Q Did you go to the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?
A To most of them.
Q Well, do you remember how many there were?
A Weekly at first; there may have been hundreds on the whole.
Q And you went to most of them?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever hear the question of foreign labor discussed in the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?
A Oh yes, that was discussed.
Q Did they ever talk about sending laborers to the SS camps or SD camps?
A No.
Q Never any talk about Himmler taking over these laborers who didn't do so well?
AAs I said before that expressions of indignation on the part of Milch as far as the treatment of foreign laborers was concerned did help them; so, therefore, these people were mentioned in the meetings.
Q Oh, they did mention them.
A The treatment of foreign labor, foreign workers, was discussed at the meetings.
Q Did you ever talk about turning them over to Himmler?
A No.
Q No?
A I am sorry; I don't understand the question.
Q You were at most of the meetings, weren't you?
A I did not understand or take in everything at the meetings; I could mention the sense of these meetings.
Q I just asked you simply -- did you ever hear any talk about turning these foreign workers over to Himmler.
A No.
Q Did you go to the Jaegerstab meetings?
A In some cases.
Q Did you ever hear any talk like that there?
A. It is very difficult to differentiate between these GL of Jaegerstab meetings because on both occasions the question of labor of airplane factories and also of the recruitment of labor was mentioned. The Jaegerstab also is a sort of the child of the GL. There were almost the same people who took part in both meetings.
Q. How many people used to go to these meetings of the GL and Jaegerstab meetings?
A. About thirty.
Q. And did the defendant know all those people well?
A. Experts or heads of departments were probably not so well known to him on the whole he knew all these people.
Q. Now, you say he used strong words often in these meetings, and when any of the higher party members was mentioned, they took the expression of the defendant out. Do you remember who he used to talk about?
A. It might have been Goering, or it could have been even Hitler, if somebody said these people up there should realize what they want; whether they wanted bombers or fighters; whether they wanted offensive warfare or defensive warfare. That showed that Milch had a certain judgment.
Q. And then they would take that out of the minutes, and if he expressed himself more strongly, these people were told don't put that in. You were sure nothing got in about Adolph or Hermann; is that right? In a bad way?
A. No.
Q. Now, you talked about this Generalluftzeugmeister speech made on 25 March 1944; and you said that you best could recall that the big subject under discussion there was spare parts.
A. The speech to the quartermasters and naval engineers was the release of the last material reserve of spare parts and reserves.
Q. How many people were at that speech; do you recall?
A. As far as I remember, it was in a small room; there couldn't have been more than about forty.
Q. You don't remember anything else that was talked about at that meeting?
A. The main topic was the release of spare parts and material reserves.
Q You didn't hear anything said about whipping people?
A Certainly not in that meeting.
Q And there was never anything said about 'there is no international law'?
A No.
Q Never any talk about hanging anybody?
A The expression hanging might have been used; that man should be hanged; that man should be shot; that might have been said.
Q I forgot; those are the expressions the defendant always used to use; he always used to say that. Now, did you know a Luftwaffe civilian employee, who is a doctor, whose name is Ruff?
A Not that I know of.
Q Did you know a doctor named Romberg?
A I only heard that name now.
Q Did you know in the Luftwaffe a doctor, who was a member of the Luftwaffe, named Hippke?
A Yes, I knew him.
Q You knew Hippke.
A Yes.
Q Do you ever recall; do you remember over having a conversation with Dr. Ruff in which you arranged for him to come over to the Air Ministry?
A No.
Q Do you recall that a film was shown in the Air Ministry in September, 1942, having to do with high altitude experiments that were being conducted at Dachau?
A I can recall a film on high altitude experiments. when it was shown, where it was taken, where it was shot, I do not know any more. A film was shown on high altitude experiments, where one sees what the experimental person does at altitudes of eight thousand meters; and ten thousand meters he can no longer write. I saw such a film, yes.
Q But you don't remember seeing Dr. Ruff around there.
A Ruff I know; Romberg I cannot remember.
Q Do you remember talking to Ruff about this film on the telephone?
A That is quite possible that I should have talked to Ruff on the quality of the film, on the content of the film.
Q I just asked you if you remember talking to him about it -- about the film.
A I cannot say whether that was Ruff or somebody else.
Q Did you know a doctor named Rascher?
