A. It's practically impossible to remember with certainty after four and a half years if I read the entire letter or if I just glanced through it and this occurs mostly when I have to sign so many documents. Dr. Brandt had added on a small piece of paper: "Please sign concerning the transfer of Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS." As to the previous letter here, it's quite possible that the whole matter was known to me and that, therefore, I just glanced through it and signed it.
Q. Witness, in your own statement you mentioned the fact that Milch had certain relationship with Himmler. Was that often and regular period of times or did that occur rather seldom?
A. As I mentioned, my written statement -- was
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute; we didn't get the purport of the question at all.
A. I asked the witness that during his oral report which namely -- I mean the written report which I submitted to the Court, he mentioned that Milch met Himmler once in a while and that he had a certain relationship to him and I asked him now if that happened often or if seldom or at regular intervals.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this what you mean----?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Did Himmler meet Him frequently?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, your Honor.
A. No, in contrast with the peace-time he met him very seldom and irregularly which fact I also mentioned in my written report.
Q. Witness, you saw Hitler very often. Can you tell now if Milch belonged to the inner circle Hitler?
A. I do know the so called inner circle of the Fuehrer very well and I have to make three statements here and say that the Field Marshal Milch in spite of his high rank did not belong to this inner circle of the Fuehrer as we people always stayed with the Fuehrer during the well known tea-time or in the evening sometimes for instance, up to three or three thirty or four o'clock. He did not belong 1238A to these people.
He was a high ranking officer, however, he did not belong to the inner circle of the Fuehrer.
Q. In other words, he was not one of Hitler's confidents?
A. He wasn't in close confidence with Hitler. Of course, his official position gave him a certain privilege. However, it was a limited one, and not without privileges.
Q. Was Milch often in connection with the other SS Fuehrers? Can you judge that?
A. Yes, I can judge that. Field Marshal Milch endeavored to be in connection with the other SS Chiefs, namely, the leading and high-ranking people of the SS. He endeavored to be in good contact with these people, and all discrepancies which they could have between the Luftwaffe and the SS, they discussed them in a comradely manner, openly and to solve them in a positive way. Often a frequent or a close contact by the Field Marshal and high-ranking SS officers is not known to me.
Q. Witness, I have a last question to you. Don't mind if I ask you such a question. When I read your statement I was of the opinion that you suffered a mental damage or a psychological damage and that, therefore, your statement is not quite correct. Did you ever suffer from such an ailment?
A. In order to answer this question of yours to the full truth I would have to be able to go back somewhat and I would appreciate it if you could possibly tell me -- within the framework of your possibility to tell precisely and not be so nice about it and vague about it. According to the experiences I have had during these 21st months, I have become rather hard and, therefore, it is better if you could tell me exactly who stated something about it or who allegedly made the statement because I love the truth and furthermore, because of my five children or for their sake I would not like to have such an accusation on my shoulders which is not justified and which not explicitly explained by me.
Therefore, I have an interest to clarify this matter or to use a negative manner.
Q. Witness, it was stated that you became mentally sick and that, therefore, you had been sent to an insane asylum. At least that is the way I understood it.
1239A
A. I have the following to say to this; from the 21 August 1945, on until my birthday, the 13 May 1946 -In other words, for almost nine months I have been detained in the prison -- the Nurnberg Jail -- in solitary confinement, namely, in a cell that is situated in the north part of the building where not one sun-ray reached me. For a period of 15 months I did not get any mail from my wife, from my second wife and my children from the second marriage and therefore, I was worried and I was uncertain as to their present position -- the whole thing was all the more vague to me. I could not understand it and in my official position, both in peace-time and in war-time, was Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler as well as Liaison Officer for the Waffen SS Headquarters and especially the rank of a Commander-in-Chief of the whole rear area in Italy and the German Military Government. I never committed any offenses which had anything to do with war crimes, which cannot be proved as war crimes or could even be mentioned as war crimes and that I of the Chancellory had faith in the fact that I deserved a lot, first of all, from my own German Fatherland, secondly, for the Italian population which was under my supervision, so as to say, for Switzerland and for the Anglo-American or Allied Troops, namely, the capitulation of Caserta which I actually carried out, took place 29 April 1945 in Caserta which was signed there and according to statements of Field Marshal Alexander the Commander-in-Chief of the entire Mediterranean Theater of Operations, the entire European war was shortened by at least two months. The capitulation of Casserta had actually caused the entire German capitulation. It isn't quite correct that my capitulation took place one week before the entire German capitulation.
