershof, or before then?
A That I reported it to him, I know. But I do not know any longer whether I did so by phone at the time that I thought the chamber should be removed and then told him more explicitly after my return to Berlin, or whether in the meantime I was once in Berlin and told him face to face then.
Q You said that Colonel Pendele had called you up and had informed you of the time that the film was to be shown.
A Yes.
Q Did you then meet Colonel Pendele personally later on the 11th of October?
A Yes, I did speak with him.
MR DENNEY: If your Honor please, the translation came through, "the 11th of October." I believe it should be the "11th of September."
THE INTERPRETER: Correction; 11th of September.
BY MR BERGOLD:
Q You have stated that you made a memorandum about this; is that correct?
A Yes. I have to tell how this memo came about. After this film was shown, since things had been going along a little too rapidly here, and on so large a scale, Rascher was outraged and immediately called Sievers of the Ahnenerbe up and told him this, but Sievers was about to go on a trip and had no time, did not think the matter so important anyway. But he did ask to sec Rascher at the station, I think it was the Lehrter station from where he was about to leave. I spoke with Rascher and also with Sievers. Sievers didn't take the situation as seriously as Rascher portrayed it and said that Romberg should draw up some report as to how this had actually been, and that should be sent to me. Then I did so later, and that is the memo.
randum that I gave Sievers for his orientation.
Q Witness, you spoke previously of new fatalities that Rascher had on his conscience -- nine deaths. Your answer did not make it entirely clear at what time you found out about these. Was that during the experiments or only later?
A No, as I said, that was during the breakup of the work with the chamber.
Q Then the prisoners told you of these nine deaths?
A They told me that they were- glad that that chamber was out of the way finally, because all sorts of things had happened in connection with it. I asked what they meant and they told me, without however telling me the number precisely. I think they said something like five to ten casualties.
Q You then spoke of the freezing conference in Nurenberg and said that to you it was apparent that casualties had occurred in these experiments. That expression "to you" does that mean that others less informed could not have recognized that at first sight?
A The situation was that Holzloehner spoke in his report of human beings who had been saved at sea and on whom measurements could be carried out. That seemed like an innocent matter externally, because it was generally known that in sea distress cases that there were many fatalities. No one paid too much attention to that, and only after Rascher rose after the report and spoke in a rather disconnected fashion of these experiments, that Himmler, namely, had approved them and that these were to be regarded as top military secret, or top secret, then it must have become clear to many that these were experiments on prisoners, or at least experiments authorized by Himmler. But to what extent the connection with the previous report was drawn, that I do not know. I can only speak of what I know personally.
Q In other words you mean that Holzloehner's report did not allow it to be clearly seen without further ado?
A No, I do not believe it could be seen from his report.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. Your Honors, I should just like to remind you that this report of Holzloehners was submitted to you by me as an exhibit and I pointed out to the Court at that time that a lay person could not deduce from that report, particularly from the words "saved at sea" that these were experiments with fatal consequences.
No further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: No, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal may remove this witness.
DR. BERGOLD: I ask that I be permitted to call the witness Sievers.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal will bring to the Tribunal the witness Wolfram Sievers.
WOLFRAM SIEVERS: A witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will advise this witness that he may refuse to answer any question if that answer would tend to incriminate or degrade him.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, speak slowly please, and furthermore I ask you to pause after every question of mine before beginning your answer, so that the interpreters will be able to translate my questions fast.
Witness, please state your first and last name.
A Wolfram Sievers.
Q When were you born?
A 10 July, 1905, in Hildesheim.
Q What was your last position and rank in Germany?
A I was the Reich business manager of the Ahnenerbe Forschungs and Lehrgemeinschaft and SS Standartenfuehrer of the General SS.
Q Witness, do you know Milch personally?
A I only knew his name.
Q Witness, the Ahnenerbe Forschungs and Lehrgemeinschaft, was this ever subordinate to the Reich Air Ministry, or was it an institute that belonged only to the SS?
A No, it had no connection with the Reich Air Ministry.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I come now to the witness' affidavit, Exhibit 106, NOKW 264 of 19 November 1936. It is in my document book 5b of the prosecution.
MR. DENNEY: Page 131 of the English Document Book 5b, if your Honor please.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, in this affidavit you stated the following: A Fuehrer decree forbade the use of German soldiers for high altitude experiments. When was this decree issued, and to whom?
A I refer here to a communication from Himmler at Easter of 1932 which he made to me at his field headquarters. I myself am not familiar with that Fuehrer decree, but Himmler spoke to me of it.
Q Witness, you then stated in this affidavit, Milch must have been informed of Dr. Rascher's experiments. This is evident from the correspondence between Milch and Wolf. My first question now: When did you first hear of this correspondence between Milch and Wolf?
