Well, we shall pass the eleventh meeting until such time as we can get Dr. Bergold the proper copy. We will turn to that at a later time.
Now the next item to which we would like to direct Your Honors' attention is on page 37 of Book A, a Hitler conference, a memorandum by Speer dated 19 August 1942, a record of a conference with the Fuehrer on 10, 11, and 12 August 1942:
"Gauleiter Sauckel promises to make Russian labor available for the fulfillment of the iron and coal program and reports that, if required, he can supply a further million Russian laborers for the German armament industry up to and including October 1942. So far he has already supplied one million for the industry and 700,000 for agriculture. In this connection the Fuehrer states that the problem of providing labor can be solved in all cases and to any extent; he authorizes Gauleiter Sauckel to take all measures required.
"He would agree to any necessary compulsion in the East as well as in the West if this question could not be solved on a voluntary basis."
On the same page just below what has been read is another Fuehrer conference dated 29 September 1942, a memorandum prepared by Speer. The conference was held on September 20, 21, 22, 1942. Still on page 37 of Document Book 3-A which is Prosecution's Exhibit 48-A.
"I pointed out to the Fuehrer that, apart from an insignificant amount of work, no possibility exists of organizing armament production in the concentration camps because the machine tools required are missing; there are no suitable premises. Both these assets would be available in the armament industry if use would be made of them by a second shift.
"The Fuehrer agrees to my proposal that the numerous factories set up outside towns for ARP reasons should release their workers for supplementing the second shift in town factories and should in return be supplied with labor from the concentration camps - also two shifts.
"I pointed out to the Fuehrer the difficulties which I expect to encounter if Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler should be able, as he requests, to exercise authoritative influence over these factories. The Fuehrer, too, does not consider such an influence necessary.
"The Fuehrer, however, agrees that Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler should draw advantages from making his prisoners available; he should get equipment for his division.
"I suggest to give him a share in kind (war equipment) in ratio to the working hours done by his prisoners. A 3-5% share is discussed, the equipment also being calculated according to working hours. The Fuehrer would agree to such a solution.
"The Fuehrer is prepared to order the additional delivery of this equipment and weapons to the SS, according to a list submitted to him."
And then going to the sixteenth meeting of the Central Planning Board which appears in Document Book B, pages 32 to 36.
DR. BERGOLD: I ask the Tribunal to ask the representative of the prosecution to clarify which persons were present during that Fuehrer conference. I can't see that and I would appreciate it very much if I could possibly be told in what way these minutes pertain to the defendant.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor please, so far as I know, we, too, have been unable to find out who was present at this conference, and the first ones mentioned according to Speer's notes are conferences which he had with Hitler.
Speer was a member of the Board. Speer talked to the Fuehrer, and Speer sat with Milch when the Board met. There was one later conference of which we do have a note showing that Milch was present. We offer these for such value as the Court sees fit to give them again to case a light on the whole program.
Turning now to page 32 in Document Book B, the sixteenth meeting that appears in Your Honors' book on page 31 as the eighteenth meeting, that should be the sixteenth. Page 31 which is just a face page. It says "18". It should say "16".
THE PRESIDENT: It has been corrected.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, sir. This was held on the 23rd of October 1942 in the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. We start in the middle of a speech at page 32 by one Fischer. Speer is present and Milch is present.
"For if I lack 68,400 men in the Ruhr mining district alone, and if 140 skilled workers are taken away from me, as happened in the Dutch national mines, although I had definitely enjoined Bruch, do not let any skilled workers be taken away from the pits, and if the Organization Todt and the Wehrmacht simply take my men out of the Campino mines, out of the mines in Belgium, for the airports --" and then Speer interjects, "When did that happen?" The reply: "Last year."
"SPEER: These are the same old stories which we have already heard often enough. That does not do any good now. You will have to bring up something new. Were any of the workers you received through the new drive of Sauckel taken away from you? We must be informed of it.
"FISCHER: That is the case in Holland now. 140 have already been taken away and another 60 are to be taken away."
I call Your Honor's attention to the fact that these men concern themselves with figures that are astronomical and even with numbers like "60".
"SPEER: Who took them away?
"PLEIGER: The Sauckel Labor Commitment.
"SPEER: Where did they go to?
"PLEIGER: To Cologne, Deutz, Humboldt.
