A Sauckel's reports probably reached Goering and Goering believed we had a large number of workers, and then he said "why don't you with so many workers not produce more?" But an actual fact, we didn't have the workers.
Q Is it known to you that the GL requested foreign labor or was he more keen on German workers?
A Only in order to get increased production we had to concentrate on German workers, skilled specialists.
Q Is it known to you that Milch sought to keep German soldiers in the air armament industry?
A Yes, the General Staff of the Luftwaffe, also the OKW, Milch cleared with the authorities quite frequently in order to keep skilled German workers in the factories, and safeguard then from being called up.
Q Is it known to you also how Milch looked on the Air Armament Industry, did he prefer the fighter arm or the bomber arm, and why he took that attitude?
A Milch was more keen on the defensive idea. You might say from that he was so keen on producing more and more fighters, that is to say the defensive bomb.
Q Did he force foreign workers to lower bombs on aircraft or bomb anti-aircraft guns?
A The GL had no bomber aircraft to begin with. That is entirely up to the troops at the front, and he was not connected with the front in any way.
Q In April 1943 Milch sent a letter to Goering and Sauckel on the increased protection of industry for the guarding of industries in the fire areas, what did he want to achieve by that?
A To increase the protection against enemy air raids, or against sabotage acts.
Q Was that not supervision of foreign workers which he asked for there?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Was Milch in a position to send workers to anybody else at all, into a concentration camp?
1213a into a concentration camp?
A No, he did not have the power for that.
Q Were those comments made known to you which were made at the meetings?
A Yes.
Q Is it right to say the conversation was only limited?
A Yes.
Q And that these reports were circulated only among a restricted number of authorities?
A Yes, only two or three copies, the written records or verbatim reports, were circulated among only a certain number of people.
Q Were these departments under the GL or Central Planning Board?
A I only know the minutes of the GL, the Jaegerstab Amenstab, there were two or four copies each, which were meant only for the Chiefs.
Q These records or minutes once they were drawn up, did Milch check them up when he got them, or did you do so by his orders?
A In some cases, I didn't have the time to read, but only to spot check read reports of meetings which had been taken elsewhere.
Q Is it known to you that these records and minutes are really inaccurate?
A There were certain inaccuracies, yes, in figures for instance, and in names which turned up in the reports. The sense was in the whole correct.
Q Did it happen that when Milch spoke strong political words, were orders not given to omit that statement or put them in a different style?
A Yes, that is true. When Milch expressed indignation to the higher officers, then it was said "you needn't put that in the records."
Q Did it happen people were told "you must change that a little?"
A I would say omit it altogether or put it in a different form.
Q Were you present on the 25th, third month of 1944, when he addressed the Naval Engineers of the Quartermaster?
A Yes.
Q Can you recall that in that speech Milch was particularly strong and critical?
A I believe at that time the topic was to relieve certain material parts.
1214a *************Maloy (ATD)
A I believe at that time the topic was to relieve certain material parts. The troops had complained that many spare parts, small spare parts could not be had and it is well known that the head of a big air factory, for instance when he receives small requests, does not take them out. He must rather relieve the larger requests. And this technic on the part of heads of factories against this method of holding small things back, Milch attacked in his speech and expressed his wish in this matter. For that expression of his indignation I am cure he used strong language on that occasion.
Q Witness, what were the reasons to form the Jaegerstab?
A Speer's Ministry by giving reference for treatment to the task and U-Boat Arm created a disadvantage for the Luftwaffe. Too much material and labor were taken into the Speer Ministry. The Luftwaffe had to be increased in its potential, and at that time Field Marshall Milch conceived the idea, together with Speer, to increase ail production for the Luftwaffe. He borrowed the best men from Speer for this Jaegerstab, a man called Sauer, and this is how it came about in the spring that the Jaegerstab was founded.
Q Who was the real head one under the formal head of the Jaegerstab?
AAt the beginning Field Marshall Milch, for about three or four months, from March to the summer, then he couldn't take part in the meetings much and then Sauer became the command.
Q Wasn't Sauer very active in the Jaegerstab in the beginning?
A Yes, his activities developed.
Q who wanted the air industry to be transferred, was that a Hitler order, the idea of Hitler, or could it have been Goering as well?
