May I ask you for a short early answer. This letter is forwarded by courier. With their best regards and many thanks, I remain with -- Heil Hitler, yours respectively, Nini Rascher."
1342 a Do you remember getting that letter from her?
A. It was shown to me during my interrogation, and that is why I remember it.
Q. What did you do about it when you heard that people had been dying there?
A. I cannot say that, probably I did nothing.
Q. Did you know a General in the SS named Gluecks?
A. He was in charge of the concentration camps.
Q. All of them?
A. I assume so, but I don't know.
Q. He was at Oranienburg was he not, in 1942, April?
A. I believe that was his office.
Q. You said you did not do anything about this letter. Did not you send a telegram to SS-General Gluecks in which you said the Reichsfuehrer-SS has permitted SS 2nd Lt. Dr. Rascher, who conducts the experiments in Dachau, to make also colored photographs - "In connection with these experiments will you please take steps accordingly." Do you recall sending such a message to General Gluecks of the SS?
A. Actually, I don't remember it, but on Himmler's orders it was issued as only instructions given by Hitler, which, however, I did not decide on.
Q. Yes, but Mrs. Rascher wrote you on 13th of April, saying she wanted you to get permission from Himmler, if possible, and you apparently did get the permission, because you signed the telegram, "Brandt." You did not say "By order of Reichsfuehrer-SS." You just sent it to him, and told him to let him take the pictures of the dead bodies?
A. That does not change the fact that it was Himmler's decision.
Q. Did you make any inquiries about these people who had died, either on Himmler's request, or as a result of your own curiosity?
A. No.
Q. You did not get in touch with Rascher?
A. No.
Q. You did not get in touch with Mrs. Rascher?
1343 a
A. No.
Q. You did not get in touch with anybody at Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Of course, you knew these were criminals they were experimenting on?
A: I assume that I knew that at that time, but I could not state that for certain here under oath, in other words, in general, these matters did not belong to my sphere of work, and for that reason I did not concern myself with them, but singly submitted the question that arose to Himmler and passed on his instructions.
Q. You had been in the picture of these experiments for almost a year by April 1942, so much so, that Mrs. Rascher wrote to you rather than to Himmler, and she told you in the letter - "persons just dissected." You knew that Rascher was conducting these experiments for the Luftwaffe and the SS, didn't you?
A. I only knew that experiments were being carried out. I knew of no details.
Q. Well, whom did you think they were being carried out for? They certainly were not for the Navy, were they?
A. I did not think about that at all.
Q. You just knew that Rascher, and some other people down at Dachau were submitting or carrying out experiments on human beings, and that people were dying, and you did not know any more about it?
A. I know more about it, you say? No.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps this would be a convenient time to adjourn, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal. You are about to recess for lunch, and the question is still open when I shall be able to see the witness Dorsch and Lieutenant-General Engel to speak to before they are produced in court in the afternoon. I have not as yet had the opportunity to speak to them. The question is how can that best be effectuated.
THE PRESIDENT: Obviously it is to be done this afternoon. Dr. Bergold, the question is when can this Tribunal return this "Loaner" to the Tribunal One. He was excused until one-thirty, and I had hoped you would be through with him by that time, but I dare say we can keep him overtime if you have not finished.
MR. DENNEY: I shall try to be as brief as I can, Your Honor. I have a few more documents to put to him, and I will be as expeditious as I possibly can.
THE PRESIDENT: I think perhaps we had better recess within the wrath of Judge Beals, and bring him back here at one-thirty, and then you can examine him deliberately.
MR. DENNEY: I might add -
THE PRESIDENT: How long, Dr. Bergold, will you need to interrogate the witness before you call them?
DR. BERGOLD: I shall take three-quarters of an hour for both.
THE PRESIDENT: For both, together.
DR. BERGOLD: For both.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess at this time until one-thirty, and then conclude with the examination of this witness, then we will give Dr. Bergold sometime in which to interview his witnesses, and resume as soon as we can after that.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing re-convened at 1330 hours)
THE MARSHALL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued RUDOLPH BRANDT -- Resumed
Q. Witness, do you recall in March of 1942 -- on 21 March, to be exact--writing to Sievers in reply to a letter of Sievers of 9 March, concerning Dr. Rascher, in which you said, "Reference is made to the subatmospheric pressure experiments which are being carried out on concentration camp inmates in Dachau camp by the Air Force."? Do you remember writing to Sievers on that subject in March of 1942?
