A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You didn't try civilian workers?
A. Not civilian workers, but if there was any trial against 1402 - a civilians, then only in cases when there was a definite order of the commander-in-chief of that particular armed group.
This occurred when they were prominent members of personalities of the air armament, namely, as I stated before directors, procurers, or instructors, and only people who were of importance. Otherwise, the Luftwaffe courts were not strong enough in order to try large numbers of people.
Q. One more question. Did your friend ever send his ten year old son into a concentration camp to learn a trade?
A. No, the father was the man who learned the trade in the concentration camp. He had a 10 year old son.
Q. No. He was so pleased with having spent four years learning to be a floor-maker, I wondered if he had sent his son back to the concentration camp for that purpose.
A. It is not pleasant for anybody to lose his freedom, and of course that man also suffered under that, his freedom had been stolen. That is the worst that can occur to any man, namely, that his freedom is stolen to which a man is born.
Q. You don't mean, then, that he told you that he had enjoyed it?
A. According to the circumstances, it is cum grano salis as the Latin phrase goes, it is very difficult to understand. There are pleasant things and there are unpleasant things, there are necessary things and unnecessary things. Well, he has been punished and this was a punishment which also offered him a possibility and a chance. He knew how to make a difference between pleasant and unpleasant things.
Q. You mean he saw the bright side of it?
A. Yes, he did, and he saw that he had not only lost something, but that he had learned a lot and that he was on a new road
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this Witness.
(Witness excused)
And now, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: I have part of the document book number 3, but unfortunately it is not complete yet. I have to have it complete, because this document book deals with the incident of the two Russian prisoners of war who had been shot, and if I do not have all the documents, then the context cannot be understood clearly. I hope to be able to got it either today or early tomorrow morning. That is, the last part of the document.
THE PRESIDENT: How long has it been in translation?
DR. BERGOLD: Over a week now.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this is a very expensive delay.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes indeed, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Unless the document book is very large, it seems to me that it should have been ready.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. That is all, Your Honor.
(Indicating size of document book)
THE PRESIDENT: You have shown me a book of about a dozen pages?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor, twelve pages.
THE PRESIDENT: That is ridiculous, that this Tribunal should be absolutely hamstrung for want of a translation of twelve pages. Now that is inexcusable, somewhere. How much of it do you now have?
DR. BERGOLD: There is only supplement number one missing, which is one single page.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I don't know whom to direct this order to, but that page had better be ready at 1:30. This is intolerable. Now, wherever this message carries to, someone ought to hear the fact that we are being delayed here for want of a translation of one page.
This Tribunal will recess until 1:30: everybody will be ready to go on with that book at that time.
DR. BERGOLD: If I may make the following suggestion, perhaps I could give one page to the interpreters and they could translate it very fast.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't care how you do it, doctor, I don't care how anybody does it, but it had better be done at 1:30. We will recess until that time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1330.
(At 1140 hours, a recess was taken until 1330 hours)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has caused an investigation to be made about the Translation Division. In fairness to that Division, these facts ought to be on the record:
Document Book 2 for the Defense, consisting of about 50 pages, it was stated to us, had been given to the Translation Division ten days before it was needed in Court. The record shows it was given to the Translation Division on Friday afternoon and that it was ready to be used on the following Tuesday morning. That is not even ten days.
Supplement Number 2 came to the Translation Division on February 26, in the afternoon, and was ready for use on February 28.
Supplement Number 4 came to the Translation Division on February 27 and was ready for use on February 29. The same dates apply to Supplement Number 5.
Supplement Number 3 came to the Translation Division on February 26, and with an intervening weekend, was ready for use on March 3. These dates apparently exculpate the Translation Division from any undue delay especially when regard is had for the fact when they are translating documents for other trials. Tribunal 1 and Tribunal 3 and even some documents for Case Number 4. Apparently no blame is to be attached to them for the delay. I presume part of the purported delay comes from the fact that all cf these documents have to go first to the Defense Information Center and then to the Document Room where they are translated and mimeographed; then back to the Translation Division where an English translation is prepared. That, again, goes to the document distribution center where the translation is mimeographed. Then the translations are distributed. It is a long way. The delay may occur anywhere in that journey. It is a complicated process made necessary by reason of the use of two languages and may be, at least in part, unavoidable.