A In my opinion it was a Hitler order. I only know the Hitler order.
Q Did the Jaegerstab recruit foreign workers in occupied territories?
A No, that was exclusively the task of the Plenopotentiaries for the Naval assignments.
Q Was Milch in a position to give orders to the OKW, OKH, and OKL?
A No, nobody would allow anyone to interfere with his sphere of office, nor was he superior officer to these departments, no.
DR. BERGOLD: I myself have no more questions to this witness at this point.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, you said that you were with Udet until November, 1941?
A Yes.
Q And thereafter Milch, and you were with Milch up until the end; when was the end?
A I left Milch in the last days of March or early in April 1945.
Q By the way how did Udet die?
A Yes.
Q How?
A He shot himself.
Q Where?
A In Berlin.
Q In the Air Ministry?
A In his private flat.
Q How, you said that Sauckel was completely in charge.
of all labor matters, but the requisitioning of labor for the Air Ministry went through the Office of the Generalluftzeugmeister?
A. We had only report or requests filed, and thereupon we were allocated workers by Sauckel.
Q. So the whole industry would send up to the Generalluftzeugmeister what they would need, and they would consolidate them and forward them to Sauckel, hoping they would get some labor?
A. It was hoped that he would supply the labor.
Q. Now, you said that Milch gave orders with reference to the kindly treatment of the laborers in the aircraft industry, is that right?
A. Yes. I said at that time in the Jaegerstab there was a special department to look after these people.
Q. They wanted to keep them happy and they wanted to keep the production up?
A. They wanted them to do good work.
Q. Because Germany was trying to get some fighter airplanes?
A. Yes.
Q. And he gave orders that these people should be well treated?
A. It wasn't a special order to treat them well, but this was within the organization of facilities that this special department was founded. Additional food, additional tobacco were given to these people.
Q. And these orders came down from the G.L.?
A. Yes, from the G.L.
Q. Now, early in 1941 or sometime around the middle of 1941 when these 100 thousand French workers came on a decree of Goering to work in the air armament, Udet knew about that, didn't he?
A. Yes, that must have been at Udet's time.
Q. Did you know about those 100 thousand workers that came in there?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether or not the defendant knew about them?
A. I don't think so. I can hardly think that Udet would have talked to the Field Marshall about this, for at that time, Milch didn't have to concentrate on armament so much.
Q. On 17th November 1941, do you remember an exodus of 100 thousand French workers back to France?
A. You don't recall that they all went back as soon as Udet died, do you?
Q. No.
Q. Now, these Russian prisoners of War that had been ordered by Goering to work in the airplane industry, that was under Udet too, was it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know about the Russian prisoners of War working in the airplane factory?
A. I could not recall any such thing. I don't think we had Russians in the industry.
Q. You didn't have any Russians in the industry?
A. I cannot say so for certain.
Q. Well, you lived up near Berlin and there were big factories up there where you lived, and you used to see the workers; did you ever see any Russians there?
A. I said before I knew about Russian girls who worked in the factories.
Q. You saw Russian girls there, did you ever see any Russian prisoners of war?
A. I could not recall any prisoners of war, soldiers who were prisoners.
Q. There were other kinds of prisoners of war besides soldiers; you are a soldier and certainly knew what a prisoner of war is?
A. I should say I saw these people work in uniform. If they were prisoners of war would they be in uniform? I saw Russian girls and knew there were Frenchmen there, and I knew there were soldiers,--
Q. You never saw any Russian Prisoners of War workers and as far as you know there never were any?
A. I saw workers in the streets and on the railroad tracks.
Q. But you never saw any Russian prisoners of War working in the airplane industry?
A. I never saw uniformed soldiers in the industry.
Q. As far as you knew none of them ever worked in the industry?
A. I believe not.
Q. At the time that Goering ordered these Russian prisoners of War into Udet, you didn't know about it?
A. No.
Q. Now, you said that reports on workers coming into the industry were made by Sauckel to the Generalluftzauegmeister; how often did these reports come in?
A. On the supply of labor I believe that there were reports quarterly giving figures.
Q. Were these reports broken down into the source of the labor?
A. Do you mean that there were so many French and so many Russian and people from other nations? Do you mean people from Russia, France and other countries?
