EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did the Laftwaffe provide its own plant protection against air raids.
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A Yes, in some cases.
Q Well, that is, the batteries which were around the factories were manned by the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, and there were batteries which only indicated an actual alert which were assembled. That was so particularly with night batteries which were near the works, and there were also heavy batteries which only, in cases of alerts, were manned at night; that is to say, that the crow was not purely soldiers.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:
Q But in the German Amy the flak artillery is part of the Luftwaffe, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Now, you said that you saw some Russians manning ack-ack batteries up north of Berlin some place, yesterday to Dr. Bergold. Where was it that you saw those men on the ack-ack- battery?
A I saw them for the first time, when I was commander-in-chief of Luftgau 7, and the anti-aircraft batteries of the whole of the Luftgau were under my command. On that occasion I saw the Russian auxiliaries in the batteries.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Luftgau 7 was near Munich?
A Yes, Munich, Nurnberg, Augsburg, Innsbruck, Berchtesgaden, and Salzburg.
Q Were air-raids directed at that Gau by Russian planes?
A No.
Q What kind of planes were they?
A The British at nighty the Americans in the daytime.
Q But never any Russian planes?
A No, never.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:
Q In March 1943 Milch went to see Hitler and told him the truth about Stalingrad, what a terrible show that had been over there. Were you with them?
A No, he told me when he returned from the headquarters.
Q He got permission from Goering to go?
A He had a direct order from Hitler at the time when he went to Stalingrad; and therefore he had to report to Hitler. That was after he had fulfilled the order; and on that occasion he vented his feelings.
Q If Hitler ordered him to come and see him, he could go and see Hitler without seeing Goering, couldn't he?
A Yes, on that occasion, certainly.
Q He felt that the war was lost then, did he?
A If the war would be led in that way, yes.
Q So he really didn't get along very well with Hitler?
A I don't quite see how I can understand this question. Do you mean because he told him the truth or before this interview?
Q Well, from then on, from March 1943, he didn't get along very well with Hitler if he went and told him.
A Well, the relations to Hitler certainly worsened.
Q Well, he just told Hitler that he didn't think the boys were doing very well over on the Eastern Front, didn't he?
A Yes.
Q He had opposed the Eastern Front campaign, which started roughly in June 1941, from the beginning, didn't he?
A Yes.
Q He used to make remarks about Hitler in meetings and have them taken out of the minutes?
A Yes.
Q And he told you that he didn't like the way Hitler dealt with prisoners of war?
A Yes. When the two Russians had been sent to Obertraubling he told me about that, as I said before.
Q So he wasn't getting along too well with the Little Corporal about now, was he?
A No.
Q You say that his policies and Goering's differed basically?
A Yes.
Q So far as the General Luftwaffe program was concerned?
A Yes; also in other respects, politically, for instance.
Q You mean Goering was a strong Party man?
A Field Marshal Milch did not agree with the general policy of Hitler's.
Q Well, then when did this disagreement between Goering and Milch start?
A When it began is very difficult to say because the relations there were not particularly good. But this eternal struggle of Milch to get the defensive power of the Luftwaffe increased and the fact that Goering did not see eye to eye with that made relations worse and worse because Goering became aware that Milch wished the air armament to be done in a different way from his own conception.
Q So far as you know, Milch was a Field Marshal up until the capitulation, wasn't he?
A Yes. It is customary in Germany that you remain a Field Marshal through your lifetime. You cannot be demoted.
Q Sure, and you don't know of his ever having been arrested, do you, like Goering?
A No, all I heard was that it was intended to arrest him.
Q It was intended to arrest him?
A Yes.
Q has he ever a member of the July 20, 1944, Putsch group?
A Not that I know of.
Q He wasn't like Witzleben and some of the rest of them, was he?
A I only heard in the hospital in Wildbad of this Putsch over the radio on the same day; and I knew nothing of it in advance.
Q You said that he tried repeatedly to get peace with France. When did these efforts start?
A I said yesterday that when I met Milch for the first time I became acquainted with the efforts of the then General Milch. That was in 1937, in March, at the end of the tour of inspection, which I made as an applicant for the General Staff.