The Court has thought proper to put these facts on the record to prevent any blame being attached where it should not be place.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I would like to introduce now Document Book Number 3, I have given you copies which I received. I would like to introduce in evidence Exhibit Number 40. It is an affidavit, Kaethe Herbst, of 21 1406 a January 1947 with four enclosures.
May it please Your Honors, before I start, I would like to inform you, concerning the two Russian officers, that it has been a difficult matter. To clarify that matter, we have very little new. However, this is the result of a great and complicated work. To clarify that, what so far was unknown, I would like to read this affidavit now.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the Exhibit Number?
DR. BERGOLD: Exhibit Number 40, Your Honor. It is right in the index, Your Honor. It is page 1 of Document Book 3 of the Defense, Your Honor.
"I, Fraulein Kaethe Herbst, born 23 April 1924, in Nurnberg, Lieestrasse 23, have been informed that I render myself liable to punishment if I make a false statement in my affidavit. I declare under oath that my deposition is true and was made to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. II in the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany.
"Firstly, I have been secretary of attorney Dr. Friedrich Bergold since the beginning of the trial in his capacity as defense counsel in the proceedings against Erhard Milch.
"Secondly, on 8 January 1947, Dr. Bergold addressed the following letter to the German News Agency (DENA):
"'As attorney of Herr Erhard Milch, I beg you to issue, if possible by broadcasting, the following request for information:
"'The attorney of the former Field Marshal Erhard Milch requests these persons who are in a position to give information on the following occurrence to communicate with Dr. Friedrich Bergold, attorney, Palace of Justice, Nurnberg:
"'Around the middle of February 1944, two prisoners of war are supposed to have tried to escape by aeroplane which they seized at some factory or airfield. Where did this incident take place and what is the fate of the two prisoners of war?'
"Thirdly, the representative of DENA informed Dr. Bergold in my presence that he had forwarded this letter to the head office of DENA at Bad Nauheim to be attended to there.
"Fourthly, a few days later Dr. Bergold received the following information in reply to the request as given under cipher 2, the originals of which are attached to this affidavit:
A "a) Letter of 10 January 1947 from Herr Erich Schmidtke, Kassel-Waldau, Alte Nuernbergerstrasse.
"b) Letter of 13 January 1947, from Herr Karl W. Gangolf, Ruesselheim on Main.
B "a) Letter of 12 January 1947 from Herr Hans Winterstein, Frankfurt on Main, Leerbachstrasse 97.
"b) Letter without date from Herr Adolf Janko, Hachtel 63, (14a) District Mergentheim.
"5) I certify that to the best of my knowledge, no other information concerning the flight of prisoners of war with the help of an aeroplane have not reached attorney Dr. Bergold.
"Dr. Bergold subsequently made further inquiries based on the letters as under 4)b with regard to the incident at the Messerschmitt works in Regensburg-Obertraubling.
"(signed) Kaethe Herbst "This is to certify the correctness of the above signature of Fraulein Kaethe Herbst, Nuernberg, Kleestrasse 23, made in the presence of attorney Dr. Friedrich Bergold.
"Nuernberg, 31 January 1947 "(Signed) Dr. Bergold" The attachment signed, 1st Letter, Erich Schmidtke, Kassel-Walday, Alte Nuernbergerstrasse on the 10th of January 1947:
"Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Attorney, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.
"In answer to the enclosed press notification published in the Kasseler-Zeitung of January 10th, 1947, I can inform you that the incident in question occurred on the airfield of Prenzlau, Uckermark."
"Uckermark" means UK.
