MR. DENNEY: Your Honor please, the second to the last document. It's page 193, another affidavit by the same affiant which is Document No. 242. I assume Dr. Bergold is talking about Document No. NO-191.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Witness, you there stated in the spring of 1941, 1942, rather, Milch empowered SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf, in a letter to carry out the freezing experiments on human beings. Do you know for certain that in this authorization the words "freezing experiments" occur?
A. I cannot recall.
Q. I now submit this letter to you. It's Document No. 345-PS, Exhibit No. 87, Milch's letter to Wolf on 20 May 1942. Please look at this document. It's in Document Book 5-A.
MR. DENNEY: Page 19, Document Book 5-A, Your Honor. Milch's letter to Wolf of 20 May. What exhibit number?
DR. BERGOLD: 87.
Q. Have you read it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this letter which you are now looking at the letter that you referred to in your affidavit?
A. May I first ask what this letter really was that mentioned freezing experiments?
Q. Yes. I am asking you whether this is the letter in question. You said in the spring of 1942 Milch approved from the Luftwaffe in a letter to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf the carrying out of these freezing experiments on human beings. Now, I asked you previously whether the words "freezing experiments" really were mentioned in the letter and you said you couldn't remember. Now, I show you a letter of 20 May 1943, a letter from Milch to Wolf, and my question is is the letter that you have before you the letter that you referred to in your affidavit?
MR. DENNEY: I don't know the affidavit he is talking about.
I can't find it.
DR. BERGOLD: Number three.
MR. DENNEY: Just a thought, your Honor. He is referring to 242 and 1331 a not to 191.
Just so the record will be clear, the exhibit about which Dr. Bergold has been talking is Document No. NO-242 and he is talking about the third paragraph on the first page of that document.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he has been talking about two documents. First an affidavit, second a letter.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir, but the affidavit of which he is speaking is the second affidavit of the witness Brandt, which is Document No. NO-242.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is that to be found?
MR. DENNEY: That is the last exhibit in Document Book 5-B. It follows the first affidavit to which, reference is made. Page 196 of Document Book 5-B, Your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, my question now is, is this letter that I have submitted to you the letter to which you referred in your affidavit?
A. I consider it possible, but I cannot say for sure. The explanation was submitted to me in its formulation, and the words "freezing experiments" most certainly occurred in it, and it was in this form that it was signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, in what paragraph of the affidavit is the reference to the letter?
DR. BERGOLD: Paragraph 3, Your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Do you mean thus to say that you didn't give any consideration to what you were signing when you signed this affidavit and simply signed it because it was submitted to you?
A. I cannot now recall the process by which I signed this affidavit.
Q. When you signed this affidavit was Milch's letter to Wolff, to which you refer hero, shown to you at that moment?
A. It could be, but I can't say for sure now.
Q. Witness, I came to point 9 in that affidavit. You speak of the fact that Himmler received a report on these freezing experiments. It reads: "Himmler acknowledged receipt of this report, a copy of the letter was sent to Karl Wolff. He stated that a copy of the report had been sent to Field Marshal Milch of the Luftwaffe and went on to state that he expected reports regarding the use of animal heat in reviving the frozen subject." Do you know for certain that such a letter existed, and can you tell us the contents of such a letter?
A. That I cannot.
Q. Do you know of such a copy of Himmler's letter to Wolff?
Was that submitted to you?
A. In the interrogation, you mean? Yes.
Q. Yes.
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A. I cannot give a precise answer to that, either, because that was quite a way in the past and I can no longer recall.
Q. I come now to your first affidavit, Document NO-191, the next to the last document in the Document Book of the Prosecution.
MR. DENNEY: Page 193 of 5-B.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. I now cite point 12 in this affidavit. You state here: "Field Marshal E. Milch and Prof. Hippke, inspector of the medical service of the Luftwaffe, were fully informed about the low pressure experiments." How do you know that these two men were completely or fully informed about the low pressure experiments? Do you know from your own direct knowledge, or is that simply a deduction?
A. It is not my own direct knowledge, but a deduction which I drew on the basis of the letter that was assuredly shown to me, or from what the interrogator told me.
Q. Did you discuss these experiments with Milch?
A. No, never.
Q. Do you know whether he ever spoke with Himmler on these experiments?
A. That I cannot say.
Q. Witness, is it correct that you have signed a great number of affidavits and that you then later withdrew a large number of these affidavits or limited them?
A. Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, when did you first find out about these experiments?
A. I can't say the date. It can be seen from the exchange of letters that began in the personal staff.
Q. Did you know about them in 1941?
A. I believe that the correspondence took place during that year.
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Q. Did you know Rascher?
A. I knew him slightly.
Q. How long did you work for Himmler?
A. Since 1934.
Q. In 1934 you saw the correspondence that went in and out of his office, didn't you?
A. Yes, but there was some material there that I did not see.
Q. Do you recall writing to Rascher sometime in May, 1941, just after Himmler went up to Oslo, telling Rascher that prisoners will be gladly made available for the high flight researches?
