A Schlemp, first of all; even before I was commissioned with this task he was the construction technical adviser or expert in general. Sauer asked me at that time to regard him as the liaison engineer between the Todt Organization and the Fighter Staff. Then, about the middle of June, Schlemp became Group Leader of the OT unit in Prague, for which reason I provided one of my best men, namely, Knipping, and I used him in what had previously been Schlemp's capacity.
Q Do you recall that Schlemp, and later Knipping, reported on the progress of the construction to the Jaegerstab?
A I am convinced that they did because that was their job.
Q Now, during this period, that is, the period, when these six to ten fighter factories were constructed, approximately how many men were used on these projects?
A I shall have to think for a moment how many were really under construction, because I know that there were five fighter factories that did not get any further, because they did not get the workers to build the other ones, and, particularly, because after concentrated air attacks on the part of the enemy, on tho hydraulic works, the construction work to rebuild the hydraulic works received first priority. From the first raid on Leuna until the Fall of 1944 one hundred twelve additional men were transferred from Leuna to reconstruct tho hydraulic works, consequently, it was simply impossible both in the questions of number and in the questions of work intensity to take care of the fighter program. The fighter production task simply was not so important in comparison to these others because it could not be solved any more. How many workers really were employed I can only estimate at this time. It was perhaps twelve to fifteen thousand, but I cannot even say, even half-way precisely after this long period of time.
Q Now can you give me percentage wise the breakdown of this labor by groups, that is, prisoners of war labor, foreign labor, concentration camp labor, German labor?
A. That I could only do at this moment with the most general estimate, with vagueness, in Kauffering there were perhaps sixty percent from the concentration camps; however, prisoners of war so far as I know were not there at all. The rest must have been Germans. In Muehldorf where the second factory was, the situation was roughly the same, but I really cannot say. I visited each one of these factories only twice, because after tho attack on the hydraulic plants, the transportation system and the Rhino bridges, I was no longer in a position to take care of these tasks.
Q. Now did you obtain any of this labor for the construction projects? Do you recall obtaining any of this from Schmelter?
A. I take it that Hitler himself had approved these workers. Our request went to Schmelter, and he was working his own men in that Todt organization, in the fighter staff, and it was his job to settle the details when they should come, and also the payment of workers, and such natters.
That was Schmelter's job, and Schmelter was told that this in general is the technical task, and he knew that Hitler had approved the workers, and so 1371 a it was his job to take care of the details, and to inform the Einsatzgruppe what it should do.
I did not take care of these things in detail after that.
Q. Now about Kauffering, do you recall how large a construction was at Kauffering. I am speaking both of Kauffering One and Kauffering Two?
A. You mean the technical construction?
Q. Yes.
A. There was one main hall in Kauffering One, about throe hundred meters long, ninety meters wide, with six stories as far as I remember. Kauffering Two stopped production later and everything was concentrated in Kauffering One.
Q. Do you recall how much of this construction was completed?
A. I should think about three-fourths of this construction was completed. At the last time I visited this construction that was shortly before the collapse, the machines were being installed in on one side of the building, and that is as far as it got.
Q. And to whom was this plant allocated?
A. That I cannot say. In my opinion Messerschmidt, but I must be careful what I say here, because in the last week before the collapse there were negotiations with the Armament Staff. I cannot remember what that situation was in Kauffering, but in Muehldorf there was suddenly talk of putting Buna in there. That changed continuously, dependent on the war situation. Once Speer wanted to set up a steel foundry in the fighter factory which was under construction in the Rhineland, which was then later changed.
Q. That answers my question, witness. Now on these inspections at Kauffering, do you recall that any Luftwaffe representatives inspected these construction sites?
A. That I don't know. I cannot say. A Colonel of the Luftwaffe was there but in his capacity of a representative of the Armement, also for the Armament Commando.
Q. Now getting back to this meeting of April 19, 1944, do you recall that Speer was present there?
A. No. I am sure he was not.
Q. How were your relations with Speer at that time?
A. They were tense. Speer I believe did not regard the OT as a sort of construction organization as he wanted it to be. I should have to go into great detail on this subject, to make a statement.
Q. I think that suffices. Now with regard to the recruitment of those fifty thousand Italians, which you discussed with Dr. Bergold, do you recall who was to handle the recruitment of these Italians for work in the Reich?
A. To be sure that I do not make any false statement. Did you ask this in regard to the question as to who recruited the 50,000 Italians that Hitler had promised.
Q My concern is as through what channel were these Italians that were promised Hitler by Mussolini, through what channels were they recruited?
A. As I said before, Hardly one of the 50,000 Italians actually arrived. That was taken care of by Sauckel, but we of the Todt Organization, through the OT offices in Italy contracted Italian firms directly for a construction in Silesia, and that was done by the OT office in Italy.