Q. Yes, where they came from?
A. I believe so. It was said that there were people from France and other countries. That was not my immediate job and therefore I had no records about it, on the question of labor.
Q. You saw the reports that came in with breakdowns of where they came from?
A. But without really taking them in.
Q. You weren't in charge of labor, there was no reason for you to take them in?
A. No, my main task was simply to distribute mail and send each report to the right office.
Q. You don't want the Court to believe you were just a postal clerk, do you?
A. I think the adjutant had to do a little more then distribute mail.
Q. You were a colonel of the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you said that the defendant was never connected with the front in any way, didn't he have a field command at one time during the War?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Where was it, do you recall?
A. In Norway.
Q. He was commander of an air fleet up there?
A. Yes, of an air fleet.
Q. Do you remember which one it was?
A. Air Fleet 5 of Norway.
Q. You also said that Milch had not power to get anybody into a concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Could he have gotten anybody out?
A. He could at the most approach the officers in charge of the concentration camps and ask them to release that man.
Q. Well who would he approach if he wanted to get anybody out?
A. I should think Himmler.
Q. Himmler was in charge of these, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. You know that all during the war that Himmler was head of the concentration camps?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q Did you go to the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?
A To most of them.
Q Well, do you remember how many there were?
A Weekly at first; there may have been hundreds on the whole.
Q And you went to most of them?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever hear the question of foreign labor discussed in the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?
A Oh yes, that was discussed.
Q Did they ever talk about sending laborers to the SS camps or SD camps?
A No.
Q Never any talk about Himmler taking over these laborers who didn't do so well?
AAs I said before that expressions of indignation on the part of Milch as far as the treatment of foreign laborers was concerned did help them; so, therefore, these people were mentioned in the meetings.
Q Oh, they did mention them.
A The treatment of foreign labor, foreign workers, was discussed at the meetings.
Q Did you ever talk about turning them over to Himmler?
A No.
Q No?
A I am sorry; I don't understand the question.
Q You were at most of the meetings, weren't you?
A I did not understand or take in everything at the meetings; I could mention the sense of these meetings.
Q I just asked you simply -- did you ever hear any talk about turning these foreign workers over to Himmler.
A No.
Q Did you go to the Jaegerstab meetings?
A In some cases.
Q Did you ever hear any talk like that there?
A. It is very difficult to differentiate between these GL of Jaegerstab meetings because on both occasions the question of labor of airplane factories and also of the recruitment of labor was mentioned. The Jaegerstab also is a sort of the child of the GL. There were almost the same people who took part in both meetings.
Q. How many people used to go to these meetings of the GL and Jaegerstab meetings?
A. About thirty.
Q. And did the defendant know all those people well?
A. Experts or heads of departments were probably not so well known to him on the whole he knew all these people.
Q. Now, you say he used strong words often in these meetings, and when any of the higher party members was mentioned, they took the expression of the defendant out. Do you remember who he used to talk about?
A. It might have been Goering, or it could have been even Hitler, if somebody said these people up there should realize what they want; whether they wanted bombers or fighters; whether they wanted offensive warfare or defensive warfare. That showed that Milch had a certain judgment.
Q. And then they would take that out of the minutes, and if he expressed himself more strongly, these people were told don't put that in. You were sure nothing got in about Adolph or Hermann; is that right? In a bad way?
A. No.
Q. Now, you talked about this Generalluftzeugmeister speech made on 25 March 1944; and you said that you best could recall that the big subject under discussion there was spare parts.
A. The speech to the quartermasters and naval engineers was the release of the last material reserve of spare parts and reserves.
Q. How many people were at that speech; do you recall?
A. As far as I remember, it was in a small room; there couldn't have been more than about forty.
Q. You don't remember anything else that was talked about at that meeting?
A. The main topic was the release of spare parts and material reserves.
Q You didn't hear anything said about whipping people?
A Certainly not in that meeting.
Q And there was never anything said about 'there is no international law'?
A No.
Q Never any talk about hanging anybody?
A The expression hanging might have been used; that man should be hanged; that man should be shot; that might have been said.
Q I forgot; those are the expressions the defendant always used to use; he always used to say that. Now, did you know a Luftwaffe civilian employee, who is a doctor, whose name is Ruff?