"SPEER: What are they doing there?
"PLEIGER: They are supposed to be used in mining there. To this I replied that it was nonsense to take my men away from mining itself.
"SPEER: Today I gave several other like cases to Sauckel and said: if we do not insist on having everyone of these cases referred back to the Labor Office and in this way give them the work to do, we will not bring them to their senses. That is why pressure must be applied here, too, and we shall also order at Sauckel's that these 150 men return to you, man for man, and I should like to ask you to let us know in three to four weeks whether you have received all of them back. We shall make that clear directly ourselves.
"PLEIGER: That is not the only thing. For instance, 420 men in Upper Silesia, too. A transport of Russians started from Nikolojewsk to Rumania. We were simply told that a military order could not be opposed.
"MILCH: All I need is the case with names and documentary evidence."
Milch taking care of the Army situation.
"SPEER: No. But you may include the Eastern workers, after all, so that you do not receive only prisoners of war. Before we take German workers from the sector of the rest of the economy, the planning must first be finished so that one may know what results it will have on industry. I believe, however, that the German workers in mining industry would turn out to be a failure if they would come from the textile industry, for instance, or from elsewhere.
"(Interjection: Quarry men.)"
DR. BERGOLD: My copy here is missing. The Milch statement.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, in the German copy Dr. Bergold has, the original statement of Field Marshal Milch is missing, but here is a photostatic copy of the original which we showed him with the statement in it.
"SPEER: No. But you may include the Eastern workers, after all, so that you do not receive only prisoners of war. Before we take German workers from the sector of the rest of the economy, the planning must first be finished so that one may know what results it will have on industry. I believe, however, that the German workers in mining industry would turn out to be a failure if they would come from the textile industry, for instance, or from elsewhere.
"(Interjection: Quarry men.)
"Yes, it is true that at one time many men went over to the stone industry from the mining industry. Could not a list be made sometime of the workers who used to be in mining industry? Could not a list be made sometime of the workers who used to be in mining industry and who now gad about elsewhere?
"PLEIGER: Such lists can be made only with a total figure only but not itemized. It would already help us if we could get only a few hundred.
"SPEER: From the quarries you can get all of them.
"(Interjection: Only old men are left there.)
Pleiger continues:
"Three-quarters of a year ago I made available all quarrymen for any use the labor commitment might choose. They are still working in Himmler's concentration camp Mauthausen. Pleiger, maybe you can have it established sometime how many men there are in the quarry of Mauthausen.
"PLEIGER: I have already looked them over. I cannot use them for hard coal mining; I cannot work them there. I had made an agreement with Himmler that he would take over one pit but it cannot be done. It is too dangerous with those people. It would have a psychologically negative effect if we would start with prisoners there. Even with civilian prisoners the situation is difficult.
The next meeting is the 17th which appears at A-42 through 45 and B-7 is the facing page, and 8 and 9. Dr. Bergold has pages 42, 43, 44 and 45 of Book A and there are 7,8 and 9 of Book B. Now on Page 44 of Book A, Hildebrand is talking again there, speaking of requirements for the increase of coal production:
"Our promises were made on the basis of the 150,000 prisoners of war whom Field Marshal Keitel had promised us for this purpose. Of these, 60,000 are still missing. Several departments are passing the buck in this matter. General Wagner, the chief of supply, called on me and told me they could not supply them now and wanted time until January. They are now promised for the beginning of December.
"As for the quality of the new incoming transports, apparently a weeding out takes place already in the East. The good workers among the prisoners of war are kept back and only those of inferior quality are passed on so that I cannot estimate the value of these 60,000 as high. I think we shall be able to use hardly 60% in mining.
"There are, furthermore, 15,000 men in the prisoner of war camps in the General Government. They are all right and will come as soon as the 30,000 have been expedited. Gauleiter Sauckel promised Mr. Pleigel for the coal industry, 10,000 civilian Russians who would be freed by redirections of labor in agriculture. This was discussed yesterday with Dr. Fischer. Their 10,000 men, we think, will be at the disposal of the coal industry in about a fortnight. The total will, therefore, be 115,000. We have, however, to allow for certain reductions according to the physical conditions of the men.