Q Well, did he make any efforts for peace with France after the war had started?
A That happened after the beginning of the war, yes; but I don't quite know what year it was. He once more suggested it. It may have been in 1941 or perhaps as late as 1943.
Q This is the peace with France that you are talking about?
A Yes. After all, there was no peace; it was only an armistice with France. His aim was to have a real peace with France.
Q Then you say that he also tried to get Ribbentrop dismissed?
A Yes. He told me this after his talk with Hitler in 1943 about Stalingrad. He told me that he had proposed not only to get rid of Keitel but also of Ribbentrop and that about the whole line of foreign police, it was high time to abandon the old line of foreign policy and make peace because militarily the war could not be won.
Even if one confined oneself to the defense of one's own land, the only possibility was, by switching over to a defense, one could show the enemy that he could not penetrate into Germany, and therefore he would be more inclined to make peace.
Q And Keitel at that time was Field Marshal, was he not?
A Yes.
Q He was head of OKW, wasn't he, under Hitler?
A Yes, indeed.
Q As a matter of fact, there wasn't anybody higher in the German Wehrmacht than Keitel, was there?
A The position of the OKW is a difficult one. The OKW did not have an immediate power of command to the various branches of the Wehrmacht. The branches of the Wehrmacht were immediately under Hitler. Therefore Keitel, knowing that, gave orders on behalf of the Fuehrer. He issued orders of a. general nature. There was also a supreme General Staff above all these branches of the Wehrmacht. The OKW was more concerned with problems common to all three branches of the Wehrmacht, such as prisoners of war, managing questions of leave, the financial matters, legal proceedings; and this branch of the Wehrmacht after all had its own channel of thought.
Q At any rate, Milch wanted Hitler to get rid of Keitel?
A Yes, because in his opinion he was a man who always said "Yes", and had no opinion of his own.
Q Now, he was invited to go to Campiegne; but he declined?
A Yes, he told me that sometime ago.
Q He told you that before the war was over, didn't he?
A Oh, yes. Since August 1944 we didn't talk to each other.
Q You weren't "mad" at him, were you?
A Oh, no, not at all.
Q Now, you said that he had a lot of signatures to sign every day. How many times did you say he had to write his name?
A I personally know that I had to write my own name five hundred or six hundred times a day; and the Field Marshal certainly would not have to sign less. If anything, he would have to sign more.
Q What were all these signatures about? Do you know?
A They were letters which went to the General Staff; letters from the aircraft industry; replies to letters from offices of the armament ministry; orders to take trips. For instance, I had to sign all of the travel orders of all members of the aircraft industry who wanted to go abroad. They all had to have a voucher; and I had to sign that voucher.
Q You say you also took papers home at night to sign?
A Yes. I know that Field Marshal Milch usually took two, one or two suitcases home with him in the evening. I saw myself that his chauffeur had these suitcases during the evening; and he brought them back in the morning because in the morning one usually waited for him in his ante-chamber to tell him what had happened during the night.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, if you were in your office ten hours every day, and you signed six hundred papers, that means one every minute for the entire day without any time for lunch or anything else.
A These signatures I only gave usually in the evening when the conferences were over.
THE PRESIDENT: Speaking of lunch, we will adjourn.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 11 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Did you ever inspect a plant near Melk, Austria? The plant that was in or near a place called St. Georgen?
A. No.
Q. You did not know anything about that?
A. No, I don't. I know of visiting on aircraft factory near there; maybe the factory is in Wiener Neustadt, that is, the Steyr-Works.
Q. You mean by Neustadt, that was one of the places where they had Russians manning the anti-aircraft guns, was it not?
A. I don't know that because the flak was not under my command later.
Q. Did they ever have any meetings in the General Luftzeugmeister?
A. Yes, they were, of course, twice a week. On Tuesday and on Friday. On Tuesday it was the supply meeting, and on Friday, the development meeting.
Q. How many people used to attend them?
A. At the beginning there were very few, but later on they were quite a few, approximately forty to fifty people on on average.
Q. How many trips did you make to Hungary?
A. Three.
Q. And when were they?
A. 1942 and 1943.
Q. You never went there in 1944?
A. No.
Q. Did you go to the Central Planning Board meetings, ever?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever see the results of the meetings?
