A. I cannot state a date, but for all practical purposes, that activity had been going on since January of 1933. That is when the Party took an attitude against the Jews. It was from that time on.
Q. You did not know any of them were going to concentration camps?
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A. I never found out about it officially. I really cannot answer that question.
Q. Well, you say you never found out about if officially. Did you ever learn unofficially that Jews were going to concentration camps?
A. I must have found out about it in one way or another. I must have heard of it somehow.
Q. Well, you were a reasonably important figure in the SS. You were a Sturmbannfuehrer, were you not?
A. The rank meant nothing in this case. No deductions can be drawn from whatever rank I had.
Q. You were allowed to sign letters by order, were you be not?
A. Yes. That was my job.
Q. And you signed the letter that you wrote to Rascher, by order, Rudolf Brandt, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. So far as you knew, who were these prisoners who were going to be experimented upon?
A. At that time I did not know and only found out about it here in the course of my own trial.
Q. You must have known something about it in May of 1941 because you wrote to Rascher in reply to Rascher's letter to Himmler of 15 May 1941, and in your letter you said, "I can inform you that prisoners will of course be gladly made available for the high altitude research. I have informed the chief of the Security Police of this agreement of the Reichsfuehrer SS and requested that a competent official be instructed to get in touch with you." The "you" is Rascher. What kind of prisoners did you think were going to be used in these experiments?
A. I cannot answer that question because the text of this letter is to he traced hack to an order on the part of Himmler which I simply transmitted in this form to Rascher without concerning myself with the details of the matter.
Q. Well, you passed on Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler's order to the chief of the Security Police. Who was it at that time in May 1941?
A. I believe it was Heidrich.
Q. Did you know Heidrich?
A. I knew him only when he reported to Himmler and then I saw him at Himmler's.
Q. Well, you passed on the order to Heidrich?
A. I do not know whether I passed it on to Heidrich. I sent it to the Chief of the Security Police, to the police adjutant in this case, Himmler's adjutant. Probably a copy of my letter was given to this adjutant. I believe that is the way it must have been. That was the usual procedure in such cases.
Q. In any event you said to Rascher, "I can inform you that prisoners will of course be available", did you not?
A. That is a formulation that I was instructed to use by Himmler.
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Q You also said that you had informed the Chief of the Security Police?
A Yes, but not personally. The Security Police had an adjutant with Himmler through whom all these matters passed. Consequently, this formulation is not to be understood as you apparently understand it.
Q Do you know in the letter of Himmler of 15 May, written by Rascher, they talked about people dying in these experiments. This was before the experiments were ever conducted?
A May I ask that the question be repeated?
Q You knew that Rascher in his letter to Himmler of 15 May 1941 stated the experiments are made at permanent Luftwaffe testing stations for altitude research, Munich, the experiments from which the subjects can of course die, and that these experiments would take place with my cooperation. These experiments were essential for high altitude flights and cannot be carried out as has been tried with monkeys who offer entirely different test conditions. I had a very confidential talk with a representative of the Air Force Surgeon who makes these experiments, who is also of the opinion that the question could only be solved by experiments on human persons. Feeble-minded could also be used as test material. You knew that Rascher was writing to Himmler about experimenting on people and that people might die as a result of the experiments?
A I cannot say today whether at that time I knew that so precisely.
Q He asked Himmler to make available two or three professional criminals for the experiments.
Q He asked you to make available, that is, he asked Himmler to make available two or three professional criminals for the experiment? (Hesitation on the part of witness to answer) Are you going to answer the question, witness?
A Whether I knew that, I can not say now.
Q All right. Returning then to your letter to Rascher, the last paragraph of the letter you say therein: "I shall refer as soon as possible to the second part of your letter." What was the second part of the letter, Were you and he talking about feeble-minded people?
A I can not say now what that was, because I just don't remember details from that time.
Q Then, so far as you are concerned the only people that you knew on whom was experimented were criminals from the concentration camps and Germans who had been condemned to death, is that right?
A What the regulations were I did not know. I merely passed on Himmler's instructions.
Q Did not you read this correspondence. You were writing letters in it.
A Nevertheless, I did not know.
Q You did not know anything about it?
A No. After this great length of time I can no longer say what I knew then. It was only after an interrogation that finally recalled it to my memory, and then in a broad outline, I did not know details.
Q Did not you know that people had died of these experiments?
A I can not say whether I knew that or not. It also happened that I did not read the letters or reports themselves, because these were matters that had nothing to do with my sphere of work.
Q What was your sphere of work. You seemed to have written a lot of letters to various people connected with this enterprise, what was your sphere of work in the SS?
