I remember Major Dr. Krelner, who also asked me to stop in and again and again I had to say that that would not do because, I said, the 1364a Todt Organization did not carry out construction in the Reich.
I was pressed continuously by the Fighter Staff, because it was the organization that would benefit from these constructions,
Q Do you know whether Milch went in that direction too, or only Sauer?
A That I cannot say. I did not speak about that to him myself. I did speak with Sauer and a few other gentlemen -- I believe with Schlemp, 1364-b who was later representative of the Todt Organization in the Fighter Staff.
Q When was that first pressure on the part of Sauer? Was that before March of 1944? That might have been eight months before you were put in charge.
A Yes. That was in my opinion oven earlier, but I cannot say precisely. It might have been in February, even.
Q. Do you know whether Sauer visited the Fuehrer in this matter?
A I was not present, but I assumed that it must have been so, I cannot prove it, however.
Q So, This afternoon you told me what you thought Milch's function was in the Fighter Staff, You used a rather striking expression. Would you like to repeat it here?
A I called him "the breakfast director",
Q I ask the defendant to pardon the expression. He shouldn't hold it against me.
Q What do you mean by this "breakfast director"?
A Well, it is sort of difficult for no to say that.
Q Milch won't be angry.
A Well, I only saw him at a Fighter Staff meeting once, when he invited me and when he asked for the support of the Todt Organization. No explained to me the general situation. He told me what his worries and troubles were, but the real work, the whole functioning of the thing, I don't believe he concerned himself with. That is why I used tho expression "breakfast director", but perhaps that was a little exaggerated.
Q I quite understand. After the end of April 1944, when you were commissioned will these construction matters, what did you do?
AAs I told Hitler very exactly, I took German Todt Organization units from France and from the Atlantic Wall.
Q How many was it?
A 2,000 or 3,000 -- I cannot remember the number exactly.
Q Your affidavit says 10,000.
A No, that is incorrect. That cannot have been the number in France. The second time that I went to the Plenipotentiary General for 1365-A Chemistry Professor Grau and told him of the serious situation, and I finally brought him to the point of giving me 15,000 workers from his department.
Q What workers were these?
A First of all, in the Baltic States -- that was a Todt Organization itself -- I took away most of the German workers, and took some elsewhere as additional workers, engineers, experts of sons sort or another, machinists. Then came Leuna on the 10th or 12th of May 1944. That was on the occasion of the first attack on Leuna. At that time there was a conference with Hitler with regard to the oil situation. He said, "This cannot be tolerated -- that at the very moment when we are, as a result of the air attacks, in need of oil, workers are taken away from Leuna."
I then answered him that first of all I had undertaken this measure before the air attack, and secondly, it was not a question of cutting down on oil production, but of oil capacity. Hitler took over and said, "No, that cannot be." Then Speer said, "If we don't get the workers, we can't do the building." Hitler said, "Quiet down, you will get 50,000 Italians," and then I said, "I don't believe that", and I said that for the following reasons. We as the Todt Organization had taken such workers from Italy for the construction program Riese in Schlesien, but we did not do this via Sauckel but by applying to Italian firms to take over construction commissions in Germany, and then they automatically brought their workers, their directors and architects, and so on with them, particularly after we had assured them that we with cur organization -- that is to say, with the Todt Organization in Italy -- would take care of paying wages, paying for the hospitalization fees, insurance, and so on, but at the moment when workers were fetched by Sauckel, I understood clearly that workers such as we needed would not be provided in any considerable numbers. At any rate, I told Hitler, "I do not believe in these Italian workers, and I won't believe in them until they have crossed the Brenner Pass." He then said to me, "You can believe in them because tomorrow Mussolini is signing an agreement that 1,000,000 workers will come to Germany."
He then said to me: "You can believe in then, because, tomorrow, Mussolini is finding an agreement that one million workers will come to Germany." If I nay mention it, it is also worthy of mention, that in January, the beginning of January, I was at a conference with Hitler, or rather, I did not take part in it, but I knew of it. There, a new worker contingent was demanded, and, in this conference, Hitler himself named the number of 250,000 workers mainly for the construction of bomb proof facilities. In other words, it wasn't Speer but Hitler who demanded those workers, and it is possible - that at any rate, it is the way I construetit now - that he was thinking of these fighter plants. Then I asked Hitler to obtain for me 10,000 OT Todt Organization workers from Southern Russia. I must mention that here, because I did that as Speer's representative with Hitler. I could have said to Speer that he should give me those 10,000 workers. I had to do that through Hitler, because the High Commanders, in this case the High Commander of the Army Group of Southern Russia, were in charge of these people and they had to be released by them. Thereupon those 10,000 OT workers were released. However, they unfortunately arrived very slowly and some of them never got to the fighter plant, but were taken over by Speer to build bomb proof constructions for roller bearings - ball bearing plants - in Wellen, in Thuringia, and then, when no workers came, the plants were to be built by Hungarian Jews. I do not know precisely when it was, but I do remember an armaments conference in Linz - I guess it was about the middle of June or maybe later, but I can't say for sure - and it was then that the first one began to arrive.
Q Were they approved by Hitler?
A Yes.
Q Witness, when you of the Todt Organizations fetched Italians on your own initiative, were they volunteers or were they more or less forced labor?
A Precisely in Italy, we had very good work because as a matter of principle we turned to Italian firms, gave then contracts and they provided the workers. I believe I can say that the Todt Organizations was 1367 a known for taking model care of its workers.
I like to mention, for instance, in Norway and Holland, the Dutch or Norwegian Todt worker received higher wages than the German OT, who was working right beside him. I consider it very important to make this statement here, if I am permitted to make use of this opportunity.
Q But that is not an answer to my question, whether they were volunteers or forced labor?
A They were not forced. They were brought by their firms.
Q Through the Italian firms?
A Yes; that was, from the very beginning, the intention, so that the Italian firms could provide their trained and expert personnel to us, and in this way, they were simply volunteers; volunteers do much better work than people who are forced.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION DY MR. KING:
Q Witness, you stated that Milch was only present at a few of the early meetings of the Jaegerstab. May I ask you -
A What I said refers only to these meetings of the fighter staff at which I was present and that was perhaps four or five.
Q Now, you said, in your affidavit, which has been submitted as a prosecution exhibit referred to by Dr. Bergold, you received an order for the construction of fighter factories at the end of April 1944?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall being present at a conference at Berchtesgaden with Goering, among others, on the 19th of April, 1944?
A I cannot say whether that was the precise date, but I did take part in some such conference.
Q Do you recall who was present at that conference?
A Yes. Goering was there, Filch was there; the others I'm not sure about. Sauer -- I'm not sure he was there. I know for sure that Milch and Goering were present, but as to the others I no longer recall.
Q Do you recall what was discussed at this conference?
A The construction of fighter plants was discussed there, and, if I remember, Goering pointed out that the OT was to receive all sorts of support but I do not remember the details at the moment.
Q And a few days later, on April 21, 1944, you received the order from Hitler to build the six fighter plants?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall that possible sources of labor were discussed at this meeting? That is, labor for the construction of the fighter factories?
A I should like to assume that, but I do not remember precisely now. Probably all sorts of conditions and possibilities were discussed, but I cannot answer this precisely.
Q You were discussing a large scale construction; you must have known where this labor was to come from. Can you tell me what possible sources were discussed at that meeting?
A I do not knew whether or not that question was discussed at this conference. I assume that it was, but that was such a long time ago that it is impossible for me to recall these details. But I was clear in my own mind about the fact. That we needed so and so many workers, was of course obvious. I did make the demand that this construction program should receive top priority and I stated previously that I wanted primarily German workers, which was then done, and in the sector of the plenipotentiary General for Chemistry, I wanted to take some workers; I was convinced of the fact that in Germany it was still possible to obtain workers. Later, when we of the OT took over the construction program in Germany, we saw that a large number of construction offices had so little manpower that they had to stop production, and there again we found workers. If I may mention this again, the whole situation was somewhat unclear because when we took over building these fighter factories, the entire construction had to be turned over to the OT, and no one could take the responsibility for such important constructions unless he could control the direction of the whole construction program, but, with the best will in the world, I can't recall the details. There wore so many conferences, one followed the other so rapidly, I do not any longer recall.
Q Who was your representative at meetings of the Fighter Staff?
