Q Witness, what do you know about these experiments, high altitude experiments or freezing experiments? What did you learn about these experiments, witness?
A This also is mentioned precisely in the statement which I made and signed the 21st November, 1946. One day, as far as I can remember, I shall make a certain limitation, to the effect I cannot remember the exact date, without taking a look at my soldiers' diary, it was at the end of February, 1942, I believe immediately after the Party Foundation Day in Munich, in 1943, the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler asked me to take him to what they called the low pressure or high altitude experiments, which were being carried out in Dachau and to accompany him to those experiments.
Q Just one second witness. I would like to point out that the date was 1942 and not 1943.
A 1942 -- 2
Q Thank you.
A Do you wish me to mention everything that is in that statement?
Q No, that is not necessary. Continue.
A I accompanied Himmler to these experiments which were carried out on approximately ten inmates; these experiments were carried out in the so-called low pressure chamber, and I witnessed them myself. Respectively, I could observe the experiments through that peeping hole which was placed in those experimental low pressure chambers. As I mentioned in my written statement, these experiments were but by no means difficult indeed. They lasted just a few minutes depending upon the altitude from which point this artificial jump was supposed to be executed, namely, a lower altitude, namely from three thousand meters on, and this extended to about six thousand, nine thousand, eleven thousand, twelve thousand, and as far as I am sure, I can remember thirteen thousand meters was the highest altitude reached. In other words, the whole experiments took one, two or at the utmost three minutes. After about five years now, that happened five years ago, and, therefore, it is very difficult to remember the exact length of time of the experiment, but I am sure this statement is sufficient.
Q Witness, what were told with reference to the question of these -1231a people who were being used for these experiments, if they had been ordered or not?
A. Himmler, during our drive from Munich to Dachau Concentration Camp, which is a twenty minute distance from Munich, told me certain things which are also included in my statement, according to which in Dachau a number of concentration camp inmates had volunteered for these experiments, namely, after requests or applications they had made and which they had addressed to the Wehrmacht to get a chance to fight at the front, and after this application of theirs had been disapproved, because of their criminal records, namely, manifold records, which according to the law also included the fact that they could not join the Army. The correctness of this statement was revealed after the experiments had taken place. These inmates required about two minutes in order to recover from these experiments. The inmates, after these experiments, were in full consciousness of their health contribution to the scientific research of this very important field for the German Air Force, and they were very confident, and they asked the Reichsfuehrer SS again that in view of his high position and connection to give them the possibility to fight at the front with the chance of probation, which Himmler promised then, and which actually happened later on. As the Wehrmacht had doubts as to how such people who had such criminal records would act, these inmates were sent to the SS division Turlewanger, which was to test their ability, and which consisted originally of poachers. After that they were actually taken to this division and actually the Capo of these ten inmates, whose name was Sobota, and two further inmates in July 1942, upon a decision of the Reichsfuehrer SS, were released from their captivity and sent to the SS division. If these inmates had had been forced previously to subject themselves to these experiments, namely, as experimental subjects, like guinea pigs, for instance, and if they had been mistreated by these experiments or abused, the Reichsfuehrer SS would never have taken this great risk on his shoulders, that these inmates, namely, the danger existed that these men would join the enemy and would then tell the enemy all about their experiences, and their inhumane treatment. 1232
Q. During the conversations you had with the inmates did you ever inquire if they were volunteers or how did you understand that?
A. The inmates themselves told me that. This also is mentioned in my statement. They said that in my and Himmler's presence.
Q. Witness, do you know that similar experiments had been carried out by young Luftwaffe doctors?
A. Yes, Himmler told me that during our ride, or trip, from Munich to Dachau. This also is mentioned in my written statement.
Q. Did you know Dr. Rascher who was conducting these experiments? Did you know him personally or only by his name?
A. Dr. Rascher, to the best of my knowledge, I met personally for the first time on this occasion. However, I believe to be able to remember his name and the things in connection with his wife Mimmy, nee Thiel; namely, the connection between her and the Reichsfuehrer SS. I believe I remember these things.
Q. Witness, do you remember in connection with the transfer of this Rascher that you had correspondence to that effect with Milch?
A. Yes, indeed I remember that.
Q. Concerning the carrying out of experiments by the SS, did you ever have any connection with Mr. Milch to that effect? For instance, did you see to it that he agreed as to these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Milch concerning these experiments?
A. May I add to the previous question that in official position as Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS I signed a few things only, namely, one letter once to the Oberstabsarzt Hippke, and later on, I believe in November 1942, an application for a transfer of the Stabsarzt of the Reserve of the Luftwaffe Dr. Rascher to the Waffen SS. These were two of dozens of cases where similar signatures on documents which I had to sign for the Reichsfuehrer-SS were dispatched.
Q. Now, I would like to know if you spoke personally concerning these experiments with Mr. Milch?
A. As I mentioned before, I only saw the Field Marshal very seldom and only occasionally; to the best of my knowledge and recollection I saw the Field Marshal in the latter part of the Summer of 1942. I can't remember the exact date if my diaries are not put at my disposal and I can't be 100% sure about that statement. I believe it was toward the end of August or early September in the Fuehrer's headquarters I spoke to him a very short time. I accompanied him in the meeting, in time running a distance of sixty to eighty minutes to the Fuehrer's bunker. There, after we had discussed our official questions, I inquired about how he was and if everything between the Luftwaffe and the SS was all right. During that occasion we also spoke about these experiments very shortly, if at all, and we spoke of the invaluable help which the SS was giving us by providing these voluntary inmates, which was helping us with our medical material which could be used at the front. However, this was not a long conversation because the Field Marshal alone immediately was called to the Fuehrer's office.
Q. During that occasion did they discuss the fact that the concentration camp inmates were ordered to be forced to these experiments?
A. In the Chancellery we explicitly mentioned that they were volunteering for these experiments and in my written statement I also mentioned that neither Field Marshal Milch nor I were in any way under the impression that they were not volunteering.
Q. Witness, I would like to submit to you now a letter which you wrote on the 27th of November 1942 to Mr. Milch, at the same time with a draft of a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. Take a look at those two letters.
DR. BERGOLD: This is a letter, Your Honors. This is Exhibit No. 120 and Exhibit No. 119. The latter one has Document No. 262 and the first, namely, Exhibit No. 120, has No. 268. Both of them are in Document Book 5B of the prosecution.
A. Excuse me, but I do not know these document numbers. They have different numbers on them.
Q. Witness, do you remember your letter of the 27th of November?
MR. DENNEY: Of the Document Book 5B - 179 of Book 5B.
DR. BERGOLD: It's on page 179, Your Honors.
THE WITNESS: According to my book this is --
DR. BERGOLD: That's all right. It's in the German document book. It doesn't matter.
THE WITNESS: The other one is 269.
A. Yes, I remember these letters, or this letter of the 8th of November. I already saw this letter in London - a photostatic copy of it, that is.
Q. Do you remember your own letter, witness?
A. As this is not a photostatic copy of the letter dated 21 November which I have here, I cannot tell for sure. However, I do believe to remember this letter. A photostatic copy would help me to make a definite statement.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I'm not quite clear on what he is talking about because it's --
DR. BERGOLD: This is the letter of the 27th of November, written by the witness to the defendant Milch.
1235-A
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to be dated November 21, not 27.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. 21st, not 27th. Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, the witness mentioned November 8th just a moment ago.
THE WITNESS: Well, yes, according to this statement here which I received from this gentleman. This is Document No. 16-117 which says, in the copy "8th of November", and according to my recollection, in London, of that photostatic copy which I show, is not clear, so that I thought it was the 3rd of November. However, it is beyond any doubt that in its contents, in the name of the Reichsfuehrer, namely, to transfer Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe into the Waffen SS.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. You're reading Himmler's letter, aren't you?
A. This is the first letter that was shown to me on the first of November, namely, the draft, which is the draft of a letter which Himmler, according to my recollection, did not sign himself but which was the basic for a letter of the 21st or 23rd of November, which bears the secret diary number of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, namely, 1426-42, which apparently was written by the assistant in the personal staff of the Fuehrer, at the time SS Oberfuehrer Dr. Rudolf Brandt, and that letter was drafted by that man and was then submitted to me with a number of other letters, or rather files, which had to be signed, or rather was sent to me in the Fuehrer headquarters. As the headquarters at that time was 45 kilometers from there, in Grostgarten in East Prussia. That I did not dictate this letter myself can be seen from the fact that it does not bear my initials, as is my usual habit. Secondly, that Feldkommandestelle is mentioned here as place of origin - in other words, the division where the Reichsfuehrer was, which was not the place of my office and furthermore, on page 3 of the photo copy --
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. The witness needn't argue your whole case, Dr. Bergold. Is the point that he's making that he did not dictate this letter?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I wanted to know if he remember all these letters and he says, "It is not my own personal letter."
That's his argument here.
THE PRESIDENT: It was brought to him for signature by somebody else?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, that is correct. Dr. Brandt submitted it to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Now stop him and go ahead. That point is established. Let's have something else.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, Your Honors.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. You think that the letter which we just mentioned was set up according the draft of Himmler?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time when you signed the letter, did you look through it - or what were you told by the expert? That was Dr. Brandt?
MR. DENNEY: This is all very confusing. He has two letters and Dr. Bergold keeps talking about "the letter". I'd appreciate it if he'd refer to the documents by their number because there is no way of telling what he's talking about.
DR. BERGOLD: I'm speaking of document no. - just a moment, please - I'm speaking of the Document 269.
MR. DENNEY: 269.
DR. BERGOLD: The letter of the witness to Milch. I asked him if he takes it that this letter was written on the basis of Himmler's letter's draft namely, this is the letter 1617 PS. He answered my question in the affirmative.
THE PRESIDENT: Please guide us to the page number in the English document book of the other letter - the one you just mentioned.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. I shall come back to your own letter, namely Document No. 269. Please tell me if you read this letter when you signed it or if you just gave an oral report from this Brandt who worked it out.
1237A
A. It's practically impossible to remember with certainty after four and a half years if I read the entire letter or if I just glanced through it and this occurs mostly when I have to sign so many documents. Dr. Brandt had added on a small piece of paper: "Please sign concerning the transfer of Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS." As to the previous letter here, it's quite possible that the whole matter was known to me and that, therefore, I just glanced through it and signed it.
Q. Witness, in your own statement you mentioned the fact that Milch had certain relationship with Himmler. Was that often and regular period of times or did that occur rather seldom?
A. As I mentioned, my written statement -- was
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute; we didn't get the purport of the question at all.
A. I asked the witness that during his oral report which namely -- I mean the written report which I submitted to the Court, he mentioned that Milch met Himmler once in a while and that he had a certain relationship to him and I asked him now if that happened often or if seldom or at regular intervals.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this what you mean----?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Did Himmler meet Him frequently?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, your Honor.
A. No, in contrast with the peace-time he met him very seldom and irregularly which fact I also mentioned in my written report.
Q. Witness, you saw Hitler very often. Can you tell now if Milch belonged to the inner circle Hitler?
A. I do know the so called inner circle of the Fuehrer very well and I have to make three statements here and say that the Field Marshal Milch in spite of his high rank did not belong to this inner circle of the Fuehrer as we people always stayed with the Fuehrer during the well known tea-time or in the evening sometimes for instance, up to three or three thirty or four o'clock. He did not belong 1238A to these people.
He was a high ranking officer, however, he did not belong to the inner circle of the Fuehrer.
Q. In other words, he was not one of Hitler's confidents?
A. He wasn't in close confidence with Hitler. Of course, his official position gave him a certain privilege. However, it was a limited one, and not without privileges.
Q. Was Milch often in connection with the other SS Fuehrers? Can you judge that?
A. Yes, I can judge that. Field Marshal Milch endeavored to be in connection with the other SS Chiefs, namely, the leading and high-ranking people of the SS. He endeavored to be in good contact with these people, and all discrepancies which they could have between the Luftwaffe and the SS, they discussed them in a comradely manner, openly and to solve them in a positive way. Often a frequent or a close contact by the Field Marshal and high-ranking SS officers is not known to me.
Q. Witness, I have a last question to you. Don't mind if I ask you such a question. When I read your statement I was of the opinion that you suffered a mental damage or a psychological damage and that, therefore, your statement is not quite correct. Did you ever suffer from such an ailment?
A. In order to answer this question of yours to the full truth I would have to be able to go back somewhat and I would appreciate it if you could possibly tell me -- within the framework of your possibility to tell precisely and not be so nice about it and vague about it. According to the experiences I have had during these 21st months, I have become rather hard and, therefore, it is better if you could tell me exactly who stated something about it or who allegedly made the statement because I love the truth and furthermore, because of my five children or for their sake I would not like to have such an accusation on my shoulders which is not justified and which not explicitly explained by me.
Therefore, I have an interest to clarify this matter or to use a negative manner.
Q. Witness, it was stated that you became mentally sick and that, therefore, you had been sent to an insane asylum. At least that is the way I understood it.
1239A
A. I have the following to say to this; from the 21 August 1945, on until my birthday, the 13 May 1946 -In other words, for almost nine months I have been detained in the prison -- the Nurnberg Jail -- in solitary confinement, namely, in a cell that is situated in the north part of the building where not one sun-ray reached me. For a period of 15 months I did not get any mail from my wife, from my second wife and my children from the second marriage and therefore, I was worried and I was uncertain as to their present position -- the whole thing was all the more vague to me. I could not understand it and in my official position, both in peace-time and in war-time, was Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler as well as Liaison Officer for the Waffen SS Headquarters and especially the rank of a Commander-in-Chief of the whole rear area in Italy and the German Military Government. I never committed any offenses which had anything to do with war crimes, which cannot be proved as war crimes or could even be mentioned as war crimes and that I of the Chancellory had faith in the fact that I deserved a lot, first of all, from my own German Fatherland, secondly, for the Italian population which was under my supervision, so as to say, for Switzerland and for the Anglo-American or Allied Troops, namely, the capitulation of Caserta which I actually carried out, took place 29 April 1945 in Caserta which was signed there and according to statements of Field Marshal Alexander the Commander-in-Chief of the entire Mediterranean Theater of Operations, the entire European war was shortened by at least two months. The capitulation of Casserta had actually caused the entire German capitulation. It isn't quite correct that my capitulation took place one week before the entire German capitulation.