A. I can not recall that. It is possible that I have written. It is quite possible that I wrote, but I can not recall it now.
Q. And just so the record will be clear, the telegram which was sent concerning the Poles and Russians by Rascher was dated 20 October 1942, and it was addressed to you, and the reply which you sent was dated 22 October 1942, and was sent to an SS-Obersturmfuehrer Schnitzler? Did you know an SS-Obersturmfuehrer named Schnitzler -- S-C-H-N-I-T-Z-L-E-R-?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was he stationed?
A. He was the adjutant of Himmler in Munich.
Q. And the telegram to Schnitzler was signed by you; to you remember that?
A. All those documents which are submitted here carry my name because, at Himmler's orders, I passed on his decisions.
Q. And you told Schnitzler that the information should be passed on to Rascher, that the Himmler decree on pardoning of experimental subjects did not apply to Poles and Russians? Do you recall that?
A. As far as it is contained in that teletype letter, yes, but I don't really remember it practically. (Witness examined document.) Yes, that is the letter from Himmler which I passed on.
Q. The telegram which I have just shown you is dated 22 October, and it is signed "Brandt", isn't it?
A. I signed it, yes.
DR. BERGOLD: These documents have not been introduced in the translated form. I believe it would be a good idea if that would be done so that I can take note of the various details.
MR. DENNEY: We'll offer them at the proper time, Your Honor. I am showing the witness a photostatic copy of the German original.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, Mr. Denney says that a copy will be furnished when the instrument is offered in evidence later.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Now, on 27 April 1942 you wrote a letter to Rascher in which you stated "The Reichsfuehrer has seen your letter of 16 April 1942. He has shown the same interest in this report as in the one which you sent recently. He would like you to make up for him an overall report on the experiments carried out to date, which he would like to present personally to General Field Marshal Milch. With kind regards to your wife and yourself, Heil Hitler, Rudolph Brandt, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer." Do you remember sending that letter to Rascher?
A. I don't recall it, but, as it is here now, I must have written it.
Q. You don't know anything about it?
A. No, I don't recall it any more.
Q. Did you ever see Milch in Himmler's office?
A. Yes.
Q. How often?
A. Not very often.
Q. But he knew him, didn't he?
A. I did not understand the question.
Q. Did Milch know Himmler?
A. That seems very possible.
Q. Now, in October of 1942 - on the 7th of October - do you recall a request made by a Camp Commander who was a Sturmbannfuehrer named Weiss, in a telegram to you sent to number 8 Prinz Albrechtstrasse, stating that the Commander of the Concentration Camp Dachau asks to instruct the Brigadefuehrer Bluecks, of whom we have spoken here before, to send from Ravensbrueck to Dachau the four women wanted by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher for his experiments? Do you recall getting such a telegram from Sturmbannfuehrer Weiss?
A. I recall that because that telegram -- I was shown the telegram in my interrogation, otherwise I would not have recalled it at all.
Q. Do you know what they were going to use these women for?
A. Yes; it becomes clear from the other document, which I was shown in my own trial, that they were used for rewarming purposes on the experimental subjects which were used for the chilling experiments, but that I only learned from the documents here.
Q. Do you know a man named Meine, who was an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer?
A. He was not an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer; he was my collaborator, and an Obersturmfuehrer.
Q. Obersturmfuehrer. Well, was his name Meine?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he work for you?
A. He was my collaborator.
Q. And did he send the telegram to Gluecks, at your request, in answer to or pursuant to the request from Weiss?
A. That becomes clear from the files; yes.
Q. In which it stated: "SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt asks you to give instructions for the four women ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS to be put at the disposal of Dr. Rascher, to be sent from Ravensbrueck to Dachau"?
A. Yes; after having seen this document here. Yes.
Q. Did Himmler send all of his correspondence out through you?
2b Feb. 47-A - 14-2 - LJG - Kupperstein (DA)
A. Part of it. Letters were also sent after immediate conferences with people, of which I had no knowledge at all.
Q. Now, do you remember writing to Rascher on September 6, 1942, stating that Field Marshal Milch has answered in the meantime the letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS of 25 August 1942; "He writes that he intends to summon you and Dr. Romberg for a report in the near future"?