A. No, I did not.
Q Did you know anything about what went on there?
A Yes, I did. Yes, the raw materials were distributed. The orders were distributed there according to the Hitler order for the program of the Wehrmacht branches.
1680 a
Q. You never know anything about a report of a meeting on 22 July 1942 which said that Gen. Reimecke and Fieldmarshall Milch would undertake the accelerating of the procurement of Russian prisoners of War in the camp?
A. No, I can not remember that.
Q. Well you said that Hitler had ordered that no French should be used in the Alsace?
A. Yes, and no Frenchmen were used. After the order came from Hitler I don't know. However, the Frenchmen were not used. Apart from the Russians, no enemy nationals wore used.
Q. You never had any other kind of employees other than Russian and French and Germans?
A. Employees? What kind of employees? Employed by whom do you mean?
Q. By the Luftwaffe, working in their plant.
A. I did not see any more other them the Russians and the French.
Q. That is all you knew about?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you made about sixty trips to various factories over the period from 1941 to 1944?
A. Yes, but a great larger part of the trips only dealt with the development furnished. In those development factories only Germans were employed.
Q. You spoke about prisoners of war being released on the basis of being recalled. What do you mean by that?
A. Well, that was a case where the French, or Frenchmen according to their agreement with time French Government of Vichy had released or had to be released until further notice. In other words, in case there should be certain existence of foreign policy, then they could be recalled. The same also opplies to Dutchmen and Belgians.
Q. What were you going to do with the Dutch and Belgians when you got them back?
A. The Dutch and the Belgians, all we wanted to say was that they were being released also until further notice from captivity.
1681 A
Q They were releasing them until further notice, and then the time would come when they re-arrested them?
A No, the Dutch and the Belgiums worked in their own country.
Q Whom did they work for?
A I did not know that in detail. So far as I know they were long in their own factories in Belgium and Holland. I know that some of them worked in the firm Fokker, and where they manufactured the Dornier-24 down there.
Q The Dornier-2d, that was a Luftwaffe plane, wasn't it?
A That was a plane which would rescue pilots who fell into the water. In other words, Germans or Americans or British. In other words, it was a sea plane.
Q You wore not making it for the Lufthansa, were you? You were making it for the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, but that in itself it was not armed, it was not a war plane, it was just a sea-rescue plane.
Q Did you know anything about people who told the French prisoners of war they were going to work in baby carriage factories?
A No.
Q Did you know anything about people who told the French prisoners of war that they were going to work in baby carriage factories?
A No.
Q You never heard of a Luftwaffe factory referred to as a baby carriage factory?
A No.
Q How about Milch and Himmler? Did you ever see them together?
A No, I did not.
Q You never heard Milch say anything about he was going to have recourse to Himmler and some of the people under him to take care of some of these workers?
A No. I know only that Field Marshal Milch once told me that he had also spoken to Himmler in order to get through with his defense program and that Himmler himself was also interested in that in order to make certain arrangements with the Fuehrer on that program.
Q That is the defensive war as opposed to offensive war?
A Yes.
Q You never heard Milch say anything to anybody to speak to Reinecke and ensure that French prisoners of war who did not work would be shot?
A No.
Q You knew who Reinecke was?
A No, I don't.
Q You never heard of General Reinecke?
A No, I haven't.
Q Who was in charge of the prisoners of war for the OKW?
A Well, now I do remember him, yes, but I could not recall the name.
Q You remember him now, though.
A Yes.
Q You never heard Milch say anything about sending French civilians and prisoners of war to Germany to do work?
A No. That in itself would have been in contradiction with our whole program, because we had an agreement with France concerning the production of planes and engines. These factories, after difficulties which they had at the beginning, worked very well toward the end. For instance, the Junkers, or U-52, was manufactured there, and in Germany we did not manufacture any more Junker 52's. They were manufactured only in France and Hungary.
Q Did you know that concentration camp inmates were working in the munitions plants?
A No, I didn't, and I never visited ammunition factories because the ammunition manufacture, with the exception of those that I mentioned before, those secret plane ammunitions, was not under our command and order, but some of it was dealt with by the army itself.