"With regard to the fate of the prisoners, I regret not to be able to give you any information.
"I was myself commander of a labor detachment at that time. This incident, owing to its rather peculiar nature, was much discussed.
"In case it should be of interest to you, I would communicate with some of my former comrades and ask them for information.
"Yours truly "(Signed) Erich Schmidtke "(2nd letter) "Karl W. Gangolf, Ruesselheim on Main, 13 January 1947.
"Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.
"I read a notice in the Frankfurter Neuen Presse on 10 January 1947, in which you ask for information concerning the "Escape of two prisoners of war by aeroplane". About this I would like to give you the following information:
"In the year 1944 two foreign prisoners of war used an aeroplane on the airfield of Prenzlau-Uckermark to make good their escape. On this airfield the pilot school A 12 was stationed. I do not remember whether the flight took place in February or in Autumn, 1944. I still remember the following concerning the incident: the two prisoners of war were wearing the uniform of the German Luftwaffe, of the rank of master sergeant, and are said to have stayed at the air base for several days making themselves acquainted with many installations. It was remarked that they were wearing their hair rather long and that only one of the two entered into conversation. Nobody ever heard the other talk. The aeroplane used was a Bucker 181 which was rolled to the fuel station by a student pilot. Fueling completed, the one in the uniform of a master sergeant requested the student pilot to get out as he had to make a test flight. The two prisoners then boarded the plane and flew off. Nothing more was heard with regard to the fate of the two. This incident was discussed with great interest and we figured out at the time that with the quantity of fuel they had with them, they could only fly from Prenalau to Sweden.
"Perhaps this information is of value to you.
"Yours truly "(Signed) Gangolf "(3rd Letter) "Hans Winterstein, Frankfurt on Main, 12 January 1947, Leerbachstrasse 97.
"Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Attorney, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.
"Dear Dr. Bergold, "In the "Frankfurter Neue Presse" I read today the article "Who can give information?"
I think I am in the position to give you at least some information, namely:
"During the time from January to March, 1944, I was stationed as noncommissioned officer of a railway anti-aircraft unit for the protection of the Messerschmitte works at Regensburg-Obertraublingen directly on the outskirts of the airfield belonging to the works. There it happened in the middle of February, 1944, that without starting signal an Me 109 took off suddenly, and, unfortunately, somewhat too steeply, with the result that it dropped again and had to make a crash landing. It was found that two fugitive Russian prisoners of war with officer's rank were in the machine and still alive. Since the Me 109 is only a one man fighter, the other naturally had to hide in an uncomfortable position in the hull. Concerning the further fate of the two Russians after they were taken away, I regret not to be able to give any further details. Anyhow, it was said that they were kept imprisoned and were not allowed to work freely anymore. I myself talked, although it was forbidden, to some prisoners -- they were working on the landing field there -- who told me the same of their comrades. Moreover, these people gave one the impression of being quite satisfied. At the most of the working places these prisoners are left unguarded, which alone made the attempt to escape possible.
"I hope this information will be of service to you. If necessary, I would have to inquire from my war comrades who perhaps will know more about the above incident.
"I am glad to be of assistance to you.
"Yours truly "(Signed) Hans Winterstein "(4th Letter) "Adolf Janko, Hachtal 63, (14a) District Mergentheim.
"Dr. Bergold, Attorney, Nuernberg.
"In answer to your inquiry I can give you the following information:
"The two prisoners of war were Russian officers who tried to escape with a new Me 109 ready for delivery from the air base Oberttaubling near Regensburg. They had a mishap when starting; the machine was totally wrecked while the two wore unhurt. They were shot a few days later on the target range of the air base by a Police Unit.
"(Signed) Janko Adolf" After I found out those things, namely, that the incident which was taken from the records of the 16th of February of the Central Planning Board and which had been mentioned by Milch, could only have been the incident in Obertraubling because the other incident, the one in Prenzlau, at the air-field, Prenzlau, could not have been considered.