"The recruiting of suitable civilian workers over there is very much hampered because we were repeatedly told that our recruiting personnel should give up the whole department Staline or the DonDonetz area because the men there were all needed. Then a small number of workers from the East would remain" -- Is that as far as your book goes, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, sir. One page is missing, 1234.
MR. DENNEY: We don't have 1234 in it. We have 1232, 1233 and 1235.
174 a However, we shall leave that out at this time and direct the Court's attention to Page 42 and 43 which is a summary of the results of the 17th meeting of the Central Planning prepared on the 30 October 1942, on the meeting of the 28th; and the distribution which appears on Page 43, the second name which appears is Generalfieldmarshall Milch.
And then turning to that part of the 17th meeting which appears in Document Book B at page 9, which is another part of the stenographic transcript of these minutes. On page 1265 of the German original, I believe, a man named Winkhaus, W-I-N-K-H-A-U-S, speaking at the top of the page -- It should be on page 9, on page 111 of the German transcript, I am told, a man named Winkhaus, speaking at the top:
"The issue at stake here is not in our dealings with labor offices and building contractors, but rather we touch with our feeder industry many districts, where there is no mining industry and in such places it has not become known yet that the mining industry is an essential part of the armament industry. This should, on some occasion, be brought to the attention of all competent offices." And then Speer goes on to say:
"I am doing that any way. The Central Planning is issuing equal worded directives to all armament inspections, regional labor and economy offices which say in effect: the shoe pinches mostly here at the time and now especially in the mining industry."
The next meeting is the 21st Meeting. It appears at Pages 45 through 47 of the Book A and pages 23 to 27 of Book B. Directing our attention for the moment to the section in Book B which starts on page 23, Your Honors can see from the entry on Page 47 of Book A that General Field Marshall Milch is listed as having been present at the meeting which was held on 30 October 1942, at the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. It's on Page 125 of the German Translation. Sauckel is speaking:
"There is but one possibility, and that is that the moment the Wehrmacht takes prisoners in operational territory, they are to be immediately turned over to us.
We will move them away much faster then the Wehrmacht." Here, of 175 a course, Sauckel is making an improper proposal -- the taking over of all prisoners of war by his Plenipotentiary General for Labor -something that clearly violates the laws of war.
"Milch: The correct thing to do would be to have all Stalags transferred to you by order of the Fuehrer. The Wehrmacht takes prisoners and as soon as it relinquishes them, the first delivery goes to your organization. Then everything will be in order.
"Sauckel: Yes, but we do not have sufficient personnel for guarding the prisoners.
"Milch: The Wehrmacht should have to provide you with that."
Then Sauckel continues: "As soon as prisoners of war are taken, they should be placed at our disposal and we would then allocate them in a fair manner. However, with the present method, we are getting nothing or only a fraction of what the Wehrmacht had promised us, although the prisoners had been taken by the Wehrmacht.
"Timm: We can hardly hope to achieve that, since this might have something to do with the agreement concerning the treatment of prisoners of war." That has to be mentioned by a civilian. The Field Marshal is sitting there and doesn't call it to anyone's attention.
"Milch: The man who acts there for you can wear a uniform all right and be a soldier. Only his superior will not be Herr Reinecke, General Reinecke in charge of prisoners of war of the Oberkommando Wehrmacht, but Herr Sauckel.
"For psychological reasons, emphasis should be placed on first of all covering the requirements of the Wehrmacht branches without other considerations. The feeling -- we don't get it anyway -- has gradually permeated our whole air force industry, and I heard the same about the Army. I will admit that these gigantic allocations are completely misjudged. For example in the Luftwaffe where from an original allocation of 480,000 a balance of 150,000 was left over.
The plants always look at the balance. However, there are many plants also who have suffered an actual decrease in manpower, especially 176a in a young industry like ours, which is occupied with the manufacture of very special products.
This industry has many young people, of whom many again have been drafted into the Wehrmacht. This drafting is done in such an idiotic way, that one actually has to feel ashamed -- all three experimenting engineers working on a development which may have an important bearing on the outcome of the war are simply drafted.