A. I have no memory of this, as in all these cases. The actual facts were recalled to me here.
Q. Who was the man who handled the negotiations between Himmler and Milch, in this regard? Was it not General der Waffen SS Karl Wolf?
A. Whether he had talked, I could not say. As far as the records show, he wrote to Milch once or twice. I don't know whether he saw him personally -- I do not know.
Q. And you still tell the Court that you don't know for whom these experiments were being carried out?
A. For the Luftwaffe. After all, Dr. Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe.
Q. While the SS was making available these concentration camp inmates for experimental purposes?
A. I would think so.
Q. Well, don't you know?
A. I have not the knowledge of the details which you may think I have.
Q. Well, everybody seemed to write to you -- Sievers, the head of the Ahnenerbe, Dr. Rascher, Mrs. Rascher. When people wanted the right to photograph bodies that had been dissected, bodies that had obviously been killed in these experiments, when people wanted to get women - live women - for the purpose of using their bodies to rewarm people who had been submerged in the freezing tank, everyone wrote to you.
A. All these cases have really been attracted to Himmler. It might have been just as easily attracted to another man.
Q. You replied to many of these inquiries, did you not?
A. Yes; of course they were replied to.
Q. Did Dr. Hippke ever come over to Himmler's office to see him?
A. I do not know.
Q. Well, did you ever see him there?
A. I don't think I've ever seen him, except here in Nurnberg.
Q. You never saw him around the offices where Himmler was?
A. I do not recall having seen him.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, Your Honor. Oh, excuse me!
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Were you a member of the Party?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join?
A. In 1932.
Q. When were you captured?
A. May, 1945.
Q. Where?
A. In Bremervoehrde.
Q. By the British?
A. Yes; by the British.
Q. Were you taken with Himmler when he was?
A. No; one day before Himmler was captured.
Q. Was he captured up there too?
A. He was captured south of Bremervoehrde.
MR. DENNEY: No more questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, when you were asked before, what the relations were between Himmler and Milch, you stated that you might have misunderstood the first question, in this matter. Do you definitely knew that Milch was in Himmler's office? Did you see him yourself?
A. I misunderstood that question completely. I did not hear the name Milch. But what I heard was - or I believed I heard - : "Did you know the Munich office of Himmler's" which of course is something entirely different.
Therefore my reply is not valid now, which I gave
Q. But now I ask you did you personally see Milch in Himmler's offices?
A. Yes, I believe in his field headquarters.
Q. Several times or only once?
A. I believe only once.
Q. And about what time was that?
A. I could not say that now. It was in East Prussia. I could not say that with certainty.
Q. You said before that Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe. Why in your letters to the ether agencies did you refer to him as the SS Obersturmfuehrer? The translation came before as SS Lieutenant. Why did you call him SS?
A. The idea was to take him into the SS.
Q. But was he not a member of the Allgemeine-SS?
A. I believe he was a member of the Allgemeine-SS too, but I do not know when he joined.
Q. Were you acquainted with the volume of the experiments?
A. No.
Q. Therefore, can you say that the experiments were only for the benefit of the Luftwaffe and not also for the benefit of the SS itself?
A. These were made for the benefit of the Luftwaffe. It's an assumption of mine which I base on the fact that the experiments themselves were carried out by members of the Luftwaffe and that for instance the high altitude experiments were of no interest to the SS.
Q. Did you know that Himmler wrote to Rascher and sent him personal instructions with regard to special experiments?
A. That's possible but I could not say it with certainty.
DR. BERGOLD: If I may ask Dr. Denney to give me the telegram for just a minute so that I may ask a counter question?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, you are, of course, entitled to see any of the documents which Dr. Denney used in examining the witness.
Q. I only wanted to see it so I could ask the rebuttal question from these telegrams. May I see the preceding letter also? (letter is secured) Witness, have you any knowledge of a letter sent by the Reichsfuehrer SS 1352 a on 18 April 1942 in which was ordered that prisoners condemned to death and survived these experiments, that these prisoners should be pardoned?
A. I had hardly any recollection of this now but it is quite possible that such a letter had been sent.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions, your Honor.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, you know that Rascher was a Luftwaffe doctor?
A. I knew that as a doctor he belonged to the Luftwaffe.
Q. And you knew they were trying to get him transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS and that you had some correspondence about that?