It couldn't have been that one because the Russian prisoners escaped with the plane, and they escaped to Sweden.
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't say that they escaped to Sweden.
DR BERGOLD: Well, they were never seen again.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, It merely says that they had enough gasoline to have gotten -
DR BERGOLD: Yes, indeed -
THE PRESIDENT: -- to Sweden.
DR. BERGOLD: -- Your Honor. This could only have been the incident of Obertraubling because the two Russian prisoners before the two there were officers which then were shot.
MR. DENNEY: I assume, too, Your Honor, that the plane was not known to be going to Sweden, and that they could have gone just as far in any other direction as they could have gone if they were going to Sweden.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Sweden is just used as a measure of distance.
MR DENNEY: Yes.
DR BERGOLD: Do not forget that Milch declared that the two prisoners of war, the Russian prisoners of war, had attempted to escape and that the plane had immediately crashed. That is exactly what it says in the records.
of the 16th of February. That particular plane from Prenzlau did not crash, at least not in Prenzlau, whereas in the record of the 16th of February it says that they immediately crashed.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we understand your point.
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to submit now the next exhibit number 41, an affidavit of Hubert Klein of 28 January 1947 which is on page 6, Your Honors. It reads as fellows:
"I, Hubert Klein, born 11 January 1890 in Duesseldorf, temporary address Internment Camp, Regensburg, have been informed that I render myself liable to punishment if I make a false statement in my affidavit. I declare on oath that my deposition is true and was made to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. II in the Palace of Justice, Nuernberg, Germany.
"In 1944 I was an employee of the firm Messerschmitt. In the middle of February 1944 two Russian officers tried to escape with a Me 109 which was ready for delivery. When starting, the machine rolled over and was totally wrecked. The exact date I do not know. As far as I remember, the fugitives were handed over to the Stapo (State Police) by the camp guard. According to information from Stalag officers" -- Stalag is prisoner of war camp -- "(Stalag Main Camp for PW's) an order existed already that the flight of officers from prisoner-of-war camps must be reported to the Fuehrer. This report was undoubtedly made. About two to three days later the fugitives were shot by the Police in Obertraublingen. They were brought back from Regensburg to Obertraubling to be shot there. I believe that the order to shoot them was given by the Fuehrer. It was generally assumed at the time from the behavior of the Russian officers that it was an act of sabotage.
"(Signed) Hubert Klein "This is to certify the correctness of the above signature of Herr Hubert Klein, Regensburg, internment and labor camp, made in the presence of the chief of the camp and of Dr. Warner Milch.
Internment and labor Camp Regensburg, 28 January 1947. "(Signed) Chief of the Camp" and furthermore:
"Dr. Werner Milch, Internment and Labor Camp, Regensburg."
The following affidavit is No. 42, and affidavit of Fritz Hans Adolf Popp, of 15 February 1947. It reads as follows:
"I, Fritz Hans Adolf Popp, born in Nurnberg, on 30 June 1882, at present in a special camp Dachau, cage 2, have been informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement under oath. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before Military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.
"From April 1939 I was the head of the police directorate Regensburg and since 1944 the head of the secret Police H.Q. in Regensburg.
"About February 1944 2 Russian officers employed by the firm Messerschmitt Obertraubling, attempted to escape in an Me 109. Shortly after taking off the plane crashed. Both passengers were still alive.
"According to the existing regulations the escape had to be reported to the Reich Main Security Office and to the Reich Defense Commissioner. At this time the escape of officers had in addition probably to be reported through the OKW.
"The handling of this case was not in my hands. Therefore I can no longer state the correct date. I only recall that the order for the execution by shooting was given by the Fueher.
"From my knowledge of the channels of command and rank I consider it impossible that the order for the execution by shooting was given by an officer of the Luftwaffe. Neither my department nor the prisoner of war camps (Stalags) were subordinated to the Luftwaffe. Signed: Fritz Popp.