A I was in charge of the receipts and complaints from the population and from the ranks of the SS.
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Q Complaints about what?
AAbout the unjust treatment on the part of SS members, or other offices.
Q Do you remember writing to Rascher in April of 1942, saying that "Himmler had seen Rascher's letter of April 16th, and that he, Himmler, had shown the same interest in this report as in the one you sent recently, and he would like to make up for him an over-all report of the experiments carried out to date he would like to present personally to the General Fieldmarshall Milch. Kind regards to your wife and yourself. Heil Hitler. Yours, Rudolf Brandt, SS Obersturmfuehrer." You had been promoted by that time, hadn't you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember writing that letter?
A Only because it was shown to me again. If it had not been shown to me here I should not have remembered it.
Q If you had not seen the correspondence which is here involved, you would not even had remembered Dr. Rascher, would you?
A Yes, I certainly would have remembered Rascher.
Q Did you ever find out if any people other than German concentration camp inmates were being used in these experiments?
A It could be seen from the correspondence that also Russians were used.
Q You still not a letter about that, didn't you, from Rascher?
A From Rascher, and an inquiry directed to Himmler regarding a pardon.
Q Do you recall writing an answer about that telegram to Himmler as to whether or not Poles and Russians who had survived the experiments were to be pardoned?
A Himmler had decided that they should not be pardoned.
Q And didn't you answer the inquiry from Rascher about it. It was answered by you?
A On Himmler's orders.
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DR. BERGOLD: Excuse me, what was date of this telegram?
MR. DENNEY: I do not have the date here now. This afternoon I shall have it. I was just making inquiry as to this witness' recollection as who these people were. The witness admitted that the inquiry was made, and by Himmler in reference to the question whether or not Poles and Jews who survived the experiments were to he pardoned, and the witness has said that he made an answer to that inquiry in the name of Himmler to the effect that they were not. I do not have that document here but I shall have it this afternoon.
DR. BERGOLD: The date is of importance because we do not know to what experiments this telegram refers, the SS carried out a great number of experiments.
THE COURT: The date will be furnished this afternoon.
MR. DENNEY: I believe it was October 1942. I am not certain, and I don't want to say it for the record at this time.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. When did you first learn that there were deaths involved in these experiments, if you did learn?
A. I cannot say the date.
Q. Well, you must have some idea as to when it was?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Do you recall getting a letter from Nini Rascher? Do you know who Nini Rascher was?
A. Was Rascher's wife, yes, sir. Nini Rascher was his wife.
Q. Do you recall getting a letter from her addressed to you in April of 1942, dated April 13th, in which she says: "My husband asks you to get him the permission, if possibly, of the Reichsfuehrer to take important colored photos of his new preparations of persons just dissected. As a rule only black and white photography is permitted in the camp; as he wants to evaluate the preparations later on, these photos will he very important in his work.
May I ask you for a short early answer. This letter is forwarded by courier. With their best regards and many thanks, I remain with -- Heil Hitler, yours respectively, Nini Rascher."
1342 a Do you remember getting that letter from her?
A. It was shown to me during my interrogation, and that is why I remember it.
Q. What did you do about it when you heard that people had been dying there?
A. I cannot say that, probably I did nothing.
Q. Did you know a General in the SS named Gluecks?
A. He was in charge of the concentration camps.
Q. All of them?
A. I assume so, but I don't know.
Q. He was at Oranienburg was he not, in 1942, April?
A. I believe that was his office.
Q. You said you did not do anything about this letter. Did not you send a telegram to SS-General Gluecks in which you said the Reichsfuehrer-SS has permitted SS 2nd Lt. Dr. Rascher, who conducts the experiments in Dachau, to make also colored photographs - "In connection with these experiments will you please take steps accordingly." Do you recall sending such a message to General Gluecks of the SS?
A. Actually, I don't remember it, but on Himmler's orders it was issued as only instructions given by Hitler, which, however, I did not decide on.
Q. Yes, but Mrs. Rascher wrote you on 13th of April, saying she wanted you to get permission from Himmler, if possible, and you apparently did get the permission, because you signed the telegram, "Brandt." You did not say "By order of Reichsfuehrer-SS." You just sent it to him, and told him to let him take the pictures of the dead bodies?
A. That does not change the fact that it was Himmler's decision.
Q. Did you make any inquiries about these people who had died, either on Himmler's request, or as a result of your own curiosity?
A. No.
Q. You did not get in touch with Rascher?
A. No.
Q. You did not get in touch with Mrs. Rascher?
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A. No.