It appears to be that the fact that the Alps' Fortifications which I vacated voluntarily which I had joined in an eight months operation with Gauleiter Schaufer, Reiner and the military officers in upper Italy and which I had fortified in 1945 with the latest models with military excavations, then I could have held my position for a long period of time and giving up this fort also reduced the resistance in the northern redoubt of Holstein and Denmark in order that this seemed necessary.
1240A
Q. Would you get a little closer to the main question?
A. I went through such horrible things here in this prison, this jail, namely, mental things and I can say inhuman acts - thefts. As an inmate I never received an answer from Col. Andrus, the Commander of the jail, upon my complaints so that at the time the people which I had conversations with in Switzerland in March and April 1945, in other words, before the end of the war, the end of the war, that is, and that I failed there and that I wanted to carry out pacts as everyone who has been in jail nine months, namely, solitary confinement and it is a constant psychosis. I could not describe that.
I never was insane, however. I must stress that I, because according to statements which came to my knowledge neither the Fuehrer nor the ReichsFuehrer SS were still alive and could represent the SS, declare myself guilty as well as innocent and that I volunteered to sit as main defendant for my deceased former chief Himmler next to Kaltenbrunner in the dock. I think one cannot show more sacrifice for a good cause in which one has believed for 14 years, and for which one has staked everything. Even the most precious thing one's manly honor. Instead of being called a witness for the SS which would have been my right in the main trial of the IMT, I was declared insane, and was practically deprived of my statement in the IMT trial.
If anybody at all had the authority to call me as a witness for crimes which I do not want to minimize and which I am not minimizing today, and for the innocence of the SS before the public I feel entitled to so; from the middle of May'33 I was the right hand man, first, the adjutant and then the chief adjutant, and later on chief of the Office of Personal Staff of Himmler, and finally the first General of the Luftwaffe SS which had been taken from the Waffen---into the German Wehrmacht.
I believe if I would have been given the opportunity which I asked for, since also later from the hospital, as well as from the prison camp at Neu Ulm for Generals I wrote to the defense counsel for the SS Dr. Babel to call me as a witness and to state the most important full truth, however I was not called as a witness. I therefore asked to be given the opportunity now, here before the world public, to correct what has led to a judicial blunder with respect to the SS organization and will have most serious political consequences for the future.
Q. Witness, this is not the place to make such statements. Would you answer me. You were sent to the insane asylum, what happened then?
A. There analogous to the treatment which I have just mentioned, I was put in an insane ward, not with one or two cases, or alone as this should have been done in view of my state of exhaustion; they put me together with sixteen fully insane people, in the same ward with paralytics and tuberculosis patients, and these 1242a who had brain injuries, they screamed by day and night at me.
This pleased them as the rank of general had been dragged down to the dirt for two years, they thought they could have fun with me. I do not wish to answer all the things that occurred there, but that is the truth, and I care, and I want to prove this in order to explain.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when were you released from the institution?
THE WITNESS: From the institute, from the first insane asylum, which was called the St. Getren in Bamberg, I was transferred after one week to a psychiatric warden of the reserve field hospital in Furth, in the senior school. There I was kept partly with the sane, partly together with other insane till 10 July 1946. I stated all of this in order to prove what can happen even at this Tribunal, which is an example of faultless human right, and I do not dread consequence that generally a whole nation, or, a tribunal should be held responsible.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. When were you released as sane?