A Not that I know of.
Q Did you know a doctor named Romberg?
A I only heard that name now.
Q Did you know in the Luftwaffe a doctor, who was a member of the Luftwaffe, named Hippke?
A Yes, I knew him.
Q You knew Hippke.
A Yes.
Q Do you ever recall; do you remember over having a conversation with Dr. Ruff in which you arranged for him to come over to the Air Ministry?
A No.
Q Do you recall that a film was shown in the Air Ministry in September, 1942, having to do with high altitude experiments that were being conducted at Dachau?
A I can recall a film on high altitude experiments. when it was shown, where it was taken, where it was shot, I do not know any more. A film was shown on high altitude experiments, where one sees what the experimental person does at altitudes of eight thousand meters; and ten thousand meters he can no longer write. I saw such a film, yes.
Q But you don't remember seeing Dr. Ruff around there.
A Ruff I know; Romberg I cannot remember.
Q Do you remember talking to Ruff about this film on the telephone?
A That is quite possible that I should have talked to Ruff on the quality of the film, on the content of the film.
Q I just asked you if you remember talking to him about it -- about the film.
A I cannot say whether that was Ruff or somebody else.
Q Did you know a doctor named Rascher?
A No.
Q Never heard of Rascher?
A I have heard of him now, yes.
Q Just here for the first time?
A Consciously I heard Rascher's name only now.
Q Don't you remember when you were in the office that there was a lot of correspondence going back and forth about one Siegmund Rascher, a Luftwaffe doctor?
A No.
Q Never saw any of that correspondence?
A No correspondence on Rascher, no.
Q Do you know General Waffen SS Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff?
A I know his name and I know what he locks like, but I don't know him intimately.
Q Do you know what his job was?
A No.
Q You were pretty close to the defendant, weren't you; you were his adjutant.
A Yes, I was his adjutant.
Q And you didn't know Wolff was liaison between Himmler and Milch?
A No. There was no liaison between ourselves and Himmler.
Q There certainly wasn't any between you and Himmler apparently.
Q (Continued) You were never a member of the SS, were you?
A No.
Q Or the SD?
A No.
Q The SA?
A No.
Q NSDAP?
A No.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q You remember a report which came in on the high altitude experiments?
A I believe a report came in--which was distributed later on.
MR. DENNEY: -- go ahead! (pause)
Q Did you prepare a distribution list for it?
A No, I did not.
Q Do you remember now to whom it went?
A No to whom it went, no.
Q Do you remember from whom it came?
A I believe the DVL.
Q Was that the experimental Institute in Berlin?
A Yes.
Q That was the place where they conducted the experiments for the Luftwaffe, the Luftwaffe experimental station?
A The DVL; but we also had these apparatus in our testing stations.
Q Did you know anything about those experiments down at Dachau?
A No, all that I know is that they made experiments, high altitude experiments, there.
Q Do you remember when they made them?
A No, I cannot recall the date. It should have been, according to the report, about 42 or 43.
Q Do you remember anything about freezing experiments down there?
A No.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I come back to the report. Did you know that it came from the DVL itself, or from another office, perhaps from Himmler?
A No, I do not know.
Q How many reports were you getting, one or two?
A I believe I received in my office several reports which were distributed later.
Q Did they come altogether, at once?
A I don't know, anymore.
Q Were you always present when he addressed Luftwaffe engineers, or only on certain occasions? The Prosecution said that as far as Luftwaffe engineers were concerned, it should have been handed over to Himmler for his approval. Were, in fact, the orders given by the DVL or -
A --not from us; not from the Luftwaffe.
Q You also said -- you spoke -- about those quarterly reports from Sauckel; did you pass them over to him, to Milch, or to the exports concerned?
A No, only to the experts concerned.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions.
(Pause)
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q As far as the experts were concerned, did you have an order from Milch to arrange this, or where did the order come from?
A No such order came from the Field Marshal. As far as I can remember I was pushed by these people; there were many who were anxious for the Field Marshal to see their work and approve it. And, thereupon, I said, "lot's have the film," within the framework of the technical conversations?
Q Was Milch certain to be present at such technical conversations?