They are not sent to the front or into training but sit around in the back somewhere and are guarding some camp. No consideration whatsoever is given to individual cases. Of course, the plants then call for replacements. The masses cannot fill these breaches and qualified replacements we cannot supply at all. Herr Dr. Werner, for example, writes a letter to Herr Schieber of which he forwards a copy to me and which states that production figures established in the delivery schedules can no longer be met owing to the fact that for weeks, partially even for months, no manpower has been allocated and that even current withdrawals cannot be replaced by the labor offices. The fact that we can no longer meet the demands of the rising production, the backlogs are increasing more and more, fills him with rising apprehension.
He then goes into details, but always reverts to the same conclusion; everything might be accomplished, we could even get the necessary material; in the final analysis we fail, however, in one important aspect in connection with our whole armament program, the allocation of manpower. If only we had - if only we had, thus it goes all day and in every conference.
I am convinced that many people are beginning to put in fake requests and exaggerate their requirements. There is only one way to straighten out this affair. In my department I do it this way; (and what is Milch's Department; the Luftwaffe). If for months a spare part cannot be found, the entire front begins to heard this article, say, for instance the tail skid of a JU 52. Then we proceeded to manufacture triple the amount of the expected requirements, yet, no tail skeds were available. Ordinance stock piles were filled with it, but they did not issue any. I then said: "We will now manufacture nothing but tail skids until we hear shouts not to send any more." Thus, an affair like that gets finally straightened out. And here likewise we must say for once, we will supply the required laborers to the industry, if necessary by depriving other fields. Agriculture at the moment can spare laborers; it does not need them from 15 November to 15 March of next year. It is just a waste to have to feed them. Only a small number will be needed for the procurement of wood. Thus we are able to generously help industry, and later on again replenish agriculture. At the same time we have the advantage of getting fairly well fed people.
As Herr Timm recently explained, prisoners of war from the Ukraine would not serve our purpose. They could not regain their physical strength on what they get to eat in the industry.
Even supplying them with better food then we give to our own people would not be sufficient to get them beyond a still weakened condition. In agriculture they get additional food. Don't muzzle the mouth of a beast when food lies all around it. This is also of advantage to prisoners of war, and workers from the East.
However, we have to finally do away with the general feeling. We have 178a nothing and we want yet anything.
We have been forsaken by God and the Fuehrer constantly more and more is demanded of us; how can we still believe in this great program? We can only carry it out if we have such faith in it, as is spoken of in the Bible.
In January we started with a monthly production of 2,000 meters; today we have reached 4,000, and in a year and a half I must reach 14,000. That, of course, is a gigantic achievement for a month. Every motor has at least 1,200 h.p. If in measurements of horse power I compare the present with the former world-war, then the present achievement is forty times as great. What an immense amount of manpower was then available at that time for an industry so totaly different from ours.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, the court will recess for five minutes. I believe I told you we are to adjourn at 3:30.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, during the recess we were able to find the page 1059 in German and showed it to Dr. Bergold, and he is willing that we continue with the reading of Field Marshal Milch's remarks made at the 21st meeting. We continue with your Honors' Document Book, page 26 of Book B.
"What an immense amount of manpower was available at that time for an industry so totally different from ours. Yet today we must come up to more than three times that, which we have already done. That means, that in airplane motors alone we have to achieve 135 to 140 times as much as we did in the world war. Dr. Werner, who is responsible for the motor industry proposed how this can be done. He said: We must apply a mass production scale everywhere, or else we will not accomplish it. He has very progressive ideas in this field. With the airplane motor it can be done for sure. Crank-shafts and connecting rods, etc., we can produce on a mass production scale. Today we manufacture 40,000 connecting rods. However, we still have no machines today that assemble these products individually on the assembly line. The Americans have such machines. We are lacking about 10 construction engineers and 5 mechanics; they just simply cannot be procured. One must for once satisfy the needs of the people again. I have always put them off until November and told them, that Sauckel would produce the necessary labor from agriculture."
And, as I pointed out to the Court before, the parts on pages 46 and 47 of the Book A are the results prepared by one, Dr. Stettler, and I don't think they need to be mentioned at this time. It is worthy of note that the defendant indicates on page 1058 that the only reason he turned down prisoners of war was because they weren't fit.
The next meeting is the 22nd which appears in part on pages 28, 29 and 30, Document Book B, and there is also an excerpt on page of Document Book A. The defendant was present at this meeting.