A. Is that a letter in the Document Book?
Q. It doesn't make any difference whether it is a letter in the Document Book or not. I am just asking you whether or not you recall writing to Dr. Rascher in May 1941 telling him that prisoners would he made available for those experiments.
A. Yes, I do remember that letter, on the basis of the fact that it is in the Document Book.
Q. You don't remember anything about it? You don't even remember writing the letter?
A. I do recall that it was shown to me during an interrogation.
Q. But today -
A. But it was only after the interrogator showed it to me that I recalled it. Previous to that I had forgotten that I had written it.
Q. Well, you say you didn't know Rascher very well. You just knew him slightly?
A. Yes, just superficially.
Q. You congratulated him on the birth of a son in that letter, didn't you?
A. Yes, that I remember.
Q. Well now, you speak of prisoners in this letter. What kind of prisoners did you mean?
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A. I assume I meant inmates of concentration camps.
Q. Concentration Camp inmates. How did people get into concentration camp in Germany?
A. That I do not know. No. I did not know that any better than anyone else who had nothing to do with it officially.
Q. And you were Himmler's adjutant from 1934? Is that right?
A. Not adjutant, but I was responsible for questions involving the general SS.
Q. You know they had some concentration camps in 1941, did you not?
A. That camps existed you mean? Yes. That I know.
Q. How many of them did you know about in 1941?
A. I find it difficult to say that now for sure, but I knew perhaps of five or six or seven camps.
Q. What camps were those?
A. I recall Dachau, Oranienburg -- whether Buchenwald existed at that time, I do not know. Whether I knew of Natzweiler in 1941, I also cannot say. Ravensbrueck and Neuengamme that is all.
Q. Did you know that they were exterminating people in concentration camps in 1941?
A. No.
Q. Did you know the Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A. I found that out sometime, but I cannot say at what time it was.
Q. You knew that there was some sort of activity going on in Germany against Jewish people, did you not?
A. I do not understand the question entirely.
Q. (Interpreter repeated the question.)
A. Yes, That I knew.
Q. When did you first find that out?
A. I cannot state a date, but for all practical purposes, that activity had been going on since January of 1933. That is when the Party took an attitude against the Jews. It was from that time on.
Q. You did not know any of them were going to concentration camps?
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A. I never found out about it officially. I really cannot answer that question.
Q. Well, you say you never found out about if officially. Did you ever learn unofficially that Jews were going to concentration camps?
A. I must have found out about it in one way or another. I must have heard of it somehow.
Q. Well, you were a reasonably important figure in the SS. You were a Sturmbannfuehrer, were you not?
A. The rank meant nothing in this case. No deductions can be drawn from whatever rank I had.
Q. You were allowed to sign letters by order, were you be not?
A. Yes. That was my job.
Q. And you signed the letter that you wrote to Rascher, by order, Rudolf Brandt, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. So far as you knew, who were these prisoners who were going to be experimented upon?
A. At that time I did not know and only found out about it here in the course of my own trial.
Q. You must have known something about it in May of 1941 because you wrote to Rascher in reply to Rascher's letter to Himmler of 15 May 1941, and in your letter you said, "I can inform you that prisoners will of course be gladly made available for the high altitude research. I have informed the chief of the Security Police of this agreement of the Reichsfuehrer SS and requested that a competent official be instructed to get in touch with you." The "you" is Rascher. What kind of prisoners did you think were going to be used in these experiments?
A. I cannot answer that question because the text of this letter is to he traced hack to an order on the part of Himmler which I simply transmitted in this form to Rascher without concerning myself with the details of the matter.
Q. Well, you passed on Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler's order to the chief of the Security Police. Who was it at that time in May 1941?
A. I believe it was Heidrich.
Q. Did you know Heidrich?
A. I knew him only when he reported to Himmler and then I saw him at Himmler's.
Q. Well, you passed on the order to Heidrich?
A. I do not know whether I passed it on to Heidrich. I sent it to the Chief of the Security Police, to the police adjutant in this case, Himmler's adjutant. Probably a copy of my letter was given to this adjutant. I believe that is the way it must have been. That was the usual procedure in such cases.
Q. In any event you said to Rascher, "I can inform you that prisoners will of course be available", did you not?
A. That is a formulation that I was instructed to use by Himmler.
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Q You also said that you had informed the Chief of the Security Police?
A Yes, but not personally. The Security Police had an adjutant with Himmler through whom all these matters passed. Consequently, this formulation is not to be understood as you apparently understand it.
Q Do you know in the letter of Himmler of 15 May, written by Rascher, they talked about people dying in these experiments. This was before the experiments were ever conducted?
A May I ask that the question be repeated?