"Herewith we certify and testify to the correctness of the above signature of Fritz Hans Adolf Popp at present in the special camp in Dachau, made by the undersigned.
Dachau, 15 February 1947 Signed:
Dr Werner Milch Assistant defense counsel at the Military Tribunal No. II Signed:
Dr Joseph Weisgerber Defense counsel at the Military Tribunal No. 1 Exhibit No. 43, an affidavit of Adolf Berthelmess of the 28th of January 1947, on page 8 of your Honors' book.
It reads as follows:
"I, Adolf Barthelmess, born in Nurnberg on 24 October 1894, address Nurnberg, have been informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement under oath. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before the Military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.
"From January 1941 until the end of the war I was active as officer and expert to the commander of the prisoners of war within the Army Corps Area XIII. From my knowledge acquired there I can give the following testimony:
1.) Without having worked on the case myself, I remember the escape in a place from the plant airfield of the firm Messerschmitt attempted by 2 Russian officers very well, because this case was discussed in detail in the office on account of the peculiarity of its execution and the manner in which it was carried out.
2.) According to my memory in spring 1944 - with a proviso- it may have been in the middle of the month February, the company chief of the home guard company (Landesschuetzen Kompanie) reported to the commander of the prisoners of war, by phone, as it was ordered, that on the day of the phone call 2 Russian officers had attempted to escape from a working detail at the Messerschmitt plants in a plane of the ME 109 type which was ready to take off. The plane had rolled a couple of hundred meters, could not take off and was then stopped by a ridge, turned over and both prisoners of war had been thrown out, one had been injured slightly, the other more severely. The prisoners of war had been picked up and were in the hands of the police. The escape was made possible by the carelessness cf auxiliary guards and the plant policemen.
"This report was probably received by the commander of the prisoners of war a few hours after the incident had taken place.
3.) As ordered, the report was handed on to the OKW Chief of prisoners of war in the usual manner by teletype, as this had to be done by teletype in all cases of escapes of officers who were prisoners of war in order to be submitted to the Fuehrer; this was ordered by the OKW chief for the prisoners of war.
4.) The prisoners of war were in the hands of the police, as according to an order given in 1942, Russian prisoners of wan recaptured after an attempt to escape remained with the police for interrogation, and the police alone was competent to decide whether perhaps the prisoners had to be handed back to the Wehrmacht.
5.) Even before the OKW had received the teletype, a phone call came through from there and a report was requested to be submitted to the Fuehrer as quickly as possible. Therefore the Fuehrer's Headquarters or Hitler himself learned about the attempt to escape from another source already prior to the teletype, because the latter already requested information from the OKW. Therefore it was reported either through party channels, through Gau leadership-Reich leadership (Bormann), or through the police channel, through Secret State Police Reich Main Security Office. The fact that Gauleiter Waschtler in his capacity as Reich Defense Commissioner required information about the case very early by phone, suggests the first way. A written report was requested as quickly as possible through the official channel and was submitted to the OKW.
I would like to make a remark here that the affidavit by Fritz Popp already testified to the fact that such an escape, the report of an escape, had to go through the Reich Main Security Office and to the Reich Defense Commissioner and escape of officers reported through the OKW: and that in this affidavit the fact that Gauleiter Waschtler of the Defense Commissioner required such information.
I shall continue:
6.) A few days later the commander for the prisoners of war was informed by the competent camp commander that the police intended to shoot both prisoners of war in public. The commander, Major General Anger made his protest against that by phone to the OKW, chief of prisoners of war, and received either immediately or through a phone call from there the reply that Hitler was very much interested in this case and had himself decided and had given the respective order.
Furthermore the incident was the affair of the police in the hands of whom the prisoners of war were and which also had to carry out the order.
1416-a "7.) My answer to the question, whether in my opinion an office of the Luftwaffe could have given the order for the shooting of the prisoners of war, is in the negative.