Q And you never heard Milch say anything about concentration camp inmates being used in ammunition plants?
A No.
Q And did you know that Italian prisoners of war were being used in ammunition plants?
A No.
Q You never heard Milch say anything about that?
A No.
Q Did you ever hear Milch say anything about the billeting conditions of these foreign laborers, or any kind of laborers who were working at the factories, aircraft factories?
A Yes, he saw to it that the billeting should be better because at the beginning we had difficulties, and also insofar as clothes were concerned.
Q All the orders he gave were to improve conditions?
A Yes, indeed.
Q You said that -- By the way, are you a pilot?
A Yes, I am.
Q How many hours have you had in the air?
A
A. I have the military pilot's permit. For that it was necessary to have approximately 200 to 300 hours of flying time.
Q. When did you qualify as a pilot?
A. In 1940.
Q. Did you ever--
A. That was the last time. I started in 1938.
Q. 1938. Did you ever use an oxygen mask?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Well, how high have you flown in planes that you piloted yourself?
A. Up to 4500 meters.
Q. You never went any higher than that?
A. When I was piloting myself, no.
Q. Did you ever go up higher then that in a plane that somebody else was piloting?
A. Yes, I have during the war. I made several flights, and I went as high as 6,000 meters. That is when we used an oxygen mask.
Q. You went under oxygen about when?
A. From 5,000 meters on.
Q. 5000 meters without going into oxygen?
A. Yes. People reacted differently. Some of them needed some, but some did not. I always used on oxygen mask after 5,000 meters.
Q. That was part of your training as a student pilot, was it not?
A. Yes. Well, I already mentioned that as a pilot I went up to only 4,500 meters, and those were the conditions and terms for altitude flights that were necessary for the pilot's license.
Q. But when you were studying they told you that there would come a time when you would pass into an altitude when you would need to put on the oxygen mask?
A. Yes. In these planes which we used for schooling purposes, we did not have any oxygen masks.
Q. But you know when you were a student pilot that when you got up over 5,000 meters you would have to go on oxygen.
A. Up to 4,500 I did not fool anything. Up to 4,500 meters everything went fine.
Q. Beyond that you had to go into oxygen?
A. Yes, that is the way I did it.
Q. Now, you said Milch turned down a gift of 50,000 Reichsmarks from the aircraft industry?
A. Yes, by Admiral Laas. He was the president of the Union of German Air Industry, and in the name of the air industry he wanted to present him with a gift of 50,000 Marks, which Milch, as he told me himself, refused. Admiral Laas confirmed that later on to me.
Q. That was his 50th birthday, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know of any other sum of money which was given to him on his 50th birthday?
A. If it was for his birthday I do not know, but I know that he got a gift, a bonus, from Hitler.
Q. What was the bonus he got from Hitler?
A. That was a certain amount of money, I believe that it amounted to 250,000 Marks, and he told me himself that he considered that the difference between his former higher wages as director of the Lufthansa and what he was making as a general.
Q. And this was in 1945, was it?
A. I can not tell you the exact date, but I believe it must have been around 1943.
Q. He got 250,000 Reichsmarks from Hitler?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever inspect underground factories?
A. What do you mean "underground"?
Q. Factories that were not on top of the ground.
A. Yes, I did, right here near Fuerth, near Nurnberg. There was a factory, Wachmann and Blumental, a repair shop for planes.
Q. When did they build that?
A. The factory had already existed during peacetime, and then it was changed, reconverted. First it was a wagon factory, and then it was reconverted into a repair shop for Messerschmitt planes. These underground factories were brewery cellars, in which the entire mechanical factories were situated.
Q. Did you ever inspect any other underground factory?
A. Yes, I believe that in the Harz there was also a factory there which we saw. That was in a cave.
Q. Would you mind spelling that for me?
A. I can not remember the name exactly. I believe it was near Ernstedt.
Q. Where is Ernstedt? In Germany?
A. Yes, in Germany, on the Harz. That is a small group of mountains south of Braunsehweig.
Q. You knew what the Protectorate was, didn't you, when anybody referred to that?
A. I did not quite understand the question.
Q. If some one used the term, "the Protectorate", you knew what they were talking about?
A. "Protectorate"? Yes, that was Bohemia and Moravia.
Q. You said that you discussed these altitude experiments with Milch, and you agreed that there should be no activity carried on above what height?