1369a
A Schlemp, first of all; even before I was commissioned with this task he was the construction technical adviser or expert in general. Sauer asked me at that time to regard him as the liaison engineer between the Todt Organization and the Fighter Staff. Then, about the middle of June, Schlemp became Group Leader of the OT unit in Prague, for which reason I provided one of my best men, namely, Knipping, and I used him in what had previously been Schlemp's capacity.
Q Do you recall that Schlemp, and later Knipping, reported on the progress of the construction to the Jaegerstab?
A I am convinced that they did because that was their job.
Q Now, during this period, that is, the period, when these six to ten fighter factories were constructed, approximately how many men were used on these projects?
A I shall have to think for a moment how many were really under construction, because I know that there were five fighter factories that did not get any further, because they did not get the workers to build the other ones, and, particularly, because after concentrated air attacks on the part of the enemy, on tho hydraulic works, the construction work to rebuild the hydraulic works received first priority. From the first raid on Leuna until the Fall of 1944 one hundred twelve additional men were transferred from Leuna to reconstruct tho hydraulic works, consequently, it was simply impossible both in the questions of number and in the questions of work intensity to take care of the fighter program. The fighter production task simply was not so important in comparison to these others because it could not be solved any more. How many workers really were employed I can only estimate at this time. It was perhaps twelve to fifteen thousand, but I cannot even say, even half-way precisely after this long period of time.
Q Now can you give me percentage wise the breakdown of this labor by groups, that is, prisoners of war labor, foreign labor, concentration camp labor, German labor?
A. That I could only do at this moment with the most general estimate, with vagueness, in Kauffering there were perhaps sixty percent from the concentration camps; however, prisoners of war so far as I know were not there at all. The rest must have been Germans. In Muehldorf where the second factory was, the situation was roughly the same, but I really cannot say. I visited each one of these factories only twice, because after tho attack on the hydraulic plants, the transportation system and the Rhino bridges, I was no longer in a position to take care of these tasks.
Q. Now did you obtain any of this labor for the construction projects? Do you recall obtaining any of this from Schmelter?
A. I take it that Hitler himself had approved these workers. Our request went to Schmelter, and he was working his own men in that Todt organization, in the fighter staff, and it was his job to settle the details when they should come, and also the payment of workers, and such natters.
That was Schmelter's job, and Schmelter was told that this in general is the technical task, and he knew that Hitler had approved the workers, and so 1371 a it was his job to take care of the details, and to inform the Einsatzgruppe what it should do.
I did not take care of these things in detail after that.
Q. Now about Kauffering, do you recall how large a construction was at Kauffering. I am speaking both of Kauffering One and Kauffering Two?
A. You mean the technical construction?
Q. Yes.
A. There was one main hall in Kauffering One, about throe hundred meters long, ninety meters wide, with six stories as far as I remember. Kauffering Two stopped production later and everything was concentrated in Kauffering One.
Q. Do you recall how much of this construction was completed?
A. I should think about three-fourths of this construction was completed. At the last time I visited this construction that was shortly before the collapse, the machines were being installed in on one side of the building, and that is as far as it got.
Q. And to whom was this plant allocated?
A. That I cannot say. In my opinion Messerschmidt, but I must be careful what I say here, because in the last week before the collapse there were negotiations with the Armament Staff. I cannot remember what that situation was in Kauffering, but in Muehldorf there was suddenly talk of putting Buna in there. That changed continuously, dependent on the war situation. Once Speer wanted to set up a steel foundry in the fighter factory which was under construction in the Rhineland, which was then later changed.
Q. That answers my question, witness. Now on these inspections at Kauffering, do you recall that any Luftwaffe representatives inspected these construction sites?
A. That I don't know. I cannot say. A Colonel of the Luftwaffe was there but in his capacity of a representative of the Armement, also for the Armament Commando.
Q. Now getting back to this meeting of April 19, 1944, do you recall that Speer was present there?
A. No. I am sure he was not.
Q. How were your relations with Speer at that time?
A. They were tense. Speer I believe did not regard the OT as a sort of construction organization as he wanted it to be. I should have to go into great detail on this subject, to make a statement.