It is based on my knowledge of the usual channels of command, because I consider it unlikely that the police or Secret State Police would have complied with an order given by a department to which they were not subordinate, neither our office, nor the Stalags, nor the Police were subordinated to the Luftwaffe. Signed: Adolf Barthelmess.
"The above signature, made by Adolf Barthelmess, address Nurnberg, Theatergasse 13, before the attorney at law Dr. Freidrich Bergold is herewith certified as being correct. Nurnberg, 28 January 1947. Signature. Friedrich Bergold."
Before I introduce Exhibit No. 44 I would like to submit this addition to Exhibit No. 36. This is an addition which I have here in order to show the logical connection. This is an affidavit of Kurt Linde. I should like to read it now:
"I, Kurt Linde, born 25 October 1395 at Gellnow, Pommeramia, formerly major general, now in the hospital for PW's, Garmisch, have been told that it is an offense to make wrong statements on oath. I hereby declare on oath that my statement corresponds to the truth and has been made in order to be offered to Military Tribunal in Nurnberg as evidence.
Since 1 February 1944 I was deputy chief of the Allgemeine Wehrmachtsamt in the OKW. The chief of the department for PWs was part of that office.
"When I took over my office mass escapes were an almost daily occurrence. Nevertheless I still recall the peculiar circumstances of the escape in an aircraft, of Russian officers early in 1914. This unique incident has particularly stuck in my memory. I also seem to recall that the aircraft crashed, shortly after taking off.
This was reported to the Fuehrer probably both via Bormann as Reich Defense Commissioner as well as through our channels to the Head of OKW. I think it out of the question that the ten Field Marshal Milch was instrumental in obtaining the Fuehrer order to have the Russians shot. Of course, I think there can be no doubt that the Reich Minister of Aviation and C-in-C of the Luftwaffe was informed of the incident, i.e., of the loss of the aircraft, but I know nothing of an intervention on the part of the Luftwaffe, or of Field Marshal Milch in particular. I think Milch's playing any part in the treatments of the recaptured prisoners would have been impossible as this would have amounted to his interferring in matters outside his command, against which the competent authorities would have protested, and I would certainly remember if so unusual an action had taken place. Signed: Kurt Linde, Major General.
"The above signature of Kurt Linde, at present PWs hospital Garmisch, was given in the presence of Dr. Werner Milch and is hereby certified by me. Garmisch, 23 February 1947, Signed: Dr. Werner Milch."
Exhibit No. 44 is an affidavit of Fritz Prell, of 4 February 1947. It reads as follows:
S March-DJG-A-16-1-Kupperstein (Int. Simha) "I, Fritz Prell, secretary of the criminal police at the search department in Regensburg, residing in Regensburg, Waldmuenschenerstr.
94, have been informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before the military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg, German.
"The shooting of 2 Russians in Obertraubling took place on a Saturday afternoon, I am sure that it was a Saturday afternoon, because I was on duty at the police directorate on the afternoon concerned.
"The shooting took place about 14 days before the 2 major airraids on the plant Obertraubling of the firm Messerschmitt. These raids were on 22 and 25 February 1941. Therefore the shooting probably took place on 12 February 1944, because this day was a Saturday." "Regensburg, 4 February 1947." "Signature: Fritz Prell."
"Document R. No. 210."
"I certify to the correctness of the above signature of the secretary of the criminal police in Regensburg, Horr Fritz Prell, alte Waldmuenchenerstr, 94, who identified himself by his identification card issued on 15 September 1946 B 00099." "Regensburg 4 February 1947, Dr. Luther." "(Stamp) Dr. Heinz Luther, Notary in Regensburg." Then came the expenses. That is what I have to show in connection with those two officers. I shall give my deduction later on.
As the last affidavit today, I would like to submit Exhibit No 45, an affidavit of Dr. Falter von Mueller, the 1st of February, 1947:
"I, Walter von Mueller, born in Berlin - Wilmersdorf on 13 October 1900 residing in Bennigsen am Diester, near Hannover, was at first informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement.