A. The Dutch and the Belgians, all we wanted to say was that they were being released also until further notice from captivity.
1681 A
Q They were releasing them until further notice, and then the time would come when they re-arrested them?
A No, the Dutch and the Belgiums worked in their own country.
Q Whom did they work for?
A I did not know that in detail. So far as I know they were long in their own factories in Belgium and Holland. I know that some of them worked in the firm Fokker, and where they manufactured the Dornier-24 down there.
Q The Dornier-2d, that was a Luftwaffe plane, wasn't it?
A That was a plane which would rescue pilots who fell into the water. In other words, Germans or Americans or British. In other words, it was a sea plane.
Q You wore not making it for the Lufthansa, were you? You were making it for the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, but that in itself it was not armed, it was not a war plane, it was just a sea-rescue plane.
Q Did you know anything about people who told the French prisoners of war they were going to work in baby carriage factories?
A No.
Q Did you know anything about people who told the French prisoners of war that they were going to work in baby carriage factories?
A No.
Q You never heard of a Luftwaffe factory referred to as a baby carriage factory?
A No.
Q How about Milch and Himmler? Did you ever see them together?
A No, I did not.
Q You never heard Milch say anything about he was going to have recourse to Himmler and some of the people under him to take care of some of these workers?
A No. I know only that Field Marshal Milch once told me that he had also spoken to Himmler in order to get through with his defense program and that Himmler himself was also interested in that in order to make certain arrangements with the Fuehrer on that program.
Q That is the defensive war as opposed to offensive war?
A Yes.
Q You never heard Milch say anything to anybody to speak to Reinecke and ensure that French prisoners of war who did not work would be shot?
A No.
Q You knew who Reinecke was?
A No, I don't.
Q You never heard of General Reinecke?
A No, I haven't.
Q Who was in charge of the prisoners of war for the OKW?
A Well, now I do remember him, yes, but I could not recall the name.
Q You remember him now, though.
A Yes.
Q You never heard Milch say anything about sending French civilians and prisoners of war to Germany to do work?
A No. That in itself would have been in contradiction with our whole program, because we had an agreement with France concerning the production of planes and engines. These factories, after difficulties which they had at the beginning, worked very well toward the end. For instance, the Junkers, or U-52, was manufactured there, and in Germany we did not manufacture any more Junker 52's. They were manufactured only in France and Hungary.
Q Did you know that concentration camp inmates were working in the munitions plants?
A No, I didn't, and I never visited ammunition factories because the ammunition manufacture, with the exception of those that I mentioned before, those secret plane ammunitions, was not under our command and order, but some of it was dealt with by the army itself.
Q And you never heard Milch say anything about concentration camp inmates being used in ammunition plants?
A No.
Q And did you know that Italian prisoners of war were being used in ammunition plants?
A No.
Q You never heard Milch say anything about that?
A No.
Q Did you ever hear Milch say anything about the billeting conditions of these foreign laborers, or any kind of laborers who were working at the factories, aircraft factories?
A Yes, he saw to it that the billeting should be better because at the beginning we had difficulties, and also insofar as clothes were concerned.
Q All the orders he gave were to improve conditions?
A Yes, indeed.
Q You said that -- By the way, are you a pilot?
A Yes, I am.
Q How many hours have you had in the air?
A
A. I have the military pilot's permit. For that it was necessary to have approximately 200 to 300 hours of flying time.
Q. When did you qualify as a pilot?
A. In 1940.
Q. Did you ever--
A. That was the last time. I started in 1938.
Q. 1938. Did you ever use an oxygen mask?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Well, how high have you flown in planes that you piloted yourself?
A. Up to 4500 meters.
Q. You never went any higher than that?
A. When I was piloting myself, no.
Q. Did you ever go up higher then that in a plane that somebody else was piloting?
A. Yes, I have during the war. I made several flights, and I went as high as 6,000 meters. That is when we used an oxygen mask.
Q. You went under oxygen about when?
A. From 5,000 meters on.
Q. 5000 meters without going into oxygen?
A. Yes. People reacted differently. Some of them needed some, but some did not. I always used on oxygen mask after 5,000 meters.
Q. That was part of your training as a student pilot, was it not?
A. Yes. Well, I already mentioned that as a pilot I went up to only 4,500 meters, and those were the conditions and terms for altitude flights that were necessary for the pilot's license.
Q. But when you were studying they told you that there would come a time when you would pass into an altitude when you would need to put on the oxygen mask?
A. Yes. In these planes which we used for schooling purposes, we did not have any oxygen masks.
Q. But you know when you were a student pilot that when you got up over 5,000 meters you would have to go on oxygen.
A. Up to 4,500 I did not fool anything. Up to 4,500 meters everything went fine.
Q. Beyond that you had to go into oxygen?
A. Yes, that is the way I did it.
Q. Now, you said Milch turned down a gift of 50,000 Reichsmarks from the aircraft industry?
A. Yes, by Admiral Laas. He was the president of the Union of German Air Industry, and in the name of the air industry he wanted to present him with a gift of 50,000 Marks, which Milch, as he told me himself, refused. Admiral Laas confirmed that later on to me.
Q. That was his 50th birthday, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know of any other sum of money which was given to him on his 50th birthday?
A. If it was for his birthday I do not know, but I know that he got a gift, a bonus, from Hitler.
Q. What was the bonus he got from Hitler?
A. That was a certain amount of money, I believe that it amounted to 250,000 Marks, and he told me himself that he considered that the difference between his former higher wages as director of the Lufthansa and what he was making as a general.
Q. And this was in 1945, was it?
A. I can not tell you the exact date, but I believe it must have been around 1943.
Q. He got 250,000 Reichsmarks from Hitler?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever inspect underground factories?
A. What do you mean "underground"?
Q. Factories that were not on top of the ground.
A. Yes, I did, right here near Fuerth, near Nurnberg. There was a factory, Wachmann and Blumental, a repair shop for planes.
Q. When did they build that?
A. The factory had already existed during peacetime, and then it was changed, reconverted. First it was a wagon factory, and then it was reconverted into a repair shop for Messerschmitt planes. These underground factories were brewery cellars, in which the entire mechanical factories were situated.
Q. Did you ever inspect any other underground factory?
A. Yes, I believe that in the Harz there was also a factory there which we saw. That was in a cave.
Q. Would you mind spelling that for me?
A. I can not remember the name exactly. I believe it was near Ernstedt.
Q. Where is Ernstedt? In Germany?
A. Yes, in Germany, on the Harz. That is a small group of mountains south of Braunsehweig.
Q. You knew what the Protectorate was, didn't you, when anybody referred to that?
A. I did not quite understand the question.
Q. If some one used the term, "the Protectorate", you knew what they were talking about?
A. "Protectorate"? Yes, that was Bohemia and Moravia.
Q. You said that you discussed these altitude experiments with Milch, and you agreed that there should be no activity carried on above what height?
A. We had agreed at the time that we would not carry on experiments over 14,000 meters, because we doubted that planes would never attain such a height with manned aeroplanes during the war.
Q. And when was it that you had the discussion?
Q When was that, that you had that discussion?
A I cannot tell you that exactly, but it was probably in 1942 when the high altitude development question was being discussed.
Q And what happened after that?
A The research offices, the research departments were informed of our wish. During those development conferences and meetings there was always a representative of the research council or Reichsmarshal was present, who would give necessary instructions to his institute what wish had been expressed by the Luftwaffe in matters of research.
Q Did you ever talk to Milch about sea rescues?
A The sea-rescue planes, yes. We discussed those as well because they were also in our manufacturing field, and after all the various planes we used did not succeed in helping us. We finally developed the Dornier plane, 24, which turned out to be a very good sea-rescue plane, and later on we did not have any further complaints with those planes so that the sea-rescue service did not object to it, and the number of planes built also corresponded with the number required, or requested.
Q When was that that you discussed the sea rescue?
A That occurred during various G. L. meetings we had. It was no special meeting. It was one of the points of the program which was discussed once in a while and was in the daily order.
Q Now, I asked you once before if you knew Dr. Benzinger?
A Yes, I knew him from Rechlin, yes.
Q So you did know him.
A Yes.
Q Do you recall being there, and don't you recall seeing a movie with him in September, 1942?
A No, I don't.
Q If Dr. Benzinger said you were there he is mistaken?
A That cannot be possible. I never saw Dr. Benzinger in Berlin but only in Rechlin two or three times. That is when I met him in the evening, that is all.
Q In conjunction with these directives that you gave for the aviation experiments, did they carry out their experiments in accordance with the expressed wishes which were made by you?
A In Rechlin, you mean?
Q The altitude experiments.
A The altitude experiments took place in part also in Rechlin. I said before that in Rechlin was the main testing group of the Luftwaffe, and all the planes were tested there which were being delivered by the industry. Whatever was still in development state was not under the F. L., and I never visited the research factory of the Luftwaffe.
Q Well, but you said that you and Milch agreed that 14,000 meters was high enough altitude to go into in these experiments.
A Yes. We regarded that as a line, borderline, so that the experiments wouldn't go too far but would only have to attain a certain aim, and it was always planned that way.
Q And so far as you know they complied with your wishes in that regard?
A Yes.
Q You spoke about this meeting with Himmler over defense. Do you remember when that took place?
A No, I don't, but I believe it was in 1943. The Field Marshal told me that., He told me that he had availed himself of the opportunity, he had met Himmler in the headquarters to get, also to win him for the defense program of the Luftwaffe, in other words, to have him see his point.
Q His point being to fight a defensive war as opposed to an offensive war?
A Yes.
Q This was in 1943?
A Yes. The idea itself was the reenforcement of the defense power. That idea which came from Milch had already been mentioned before. However, in 1943 the matter became of the utmost urgency, for all the heavy night and daylight raids of the Anglo-Americans over Germany had taken place.
Q In 1943 you were out of Africa, weren't you?
A No, I myself was never in Africa.
Q The German army, the Wehrmacht, they weren't in Africa any more in 1943?
A Well, in 1943, no, they weren't there any longer.
Q Of course, you were still in the Low Countries and in France and Norway?
A Greece.
Q But you weren't advancing any place much, were you?
A No.
Q Now, these experiments that had to do with cold water and air sea rescue, was there anything connected with freezing experiments that you knew about?
A I do not know that because I only heard of these experiments in May, 1945, through the press in one of the Munich papers, and then, of course, through my examination by Americans in Dachau itself. That was in September, 1945.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, you have mentioned the fact, you spoke about the sea rescue planes. In one phase, sea rescue planes in the Luftwaffe were a similar institution as the hospital ships in the navy?
A Yes, absolutely.
Q In such experiments were discussed, in other words, the point of their altitude, in going to sea rescues, were those human experiments or were they only discussing the technical side of the question, which, for us, was the important thing and which we were responsible for.
Q Witness, the question of the flak, ack ack, antiaircraft was discussed several times today. Who was in charge of the flak as a branch of the Luftwaffe, the G. L. or who was it?
A The ack ack was under the Luftgaus as far as it only concerned the hone defense. Apart from that they had a flak course or ack ack course at the front. These flak courses were under the air fleets which fought at the front, and apart from those the army, for its own protection, had its own flak which was called the army flak, or army ack ack.
Q The home flak, Witness, according to your statement, was under the Luftgau. These Luftgaus were they now under the G. L. or Milch respectively?
A No, the Luftgaus were under the Luftfleet of the Reich in Berlin, or Reich Luftfleet shortly before the end of the war. There was another supervision later on. They were never under the G. L. it was a troop, and no troop was under the G. L., but only officers and departments of the ministry and their testing department.
Q The airfleet Reich, was that under the G. L. then?
A No, it was under Goering immediately, just as all the other fleet chiefs.
Q Did the G. L. have anything to do with the flak, with the home flak which had to be set up for the defense of the factories, or who was it ordered that?
A That had been ordered by Hitler himself. In the first order, that was issued by Hitler, I was present.
That was the 4th of November, 1941 at the headquarters in eastern Prussia.
Q It set up the number and the driving. In other words, had nothing to do with the factory?
A No, nothing at all.
Q Of the factories there were home flaks. You mentioned that before, factories that were manned by factory workers?
A Yes.
Q Who were they under, under the factories?
A No, they were also under the Luftgaus.
Q In other words, there was an additional force?
A Yes. They had only a few soldiers, the gunner, the battery leader and their own officers. The others were soldiers or civilians who only worked during alert times and were always present at night. Apart from those there were all the Luftwaffe aids. These were the young pupils.
Q These civilians during the time you were there at the home flak, were they on the same basis as the soldiers?
A Yes.
Q Witness, this morning you spoke about the Jaegerstab meetings. The prosecution asked you who presided during those Jaegerstab meetings when Milch was present. Would you like to repeat your answer?
A The presidency was always in Mr. Sauer's hands. In other words, Mr. Sauer was the president during those meetings.
Q Was that the practical chairmanship or do you mean that Milch was there as an honorary title?
A Yes, he was the chairman, but the meeting was led by Sauer.
Q In other words, do you want so say that, practical chairmanship?
A Yes.
Q Witness, I shall now come back to the speech to the Air Ordnance Quartermaster Generals. The prosecution mentioned to you a number of passages or sentences which were said, that the international law did not play any part and that these foreign laborers should be whipped and similar remarks. You said that you never heard anything about those things. Does that mean that you never heard it or do you mean that you never remembered?
A I cannot remember these words. For instance, the word "whip", I cannot remember that, because had it been used, then I am sure that I would have remembered. I never heard that.
Q Were you constantly present during that particular speech?
A Yes.
Q Witness, you spoke of female Ukranians. Do you know on what sort of planes these women worked?
A Most of the time they worked on transport planes.
Q Witness, another term was used before, that foreigners were employees of the Luftwaffe. Was such a formulation correct?
A No, one cannot say that. They were employees of the firm. By Luftwaffe employees we mean something entirely different, for instance, a clerk in the ministry, but these people are not employees of the Luftwaffe, but only employees or workers of the respective firms to which they were assigned.
Q Now, my last question, witness. We shall come back to that letter. These letters which you signed, did you read them?
A No, one could not do that. For instance, these travel orders, these last travel orders which I mentioned, I just glanced through them, that's all. I had given orders to my adjutant to look through the things in order that there should not be certain travel orders which had been smuggled in there for people who did not need them absolutely, to take them out, and he showed me those travel orders in particular. As far as the rest is concerned, I just signed them without even looking through them, without even reading them, because it was absolutely impossible to go through every travel order and to examine it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: May I ask a question please?
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q You would distinguish, would you not, between a mere formal routine signing and the signing of a rather important communication?
A Yes.
Q So that if there was placed upon your desk a letter of some importance, indicating some policy, you would read it carefully and then sign it. That is true, is it not?
A Yes, I usually carried it out in the following way; that important things were shown to me by the man who was working on it, and I signed them in his presence. The things which were less important were put in certain folders on our table and in the evening I looked through them and signed them. What I mentioned last were those big heaps of travel orders. There it was a routine matter, nothing else.
Q (By Dr. Bergold): Witness, did you look through all those letters in the folders?
A Well, it all depended. In other words, if I was tired on that particular day, then I could not read through everything. I only looked at the letterhead, whom it came from, and then I signed it. We had so much work to do at the time that it was absolutely impossible to read every single letter in itself.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions to put to the witness.
MR. DENNEY: I have one question, Your Honors, which I forgot to put to the witness.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q You have your soldiers' book with you, do you not?
A Yes.
Q And there are some ten commandments for the German soldier just inside on the front page, are there not?
A They are not in my booklet, but I do know them.
Q You are an old soldier. You learned those when you first went in the Army, didn't you?
A Thirty years.
Q Well, tell the Court what those ten commandments are.
A They say the following, approximately: The fight has to be led in the chivalrous way.
The fight is to be fought in uniform. Prisoners who surrender are not to be shot or killed. The Red Cross is to be observed. Neutral territory may not be stopped on or flown over. Prisoners of war are to be treated in a humane way; their belongings belong to them, and they will stay with them and also their ranks and decorations. The fight is not against the civilian population; the civilian population is to be treated well, particularly the honor of the women. No looting must be done. Reprisals may only be carried out on orders of the higher leadership. Requisitioning and confiscations can only be carried out on proper orders and only be paying those people. That's about the contents, generally speaking.
Q Do you know whether or not the SS had similar principles?
A I do not know that. I never had anything to do with the SS.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may escort this witness from the courtroom.
(Witness excused.)
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, I would appreciate it if Mr. Milch could be called to the witness stand.
ERHARD MILCH, the defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: The defendant will raise his right hand repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The defendant repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I do not have to tell you the same thing I tell all the other witnesses; namely, that you should speak slowly and all that. You have heard that several times.
Give your full name.
A Erhard Milch.
Q When and where were you born?
A On 30 March 1892, in Wilhelmshaven.
Q Who were your parents?
1696a
A. My father was a clerk with the Jar Navy, with the Kriegsmarine, and my mother was born Vetter.
Q. What education did you have?
A. I attended the gymnasium in Wilhelmshaven, and then from 1905 on I went to the Joachimsthalsche gymnasium in Berlin.
Q. When did you mat riculate?
A. In February, 1910.
Q. What did you study then?
A. I didn't study, but four days later I went to the First Infantry Artillery Regiment in Koeningsberg in Eastern Prussia, and I joined that regiment as a cadet.
Q. Did you ever receive a personal bonus for saving somebody's life?
A. Yes, in 1907, by the Government Counsellor, von Stralsund.
Q. That was At the time when you were a soldier?
A. No, in 1907. I was still in school then. I was in the third but last class.
Q. Would you now tell us briefly your military training?
A. First of all I was in the Regiment for eight months. Three months out of that I had recruit training, basic training, and then I joined the battery. In the autumn of 1910 I attended the Kaiser maneuver in Eastern Prussia, Oh the 1st of October 1910 I visited the War School in Anklam. After nine months there I passed the officers' examination. Then I returned to my regiment and on the 18th of August through a special order then I became Lieutenant. My licence became two years older. Three years in sequence I trained recruits and in 1913 I went through an additional course for artillery officers in the artillery school in Jueterberg in Berlin, and there I reported for the first time in the airfleet. However, later on I didn't get the permission from my commander.
Q Witness, what political education did you have during your military career and as a young officer?
A When I was an officer, and even when I was at home, the questions were to be true to the Kaiser and fatherland and true to my home country. That was the only political education I ever got. The soldier should not deal with political questions, and he has no right to vote. I never understood anything of politics and I did not know anything about it.
Q Was that the general military training concerning the policy which was usual in Germany?
A Yes, it was usual in Germany, and the Kaiser was the only one who wad our superior commander and he was the only one we were responsible to. All the other political institutions had no connection whatsoever to us, and there were no superiors for us. The education in that direction was stressed by the higher-ups.
Q Witness, we have repeatedly mentioned here -- or, witnesses have repeatedly mentioned --- that you used very strong words, strong expressions. Did you learn those when you were a young soldier?
AAt that time it was used among soldiers -- words were not placed on a golden scale. Everywhere and always we swore a lot; we cursed a lot. However, I can assure you that it was never meant in a bad way or serious way. Our soldiers were very willing in spite of that fact.
There were certain abuses of the disciplinary regulations. The official legal way was, during such abuses, to punish them with arrest. That is, he was put in prison for one, two, three days, and sometimes for several weeks In my regiment, as well as with all other regiments of Eastern Prussia, the young soldier was not afraid of -- as he was very scared of an arrest; because, then, after the first year he could not be promoted to corporal; and, after the second year, could not be promoted to NCO.
I never punished a man with arrest for that very simple reason. However, I told him my opinion about his small incident, and sometimes by using strong words so that it actually worked on him, and so that no repetitions occurred. Otherwise, I would not have been able to protest him from being punished with arrest. That is sufficient.
Q Witness, what were you used for during the first war?
A On the first of August, I became Adjutant of the Second Battalion of the Regiment, and used as such. The Battalion consisted of four batteries and one night ammunition column. Very soon we went up to the front in the East where the Russians had penetrated at several points. My battalion fought in the battle of Gumbinnen on the twentieth of August 1914. Then Tannenberg, Villerstellen and Tisset, etc., etc. In the winter cf 1914-15, we returned to eastern Prussia and we occupied the so-called Angerab position. From that position, in February, 1915, we started the winter campaign, the winter battle; and we ended this winter battle in Poland which, at that time, was Russian territory.
Q Witness, can you give us the whole thing in broader lines? We do not want a war history; we just want the broad outlines...
A Well, we had a position-warfare down there, and the great battles were over. I dad not like it any more in the artillery. It was interesting enough, however, and I availed myself of the first opportunity to join the Air Force. I succeeded in doing so the first of July, 1915; after having received my basic training, I went to the Verdun front in autumn, and stayed there during the battles in 1916.