At the excerpt from this 22nd meeting which was held on 2 November 1942, which appears on page 30, Document Book A, the defendant speaking:
"Milch: I believe that agriculture must get its labor quota. Assuming that we could have given agriculture 100,000 more men we would new have 100,000 more men who would be more or less well fed, while actually the human material which we received generally, above all the prisoners of war are not in good enough condition for work."
THE PRESIDENT: What page are you reading from Mr. Denney? You said 30, but I don't find it on that page.
MR. DENNEY: It should be on page 30 of Document Book A, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Wrong book.
MR. DENNEY: Short excerpt appearing at the top. I believe that is only half a page in your Honors' book.
Then on page 29, Document Book B, Speer starts, on page 129 of the German.
"We agreed at the last meeting how the 500,000 workers who are necessary for the armament Industry and the industrial War Economy are to be apportioned but would like to have Thimm estimate how the 100,000 workers, who would remain, are to be apportioned.
"Sauckel: The balance has however become considerably worse. For a present possibility of making 600,000 workers available in November, there is an estimated inquiry for 732,000, including the demands for mining, pitprops, coal trade, transportation, Reich Railway, Reich Mails, forestry, fireproof industry, agricultural machinery, merchant shipbuilding, machinery for provisions, inland navigation, women helpers for aviation reports, war production program, requirement for repairs of bombing damages.
"Speer: Are our 500,000 included?
"Sauckel: (continued) There are included 481,800 and namely urgent 441,000 - basic industry with assignments 124,000, halffinished products 16,000, delivery 48,000, tool industry subdivided army 50,000, air 40,000 with the addition of 30,000 called up. Haven't the callings up been taken with consideration by the plants?
"Brueckner: No, they are not included.
"Sauckel continues: Generally the number called up is not higher than usual, about 100,000.
"Milch: We must make up for not having called up sooner. (add the drawings in) "Sauckel continues:
Navy further 32,000, other requirements 45,000, construction 75,000, total 441,000.
The red ticket drives are included with 72,000. Should we however use up the 72,000 red tickets, then we must employ as many additional workers who should be taken into account, that we should like to suggest another procedure. Should we allot you 100 percent, thus altogether with the red ticket men supplied with an addition and then those called up, the normal fluctuation and so forth, then you arrive exactly at the same result. We evade the powerful bureaucracy which is connected with it when we fill out 70,000 rod tickets, advise and must mail and then wait again in order to register them, sort out, and so forth. We have very few people available in our offices.
"Schieber: The 70,000 red tickets will be divided among 5 to 6 thousand firms.
"Thimm: There will probably be many more firms. At Schrott there are for instance plants with 6 to 7 peoples. It indicates naturally a tidy bureaucratic expanse, when one has to send and return forms for these few people.
"Speer: It can be done in such a way that we give the red tickets direct to the plants and the plants inform us when they have received the people."
I direct the Court's attention to the fact that these men were even concerned with plants that employed only six or seven people.
The next meeting is the 23rd which appears in Book B at pages 5 and 6 and also Book A at page 30 -- no -- I withdraw that. That's been taken out, your Honors. That was the bottom half of page 30 and it has been removed because it is all set forth in pages 4 and 5 of Document Bock B. This is the 23rd conference and a partial extract of the stenographic minutes dated 3 November, 1942. Pleiger is speaking at the start, top of page 5, Look B.
"For the physical strain on the miners, who practically work two Sunday shifts each month, is such, that they could not stand it for another six months. In other words -- this is the important point -- the still lacking workers quota of 95,600 men must be assigned to work now at last, which was promised to me at one time. The gentlemen of the Ruhr tell me: we have our huts ready. Some of them are not completely furnished, and I reproached the people for it. They answered however: but you promised us workers for about half a year. We have always been ahead with our huts. How can you reproach us now, our huts were not ready. The workers assigned to us will be taken care of. I would be very thankful, if Sauckel would be induced to assign to us the quota of workers.
"Speer: He received the instruction in the last session of the Central Planning to assign workers first of all to the coal mining industry as well as to the iron producing industry, for you the amount of 44,000 plus 12,000 plus 7,500 for the feeder industry plus 5,000 for pit props. The same holds true fer Mr. Rohland.
"Pleiger: In our conferences it must always be taken as a basis, that the Reichsbahn with regard to the allocation of wagons is at least in the same position as they were last year.