Q. I think that suffices. Now with regard to the recruitment of those fifty thousand Italians, which you discussed with Dr. Bergold, do you recall who was to handle the recruitment of these Italians for work in the Reich?
A. To be sure that I do not make any false statement. Did you ask this in regard to the question as to who recruited the 50,000 Italians that Hitler had promised.
Q My concern is as through what channel were these Italians that were promised Hitler by Mussolini, through what channels were they recruited?
A. As I said before, Hardly one of the 50,000 Italians actually arrived. That was taken care of by Sauckel, but we of the Todt Organization, through the OT offices in Italy contracted Italian firms directly for a construction in Silesia, and that was done by the OT office in Italy.
Q. Now with regard to these Italians, do you know what provision was made for the guarding of these that were to arrive, that is, enroute?
A. Of that I know nothing, because they did not arrive. They were not watched, or guarded at all. They were free workers, there was no reason to guard them.
Q. Now witness, outside of Kauffering, can you tell me where and under what names these other fighter factories were to be located?
A. In Muehldorf, and then there was a factory in Vaihingen.
Q. Just a minute. Now with regard to Nuehldorf, can you tell me what that was to be used for, who it was to be used by?
A. First it was thought of as a fighter factory, and then there was previously, a. few weeks before the collapse, a conference of the Armament Industry in Munich, at which it was agreed that it could be used for the manufacture of buna; then suddenly, they turned away from that.
Q. What time did that conference at Munich take place?
A. That must have been perhaps at the end of March 1945.
Q. Now, with regard to Muehldorf, can you tell me whore, primarily, this labor was coming from?
A. These were Hungarian Jews. There were Germans there, out where they came from, that I don't know.
Q. Well now, with regard to those Hungarian Jews, can you tell mo whether that was a result of a special action in Hungary?
A. I don't believe so, but I don't know. We were only told that we were going to receive Hungarian Jews. They were already in Germany, if I remember, but where they came from I don't know because I didn't concern myself. I was merely interested in the fact that they actually will come.
Q. But you do recall that Hungarian Jews wore used on that site?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, with regard to these other factories, we have covered Kauffering and Muehldorf, can you toll me the location of the others?
A. Vaihingen-that was a that was already under construction before the OT stepped in.
Q. Witness, where was that located?
A. V-A-I-H-I-N-G-E-N, that is in Wurttemberg.
Q. And how largo was that construction?
A. It was a building about 100 meters by 60, four or five stories high.
Q. And do you recall what type of workers were used in that construction?
A. Concentration camp inmates, but I don't know the number.
Q. And that was in Thuringia?
A. No, in Wurttemberg.
Q. Now, do you recall that any of these factories was to be located in the Protectorate?
A. One was to be erected there, yes, in the neighborhood of Prague, but so far as I know they never got around to it. Perhaps the groundwork was carried out and the machines were shipped there, but the factory itself was not actually built. Then there was to be another one in the Rhineland 1375 I have already mentioned that.
Q Witness, with regard to this factory in the Protectorate, can you give me the code name for that factory?
A. No, I don't know it. It was about 50 kilometers north of Prague.
Q And that was to be used by what company?
A. I can't say; I don't know.
Q Can you give me any indication of the size of that factory?
A The one north of Prague? Yes. That would have been about the same size as Kauffering, roughly, but, as I say, I really don't know whether they got construction under way there.
Q But you were to construct it?
A Yes, it would have been done under my supervision, or under my direction. I was Speer's representative and chief of the Todt Organization.
Q But you don't know how far along or whether construction was initiated there?
A I cannot say for sure. I suppose that they started the construction, that rails and dredgers were installed, but so far as I know they did not get this factory actually built.
Q Now, with regard to this factory in the Rhineland, can you tell me where that was to be located?
A I can't remember the name any more. I was there once, and I can perhaps locate it on the map. It was west of the Rhine, 70 to 80 kilometers, but I can't remember the name any longer. It was under construction and then the construction was interrupted by military events, that is, when the Americans wore moving into the Ruhr area. Nor do I know whether concentration camp inmates were used there.
Q Do you recall whether foreign labor was used?
A In the construction project? That I cannot say.
Q You don't recall constructing any factories for Wiener-Neustadt?
A No.
Q ******** 1376.
A ****** Q *******