A No.
Q Never heard of Rascher?
A I have heard of him now, yes.
Q Just here for the first time?
A Consciously I heard Rascher's name only now.
Q Don't you remember when you were in the office that there was a lot of correspondence going back and forth about one Siegmund Rascher, a Luftwaffe doctor?
A No.
Q Never saw any of that correspondence?
A No correspondence on Rascher, no.
Q Do you know General Waffen SS Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff?
A I know his name and I know what he locks like, but I don't know him intimately.
Q Do you know what his job was?
A No.
Q You were pretty close to the defendant, weren't you; you were his adjutant.
A Yes, I was his adjutant.
Q And you didn't know Wolff was liaison between Himmler and Milch?
A No. There was no liaison between ourselves and Himmler.
Q There certainly wasn't any between you and Himmler apparently.
Q (Continued) You were never a member of the SS, were you?
A No.
Q Or the SD?
A No.
Q The SA?
A No.
Q NSDAP?
A No.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q You remember a report which came in on the high altitude experiments?
A I believe a report came in--which was distributed later on.
MR. DENNEY: -- go ahead! (pause)
Q Did you prepare a distribution list for it?
A No, I did not.
Q Do you remember now to whom it went?
A No to whom it went, no.
Q Do you remember from whom it came?
A I believe the DVL.
Q Was that the experimental Institute in Berlin?
A Yes.
Q That was the place where they conducted the experiments for the Luftwaffe, the Luftwaffe experimental station?
A The DVL; but we also had these apparatus in our testing stations.
Q Did you know anything about those experiments down at Dachau?
A No, all that I know is that they made experiments, high altitude experiments, there.
Q Do you remember when they made them?
A No, I cannot recall the date. It should have been, according to the report, about 42 or 43.
Q Do you remember anything about freezing experiments down there?
A No.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I come back to the report. Did you know that it came from the DVL itself, or from another office, perhaps from Himmler?
A No, I do not know.
Q How many reports were you getting, one or two?
A I believe I received in my office several reports which were distributed later.
Q Did they come altogether, at once?
A I don't know, anymore.
Q Were you always present when he addressed Luftwaffe engineers, or only on certain occasions? The Prosecution said that as far as Luftwaffe engineers were concerned, it should have been handed over to Himmler for his approval. Were, in fact, the orders given by the DVL or -
A --not from us; not from the Luftwaffe.
Q You also said -- you spoke -- about those quarterly reports from Sauckel; did you pass them over to him, to Milch, or to the exports concerned?
A No, only to the experts concerned.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions.
(Pause)
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q As far as the experts were concerned, did you have an order from Milch to arrange this, or where did the order come from?
A No such order came from the Field Marshal. As far as I can remember I was pushed by these people; there were many who were anxious for the Field Marshal to see their work and approve it. And, thereupon, I said, "lot's have the film," within the framework of the technical conversations?
Q Was Milch certain to be present at such technical conversations?
A No. Very often he did not turn up.
Q Was he present when the film was shown?
A Not then; certainly not.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be excused. The Tribunal will take its usual morning recess.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the court room will rise as the Tribunal leaves. I suggest you remain standing until the members of the Court have left the court room.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I would like to call the witness Karl Wolff.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness Karl Wolff to the courtroom.
KARL WOLFF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I would like to ask you to speak slowly. Furthermore, I would like to ask you to pause shortly after my questions so the interpreters may have time to translate it fully.
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, will you give us your first and last name?
A. My first name is Karl. My last name is Wolff, double "f".
Q. When were you born?
A. 1900. I was born on the 13th of May 1900.
Q. What was your rank and position last held within the Wehrmacht or in the Party?
A. At the end of the war I was SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS. My rank was that of commanding general of the Waffen SS. My official position was that of a double Army Commander-in-Chief in Italy, mainly, as highest SS and police Fuehrer or leader in Italy. After September 1943 and after the 26th of July 1944 I was General Plenipotentiary of the German Wehrmacht in Italy. In other words I was a military commander, responsible Commander-in-Chief for the entire German Military Government in Italy. Furthermore, from September 1943 on I was special assistant to the Duce in all questions of the police.
This was upon order of the Fuehrer.
Q Witness, do you know Milch?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Can you recognize him here?