A. We had agreed at the time that we would not carry on experiments over 14,000 meters, because we doubted that planes would never attain such a height with manned aeroplanes during the war.
Q. And when was it that you had the discussion?
Q When was that, that you had that discussion?
A I cannot tell you that exactly, but it was probably in 1942 when the high altitude development question was being discussed.
Q And what happened after that?
A The research offices, the research departments were informed of our wish. During those development conferences and meetings there was always a representative of the research council or Reichsmarshal was present, who would give necessary instructions to his institute what wish had been expressed by the Luftwaffe in matters of research.
Q Did you ever talk to Milch about sea rescues?
A The sea-rescue planes, yes. We discussed those as well because they were also in our manufacturing field, and after all the various planes we used did not succeed in helping us. We finally developed the Dornier plane, 24, which turned out to be a very good sea-rescue plane, and later on we did not have any further complaints with those planes so that the sea-rescue service did not object to it, and the number of planes built also corresponded with the number required, or requested.
Q When was that that you discussed the sea rescue?
A That occurred during various G. L. meetings we had. It was no special meeting. It was one of the points of the program which was discussed once in a while and was in the daily order.
Q Now, I asked you once before if you knew Dr. Benzinger?
A Yes, I knew him from Rechlin, yes.
Q So you did know him.
A Yes.
Q Do you recall being there, and don't you recall seeing a movie with him in September, 1942?
A No, I don't.
Q If Dr. Benzinger said you were there he is mistaken?
A That cannot be possible. I never saw Dr. Benzinger in Berlin but only in Rechlin two or three times. That is when I met him in the evening, that is all.
Q In conjunction with these directives that you gave for the aviation experiments, did they carry out their experiments in accordance with the expressed wishes which were made by you?
A In Rechlin, you mean?
Q The altitude experiments.
A The altitude experiments took place in part also in Rechlin. I said before that in Rechlin was the main testing group of the Luftwaffe, and all the planes were tested there which were being delivered by the industry. Whatever was still in development state was not under the F. L., and I never visited the research factory of the Luftwaffe.
Q Well, but you said that you and Milch agreed that 14,000 meters was high enough altitude to go into in these experiments.
A Yes. We regarded that as a line, borderline, so that the experiments wouldn't go too far but would only have to attain a certain aim, and it was always planned that way.
Q And so far as you know they complied with your wishes in that regard?
A Yes.
Q You spoke about this meeting with Himmler over defense. Do you remember when that took place?
A No, I don't, but I believe it was in 1943. The Field Marshal told me that., He told me that he had availed himself of the opportunity, he had met Himmler in the headquarters to get, also to win him for the defense program of the Luftwaffe, in other words, to have him see his point.
Q His point being to fight a defensive war as opposed to an offensive war?
A Yes.
Q This was in 1943?
A Yes. The idea itself was the reenforcement of the defense power. That idea which came from Milch had already been mentioned before. However, in 1943 the matter became of the utmost urgency, for all the heavy night and daylight raids of the Anglo-Americans over Germany had taken place.
Q In 1943 you were out of Africa, weren't you?
A No, I myself was never in Africa.
Q The German army, the Wehrmacht, they weren't in Africa any more in 1943?
A Well, in 1943, no, they weren't there any longer.
Q Of course, you were still in the Low Countries and in France and Norway?
A Greece.
Q But you weren't advancing any place much, were you?
A No.
Q Now, these experiments that had to do with cold water and air sea rescue, was there anything connected with freezing experiments that you knew about?
A I do not know that because I only heard of these experiments in May, 1945, through the press in one of the Munich papers, and then, of course, through my examination by Americans in Dachau itself. That was in September, 1945.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, you have mentioned the fact, you spoke about the sea rescue planes. In one phase, sea rescue planes in the Luftwaffe were a similar institution as the hospital ships in the navy?