Q. Now with regard to these Italians, do you know what provision was made for the guarding of these that were to arrive, that is, enroute?
A. Of that I know nothing, because they did not arrive. They were not watched, or guarded at all. They were free workers, there was no reason to guard them.
Q. Now witness, outside of Kauffering, can you tell me where and under what names these other fighter factories were to be located?
A. In Muehldorf, and then there was a factory in Vaihingen.
Q. Just a minute. Now with regard to Nuehldorf, can you tell me what that was to be used for, who it was to be used by?
A. First it was thought of as a fighter factory, and then there was previously, a. few weeks before the collapse, a conference of the Armament Industry in Munich, at which it was agreed that it could be used for the manufacture of buna; then suddenly, they turned away from that.
Q. What time did that conference at Munich take place?
A. That must have been perhaps at the end of March 1945.
Q. Now, with regard to Muehldorf, can you tell me whore, primarily, this labor was coming from?
A. These were Hungarian Jews. There were Germans there, out where they came from, that I don't know.
Q. Well now, with regard to those Hungarian Jews, can you tell mo whether that was a result of a special action in Hungary?
A. I don't believe so, but I don't know. We were only told that we were going to receive Hungarian Jews. They were already in Germany, if I remember, but where they came from I don't know because I didn't concern myself. I was merely interested in the fact that they actually will come.
Q. But you do recall that Hungarian Jews wore used on that site?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, with regard to these other factories, we have covered Kauffering and Muehldorf, can you toll me the location of the others?
A. Vaihingen-that was a that was already under construction before the OT stepped in.
Q. Witness, where was that located?
A. V-A-I-H-I-N-G-E-N, that is in Wurttemberg.
Q. And how largo was that construction?
A. It was a building about 100 meters by 60, four or five stories high.
Q. And do you recall what type of workers were used in that construction?
A. Concentration camp inmates, but I don't know the number.
Q. And that was in Thuringia?
A. No, in Wurttemberg.
Q. Now, do you recall that any of these factories was to be located in the Protectorate?
A. One was to be erected there, yes, in the neighborhood of Prague, but so far as I know they never got around to it. Perhaps the groundwork was carried out and the machines were shipped there, but the factory itself was not actually built. Then there was to be another one in the Rhineland 1375 I have already mentioned that.
Q Witness, with regard to this factory in the Protectorate, can you give me the code name for that factory?
A. No, I don't know it. It was about 50 kilometers north of Prague.
Q And that was to be used by what company?
A. I can't say; I don't know.
Q Can you give me any indication of the size of that factory?
A The one north of Prague? Yes. That would have been about the same size as Kauffering, roughly, but, as I say, I really don't know whether they got construction under way there.
Q But you were to construct it?
A Yes, it would have been done under my supervision, or under my direction. I was Speer's representative and chief of the Todt Organization.
Q But you don't know how far along or whether construction was initiated there?
A I cannot say for sure. I suppose that they started the construction, that rails and dredgers were installed, but so far as I know they did not get this factory actually built.
Q Now, with regard to this factory in the Rhineland, can you tell me where that was to be located?
A I can't remember the name any more. I was there once, and I can perhaps locate it on the map. It was west of the Rhine, 70 to 80 kilometers, but I can't remember the name any longer. It was under construction and then the construction was interrupted by military events, that is, when the Americans wore moving into the Ruhr area. Nor do I know whether concentration camp inmates were used there.
Q Do you recall whether foreign labor was used?
A In the construction project? That I cannot say.
Q You don't recall constructing any factories for Wiener-Neustadt?
A No.
Q ******** 1376.
A ****** Q *******
Q Or the Aus Motor Works at Steyr, in Austria
A No.
Q Focke-Wulf, in Bremen?
1376a
A No, in Bromen we only built a U-boat factory.
Q Do you recall constructing any factories for Heinkel?
A That I don't know. I wasn't really interested in such questions, because I received the data from the Fighter Staff, and the Fighter Staff did the actual construction. The engineer of the OT built the house, and then the fighter staff took care of the rest with the construction firms. There were no discussions at all or. my part with construction firms. Moreover, I didn't even have time to carry cut such things.
Q But you got your labor through Schmelter, who was a member of the Jaegerstab?
A Yes, he was a member of the Fighter Staff, and I have already said that he was also the leader of the Arbeitseinsatz in the OT. He was in charge. At first he was entirely within the OT, and. then later he was what you might call the leader for the allocation of labor in Speer's Ministry, and was in charge later of the allocation of labor in the OT. At the same time, he performed the same function in the Fighter Staff, so that automatically there was a connection between tho OT and the Fighter Staff.
MR. KING: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I have one more question. When were these Hungarian Jews put to work at Muehldorf?
A I do not know about Muehldorf, but I can recall that at Kauffering the first ones came--and hero I must guess-at the end or the beginning of June 1944.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, I have no further questions.