A. That is Feldmarschall Milch (indicating).
DR. BERGOLD: I wish to have the record show that the witness recognizes the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
Q. Witness, what was your position before you took over the command in Italy?
A. May I ask from what year onward you want to know that?
Q. I am interested, particularly, about the time during the war.
A. At the beginning of the war, on the 1st of September 1939, I served as liaison officer for the Waffen SS in the headquarters of the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. I held that position until the 18th of February 1943. After that, the 18th of February 1943, I became severely ill. Therefore, I had to go to Hohenliechen in order to have a difficult operation. After my rehabilitation, I was used in Italy.
Q. In your position during the war did you have any official dealings with Mr. Milch?
A. Yes.
Q. In what connection?
A. During peacetime -- that is, from 1933 on, until 1939 - there was good personal cooperation between Milch and me. All difficulties between the Luftwaffe and the SS during peacetime were handled at personal conferences in a very comradely way on this basis. This usage also was retained during the war. However, this was in a somewhat restricted manner because my time as well as that of Marshal Milch was taken up by official business. Therefore, we saw each other more seldom than during peacetime.
Q. Can your relationship with Milch be considered a friendly one? I ask you this in order to explain the fact that Milch once wrote a letter to you addressing you as "Dear Wolffie".
I think, although it would please me, and although I regard this statement an honor even today, I nevertheless have to correct by calling it a good comradeship only which was shown in a gentlemanly way to me by the older man, because he was about nine years older, and I always lagged far behind in military rank. It was meant in a good way, the way he addressed me, "Dear Wolffie". That was due to the fact that was my nickname. I used this name during the first world war as a young lieutenant in the Hessian guard infantry regiment, Number 115. Everybody knew me under this nickname, all the other chiefs as well as the general of the infantry Ritter Von Epp, whom I assisted as adjutant for quite a while. Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler also knew me by that name. They all addressed me as "Wolffie". So did the highest SS Fuehrers in my branch of service.
Q. Witness, can you remember in 1941 or 1942 the question of experiments in Dachau on concentration camp inmates were to be carried out and that they started to play an important part?
A. Yes, indeed. I remember exactly about these experiments.
Q. Witness, is it correct that in Dachau, apart from these high altitude experiments and all the other medical experiments, additional experiments were carried out?
A. Yes, indeed. In this connection I made a written statement during my examination in London at the London investigation branch File NR. 1436-B, under date of November 21, 1946, that in Dachau Concentration Camp the SS had a porcelain factory at Allach. That is mentioned explicitly in that statement. The culture works of the SS produce even in peacetime, good porcelain. Furthermore, Damascian knife blades were made there, according to an old German tradition in such a manner as to retain the flexibility of the original Damascian blade. I actually saw the products.
Q. That is enough, witness.
A. Furthermore, certain camouflage--screens, jackets, suits, and a number of other items--were manufactured.
Experiments above all on masters of nutrition.
Q Witness, what do you know about these experiments, high altitude experiments or freezing experiments? What did you learn about these experiments, witness?
A This also is mentioned precisely in the statement which I made and signed the 21st November, 1946. One day, as far as I can remember, I shall make a certain limitation, to the effect I cannot remember the exact date, without taking a look at my soldiers' diary, it was at the end of February, 1942, I believe immediately after the Party Foundation Day in Munich, in 1943, the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler asked me to take him to what they called the low pressure or high altitude experiments, which were being carried out in Dachau and to accompany him to those experiments.
Q Just one second witness. I would like to point out that the date was 1942 and not 1943.
A 1942 -- 2
Q Thank you.
A Do you wish me to mention everything that is in that statement?
Q No, that is not necessary. Continue.
A I accompanied Himmler to these experiments which were carried out on approximately ten inmates; these experiments were carried out in the so-called low pressure chamber, and I witnessed them myself. Respectively, I could observe the experiments through that peeping hole which was placed in those experimental low pressure chambers. As I mentioned in my written statement, these experiments were but by no means difficult indeed. They lasted just a few minutes depending upon the altitude from which point this artificial jump was supposed to be executed, namely, a lower altitude, namely from three thousand meters on, and this extended to about six thousand, nine thousand, eleven thousand, twelve thousand, and as far as I am sure, I can remember thirteen thousand meters was the highest altitude reached. In other words, the whole experiments took one, two or at the utmost three minutes. After about five years now, that happened five years ago, and, therefore, it is very difficult to remember the exact length of time of the experiment, but I am sure this statement is sufficient.