Q. You did not get in touch with anybody at Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Of course, you knew these were criminals they were experimenting on?
A: I assume that I knew that at that time, but I could not state that for certain here under oath, in other words, in general, these matters did not belong to my sphere of work, and for that reason I did not concern myself with them, but singly submitted the question that arose to Himmler and passed on his instructions.
Q. You had been in the picture of these experiments for almost a year by April 1942, so much so, that Mrs. Rascher wrote to you rather than to Himmler, and she told you in the letter - "persons just dissected." You knew that Rascher was conducting these experiments for the Luftwaffe and the SS, didn't you?
A. I only knew that experiments were being carried out. I knew of no details.
Q. Well, whom did you think they were being carried out for? They certainly were not for the Navy, were they?
A. I did not think about that at all.
Q. You just knew that Rascher, and some other people down at Dachau were submitting or carrying out experiments on human beings, and that people were dying, and you did not know any more about it?
A. I know more about it, you say? No.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps this would be a convenient time to adjourn, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal. You are about to recess for lunch, and the question is still open when I shall be able to see the witness Dorsch and Lieutenant-General Engel to speak to before they are produced in court in the afternoon. I have not as yet had the opportunity to speak to them. The question is how can that best be effectuated.
THE PRESIDENT: Obviously it is to be done this afternoon. Dr. Bergold, the question is when can this Tribunal return this "Loaner" to the Tribunal One. He was excused until one-thirty, and I had hoped you would be through with him by that time, but I dare say we can keep him overtime if you have not finished.
MR. DENNEY: I shall try to be as brief as I can, Your Honor. I have a few more documents to put to him, and I will be as expeditious as I possibly can.
THE PRESIDENT: I think perhaps we had better recess within the wrath of Judge Beals, and bring him back here at one-thirty, and then you can examine him deliberately.
MR. DENNEY: I might add -
THE PRESIDENT: How long, Dr. Bergold, will you need to interrogate the witness before you call them?
DR. BERGOLD: I shall take three-quarters of an hour for both.
THE PRESIDENT: For both, together.
DR. BERGOLD: For both.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess at this time until one-thirty, and then conclude with the examination of this witness, then we will give Dr. Bergold sometime in which to interview his witnesses, and resume as soon as we can after that.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing re-convened at 1330 hours)
THE MARSHALL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued RUDOLPH BRANDT -- Resumed
Q. Witness, do you recall in March of 1942 -- on 21 March, to be exact--writing to Sievers in reply to a letter of Sievers of 9 March, concerning Dr. Rascher, in which you said, "Reference is made to the subatmospheric pressure experiments which are being carried out on concentration camp inmates in Dachau camp by the Air Force."? Do you remember writing to Sievers on that subject in March of 1942?
A. I can not recall that. It is possible that I have written. It is quite possible that I wrote, but I can not recall it now.
Q. And just so the record will be clear, the telegram which was sent concerning the Poles and Russians by Rascher was dated 20 October 1942, and it was addressed to you, and the reply which you sent was dated 22 October 1942, and was sent to an SS-Obersturmfuehrer Schnitzler? Did you know an SS-Obersturmfuehrer named Schnitzler -- S-C-H-N-I-T-Z-L-E-R-?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was he stationed?
A. He was the adjutant of Himmler in Munich.
Q. And the telegram to Schnitzler was signed by you; to you remember that?
A. All those documents which are submitted here carry my name because, at Himmler's orders, I passed on his decisions.
Q. And you told Schnitzler that the information should be passed on to Rascher, that the Himmler decree on pardoning of experimental subjects did not apply to Poles and Russians? Do you recall that?
A. As far as it is contained in that teletype letter, yes, but I don't really remember it practically. (Witness examined document.) Yes, that is the letter from Himmler which I passed on.
Q. The telegram which I have just shown you is dated 22 October, and it is signed "Brandt", isn't it?
A. I signed it, yes.
DR. BERGOLD: These documents have not been introduced in the translated form. I believe it would be a good idea if that would be done so that I can take note of the various details.
MR. DENNEY: We'll offer them at the proper time, Your Honor. I am showing the witness a photostatic copy of the German original.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, Mr. Denney says that a copy will be furnished when the instrument is offered in evidence later.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Now, on 27 April 1942 you wrote a letter to Rascher in which you stated "The Reichsfuehrer has seen your letter of 16 April 1942. He has shown the same interest in this report as in the one which you sent recently. He would like you to make up for him an overall report on the experiments carried out to date, which he would like to present personally to General Field Marshal Milch. With kind regards to your wife and yourself, Heil Hitler, Rudolph Brandt, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer." Do you remember sending that letter to Rascher?