A. I was then released as fit for release on 10 June 1942 and sent to New Ulm. And was then on the 27 of June.
THE PRESIDENT: Was that 1942?
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. 1942?
A. On 27 June 1946, after an officer of the CIC on 23 June had spoken to me, and wanted to check on my sanity, by letting me answer ten questions in writing. In spite of this proof that I was absolutely sane, I was called in for observation of my mental abilities on 27 June 1946 to the reserve hospital Augsburg. There on 15 July 1946 a representative of Dr. Pelkmann, defense counsel, as far as I can remember, and attorney Aschenauer, accompanied by the American CIC Captain Hague, who at the end of the year was active in the main camp PW-8 in Garmisch, visited me, and asked me all sorts of questions in connection with political matters, and questions in connection with the trial. However, it seemed queer he did not admit me as a witness for the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. Go ahead.
DR. BERGOLD: That is sufficient. I have no further questions to put to the witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to cross examine the witness, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Yes. Could we adjourn now?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHALL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.
(Whereupon recess was taken at 1330 hours, same date).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal re-convened at 1350 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number II is again in session.
KARL WOLFF - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, were you a member of the NSDAP?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you become a member?
A. I joined the Party in October 1931, both the NSDAP and the SS.
Q. And you also remained a member of the Party and of the SS?
A. Yes, up until the end of the war.
Q. And over the years your relationship with Himmler became a very close one, did it not?
A. From 1933 up until the outbreak of war, it was very intimate, daily contacts. From the beginning of the war onwards, from 1 September 1939 until 18 February 1943, we were separated because I was in the Fuehrer's headquarters. I saw Himmler there once a week and talked to him over the telephone or personally.
Q. You did not go to his speech to the generals of the Waffen-SS which was made in Poszen in October of 1943?
A. No, sir. I was then in Italy, fighting and did not take part in the meeting as I can prove.
Q. Did you ever see a copy of that speech?
A. To the best of my knowledge and remembrance, no.
Q. Did any of your brother SS officers ever report to you what Himmler said about you at that speech?
A. No.
Q. You were the Supreme SS officer in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Starting in 1943, when?
A. Yes, from 9 September 1943.
Q. Until what date?
A. Up until I was taken prisoner on 13 May 1945.
Q. And as such you had complete power over all SS and police units in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know a man named Harster?
A. No. Do you mean the SS Obergruppenfuehrer and Lieutenant General of the Security Police Officer Wilhelm Harster?
Q. Did you know him?
A. Yes, of course. After all he was my subordinate officer and commanding officer of the Security Police in Italy.
Q. Did you know a man named Kappler, who was under him?
A. Yes, of course. He was formerly police attache with the German Embassy in Rome, and after the so-called Bodoglio surrender, he was handed over to me as he knew Rome best of all, and there he became the commander of the Security Police in Rome and was, as such, under me.
Q. The Italian capitulation, the so-called Bodoglio capitulation, occurred in, roughly, August of 1943?
A. As far as I remember, the secret surrender, which was kept a secret from the German Axis partner, was 1 September, and the application of the surrender was announced on 8 September.
Q. And after that Kappler came up to Rome, where he was chief of Police under you?
A. He was chief of the Security Police in Rome, and, as such, was subordinate directly and immediately to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Harster, the commander of the Security Police in Italy, who in turn was my subordinate.
Q. You were the top SS man in Italy?
A. Yes, that is correct.
A. You told the Court that you had been a good SS man and that you were proud of everything that the SS had done; that they were a fine organization.
A. I am sorry, I did not hear the beginning of the sentence, only the end.
Q. You told the Court that you were a good SS man and that you were proud of everything that the SS had done during the war.
A. Yes, what the SS did under my orders and under my responsibility.
Q. And you were responsible for whatever they did down in Italy during the period September '43 to April '45?
A. Of course I admit that I am responsible in that sense and to the same extent as Field Marshal Alexander is responsible for the Italian theater of war and should be made responsible for every single mistake, every single offense committed by people, by Allied troops under his command.