Q Witness, what were told with reference to the question of these -1231a people who were being used for these experiments, if they had been ordered or not?
A. Himmler, during our drive from Munich to Dachau Concentration Camp, which is a twenty minute distance from Munich, told me certain things which are also included in my statement, according to which in Dachau a number of concentration camp inmates had volunteered for these experiments, namely, after requests or applications they had made and which they had addressed to the Wehrmacht to get a chance to fight at the front, and after this application of theirs had been disapproved, because of their criminal records, namely, manifold records, which according to the law also included the fact that they could not join the Army. The correctness of this statement was revealed after the experiments had taken place. These inmates required about two minutes in order to recover from these experiments. The inmates, after these experiments, were in full consciousness of their health contribution to the scientific research of this very important field for the German Air Force, and they were very confident, and they asked the Reichsfuehrer SS again that in view of his high position and connection to give them the possibility to fight at the front with the chance of probation, which Himmler promised then, and which actually happened later on. As the Wehrmacht had doubts as to how such people who had such criminal records would act, these inmates were sent to the SS division Turlewanger, which was to test their ability, and which consisted originally of poachers. After that they were actually taken to this division and actually the Capo of these ten inmates, whose name was Sobota, and two further inmates in July 1942, upon a decision of the Reichsfuehrer SS, were released from their captivity and sent to the SS division. If these inmates had had been forced previously to subject themselves to these experiments, namely, as experimental subjects, like guinea pigs, for instance, and if they had been mistreated by these experiments or abused, the Reichsfuehrer SS would never have taken this great risk on his shoulders, that these inmates, namely, the danger existed that these men would join the enemy and would then tell the enemy all about their experiences, and their inhumane treatment. 1232
Q. During the conversations you had with the inmates did you ever inquire if they were volunteers or how did you understand that?
A. The inmates themselves told me that. This also is mentioned in my statement. They said that in my and Himmler's presence.
Q. Witness, do you know that similar experiments had been carried out by young Luftwaffe doctors?
A. Yes, Himmler told me that during our ride, or trip, from Munich to Dachau. This also is mentioned in my written statement.
Q. Did you know Dr. Rascher who was conducting these experiments? Did you know him personally or only by his name?
A. Dr. Rascher, to the best of my knowledge, I met personally for the first time on this occasion. However, I believe to be able to remember his name and the things in connection with his wife Mimmy, nee Thiel; namely, the connection between her and the Reichsfuehrer SS. I believe I remember these things.
Q. Witness, do you remember in connection with the transfer of this Rascher that you had correspondence to that effect with Milch?
A. Yes, indeed I remember that.
Q. Concerning the carrying out of experiments by the SS, did you ever have any connection with Mr. Milch to that effect? For instance, did you see to it that he agreed as to these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Milch concerning these experiments?
A. May I add to the previous question that in official position as Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS I signed a few things only, namely, one letter once to the Oberstabsarzt Hippke, and later on, I believe in November 1942, an application for a transfer of the Stabsarzt of the Reserve of the Luftwaffe Dr. Rascher to the Waffen SS. These were two of dozens of cases where similar signatures on documents which I had to sign for the Reichsfuehrer-SS were dispatched.
Q. Now, I would like to know if you spoke personally concerning these experiments with Mr. Milch?
A. As I mentioned before, I only saw the Field Marshal very seldom and only occasionally; to the best of my knowledge and recollection I saw the Field Marshal in the latter part of the Summer of 1942. I can't remember the exact date if my diaries are not put at my disposal and I can't be 100% sure about that statement. I believe it was toward the end of August or early September in the Fuehrer's headquarters I spoke to him a very short time. I accompanied him in the meeting, in time running a distance of sixty to eighty minutes to the Fuehrer's bunker. There, after we had discussed our official questions, I inquired about how he was and if everything between the Luftwaffe and the SS was all right. During that occasion we also spoke about these experiments very shortly, if at all, and we spoke of the invaluable help which the SS was giving us by providing these voluntary inmates, which was helping us with our medical material which could be used at the front. However, this was not a long conversation because the Field Marshal alone immediately was called to the Fuehrer's office.