A. I don't recall it, but, as it is here now, I must have written it.
Q. You don't know anything about it?
A. No, I don't recall it any more.
Q. Did you ever see Milch in Himmler's office?
A. Yes.
Q. How often?
A. Not very often.
Q. But he knew him, didn't he?
A. I did not understand the question.
Q. Did Milch know Himmler?
A. That seems very possible.
Q. Now, in October of 1942 - on the 7th of October - do you recall a request made by a Camp Commander who was a Sturmbannfuehrer named Weiss, in a telegram to you sent to number 8 Prinz Albrechtstrasse, stating that the Commander of the Concentration Camp Dachau asks to instruct the Brigadefuehrer Bluecks, of whom we have spoken here before, to send from Ravensbrueck to Dachau the four women wanted by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher for his experiments? Do you recall getting such a telegram from Sturmbannfuehrer Weiss?
A. I recall that because that telegram -- I was shown the telegram in my interrogation, otherwise I would not have recalled it at all.
Q. Do you know what they were going to use these women for?
A. Yes; it becomes clear from the other document, which I was shown in my own trial, that they were used for rewarming purposes on the experimental subjects which were used for the chilling experiments, but that I only learned from the documents here.
Q. Do you know a man named Meine, who was an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer?
A. He was not an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer; he was my collaborator, and an Obersturmfuehrer.
Q. Obersturmfuehrer. Well, was his name Meine?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he work for you?
A. He was my collaborator.
Q. And did he send the telegram to Gluecks, at your request, in answer to or pursuant to the request from Weiss?
A. That becomes clear from the files; yes.
Q. In which it stated: "SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt asks you to give instructions for the four women ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS to be put at the disposal of Dr. Rascher, to be sent from Ravensbrueck to Dachau"?
A. Yes; after having seen this document here. Yes.
Q. Did Himmler send all of his correspondence out through you?
2b Feb. 47-A - 14-2 - LJG - Kupperstein (DA)
A. Part of it. Letters were also sent after immediate conferences with people, of which I had no knowledge at all.
Q. Now, do you remember writing to Rascher on September 6, 1942, stating that Field Marshal Milch has answered in the meantime the letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS of 25 August 1942; "He writes that he intends to summon you and Dr. Romberg for a report in the near future"?
A. I have no memory of this, as in all these cases. The actual facts were recalled to me here.
Q. Who was the man who handled the negotiations between Himmler and Milch, in this regard? Was it not General der Waffen SS Karl Wolf?
A. Whether he had talked, I could not say. As far as the records show, he wrote to Milch once or twice. I don't know whether he saw him personally -- I do not know.
Q. And you still tell the Court that you don't know for whom these experiments were being carried out?
A. For the Luftwaffe. After all, Dr. Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe.
Q. While the SS was making available these concentration camp inmates for experimental purposes?
A. I would think so.
Q. Well, don't you know?
A. I have not the knowledge of the details which you may think I have.
Q. Well, everybody seemed to write to you -- Sievers, the head of the Ahnenerbe, Dr. Rascher, Mrs. Rascher. When people wanted the right to photograph bodies that had been dissected, bodies that had obviously been killed in these experiments, when people wanted to get women - live women - for the purpose of using their bodies to rewarm people who had been submerged in the freezing tank, everyone wrote to you.
A. All these cases have really been attracted to Himmler. It might have been just as easily attracted to another man.
Q. You replied to many of these inquiries, did you not?
A. Yes; of course they were replied to.
Q. Did Dr. Hippke ever come over to Himmler's office to see him?
A. I do not know.
Q. Well, did you ever see him there?
A. I don't think I've ever seen him, except here in Nurnberg.
Q. You never saw him around the offices where Himmler was?
A. I do not recall having seen him.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, Your Honor. Oh, excuse me!
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Were you a member of the Party?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join?
A. In 1932.
Q. When were you captured?
A. May, 1945.
Q. Where?
A. In Bremervoehrde.
Q. By the British?
A. Yes; by the British.
Q. Were you taken with Himmler when he was?
A. No; one day before Himmler was captured.
Q. Was he captured up there too?
A. He was captured south of Bremervoehrde.
MR. DENNEY: No more questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, when you were asked before, what the relations were between Himmler and Milch, you stated that you might have misunderstood the first question, in this matter. Do you definitely knew that Milch was in Himmler's office? Did you see him yourself?
A. I misunderstood that question completely. I did not hear the name Milch. But what I heard was - or I believed I heard - : "Did you know the Munich office of Himmler's" which of course is something entirely different.