Q. That is what they made you a general of the Waffen-SS for, wasn't it, to be responsible?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. You remember an incident that took place at the Ardeatime Caves on 24 March 1944?
A. Yes, I do.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I made every effort to make it quite clear now what purpose Mr. Denney has with these questions. I stated before that within the framework of cross examination the usual thing is to put questions which really belong to the original interrogation. Incidents in Italy have, in my opinion, nothing to do with the present trial -- nothing at all. The credibility of a witness can be tested in another manner. In particular it needn't be tested by discussing incidents which have nothing to do with the material under review. I therefore protest against this manner of cross examining and I leave it to the wisdom of the Court to find out about that.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, this man has told the Court what a fine organization this is that he represented. Dr. Bergold let him continue at length on direct examination, a long tale as to how he was the best man to speak for the SS and wasn't allowed to do it, and he may have left the impression with the Court that this SS to which he belonged was, in fact, some sort of an aid society.
He has told where he was, and I submit that I am allowed to interrogate him as to how it happened in some of the places where he had the command.
Dr. BERGOLD: May it please the Court -
THE PRESIDENT: I am about to rule. Of course your philosophy, Mr. Denney, is that two wrongs make a right, because without your objection the witness wandered off into immaterial fields on direct examination, he ought to have the same latitude on cross examination. Logically, this position is not defensible. On the other hand we are - well, call it arbitrarily, if you wish, going to give the witness, and give you, some latitude, within limitations, in inquiring as to this defendant's background, having in mind that we are not here trying the SS.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you know how many people were killed in the Ardeatime Caves?
A. Yes, about 335, and if I may say something about this -
THE PRESIDENT: No, don't. Just answer the questions.
THE WITNESS: Yes, 335, roughly.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Some of them were Jews?
A. As I remember it, I heard about this only after the end of the war, as far as I remember, and to the best of my conscience.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I still can't see what that has to do with my trial. Did I misunderstand the Court's ruling?
THE PRESIDENT: The Court's ruling was that this line of questioning would be permitted within very definite limitations and not permitted to go too far. One of the reasons for the ruling is that you yourself permitted the witness to wander into strange fields, and as we say in America, "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."
THE WITNESS: Personally I have no objections, for my conscience is completely clean in this particular matter.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You never heard anything about this affair until after the war was over?
A. Yes; yes.
Q. And you didn't go to Rome on the 25th of March, 1944?
A. I flew to Rome, and I said -- perhaps I may point out what I said in London -
Q. Tell me what you remember. I don't want you to read to me.
A. I only want to give the number to avoid misunderstandings. This is record 1338B of 7 September 1946. Everything is contained in there, but I shall be glad to tell it from my memory. The reprisal measures taken in the case Ardeatime near Rome were taken only -
Q. Wait. The only question that is now pending is whether he went to Rome on a certain date. Answer that question. Did you go to Rome on the 25th of March, 1944?
A. As far as I know, as far as I can remember, probably even on 24 March. Probably on 24 March, possibly on 25 March. In the evening I arrived from Verona by air to Viterbo on the day, on the eve of the official funeral of the 32 or 33 victims of this foul attack made by people on a police troop which had the order to look after law and order in this open city of Rome and to protect the Vatican.
Q. So you got there on the 24th or the 25th?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And did you cause any investigation to be made of this incident? You can answer that very simply. Did you cause any investigation to be made of this incident?
A. No, because I was not competent at that time, for the unit which had carried out the reprisal measure, or which had been the victim of the attempt was exclusively under the command of the commandant of the General of the Luftwaffe, Meltzer, who already has been sentenced to death, as well as the C-in-C of the 14th Army, also sentenced to death, Col. General von Mackensen. If I had anything to do with it, I would have been called into that trial myself.