Q You knew that Rascher in his letter to Himmler of 15 May 1941 stated the experiments are made at permanent Luftwaffe testing stations for altitude research, Munich, the experiments from which the subjects can of course die, and that these experiments would take place with my cooperation. These experiments were essential for high altitude flights and cannot be carried out as has been tried with monkeys who offer entirely different test conditions. I had a very confidential talk with a representative of the Air Force Surgeon who makes these experiments, who is also of the opinion that the question could only be solved by experiments on human persons. Feeble-minded could also be used as test material. You knew that Rascher was writing to Himmler about experimenting on people and that people might die as a result of the experiments?
A I cannot say today whether at that time I knew that so precisely.
Q He asked Himmler to make available two or three professional criminals for the experiments.
Q He asked you to make available, that is, he asked Himmler to make available two or three professional criminals for the experiment? (Hesitation on the part of witness to answer) Are you going to answer the question, witness?
A Whether I knew that, I can not say now.
Q All right. Returning then to your letter to Rascher, the last paragraph of the letter you say therein: "I shall refer as soon as possible to the second part of your letter." What was the second part of the letter, Were you and he talking about feeble-minded people?
A I can not say now what that was, because I just don't remember details from that time.
Q Then, so far as you are concerned the only people that you knew on whom was experimented were criminals from the concentration camps and Germans who had been condemned to death, is that right?
A What the regulations were I did not know. I merely passed on Himmler's instructions.
Q Did not you read this correspondence. You were writing letters in it.
A Nevertheless, I did not know.
Q You did not know anything about it?
A No. After this great length of time I can no longer say what I knew then. It was only after an interrogation that finally recalled it to my memory, and then in a broad outline, I did not know details.
Q Did not you know that people had died of these experiments?
A I can not say whether I knew that or not. It also happened that I did not read the letters or reports themselves, because these were matters that had nothing to do with my sphere of work.
Q What was your sphere of work. You seemed to have written a lot of letters to various people connected with this enterprise, what was your sphere of work in the SS?
A I was in charge of the receipts and complaints from the population and from the ranks of the SS.
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Q Complaints about what?
AAbout the unjust treatment on the part of SS members, or other offices.
Q Do you remember writing to Rascher in April of 1942, saying that "Himmler had seen Rascher's letter of April 16th, and that he, Himmler, had shown the same interest in this report as in the one you sent recently, and he would like to make up for him an over-all report of the experiments carried out to date he would like to present personally to the General Fieldmarshall Milch. Kind regards to your wife and yourself. Heil Hitler. Yours, Rudolf Brandt, SS Obersturmfuehrer." You had been promoted by that time, hadn't you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember writing that letter?
A Only because it was shown to me again. If it had not been shown to me here I should not have remembered it.
Q If you had not seen the correspondence which is here involved, you would not even had remembered Dr. Rascher, would you?
A Yes, I certainly would have remembered Rascher.
Q Did you ever find out if any people other than German concentration camp inmates were being used in these experiments?
A It could be seen from the correspondence that also Russians were used.
Q You still not a letter about that, didn't you, from Rascher?
A From Rascher, and an inquiry directed to Himmler regarding a pardon.
Q Do you recall writing an answer about that telegram to Himmler as to whether or not Poles and Russians who had survived the experiments were to be pardoned?
A Himmler had decided that they should not be pardoned.
Q And didn't you answer the inquiry from Rascher about it. It was answered by you?
A On Himmler's orders.
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DR. BERGOLD: Excuse me, what was date of this telegram?
MR. DENNEY: I do not have the date here now. This afternoon I shall have it. I was just making inquiry as to this witness' recollection as who these people were. The witness admitted that the inquiry was made, and by Himmler in reference to the question whether or not Poles and Jews who survived the experiments were to he pardoned, and the witness has said that he made an answer to that inquiry in the name of Himmler to the effect that they were not. I do not have that document here but I shall have it this afternoon.
DR. BERGOLD: The date is of importance because we do not know to what experiments this telegram refers, the SS carried out a great number of experiments.
THE COURT: The date will be furnished this afternoon.
MR. DENNEY: I believe it was October 1942. I am not certain, and I don't want to say it for the record at this time.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. When did you first learn that there were deaths involved in these experiments, if you did learn?
A. I cannot say the date.
Q. Well, you must have some idea as to when it was?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Do you recall getting a letter from Nini Rascher? Do you know who Nini Rascher was?
A. Was Rascher's wife, yes, sir. Nini Rascher was his wife.
Q. Do you recall getting a letter from her addressed to you in April of 1942, dated April 13th, in which she says: "My husband asks you to get him the permission, if possibly, of the Reichsfuehrer to take important colored photos of his new preparations of persons just dissected. As a rule only black and white photography is permitted in the camp; as he wants to evaluate the preparations later on, these photos will he very important in his work.