A No. Very often he did not turn up.
Q Was he present when the film was shown?
A Not then; certainly not.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be excused. The Tribunal will take its usual morning recess.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the court room will rise as the Tribunal leaves. I suggest you remain standing until the members of the Court have left the court room.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I would like to call the witness Karl Wolff.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness Karl Wolff to the courtroom.
KARL WOLFF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I would like to ask you to speak slowly. Furthermore, I would like to ask you to pause shortly after my questions so the interpreters may have time to translate it fully.
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, will you give us your first and last name?
A. My first name is Karl. My last name is Wolff, double "f".
Q. When were you born?
A. 1900. I was born on the 13th of May 1900.
Q. What was your rank and position last held within the Wehrmacht or in the Party?
A. At the end of the war I was SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS. My rank was that of commanding general of the Waffen SS. My official position was that of a double Army Commander-in-Chief in Italy, mainly, as highest SS and police Fuehrer or leader in Italy. After September 1943 and after the 26th of July 1944 I was General Plenipotentiary of the German Wehrmacht in Italy. In other words I was a military commander, responsible Commander-in-Chief for the entire German Military Government in Italy. Furthermore, from September 1943 on I was special assistant to the Duce in all questions of the police.
This was upon order of the Fuehrer.
Q Witness, do you know Milch?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Can you recognize him here?
A. That is Feldmarschall Milch (indicating).
DR. BERGOLD: I wish to have the record show that the witness recognizes the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
Q. Witness, what was your position before you took over the command in Italy?
A. May I ask from what year onward you want to know that?
Q. I am interested, particularly, about the time during the war.
A. At the beginning of the war, on the 1st of September 1939, I served as liaison officer for the Waffen SS in the headquarters of the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. I held that position until the 18th of February 1943. After that, the 18th of February 1943, I became severely ill. Therefore, I had to go to Hohenliechen in order to have a difficult operation. After my rehabilitation, I was used in Italy.
Q. In your position during the war did you have any official dealings with Mr. Milch?
A. Yes.
Q. In what connection?
A. During peacetime -- that is, from 1933 on, until 1939 - there was good personal cooperation between Milch and me. All difficulties between the Luftwaffe and the SS during peacetime were handled at personal conferences in a very comradely way on this basis. This usage also was retained during the war. However, this was in a somewhat restricted manner because my time as well as that of Marshal Milch was taken up by official business. Therefore, we saw each other more seldom than during peacetime.
Q. Can your relationship with Milch be considered a friendly one? I ask you this in order to explain the fact that Milch once wrote a letter to you addressing you as "Dear Wolffie".
I think, although it would please me, and although I regard this statement an honor even today, I nevertheless have to correct by calling it a good comradeship only which was shown in a gentlemanly way to me by the older man, because he was about nine years older, and I always lagged far behind in military rank. It was meant in a good way, the way he addressed me, "Dear Wolffie". That was due to the fact that was my nickname. I used this name during the first world war as a young lieutenant in the Hessian guard infantry regiment, Number 115. Everybody knew me under this nickname, all the other chiefs as well as the general of the infantry Ritter Von Epp, whom I assisted as adjutant for quite a while. Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler also knew me by that name. They all addressed me as "Wolffie". So did the highest SS Fuehrers in my branch of service.
Q. Witness, can you remember in 1941 or 1942 the question of experiments in Dachau on concentration camp inmates were to be carried out and that they started to play an important part?
A. Yes, indeed. I remember exactly about these experiments.
Q. Witness, is it correct that in Dachau, apart from these high altitude experiments and all the other medical experiments, additional experiments were carried out?
A. Yes, indeed. In this connection I made a written statement during my examination in London at the London investigation branch File NR. 1436-B, under date of November 21, 1946, that in Dachau Concentration Camp the SS had a porcelain factory at Allach. That is mentioned explicitly in that statement. The culture works of the SS produce even in peacetime, good porcelain. Furthermore, Damascian knife blades were made there, according to an old German tradition in such a manner as to retain the flexibility of the original Damascian blade. I actually saw the products.
Q. That is enough, witness.
A. Furthermore, certain camouflage--screens, jackets, suits, and a number of other items--were manufactured.
Experiments above all on masters of nutrition.