A. There was a very extensive correspondence there.
Q. And you knew that he didn't ultimately get transferred to the SS until March of 1943?
A. I don't recollect the date. That he was transferred, I do recall.
Q. Well, you know that you wrote to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl on 20 November 1942 stating the Reichsfuehrer SS requests that SS Hauptssturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher be transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS is worked on right now and is to be assisted as much as possible in his experimentation at Dachay?
A. This letter certainly was sent.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, would it be possible that the conference to which you testified before -- the conference between Himmler and Milch, which allegedly took place in Eastern Prussia -- wouldn't it have been possible that conference actually took place in Salzburg?
A. No, I did not say anything about a conversation. All I mentioned was that Milch visited Himmler at Himmler's headquarters. I believe also that was part of an invitation which Himmler had sent out to some people of the Fuehrer's headquarters to come and dine with him. I don't think it was an actual conference when I saw Milch with Himmler. I could not say that with certainty.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will return this witness to Tribunal I.
DR. BERGOLD: Now, I would like to ask the Court to have a brief adjournment so that I could talk to the witnesses Engl and Dorsch. It would also be necessary if Room 157 could be put at my disposal for the witnesses so that the witnesses could be taken there from the prison.
THE PRESIDENT: That can be arranged. Shall we say until three o'clock.
DR. BERGOLD: That would be sufficient if the witnesses could be brought in very quickly but sometimes it takes a quarter of an hour until they arrive, in which case the time would be very short.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Marshal see that the witness is brought as soon as possible to Room 157, Col. Mays? That will be done and the Court will resume its session at three o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until three o'clock.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: I ask permission to call the witness Lieutenant General Engl.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness Engl to the witness stand.
GERHARD ENGL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I ask you to speak slowly. I ask you further to pause after every one of my questions so that the interpreters may have enough time to interpret my question to its conclusion. Witness, please state your first and last name.
A. Gerhard Engl.
Q. When were you born?
A. 13 April 1906.
Q. What was your last rank and position in the German Wehrmacht?
A. My last rank and last position in the German Wehrmacht were Division Commander and Lieutenant General.
Q. Do you recall that on the 23rd of May 1939 you were present at a conference in the new Reich Chancellory in Hitler's office.
A. I recall that in May of 1939 I was present at a Hitler conference at least for some length of time although perhaps not during its whole length.
Q. Witness, what was your position on the 23rd of hay 1939?
A. I was a captain and was an adjutant of the Army, of the Wehrmacht, in Hitler's adjutanture.
Q. Witness, can you recall whether Feldmarshall Goering was present at that time?
1355 a
A. I cannot recall whether Goering was present.
Q. Witness, was this conference at that time of considerable or brief duration?
A. So for as I recall, it was rather long.
Q. Can you tell me roughly how many hours?
A. That is very difficult after such a lapse of time but I believe it lasted two or three hours.
Q. Can you give us your general impression of the purpose and aims of that conference?
A. I know that Hitler spoke at great length, that he said a great deal about armaments and about possible political developments in Europe. I can provide no details since I was not present throughout the whole conference. You must recall that was more than eight years ago.
Q. Did you have the general impression that this speech was the announcement of the coming agression against Europe?
A. No, I cannot say that.
Q. Why not? Do you want to say it was not an announcement of coming aggression or that you had no impression one way or another?
A. I remember too few of the details of the conference itself. Hitler spoke a great deal about war at that time, and it was nothing unusual at that time.
Q. Witness, I should like to refer now to the conclusion of that conference. Can you tell us whether at the end of Hitler's speech he stated the following principle:
"First, no one is to take part who does not have to know. "Secondly, no one should find out more than he must know. "Thirdly, no one should know anything earlier than necessary." Can you recall that these words were said so pregnantly?
A. No, I cannot remember.
Q. Is it true that these words arc the content of the so-called basic Fuehrer order?
A. In the Fuehrer Order Number 1, these words do appear frequently.
Q. Do you know when, for the first time, this principle was phrased so concisely?
A. So far as I remember, after secrecy was absolutely necessary. This was quite a while after the beginning of the war.
Q. Witness, was there discussion at that time of the fact that everything should be kept secret from Japan, or that Japan had its own reason for her reluctance to take steps against Russia.
A. No. I can say nothing on that subject.
Q. Is it correct that Hitler spoke in this speech about the fact that he wanted to avoid a two-front war?