Q. You didn't do anything about it; the answer is no, is that right?
A. No. As I said, I was not competent.
Q. Now turning to these letters that you had to do with, some of which you addressed -- were addressed to you and some of which were signed by you to Dr. Rascher -- Dr. Bergold, I wonder if you could give him Document No. NO-308 Will you get it from Dr. Bergold, please?
The letter of 16 April 1942 to Hippke. It is Page 9 in Document Book 5-A.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, I will not prolong the episode which you just testified to, but I would like to put one question only. As commanding general of the SS troops in Italy, when you arrived in Viterbo and learned of this incident, could you have ordered an investigation even though the area directly involved was under the jurisdiction of General von Mackensen?
THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't have been in a position to do so. No. And may I add that when I arrived in Viterbo the sentence had been carried out. I was faced with facts when I arrived.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You say the reprisals had already been committed?
THE WITNESS: Everything had happened before I even arrived at Viterbo. May I ask about this letter, about this document which has been given to me? May I also see a photostatic copy, because on this copy I cannot see the important evidence, my initials, also notes which are very important for me.
MR. DENNEY: We don't seem to have a photostatic copy here, on the English copy there is a note up in the upper right hand corner which says:
DR. BERGOLD: There should be a copy with the Secretary General.
A It is very important for me that I see the photostatic copy because I need it; from there I can see the really important data. It was shown to me once before in London; it should be available.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we send for it?
A I would be very grateful.
MR. DENNY: If it is not too much trouble, I would appreciate having it.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Secretary General get that document, please.
MR. DENNEY: NO. 318.
BY MR. DENNEY: (Continuing)
Q Perhaps you can turn the letter which you have admitted signing to Milch, dated 21 November 1942, or 27 November 1942, as the case may be, in which--Page 179 of Document Book. 5 A, Your Honors.
A Yes.
Q At the beginning of the second paragraph you state-- the research is concerned with the reaction of the human organism at great heights and with the symptoms brought on by cooling the human body by immersion in cold water for a long period; and similar problems particularly necessary for the Luftwaffe can be carried out especially efficiently in our organization because the Reich Fuehrer SS has accepted the responsibility for supplying death deserving social persons and criminals in the concentrations camps for these experiments. What do you regard as social criminals who could probably be made the subject of one of these experiments?
A Did you ask me with regard to death deserving criminals and a social character?
Q Yes.
A I should say first, I am not a general police, certainly not of the Security police, neither am I in the civil service in the ministry of justice; I am 1251 a only an active soldier.
In my lay-man opinion I can only say that I can only see a criminal as one with so many offenses to his record, who has committed crimes deserving death.
Q. Then, if they survived these experiments you would put them into the Wehrmacht; if they would survive the experiments, did you?
A. It is his business if he volunteers for these things, in the interest of the fatherland, his own motives. Everybody obeys his own instinct; either you risk your life, or as a slacker, you remove yourself from your patriotic duty. That is the same in all countries and in this case in Germany. These death deserving and asocial persons had the decency to put their lost life at the disposal of the Fatherland, and thereby win the honor to fight cleanly and freely at the front.
Q. Now, when was Rascher transferred to the Waffen SS; do you recall?
A. As far as I recall, not when I was in office, for I said this morning that on 18 February 1943; I fell ill suddenly, fell ill so suddenly that I could not travel and had to undergo a serious operation and I believe to recall that after that time the transfer, I believe that up to that time the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS had not happened yet. That becomes clear from my statement in the record also.
Q. Going back to this paragraph we have just read, you used the term "asocial persons and criminals" and it seems to me that the definition you have given us is one of criminals. What is the difference between them?
A. Well, as I said before, I am not a member of the security police nor am I a legal expert. I cannot speak about the legal aspects here. I could imagine here that a criminal -- I'd much rather not give the definition here which would he inadequate because I am not an export.
Q. Is an asocial person referred to as a Jew or a foreigner; could it mean a Jew or a foreigner?
A. I believe that in every country, in every race, there are good and bad elements, and,therefore, the question of the prosecutor does concern probably all nations and all races.
BY THE PRESIDENT: