DR. BERGOLD: Excuse me. The witness cannot answer the question from the way you put it, Your Honor. From the way you say that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: We are not getting anything through the system. I am not getting any response.
1324 (a)
DR. BERGOLD: That one translation that came through in German was that the witness can not understand the question.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I an reading from the -
DR. BERGOLD: He said that it was difficult to fight in the East while there could be a conflict with the West. What it said here I shall read it from the German: If such based on a conflict with the West, that the possession of extensive territory in the East was advantageous upon record harvests we shall rely on in time of war instead of peace. I believe I helped Your Honor with this.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, do you recall that item being discussed?
THE WITNESS: Well, I must say to my regret, I have to say that I do not remember one sentence, or one certain idea out of a conference which occurred eight years ago. I am afraid I can not state with certainty that I do. However, it is most probable that such an expression as mentioned here in this Schmundt record is in connection with the ideas which I remember at that time with this, and it is possible that such a sentence was used.
Q. Then the next item, Population. "The population of non-German will perform no military service and will be available as a source of labor. Do you recall this discussion?
DR. BERGOLD: May I read it in German?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: If you will, please.
DR. BERGOLD: The population of non-German areas have to be put at the disposal of that country for work later."
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Do you recall that item being discussed?
A. No, I don't. I can not remember this question either, and I don't see the logical connection of this either, the logical connection with the chain of ideas that were debated at that time. This sentence is not as probable to me as the one that was mentioned before.
Q. Well, if he would discuss such a subject as harvests, do you think it is so unlikely that he would discuss a subject such as labor?
A. Yes, it is possible. It is likely, but I can not swear to it.
Q. You would not exclude the possibility that he did discuss labor in this sense?
A. No. I would not. It is possible; that is quite right.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is all.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. I have one further question, witness. Before you mentioned the fact that Hitler wanted to prevent a two-front war, by all means, and now there is a passus here which I will read to you: "Japan is one of the important questions. Even if at first, for various reasons, her collaboration with us appears to be somewhat cool and restricted, it is nevertheless in Japan's own interest to take the initiative in attacking Russia in good time."
Was such a chain of ideas mentioned there, or is not this in contradiction with the idea of the prevention of a two-front war?
A. Well, as far as this statement is concerned, as it was read I can not remember it. I do not recall it, and I don't think that it falls within the logical connection, as, according to my opinion, Hitler made it a basis for his speech at that time 1326 (a) I can not recall, and I do not believe it either.
Q. I asked you if Japan was discussed at all.
A. No, according to my recollection, in May 1939, Japan was not mentioned at all. Japan began to play a certain part in Germany toward the end of 1940. I know that early in 1941, on the basis of operational discussions, a Japanese commission came here to study the German situation -- early in 1941.
Q. Witness, I shall come back to the question of the extended basis of an attack against England. Did Hitler at the time discuss the point or mention the fact that Holland or the Low Lands and Belgium were to be attacked, or to force them to enter the war against England and to put its country or citizens at their disposal?
A. This is also a question which I would like to answer Yes or No, but right now 1 can't do either because after eight years I can not be expected to remember.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Do you remember Hitler saying at the meeting in May, "There will be war. Our tasks is to isolate Poland. The success of the isolation will be decisive"?
A. That he used this sentence I do not recall. As of today I would like to give a precise answer, I am sure that such a sentence certainly was not used.
Q. Well, of course, we do not expect you to remember exactly what was said at the meeting eight years ago, but you do remember that there was talk about the possibility of invading Poland?
A. Yes. I just wanted to mention that this precision concerning an attack on Poland, in my opinion, was not discussed.
Q. Do you mean to say that Hitler did not mention Poland?
A. He did mention it; Hitler did mention Poland, of course.
Q. Did ho mention possible war with Poland?
A. Yes, He did, yes.
Q. Did he mention possible invasion of Poland?
A. In this connection, according to my opinion, no.
1327 (a)
Q. You talked about war with Poland, but not about invading Poland?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. How else was was with Poland to come about except by Germany invading her?
A. I just tried to answer this, which was one of the questions of the Prosecutor; namely, that Hitler was of the opinion that the attitude of Poland with respect to our border population was so aggressive that the case could occur that the honor of the German Reich would necessitate an attach against Poland. That, of course, would have led to a provoked aggressive war.
Q. In other words, he anticipated incidents on the border?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Well, he was right about that, was he not?
A. In our opinion at the time, I am sure he was not wrong.
Q. There was an incident on the border?
A. Not only the Gleiwitz incident, but also various incidents from Poland against Germany -- people who were attacked and sent from their territories. That, at the time at least, was mentioned. Today I am in no position whatsoever to determine what is true and what is exaggerated.
Q. Is it your opinion that Hitler ordered the invasion of Poland because of border incidents?
A. Today I am no longer of that opinion.
Q. You know better now?
A. Yes, today I do.
Q. Was it your opinion in September 1939 that Poland was being invaded because of border incidents?
A. Absolutely. In 1939 we were in good faith; so was the whole German people. We actually believed in those things
Q. You believed that border incidents had occurred which justified the invasion of Poland?
A. Another question, which is more of a political nature though. I could imagine now that the border incidents which were the reason for a war could, of course, have been taken care of on the basis of arbitration.
1328 (a) However, it is possible that Hitler at the time liked these incidents and that they were welcome to him, so to speak.
Q. I think there is a good deal to what you say. He liked them so well that he created at least one himself?
A. Yes, yes, indeed.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess so that we may see Judge Beals at this time about the witness Brandt.
Lest you misunderstand, the Court is not recessing until 1:30 now. I may be able to get Mr. Brandt immediately.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I have understood.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for approximately fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 1 is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring in Rudolf Brandt to the witness stand.
RUDOLF BRANDT took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I ask permission first to instruct the witness that he has the right as the defendant in Case 1 to refuse to answer questions that could incriminate him.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will advise the witness to that effect. That is that he may refuse to answer any questions if such answers would tend to incriminate or degrade him.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, please speak slowly and I ask further that you interpolate a short pause after my questions before you answer so that the interpreters can interpret my question to its conclusion. Witness, please state to the Court your first and last names.
A. Rudolf Emil Herman Brandt.
Q. When were you born, witness?
A. 2 June 1909.
Q. What was your last position and rank in the German Reich?
A. I was personal expert of the previous Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler.
Q. Witness, do you recall having signed an affidavit on the 30th of August 1946?
A. Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, this is the sworn affidavit of the witness, Document No. 191, Exhibit No. 124. The last document in Prosecution Document Book 5-B.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor please, the second to the last document. It's page 193, another affidavit by the same affiant which is Document No. 242. I assume Dr. Bergold is talking about Document No. NO-191.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Witness, you there stated in the spring of 1941, 1942, rather, Milch empowered SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf, in a letter to carry out the freezing experiments on human beings. Do you know for certain that in this authorization the words "freezing experiments" occur?
A. I cannot recall.
Q. I now submit this letter to you. It's Document No. 345-PS, Exhibit No. 87, Milch's letter to Wolf on 20 May 1942. Please look at this document. It's in Document Book 5-A.
MR. DENNEY: Page 19, Document Book 5-A, Your Honor. Milch's letter to Wolf of 20 May. What exhibit number?
DR. BERGOLD: 87.
Q. Have you read it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this letter which you are now looking at the letter that you referred to in your affidavit?
A. May I first ask what this letter really was that mentioned freezing experiments?
Q. Yes. I am asking you whether this is the letter in question. You said in the spring of 1942 Milch approved from the Luftwaffe in a letter to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf the carrying out of these freezing experiments on human beings. Now, I asked you previously whether the words "freezing experiments" really were mentioned in the letter and you said you couldn't remember. Now, I show you a letter of 20 May 1943, a letter from Milch to Wolf, and my question is is the letter that you have before you the letter that you referred to in your affidavit?
MR. DENNEY: I don't know the affidavit he is talking about.
I can't find it.
DR. BERGOLD: Number three.
MR. DENNEY: Just a thought, your Honor. He is referring to 242 and 1331 a not to 191.
Just so the record will be clear, the exhibit about which Dr. Bergold has been talking is Document No. NO-242 and he is talking about the third paragraph on the first page of that document.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he has been talking about two documents. First an affidavit, second a letter.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir, but the affidavit of which he is speaking is the second affidavit of the witness Brandt, which is Document No. NO-242.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is that to be found?
MR. DENNEY: That is the last exhibit in Document Book 5-B. It follows the first affidavit to which, reference is made. Page 196 of Document Book 5-B, Your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, my question now is, is this letter that I have submitted to you the letter to which you referred in your affidavit?
A. I consider it possible, but I cannot say for sure. The explanation was submitted to me in its formulation, and the words "freezing experiments" most certainly occurred in it, and it was in this form that it was signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, in what paragraph of the affidavit is the reference to the letter?
DR. BERGOLD: Paragraph 3, Your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Do you mean thus to say that you didn't give any consideration to what you were signing when you signed this affidavit and simply signed it because it was submitted to you?
A. I cannot now recall the process by which I signed this affidavit.
Q. When you signed this affidavit was Milch's letter to Wolff, to which you refer hero, shown to you at that moment?
A. It could be, but I can't say for sure now.
Q. Witness, I came to point 9 in that affidavit. You speak of the fact that Himmler received a report on these freezing experiments. It reads: "Himmler acknowledged receipt of this report, a copy of the letter was sent to Karl Wolff. He stated that a copy of the report had been sent to Field Marshal Milch of the Luftwaffe and went on to state that he expected reports regarding the use of animal heat in reviving the frozen subject." Do you know for certain that such a letter existed, and can you tell us the contents of such a letter?
A. That I cannot.
Q. Do you know of such a copy of Himmler's letter to Wolff?
Was that submitted to you?
A. In the interrogation, you mean? Yes.
Q. Yes.
1333 a
A. I cannot give a precise answer to that, either, because that was quite a way in the past and I can no longer recall.
Q. I come now to your first affidavit, Document NO-191, the next to the last document in the Document Book of the Prosecution.
MR. DENNEY: Page 193 of 5-B.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. I now cite point 12 in this affidavit. You state here: "Field Marshal E. Milch and Prof. Hippke, inspector of the medical service of the Luftwaffe, were fully informed about the low pressure experiments." How do you know that these two men were completely or fully informed about the low pressure experiments? Do you know from your own direct knowledge, or is that simply a deduction?
A. It is not my own direct knowledge, but a deduction which I drew on the basis of the letter that was assuredly shown to me, or from what the interrogator told me.
Q. Did you discuss these experiments with Milch?
A. No, never.
Q. Do you know whether he ever spoke with Himmler on these experiments?
A. That I cannot say.
Q. Witness, is it correct that you have signed a great number of affidavits and that you then later withdrew a large number of these affidavits or limited them?
A. Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, when did you first find out about these experiments?
A. I can't say the date. It can be seen from the exchange of letters that began in the personal staff.
Q. Did you know about them in 1941?
A. I believe that the correspondence took place during that year.
1334 a
Q. Did you know Rascher?
A. I knew him slightly.
Q. How long did you work for Himmler?
A. Since 1934.
Q. In 1934 you saw the correspondence that went in and out of his office, didn't you?
A. Yes, but there was some material there that I did not see.
Q. Do you recall writing to Rascher sometime in May, 1941, just after Himmler went up to Oslo, telling Rascher that prisoners will be gladly made available for the high flight researches?
A. Is that a letter in the Document Book?
Q. It doesn't make any difference whether it is a letter in the Document Book or not. I am just asking you whether or not you recall writing to Dr. Rascher in May 1941 telling him that prisoners would he made available for those experiments.
A. Yes, I do remember that letter, on the basis of the fact that it is in the Document Book.
Q. You don't remember anything about it? You don't even remember writing the letter?
A. I do recall that it was shown to me during an interrogation.
Q. But today -
A. But it was only after the interrogator showed it to me that I recalled it. Previous to that I had forgotten that I had written it.
Q. Well, you say you didn't know Rascher very well. You just knew him slightly?
A. Yes, just superficially.
Q. You congratulated him on the birth of a son in that letter, didn't you?
A. Yes, that I remember.
Q. Well now, you speak of prisoners in this letter. What kind of prisoners did you mean?
1335 a
A. I assume I meant inmates of concentration camps.
Q. Concentration Camp inmates. How did people get into concentration camp in Germany?
A. That I do not know. No. I did not know that any better than anyone else who had nothing to do with it officially.
Q. And you were Himmler's adjutant from 1934? Is that right?
A. Not adjutant, but I was responsible for questions involving the general SS.
Q. You know they had some concentration camps in 1941, did you not?
A. That camps existed you mean? Yes. That I know.
Q. How many of them did you know about in 1941?
A. I find it difficult to say that now for sure, but I knew perhaps of five or six or seven camps.
Q. What camps were those?
A. I recall Dachau, Oranienburg -- whether Buchenwald existed at that time, I do not know. Whether I knew of Natzweiler in 1941, I also cannot say. Ravensbrueck and Neuengamme that is all.
Q. Did you know that they were exterminating people in concentration camps in 1941?
A. No.
Q. Did you know the Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A. I found that out sometime, but I cannot say at what time it was.
Q. You knew that there was some sort of activity going on in Germany against Jewish people, did you not?
A. I do not understand the question entirely.
Q. (Interpreter repeated the question.)
A. Yes, That I knew.
Q. When did you first find that out?