It appears to be that the fact that the Alps' Fortifications which I vacated voluntarily which I had joined in an eight months operation with Gauleiter Schaufer, Reiner and the military officers in upper Italy and which I had fortified in 1945 with the latest models with military excavations, then I could have held my position for a long period of time and giving up this fort also reduced the resistance in the northern redoubt of Holstein and Denmark in order that this seemed necessary.
1240A
Q. Would you get a little closer to the main question?
A. I went through such horrible things here in this prison, this jail, namely, mental things and I can say inhuman acts - thefts. As an inmate I never received an answer from Col. Andrus, the Commander of the jail, upon my complaints so that at the time the people which I had conversations with in Switzerland in March and April 1945, in other words, before the end of the war, the end of the war, that is, and that I failed there and that I wanted to carry out pacts as everyone who has been in jail nine months, namely, solitary confinement and it is a constant psychosis. I could not describe that.
I never was insane, however. I must stress that I, because according to statements which came to my knowledge neither the Fuehrer nor the ReichsFuehrer SS were still alive and could represent the SS, declare myself guilty as well as innocent and that I volunteered to sit as main defendant for my deceased former chief Himmler next to Kaltenbrunner in the dock. I think one cannot show more sacrifice for a good cause in which one has believed for 14 years, and for which one has staked everything. Even the most precious thing one's manly honor. Instead of being called a witness for the SS which would have been my right in the main trial of the IMT, I was declared insane, and was practically deprived of my statement in the IMT trial.
If anybody at all had the authority to call me as a witness for crimes which I do not want to minimize and which I am not minimizing today, and for the innocence of the SS before the public I feel entitled to so; from the middle of May'33 I was the right hand man, first, the adjutant and then the chief adjutant, and later on chief of the Office of Personal Staff of Himmler, and finally the first General of the Luftwaffe SS which had been taken from the Waffen---into the German Wehrmacht.
I believe if I would have been given the opportunity which I asked for, since also later from the hospital, as well as from the prison camp at Neu Ulm for Generals I wrote to the defense counsel for the SS Dr. Babel to call me as a witness and to state the most important full truth, however I was not called as a witness. I therefore asked to be given the opportunity now, here before the world public, to correct what has led to a judicial blunder with respect to the SS organization and will have most serious political consequences for the future.
Q. Witness, this is not the place to make such statements. Would you answer me. You were sent to the insane asylum, what happened then?
A. There analogous to the treatment which I have just mentioned, I was put in an insane ward, not with one or two cases, or alone as this should have been done in view of my state of exhaustion; they put me together with sixteen fully insane people, in the same ward with paralytics and tuberculosis patients, and these 1242a who had brain injuries, they screamed by day and night at me.
This pleased them as the rank of general had been dragged down to the dirt for two years, they thought they could have fun with me. I do not wish to answer all the things that occurred there, but that is the truth, and I care, and I want to prove this in order to explain.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when were you released from the institution?
THE WITNESS: From the institute, from the first insane asylum, which was called the St. Getren in Bamberg, I was transferred after one week to a psychiatric warden of the reserve field hospital in Furth, in the senior school. There I was kept partly with the sane, partly together with other insane till 10 July 1946. I stated all of this in order to prove what can happen even at this Tribunal, which is an example of faultless human right, and I do not dread consequence that generally a whole nation, or, a tribunal should be held responsible.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. When were you released as sane?
A. I was then released as fit for release on 10 June 1942 and sent to New Ulm. And was then on the 27 of June.
THE PRESIDENT: Was that 1942?
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. 1942?
A. On 27 June 1946, after an officer of the CIC on 23 June had spoken to me, and wanted to check on my sanity, by letting me answer ten questions in writing. In spite of this proof that I was absolutely sane, I was called in for observation of my mental abilities on 27 June 1946 to the reserve hospital Augsburg. There on 15 July 1946 a representative of Dr. Pelkmann, defense counsel, as far as I can remember, and attorney Aschenauer, accompanied by the American CIC Captain Hague, who at the end of the year was active in the main camp PW-8 in Garmisch, visited me, and asked me all sorts of questions in connection with political matters, and questions in connection with the trial. However, it seemed queer he did not admit me as a witness for the SS.