Q. During that occasion did they discuss the fact that the concentration camp inmates were ordered to be forced to these experiments?
A. In the Chancellery we explicitly mentioned that they were volunteering for these experiments and in my written statement I also mentioned that neither Field Marshal Milch nor I were in any way under the impression that they were not volunteering.
Q. Witness, I would like to submit to you now a letter which you wrote on the 27th of November 1942 to Mr. Milch, at the same time with a draft of a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. Take a look at those two letters.
DR. BERGOLD: This is a letter, Your Honors. This is Exhibit No. 120 and Exhibit No. 119. The latter one has Document No. 262 and the first, namely, Exhibit No. 120, has No. 268. Both of them are in Document Book 5B of the prosecution.
A. Excuse me, but I do not know these document numbers. They have different numbers on them.
Q. Witness, do you remember your letter of the 27th of November?
MR. DENNEY: Of the Document Book 5B - 179 of Book 5B.
DR. BERGOLD: It's on page 179, Your Honors.
THE WITNESS: According to my book this is --
DR. BERGOLD: That's all right. It's in the German document book. It doesn't matter.
THE WITNESS: The other one is 269.
A. Yes, I remember these letters, or this letter of the 8th of November. I already saw this letter in London - a photostatic copy of it, that is.
Q. Do you remember your own letter, witness?
A. As this is not a photostatic copy of the letter dated 21 November which I have here, I cannot tell for sure. However, I do believe to remember this letter. A photostatic copy would help me to make a definite statement.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I'm not quite clear on what he is talking about because it's --
DR. BERGOLD: This is the letter of the 27th of November, written by the witness to the defendant Milch.
1235-A
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to be dated November 21, not 27.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. 21st, not 27th. Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, the witness mentioned November 8th just a moment ago.
THE WITNESS: Well, yes, according to this statement here which I received from this gentleman. This is Document No. 16-117 which says, in the copy "8th of November", and according to my recollection, in London, of that photostatic copy which I show, is not clear, so that I thought it was the 3rd of November. However, it is beyond any doubt that in its contents, in the name of the Reichsfuehrer, namely, to transfer Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe into the Waffen SS.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. You're reading Himmler's letter, aren't you?
A. This is the first letter that was shown to me on the first of November, namely, the draft, which is the draft of a letter which Himmler, according to my recollection, did not sign himself but which was the basic for a letter of the 21st or 23rd of November, which bears the secret diary number of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, namely, 1426-42, which apparently was written by the assistant in the personal staff of the Fuehrer, at the time SS Oberfuehrer Dr. Rudolf Brandt, and that letter was drafted by that man and was then submitted to me with a number of other letters, or rather files, which had to be signed, or rather was sent to me in the Fuehrer headquarters. As the headquarters at that time was 45 kilometers from there, in Grostgarten in East Prussia. That I did not dictate this letter myself can be seen from the fact that it does not bear my initials, as is my usual habit. Secondly, that Feldkommandestelle is mentioned here as place of origin - in other words, the division where the Reichsfuehrer was, which was not the place of my office and furthermore, on page 3 of the photo copy --
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. The witness needn't argue your whole case, Dr. Bergold. Is the point that he's making that he did not dictate this letter?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I wanted to know if he remember all these letters and he says, "It is not my own personal letter."
That's his argument here.
THE PRESIDENT: It was brought to him for signature by somebody else?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, that is correct. Dr. Brandt submitted it to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Now stop him and go ahead. That point is established. Let's have something else.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, Your Honors.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. You think that the letter which we just mentioned was set up according the draft of Himmler?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time when you signed the letter, did you look through it - or what were you told by the expert? That was Dr. Brandt?
MR. DENNEY: This is all very confusing. He has two letters and Dr. Bergold keeps talking about "the letter". I'd appreciate it if he'd refer to the documents by their number because there is no way of telling what he's talking about.
DR. BERGOLD: I'm speaking of document no. - just a moment, please - I'm speaking of the Document 269.
MR. DENNEY: 269.
DR. BERGOLD: The letter of the witness to Milch. I asked him if he takes it that this letter was written on the basis of Himmler's letter's draft namely, this is the letter 1617 PS. He answered my question in the affirmative.
THE PRESIDENT: Please guide us to the page number in the English document book of the other letter - the one you just mentioned.