MR. KING: I have one further question, if Your Honor pleases.
DR. BERGOLD: I have just heard that the interpreter was inaccurate. The witness spoke of tho end and the middle of June, and the interpreter said "the beginning of June."
THE INTERPRETER: "The middle or the end of June" is what the witness 1377A said, but he is not sure about it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KING:
Q Now witness, with respect to this construction at Kauffering, can you tell me when that was initiated?
A In may of 1944 it must have begun, the beginning of May.
Q And that was also true of the other fighter factories that you were to construct under the Hitler Order?
A Very soon, perhaps two weeks later, the construction in Muehldorf began; the construction in Vaihingen that I mentioned before was already under way, and I took it over. The construction in the Rhineland started considerably later, it could have been perhaps at the end of June; Prague came along, much later.
Q Now, you say that you were at Kauffering on two separate occasions. Did you have any opportunity to-
A (Interposing) I was in Kauffering three times. Do you want to know when? in Hay 1944; at the beginning of January 1945; and then once more just before the capitulation, perhaps two or three weeks before the capitulation.
Q Do you recall anything about the conditions at Kauffering; that is, the conditions of labor?
A I only saw the construction site. When I was in Munic in June, Niebermann, who was responsible for the construction, told me that the Hungarian Jews were poorly clothed and poorly fed in part. I then told the competent SS man, whose name I no longer recall--but he was there in Munich, in Niebermann's office--and I pointed out to him that this was the responsibility of the SS and he should see to it that these men were decently clothed.
Q Witness, do you recall any reports of deaths of Hungarian Jews on the-project?
A Roughly, in October, our physician told me that the fatalities in Kauffering were higher than normal. I then commissioned that physician to take up negotiations with the SS to improve conditions.
I should like to say explicitly that the OT, and this also included myself, was forbidden to enter the camps. The physician tried to send medicines to the camp, and was successful. I can remember a date precisely, namely, one on which I was operated on--that is why I remember it--it was the 13. of November, at which time the physician told me that he had succeeded in bringing these bad hygienic conditions to an end after considerable effort with the SS. I remember the date because it coincided with a sickness of my own.
MR. KING: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness.
(Witness Excused)
DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: What witnesses do you have for tomorrow?
1379a
DR. BERGOLD: None. No other witness have arrived. General Roetter and General Verwaldt and Colonel Petersen, who is in the hands of the Starnberg CIC, are the only main ones still missing, and I have heard nothing from these three.
THE PRESIDENT: We will have a general recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I will ask Mr. Denney and Dr. Bergold to see me in my chambers to lay out the work f r tomorrow. We will recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
(At 1650 hours, 24 February 1947, a recess was "taken until Wednesday, 26 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of tho American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 March 1947, 1015 - 1650 hours, Justice Tons presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in tho courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session, God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring in the witness Roeder.
MANFRED ROEDER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Omniscient and Omnipotent, that I will speak the whole truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, please speak slowly and Blake a certain pause after every question I ask you before you answer my question. This will enable the interpreters to complete the translation of my questions.
Will you tell this Tribunal your first and last name?
A Manfred Roeder.
Q When were you born?
A 20 August 1900.
Q. What were the rank and official position which you last held in the German Wehrmacht?
A. I was last General Judge.
Q. Witness, please make a pause.
A. I was last General Judge and Chief Judge of the Air Fleet IV under Colonel General Lester.
Q. Do you know Mr. Milch?
1381-A
A I met Herr Milch in 1935 for the first time when tho Air Fleet Justice was being built up.
Q From what time on did you have any official dealings with him?
A I had official dealings with him in April 1942--or rather, from 1942 to October 1942 on the occasion of an investigation , which was to clear his death, and, furthermore, the failure of the German air armamont in 1942 in the field of engine manufacture and also in tho body manufacturing of the air armement.
Q Were you not also president of the special court which mas under Milch?
A I was supervisory judge of the Luftgau III and IV. As such I had in the field of those two Luftgaus approximately seven to eight courts. Amongst these in October 1942 a Field Court was set up, FbZ, which was for technical matters, in particular at the disposal of tho GL, as the burdening of all tho other field courts with technical matters was not bearable, and that court was occupied mainly with judges who had a certain technical knowledge.
Q This Tribunal was under Mr. Milch?
A In this Tribunal Field Marshal Milch at tho time was Supreme Judge.
Q Witness, can you tell this Tribunal what your experience with Mr. Milch was--whether ho insisted on strong penalties or was rather lenient?
AAs supervisory judge, I had the judgment and representation responsible be the control division of jurisdiction. Consequently, my task was to be in contact with the individual judges. Field Marshal Milch was considered a man who in his expressions was rather strong and used strong and hard words, but whose attitude later on was very lenient and good, and who very often reduced certain sentences that we passed and deemed necessary in the interest of the great good.
